Gamesmanship in the GAA

CyberDave

Firstly, I am not branding all players with the same brush. But there were three examples of it from last weekends action.

Padraic Clancy obviously flung himself to the ground as if struck by lightning after Dan Gordon brushed against him in the Laois/Down match in Portlaoise.

Brian Ropers obvious dive in the Donegal/Monaghan match.

Finally, Brian Dooher setting up the two players that were sent off in the Tyrone/Westmeath match. Both Westmeath players deserved to go, but what I thought was evident is Doohers continious winding up of his opponent. He was involved in three seperate incidents. The two sendings off and then the earlier scuffle over on the stand sideline with Damien Healy which earned them both yellow cards. Remember last year as well when Colm McFadden (Donegal) punched Dooher? Dooher obviously hadn't congratulated him on winning the free.

The three players I have mentioned are all excellent footballers in own right. Dooher has the medals to proove it. But watching their Ronaldo-esque gamesmanship during the weekend, I was disgusted. I always thought football was a game played by hard but fair men.

What do people think?

Pride Fighter

Its a disgrace, they watch too much soccer IMO.

cruiserweight

I don't like to see diving. One of my pet hates is seeing a defender reaching to to slap at the ball, the defender grabbing his arm and dragging them both down and the referee giving a free to the attacker

Mushy

cruiserweight wrote: »

I don't like to see diving. One of my pet hates is seeing a defender reaching to to slap at the ball, the defender grabbing his arm and dragging them both down and the referee giving a free to the attacker

I hate when that happens. I play defence myself, and it always happens, even when I know its happening, I move one hand away, showing the attacker to be preventing any possible tackle, but still given against me. One of the most infuriating things playing the game.

Flukey

Sadly it is creeping into the game. They should get up and get on with the game like men. They'll often do much better out of it that way.

john concannon

The game really is getting easier for a small corner forward like myself.

cruiserweight

I saw this interesting article about hurling rules on another forum

http://www.uibhfhaili.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1764

(I don't normally put my paper pieces up here any more for obvious reasons, but I'm working on this bit and I'd like to throw it out there for debate as well as to get a bit of feedback on it. I stopped hurling at around 15 years of age due to ineptitude and as such I sometimes miss some of the subtleties of the game that others pick up on. This is my reading of matters, but others may have a more nuanced and experienced view....)

In so many ways, last Sunday's defeat to Kilkenny was a sign of how much Offaly had lost touch with the continuing evolution of hurling. Kilkenny, managed by a man who was one of the losing finalists in that famous Leinster final of 1980, took the field with a powerful and accomplished team of hurlers and blew Offaly away with a combination of efficient use of the sliothar and physical dominance all over the field. Brian Cody has long understood the importance of fielding and power in the game of modern hurling, with the prerequisite that the player had all the basics of the game already mastered.

Brian Hogan, Sunday's RTE man of the match, is in so many ways the perfect Brian Cody hurler. He holds his ground, he eats puckouts all day long and his ability to hurl off either side and his excellent vision means that when he gets the sliothar into his hand, he invariably delivers it to the advantage of a team mate.

For too long Offaly hurling trainers and players have stayed true to the old mantras of “letting the ball do the work” and ground hurling, at least until 2005 when the 31 point beating in Croke Park opened a few eyes about how unsuited to the modern game that style is. Next Wednesday Offaly will continue their Leinster under 21 campaign in Birr against Wexford and it's notable that this panel, by far the county's best chance of a Leinster title for many years, is much more adept at the aeriel power based hurling style which is now espoused by all successful teams. Derek Morkan, Brian Leonard, Diarmuid Horan and Joe Bergin are all examples of players who can marry traditional hurling skills with the fielding skills that are now crucial, while players like Derek Molloy and Conor Mahon play in a style that would not have seen them get close to a county panel twenty years ago but they nonetheless will be of vital importance next Wednesday.

However in exploring how this change in the game came about, there is a real case for saying that it is the lack of enforcement of many of hurling's rules that has handed so much advantage to the team in possession, to the point where possession has become nine tenths of the law in hurling terms as well as in general life. The rules in question have not changed in recent years and taken one by one, their transgression does not make a huge difference when they are applied equally to both sides. It is on looking at the composite effect that it becomes clear why a hurler who is very adept at winning 50/50 ball is nowadays much more valuable than one who is unable to do this but has all the other skills of the game.

