Wouldn't Heaven Really be Hell?

Standman

Wasn't sure which forum to put this in but I think as it's a philosophical question it may as well go here!

If heaven, according to Christianity and most other religions as far as I know, is eternal, wouldn't that drive you mad?

I mean, it would probably be Ok for the first couple of hundred years, but what about the first couple of thousand? The first hundred thousand? Then millions of years? Then billions!!?! And if you think that is bad, you still have ETERNITY left over!

A constant, never ending, eternity. I think any eternity would be hell no matter how you spend your time there.

Thoughts?

StormWarrior

I agree that heaven would be hell. Not only for that reason, but others too. Just think, you make it into heaven, but half your friends and relatives are burning in hell the whole time! I couldn't be happy knowing that, nor could I be happy spending eternity with such a monstrous god who would condemn people to an eternity of suffering.

Bryan Habana

Depends on your definition of heaven really. If heaven is a limbo like eternity of nothingness that wouldn't appeal. But whoever said heaven had the same constructs as this life...such as perception of time passing. On the other hand, if heaven had an infinitely long line of beautiful members of the opposite sex queuing up to meet you (or whatever) would that be such a bad thing either?

Sardonicat

From my understanding of Christian teaching, Heaven stands outside of time, at least God does. And Heaven is meant to be being in the presence of God, so you wouldn't have the same experience of time passing. Just one great big happy now, apparently.:D

As sentient beings we are constantly aware of time passing, always thinking ahead or to the past. Whenever we try and grasp the present it slips into the past, so we are always in the process of "becoming" and never just "Being". I think that's the existential take on it.

So, in Heaven, we finally get to just "Be". I think that's the apparent appeal of eternity in religious teaching.

It's a hard sell though, seeing as we are sentient beings and cannot conceive as being anyother way. In fact we can't really grasp anything without some recourse to our senses and applying space and time to things.
So the whole concept of eternity is impossible to truly grasp.

So yeah! You definetly posted this one on the right forum, I think!!!

Bryan Habana

Sardonicat wrote: »

From my understanding of Christian teaching, Heaven stands outside of time, at least God does. And Heaven is meant to be being in the presence of God, so you wouldn't have the same experience of time passing. Just one great big happy now, apparently.:D

As sentient beings we are constantly aware of time passing, always thinking ahead or to the past. Whenever we try and grasp the present it slips into the past, so we are always in the process of "becoming" and never just "Being". I think that's the existential take on it.

So, in Heaven, we finally get to just "Be". I think that's the apparent appeal of eternity in religious teaching.

It's a hard sell though, seeing as we are sentient beings and cannot conceive as being anyother way. In fact we can't really grasp anything without some recourse to our senses and applying space and time to things.
So the whole concept of eternity is impossible to truly grasp.

So yeah! You definetly posted this one on the right forum, I think!!!

Very interesting post Sardonicat...well written. I guess it's always going to be a hard sell for people to invest in the idea of constructs that transcend this life. Especially if you view them in terms of the limitations of our senses. I personally believe in an after-life but I feel the belief can also serve as a strong coping strategy in times of crisis for people in despair. A motive to persevere if you will.

daithiocondun

Most religions would say that heaven is timeless. In otherwords, it exists outside the earthly realm and rules of space and time. Therefore there is no sense of time in heaven. Also, purge your thoughts of Heaven being a cloudland where you walked around as you do now except you have wings!! That's rubbish. In heaven, one's existance does not entail "killing time" at all.

You would have to think of it as a state of bliss where you are CONSTANTLY happy and NEVER unhappy. It is a spiritual existance where we return to God and our divine aspect is indulged and enlightened. The factor of eternity simply means it will never end, but we shall not be aware of time in heaven as time does not exist per se and therefore it shall not be a problem. It is impossible to understand really, but you must realise that time is endless and yet null in heaven...

In any case... I wouldn't worry about it!!!LOL!!!

St_Crispin

as someone has said, time does not need to exist in heaven. Should heaven actually exist it will not be a physical place in this universe. Therefore things like time and space need not apply.