Firstly, we look at the most significant offence not being whistled – charging. Historically, when a defender or attacker caught the ball, they did so under pressure and then turned away from their marker, using the four steps allowed to get some space before playing the ball, more often than not running towards their own goal. The resultant strike was then invariably played blind with little control. This also meant that the old fashioned skill of overhead pulling was prevalent as a good overhead connection was as likely to hit the ball in the right direction as a ball that had been caught and then hurled. A player like Brian Whelahan who could hit the ball exactly where he wanted it to go despite being under pressure and running the wrong way became an invaluable asset in this environment.

Nowadays however the game has changed – instead of the fielding player using his four steps to move away from his marker, he uses the first two to barge into him, knocking him back. He then takes one step to the side himself and can now look down the field to see exactly where he wants it to go before hitting the ball on his front foot. Brian Hogan, or indeed most modern half backs like Ken McGrath, Seán Óg Ó'hAilpín or Eamonn Corcoran are perfect exponents of this new style which rarely if ever gets whistled. Because the initial contact looks like a “clash” of two people moving into each other while there isn't any momentum built up, the ref lets it go and the player gets the ball cleared. The clearance goes 90 yards towards the target full forward instead of the usual 40 or 50 over the shoulder to no-one in particular and the catching player's advantage is more than doubled. This barging also plays into the hands of running forwards who often charge into the defender, another offence that doesn't get called. Kevin Broderick gets lauded for his pace yet a large part of his game is based on getting away with this.

The second foul being whistled intermittently rather than consistently is the throwing of the sliothar instead of the legal handpass and it follows on from the previous point. The catching player barges, but if the marker does not get bumped far enough back, modern fitness dictates that within a couple of seconds the player in possession will be swallowed up by three or four opponents. What is happening nowadays is that the player in possession uses this “cover” to throw the ball out of the crowd and this is being let go by referees. Several players, particularly in Cork where the running game is so prevalent, have developed a handpass where it is so close to being illegal that the ref has no choice but to let it go or he would be whistling for it all day and receive untold abuse in the media for "not letting the game flow". While technically it's a legal handpass once it goes so much as a half an inch out of the hand before being struck, so many of the modern handpasses as so imperceptible to the modern eye that referees forgive all but the most blatant – furthering the advantage to the team in possession.

Our third foul is the next resort of the charging player when bottled up – lying on the sliothar. In theory this is a free against the offender – but the surprise when Brian Gavin correctly gave this decision against Dónal Óg Cusack in last year's drawn All Ireland quarter final shows just how unused to seeing this we are. This is another get out clause for the team in possession and another blow to ground hurling as it means that players lie on the ball rather than dropping it to be played along the ground.

Finally, there is one last sly trick of the running player – the throw ahead of himself. Check out the replays of last Sunday's game and look at the first goal, where Shefflin flings the ball some five feet ahead of himself in order to give himself room, then scoops it up without breaking stride, thus securing the space he needs. In theory the player is attempting to put the ball onto his stick for a solo run, but of course if he has his opponent beaten for pace or turning, the careless fling is just as useful and easier to execute. If a player as good as Shefflin really wanted to put the ball on his hurl, he would. The fact that he did not break stride shows that the sliothar was exactly where he expected it to be. The O'Connor twins in Cork, Eoin Kelly in Tipperary and Barry Whelahan of Birr are other exponents of this trick, which is also – as long as the ball hits the ground before hitting the hurl – a foul.

No referee goes out to deliberately ignore the rule book, but much like classroom Irish and spoken Irish having subtle differences on occasion, rulebook hurling and real hurling are two slightly different games and it is the imbalance in favour of the team in possession that has led to the modern game becoming so different to what Offaly players have been indoctrinated with for so long. Trainers and players have no choice but to adapt to the game as it is played and certainly the fervent hope is that we begin to see this in Offaly at adult level very soon, but in the mean time referees would do well to remember the rule book as it is written, rather than as people have come to perceive it.

blackbelt

As a referee,I really don't see diving and play acting coming in at club level here in Dublin.Mind you,I referee Adult junior and minor level football and hurling.Not sure where it is coming in but I would hazard a guess that it is certain individuals that use these tactics which start to creep into the rest of the team and the strategy.