But for future reference, the official catholic doctorine now is not that heaven and hell are places. But rather they are states of existance. Hell is being outside of gods grace. Heaven is being in his presence.

Buy considering what we're talking about it's rather presumptive to assume it's existance.

Standman

Well the problem with the idea that time does not exist in heaven is that if time does not exist then what we are as people, our minds, thoughts, personailties etc., would have to change because they are all based in a world where time exists, and therefore cannot exist outside of that. Taking this into account I cannot imagine how heaven would work that way because how can you have a feeling like bliss, for example, without time? It is impossible because it depends on the existence of time to actually have effect. Also, you cannot have an eternity without time, otherwise it would just be nothing. The idea of a heaven without time is incompatable with the idea of it being an "Eternal Bliss".

Even if time does exist but you merely have no sense of it passing, doesn't this still take away something that makes us what we are i.e. the ability to think? And if you lose the ability to think when you go to heaven, doesn't this mean that the being or spirit or whatever you want to call it isn't really you?

Basically what I am trying to say is that if heaven does exist, it must be a place with the same laws (e.g. time, space,etc.) that we have on earth, otherwise it would require that our personalities or minds would have to change.
If this is the case then I don't really see the point in heaven, because what is the point in eternal bliss if it is not really you who is enjoying it?

To be honest, the concept of heaven seems somewhat badly thought out.

drunkmonkey

Wouldn't Heaven Really be Hell?

The only way heaven could be hell is if you didn't know you were there...

I can live out all my fantasys here on earth, what can heaven give me this word can't?

This world would be hell if I didn't belive that heaven is a place on earth...

I love you Belinda for showing me the light http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQahvFdQVu8

Quote:
"In this world were just beginning
To understand the miracle of living"

kelly1

Standman wrote: »

Wasn't sure which forum to put this in but I think as it's a philosophical question it may as well go here!

If heaven, according to Christianity and most other religions as far as I know, is eternal, wouldn't that drive you mad?

I mean, it would probably be Ok for the first couple of hundred years, but what about the first couple of thousand? The first hundred thousand? Then millions of years? Then billions!!?! And if you think that is bad, you still have ETERNITY left over!

A constant, never ending, eternity. I think any eternity would be hell no matter how you spend your time there.

Thoughts?

As Sardonicat said, in Heaven there is only the "eternal now". No past and no future.

If God is infinitely powerful and loving or rather IS love itself, would it be possible to be bored or unhappy in heaven? We are very limited physically and mentally so we cannot imagine what supreme happiness must be like. Don't listen to anyone who tells you heaven will be hell and that hell is a fun place to be. That's a complete inversion of the truth.

1 Cor 2:9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.

eunified61

No past no future won't that be fun .There is no point to heaven as a concept ( in Christianity) it was badly thought out .

sink

The entire human thought process is based on the past present and future. We learn from what has happened in the past and apply those lessons to the present in order to predict/manipulate the future. It is impossible for linear thinking beings to comprehend an existence without time and any attempt ends up as a juxtaposition and does not hold up under scrutiny. This is why in my view if there is a creator who logically would have to exist out of time and space we as it's constructs could never know it let alone hope to understand it. This is also why atheism or agnosticism are logical and theism is inherently illogical.

sinnerboy

But even in this existence we experience time in an odd way . 3 hours with good pals in town over beers flashes past . The 20mins wait for the bus and 30mins journey home drags .

So if heaven is like an endless p**s up it will seem to pass quickly . This hurts my head .... maybe it's the hangover though

sink

Even if our perception of time passes quickly or slowly it doesn't change the linearity of time itself which is essential for thought as it exists in our universe. Take away the past from which we learn and take away the future which we can manipulate/predict, what is there left to think about? Without thought we do not exist. "Cogito, ergo sum" ("I think, therefore I am"). Without the past and future no thought can occur as thought is dependent on linear time. Therefore we can not exist in 'the presence of god' as logically god has to exist outside of time and without time we do not think and without thought we do not exist.

sinnerboy

Perhaps heavan is the absence of thought ... the "me" that is forever trying to make sense of the world as we know it or think we know it . Free from learning , logic , measurement , limits , extents , planning ........