When I do see a player dive (rarely),there is no question over the outcome....the yellow card comes out to play and that problem is weeded out of that particular match very quickly.

megadodge

Sadly it is creeping into the game. They should get up and get on with the game like men. They'll often do much better out of it that way.

Unfortunately, it crept in a long time ago.

Pat Spillane was the first exponent of the dive in Gaelic football as witnessed by his miraculous recovery (mentioned in Micheal O'Heihir's commentary) in the 1980 All-Ireland final. He had been at it for a long time before that though.

In the 1993 AIF, Dermot Heaney got Tony Davis sent off for what transpired afterwards (on slow-motion analysis) wasn't even a free ! But Heaney went down holding his face and got one of the game's gentlemen sent off for nothing.

In the 1993 Connacht final, the Mayo goalie received an innocuous challenge and went down like he was shot. The camera zoomed in and we got a very good close up of him holding his face. When he thought it was time to 'surface' he looked up, but as he was about to arise two pairs of Mayo hands pushed him down again !! The Roscommon player was ridiculously sent off.

In the 2003 AIF Armagh's Diarmuid Marsden was shoved on his way back to goal, off the ball, he shoved his opponent back and watched as he fell to the ground holding his face. Needless to say Marsden got sent off.

There are numerous more pathetic pieces of cheating that have occured over the last 15 or so years, but for pure consistency the O'Rourke family from Armagh have to be the worst. Cathal taught them well.

It's high time the powers-that-be looked at this issue and clamped down hard on this CHEATING. If all refs took Blackbelt's aproach it would be cut out fairly fast.

cruiserweight

Can posters please keep it civil. The charter has been updated in light of some goings on in the Paul Galvin thread.

jackbhoy

CyberDave wrote: »

Finally, Brian Dooher setting up the two players that were sent off in the Tyrone/Westmeath match......

What annoyed me more than this, and which wasn't shown on TV, was McMenmin sprinting 30 yards to stand over an injured Denis Glennon and roar abuse in his face, even more disappointingly he did it to cheers of good section of home crowd. It sickens me to see the game descend to this level, Westmeath players and supporters showed respect by applauding injured players (Kavanagh brothers) as they were carried off (as any decent gaa supporter would), would've been nice to see some attempt at reciprocation, as opposed to the vitriol we got.

baztard

Its a case of 'Win at all cost'. These divers have no shame. I'd love to see some after match bannings for diving based on tv evidence. A few high profile bannings would stomp out diving in the sport very quickly.

Mr. Incognito

I saw this interesting article about hurling rules on another forum

Great article but what has it got to do with this thread exactly.

I'd agree Dooher had the first player sen off but the second one was a punch and your man was stupid to do that imo, I wouldn't say that was Dooher getting him sent off- he choose to throw a punch and got caught doing it - tough.

It's part of the game unfortunately, how are you going to stamp it out- who knows- even in soccer a realatively non contact sport it's common- in gaa with allows hefty tackling- it's a mystery.

DDC1990

SetantaL wrote: »

Great article but what has it got to do with this thread exactly.

I'd agree Dooher had the first player sen off but the second one was a punch and your man was stupid to do that imo, I wouldn't say that was Dooher getting him sent off- he choose to throw a punch and got caught doing it - tough.

It's part of the game unfortunately, how are you going to stamp it out- who knows- even in soccer a realatively non contact sport it's common- in gaa with allows hefty tackling- it's a mystery.

Well Dooher threw the knee into him, and obviously exchanged verbals with him. Out of all these players Dooher is the worst, as he'll hit you in the ribs and as soon as you react he's down on the ground! And if thats not bad enough he'll pop up, take the next ball and curl over a brilliant point from 45m out, which makes you think why he has to play act around the place getting people sent off, because if he didnt he'd be regarded as a great footballer by all counties! You know?

cruiserweight

SetantaL wrote: »

Great article but what has it got to do with this thread exactly.