At 17 I knew so much . At 44 I know so little .

sink

But then isn't that very much the same thing as not existing at all. What would be the difference between that conception of heaven and an atheist conception of death, for all intents and puroposes they would be the same thing - the absence of thought.

sinnerboy

i tend to agree . perhaps for person A , absense of thought - or existence - would be heaven . to me , it seems frightening - like hell .

sink

I don't fear death and I am agnostic. I gain comfort from the knowledge of my position within the universe. The natural universe is the most amazing thing a human could ever comprehend far more astonishing and wondrous to me than any religious supposition. From the subatomic quark to the movement of galaxies and expansion of the Universe to the effects of gravity and the birth of life and origin of species through the beauty of evolution, it is all so incredible and you can examine the physical evidence that supports it all. When a new breakthrough scientific discovery is made I can't imagine anything more exciting.

True fact based knowledge that natural universe is vast and amazing and I am a part of it and have the ability to comprehend and understand it far outstrips the idea of heaven in my book.

sinnerboy

Hmmm .... fact based knowledge . Dictionaries used to define the atom as something along the lines of "as the smallest particle of a substance possible" .
Human knowledge has expanded now .

But not every human knows of this . Most humans don't know most things . As i say i find the more knowledge i gain the more voids in my knowledge open up .

Perhaps freedom from this human experience is heaven .... maybe it is hell

santing

The westminster confessions says that man is made to worship and serve God. So I think heaven is a quite fitting place - doing something for which we are made.

Dave!

If heaven was just a big cloud on which there was nothing to do for eternity, then yes it would be sh*t.

But if heaven was a vast (infinite?) place to explore, with vast amounts of people/souls to interact with, then I wouldn't consider it "hellish"...

Deadeyes

But is heaven eternal? As I understand it you can get thrown out for misbehaving, just as Satan and his cohorts.

Aodan83

I always thought that if there is a heaven, then it would be more of a personal heaven. Not everyone would have the same idea of heaven. so surely heaven would change depending on your idea of heaven. then heaven would be an eternally changing.... thingy.ye get me?

nyarlothothep

Miltons Paradise Lost describes what heaven, the classical heaven is like. A really good book, don't be thrown off by the classicism of it, its like an epic fantasy novel

Joe1919

I love this poem from Lucretius (ca. 99 BC- ca. 55 BC), where he asks his patron to
give up his fear of death.

For thou shalt sleep, and never wake again,
And, quitting life, shalt quit thy living pain.
But we, thy friends, shall all those sorrows find
Which in forgetful death thou leav'st behind;
No time shall dry our tears, nor drive thee from our mind.
The worst that can befall thee, measured right,
Is a sound slumber, and a long goodnight. (3. 90-6)

MightyCelestial

In Heaven, you never get bored.

Seloth

Deadeyes wrote: »

But is heaven eternal? As I understand it you can get thrown out for misbehaving, just as Satan and his cohorts.

That was becasue Satan challenged God and his position.

Apparently in Heaven you woudlnt have fear,therefore you woudlnt be you.Sure a person says they are afraid of notting,what lies,I want to see that person Jump of a building with no safty measures,or be chased by an crazed axe murderer.

Yeah Heaven would probably be how you would like it to be.Such as each person having,say they're own Universe in which they can do what they wish.

hexagramer

i doubt theres a place that has massive white clouds and offeres nothing but comfert, and i doubt theres a place thats floor is lava and full of red fireballs.

i think when mans mind stops evolving we can fly anywhere, kill anyone, do anything, love anyone, be anybody, be the master in charge, be FREE. thoroughly be yourself. i dont know and i cant describe it because man isnt evolved enough.

i also think we have to consider facts around us and stop bleedin dreamin, start learning what micro organisms are and know that those germs on your toilette is in fact life.

boobookitty

I assume in Heaven you go through some of rebirth? If you died of all illness, old age, murder, you'd want a "new body" of some sort, right? Otherwise, you'd spent eternity in bliss with a bad hip or something...