I would consider gamesmanship to be the use of dubious or illegal methods to win a game. The article I posted points out a number of techniques that are creeping into the modern hurling game that are close to or are breaking the rules, that a number of teams seem to be employing.

news for you

A lot of spurious stuff has been written about the Westmeath sendings-off in this topic. I think anyone who hasn't seen the game/highlights will have a misleading idea about what happened. I think Dooher's a victim of his reputation in this case.

EOB32

Mushy wrote: »

I hate when that happens. I play defence myself, and it always happens, even when I know its happening, I move one hand away, showing the attacker to be preventing any possible tackle, but still given against me. One of the most infuriating things playing the game.

100% agree. Referees never ever spot it happeneing and it's compounded if you're given a tick or a card. Why can't refs see it? :mad:

CyberDave

news for you wrote: »

I think Dooher's a victim of his reputation in this case.

SetantaL wrote: »

I'd agree Dooher had the first player sen off but the second one was a punch and your man was stupid to do that imo, I wouldn't say that was Dooher getting him sent off- he choose to throw a punch and got caught doing it - tough.

I had formed my opinion on Dooher before I read any paper. He is one of those clever players who is a lot better at giving digs than taking them. For a player to punch you in the stomach it would have to have been something serious that preceeded it. Dooher has mastered the art of wind up. Two out of the three incidents were off the ball, apart from Healys second booking, in which frustration could have been a factor. Obviously it was verbals between Dooher and the victims and is it not a co-incidence that Dooher was involved in all three?

news for you

First red-card: Standard clumsy tackle

Second: All I can comment on is what I saw on TV - Dooher walking away while Doran Harte appeared to be talking to him, Dooher didn't look at him, and then Harte gave him a dig in the stomach.

Dooher takes as much as he gives out...if you know what I mean. I wasn't at the game, so I can only comment on what I've seen - but this is the same for most of you I'd imagine! Maybe it isn't a co-incidence that he was involved in the incidents; he does get stuck-in. I'd imagine most people, if they're honest, would like to have him on their team.

Rizzla King

It's not that disgraceful,if you are being tackled while you are tearing down on goal,defenders these days can play dirty without the ref seeing. I see it as a just desserts half the time. If you get caught you get hailed by fans,if you get a penalty you're a hero.Its football

homerjay2005

rte panel now on the radio are discussing the kerry v monaghan game. there 2 key points -

1 - monaghan fans should be ashamed of themselves, booing kerry players taking frees. its not nice and it should not happen in GAA.

2 - that the game was free of gamemansship and played at an honest, hard and fair tempo. some real tough hits, but it was a mans game.

DDC1990

I was sitting in a group of Monaghan fans, and they were fine, but the rest of the stadium seemed to be booing! Really poor form, especially for the penalty. It showed that they are not football fans, just following the Monaghan bandwagon, because any true football fan would have respect for all the players out there, especially one of the finest footballers to grace Croke Park Colm Cooper.

tracto

homerjay2005 wrote: »

rte panel now on the radio are discussing the kerry v monaghan game. there 2 key points -

1 - monaghan fans should be ashamed of themselves, booing kerry players taking frees. its not nice and it should not happen in GAA.

2 - that the game was free of gamemansship and played at an honest, hard and fair tempo. some real tough hits, but it was a mans game.

EVERY county has groups of fans that boo opposition kickers. If Kerry actually had any support at the game on sunday you would have been able to hear them booing as well.

With regards to diving it really is very easy to get away with it as there is such a fine line between what is a hard, fair tackle and a foul. As a team Tyrone really brought diving to a whole new level when they won the all ireland back in '03. For a team of big strong lads they all went down very easily.

CyberDave

news for you wrote: »

First red-card: Standard clumsy tackle

Second: All I can comment on is what I saw on TV - Dooher walking away while Doran Harte appeared to be talking to him, Dooher didn't look at him, and then Harte gave him a dig in the stomach.

Dooher takes as much as he gives out...if you know what I mean. I wasn't at the game, so I can only comment on what I've seen - but this is the same for most of you I'd imagine! Maybe it isn't a co-incidence that he was involved in the incidents; he does get stuck-in. I'd imagine most people, if they're honest, would like to have him on their team.

All, I'm saying is that it is a co-incidence that Dooher was involved in all three. You don't see everything on the TV, and certainly can't hear everthing that goes on on the pitch.

blackbelt

DDC1990 wrote: »

I was sitting in a group of Monaghan fans, and they were fine, but the rest of the stadium seemed to be booing! Really poor form, especially for the penalty. It showed that they are not football fans, just following the Monaghan bandwagon, because any true football fan would have respect for all the players out there, especially one of the finest footballers to grace Croke Park Colm Cooper.

This really goes along the lines of the "booing at games" thread.
I saw the penalty decision first hand and I saw it later on the Sunday Game from the different angles.I can safely say that there is no doubt in my mind that it should not have been a penalty.That is why the Monaghan fans were giving out and booing and I can't blame them.What if Donaghy hadn't scored the goal and Gooch converted the penalty to make the difference??...that particular decision could have ended Monaghans season right there.

Thank God Gooch missed it and Kerry actually won fair and square through their ability and not through a dubious penalty decision.Not that I was rooting for Kerry but I prefer to see games won and lost without question or doubt.

DDC1990

blackbelt wrote: »

This really goes along the lines of the "booing at games" thread.
I saw the penalty decision first hand and I saw it later on the Sunday Game from the different angles.I can safely say that there is no doubt in my mind that it should not have been a penalty.That is why the Monaghan fans were giving out and booing and I can't blame them.What if Donaghy hadn't scored the goal and Gooch converted the penalty to make the difference??...that particular decision could have ended Monaghans season right there.

Thank God Gooch missed it and Kerry actually won fair and square through their ability and not through a dubious penalty decision.Not that I was rooting for Kerry but I prefer to see games won and lost without question or doubt.

Ah come off it, the Monaghan defender Grabbed Donnacha Walsh by the shorts so that he couldn't get through, then he used his legs to trip him up. Not a penalty my @rse!
And what about the Donaghy incident after 2 minutes? I suppose there was nothing wrong with shoving your elbow into a guy's throat? I have to say i thought the Ref had a good game, only missing the Donaghy penalty incident and a shirt pull on Tommy Freeman in the second half.
On topic though, they booed some clear free's to Kerry so you can't say that they had good reason for booing! i am a passionate Kerry fan but would never boo an opposition player "EVER" no matter the reason for the free! And 99% of Kerry fans would go along with this!

Edit: Here is a pic of the Penalty http://www.sportsfile.com/id/314470/5000/ (Note the hand on Shorts!)
And here is some great sportsmanship: http://www.sportsfile.com/id/314471/5000/
In all fairness Dessies brother J.P did save the families reputation late in the game, when Donaghy went down with cramp and J.P helped him stretch it out. Fair play to him on that point!

Slicklink

I suppose slowing the game down/the whole Kerry team going down with cramp in the final minutes was sporting also. There were plenty of off the ball incidents in that game (mainly involving Kerry's Aidan O mahony-refer to sportsfile for those photos).

By the way Cooper himself is no angel himself . I'm sure he won’t be cited for that!

At the end of the day, Kerry scraped it. But that’s what good teams do, grind it out. I do wonder what would have happened had Ciaran Hanratty put that goal opportunity away. He certainly skinned Padraig Reidy throughout the game (infact in my opinion Reidy was a player that I thought might end up on the wrong side of a red card through consistent fouling of Hanratty).

Anyway its all up to Kerry to go out and show what great champions they are (they havent done it so far this year). Following Tommy Walsh’s performance might point them in the right direction.

Perhaps their fans might also come up and support them - it was shameful that on a bank holiday weekend, true gaa fans cant give their county the support they deserve - probably the same fans that come on lambasting other fans for booing etc, there is only one way your team will hear your support, and that’s by being there to cheer them on. Again I'll say it, Shameful.

Donaghay made quite an open appeal when interviewed! Its also a topic of discussion over at the Kerry forum as well.

On the form guide, I suspect that Sam heads elsewhere this year. Perhaps then the Kerry fans will return to support their team and not just at final stage.

blackbelt

DDC1990 wrote: »

Ah come off it, the Monaghan defender Grabbed Donnacha Walsh by the shorts so that he couldn't get through, then he used his legs to trip him up. Not a penalty my @rse!
And what about the Donaghy incident after 2 minutes? I suppose there was nothing wrong with shoving your elbow into a guy's throat? I have to say i thought the Ref had a good game, only missing the Donaghy penalty incident and a shirt pull on Tommy Freeman in the second half.
On topic though, they booed some clear free's to Kerry so you can't say that they had good reason for booing! i am a passionate Kerry fan but would never boo an opposition player "EVER" no matter the reason for the free! And 99% of Kerry fans would go along with this!
Edit: Here is a pic of the Penalty http://www.sportsfile.com/id/314470/5000/ (Note the hand on Shorts!)
And here is some great sportsmanship: http://www.sportsfile.com/id/314471/5000/
In all fairness Dessies brother J.P did save the families reputation late in the game, when Donaghy went down with cramp and J.P helped him stretch it out. Fair play to him on that point!

Used his legs to trip him up??..whatever about the hand on the shorts which wasn't aggressive,Donnacha Walsh fell over the Monaghan player rather than be tripped...it is as plain as day as far as I'm concerned and that is coming from a neutral.Also,please refrain from using your posterior to refute opinions thank you.:)

What about the Donaghy incident?Well the Monaghan player got off scot free but in saying this,Donaghy was in the small rectangle and the golden rule in refereeing is "if in doubt,give it out".Not saying what the decision should have been but I thought Maurice Deegan did well to call the decision without hesitating and went by the rule of thumb.Had he called a penalty,he wouldn't be wrong either so there is not too much argument on this issue.I think the Monaghan player could have been booked or more than likely noted and Deegan would have been well within his rights but decided to let it go and let the game progress.

And no,the Monaghan fans were not right to boo the free kicks but they were aggrieved with the penalty decision which I thought was dubious and I couldn't blame them for that particular incident.Also,I find your 99% figure somewhat blown out of proportion and misrepresentative.There is no way that can be calculated or accounted for.:)

WEST

I was at this game as a neutral and I must admit I was supporting Monaghan since they were the underdogs. However 15 minutes into the game I was hoping Kerry were going to teach them a lesson or two. Maybe this game was a once off for the Monaghan supporters but I could not get over the way a large amout of their fans were booing everytime a Kerry player kicked the ball.
Ok every team has a minority of fans that act like this but the game on Saturday was taking the piss. Maybe they had a reason for booing when the soft penility was given but this was not an excuse especially since the Cooper missed the penility. Overall I felt the Ref was decent the he gave no advantage to either team to there was no reason for this.

As for people arguing that the Kerry team were involved in off the ball incidents too, so what. Every team looking to win an All Ireland does this. Anyone arguing this (Slicklink) and anyone who thinks their tearm are all angels (DDC1990) are just comming across as hypocrites.


From what I hear The Tyrone\Westmeath game was just as bad and its depressing to see this creeping into the game. Now if the GAA can only name or shame or even ban these 'fans' who are involved in more serious incidents. A mate of mine from Westmeath said he was godsmack to hear the Tyrone fans giving the ref death treats as he left the pitch at half time. I mean WTF! I just hope the Dubs go and do the business.

DDC1990

WEST wrote: »

As for people arguing that the Kerry team were involved in off the ball incidents too, so what. Every team looking to win an All Ireland does this. Anyone arguing this (Slicklink) and anyone who thinks their tearm are all angels (DDC1990) are just comming across as hypocrites.

Im in no way stating that Kerry are angels. Mahoney got involved in some altercations!, Darragh Ó Sé and Tomás got involved also. And i agree to win the All Ireland , you need some tough lads to win those 40-60 balls that you need!

@blackbelt :Still (after looking at the incident a number of times) think both incidents were penalties, especially the Donaghy incident. He was only in the small rectangle because Mone Clobbered him. Anyway, just my opinion.
And i appologise for the use of my rear end in my arguments, i shall keep it out from now on
And i survayed 100 Kerrymen, and out of that number only one would boo at a match. Facts don't lie! ....

premierstone

DDC1990 wrote: »

And i survayed 100 Kerrymen, and out of that number only one would boo at a match. Facts don't lie! ....

Is that because only one of them would be at the match, unless its an AI of course

DDC1990

premierstone wrote: »

Is that because only one of them would be at the match, unless its an AI of course

Haha top quality post!