Yet, who is to say there is a physical presence in Heaven, it may be emotional or so vast from our human way of thinking (logic), we will never be able to comprehend.

Blows my mind thinking about it.

Who is to say things like exist in the first place?

Do we just rot in the ground?

I love thinking about things like this.

---

Off topic. This is my own personal opinion. This is not a sob story, more like an anecdote?

OK, I'm 19 years old and for the first 16 years of my life, the idea of Heaven&Hell was hammered into my skull. Whether it be from school, parents, church and society. When I was 17/18, my mother got cancer and after a while, became terminally ill. Now, I began to wonder. I have been told for 17/18 years that those who are good will be rewarded, right? Yet, here is a woman who has been loving and caring and is going to die? Why? I see it all the time, innocent people being killed and dying. The whole time she was ill, I was constantly told: "She'll be in a better place (Heaven), don't worry about it".

So, I was thinking. Is this just not like the whole Santa Claus thing? Be good and you'll be rewarded (presents/Heaven), otherwise you'll be punished (coal/Hell). Is Heaven just a scare factor to make sure people live right during their time when they're alive? Some sort of way to control society from going crazy?

kelly1

boobookitty wrote: »

I assume in Heaven you go through some of rebirth? If you died of all illness, old age, murder, you'd want a "new body" of some sort, right? Otherwise, you'd spent eternity in bliss with a bad hip or something...

Hello bbk, at the end of the world, when Christ comes in glory, every person that ever existed (good and bad) will receive new "spiritual" bodies at the General Judgment. The just will receive beautiful bodies and the wicked ugly ones. These bodies will be totally unconstrained like our earthly ones and there will be no more pain, hunger or thirst.

boobookitty wrote: »

Yet, who is to say there is a physical presence in Heaven, it may be emotional or so vast from our human way of thinking (logic), we will never be able to comprehend.

Blows my mind thinking about it.

Scripture basically says we can't imaging what Heaven is like which is saying quite a lot!

1 Corinthians 2:9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.

boobookitty wrote: »

Who is to say things like exist in the first place?

Jesus

boobookitty wrote: »

Do we just rot in the ground?

No way.

boobookitty wrote: »

Off topic. This is my own personal opinion. This is not a sob story, more like an anecdote?

OK, I'm 19 years old and for the first 16 years of my life, the idea of Heaven&Hell was hammered into my skull. Whether it be from school, parents, church and society. When I was 17/18, my mother got cancer and after a while, became terminally ill. Now, I began to wonder. I have been told for 17/18 years that those who are good will be rewarded, right? Yet, here is a woman who has been loving and caring and is going to die? Why? I see it all the time, innocent people being killed and dying. The whole time she was ill, I was constantly told: "She'll be in a better place (Heaven), don't worry about it".

So, I was thinking. Is this just not like the whole Santa Claus thing? Be good and you'll be rewarded (presents/Heaven), otherwise you'll be punished (coal/Hell). Is Heaven just a scare factor to make sure people live right during their time when they're alive? Some sort of way to control society from going crazy?

I sorry to hear that you lost your mother - I did too.

I think you may be thinking about things from a purely natural/human perspective. Trust that God is rewarding your mother with love and peace that cannot be put into words. Life is tough at times but God just wants us to trust that things will work out for the best when we put our faith in Him and be patient when trials come.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come, that shall be revealed in us.

Dave!

kelly1, not everyone finds your assurances about Jesus to be convincing/consoling. To say to someone who's mother has died "just trust in Jesus" is a bit trite. What if they don't/can't trust in Jesus? Then your ostensibly comforting suggestion (the implication being that 'this is the only way') backfires in a painful way. Consolation from a natural perspective is more challenging, but ultimately it's probably better for the person feeling pain.

ChocolateSauce

I agree. If someone close to me had just died and someone told be to trust in Jesus I'd snap and go off the rails.

kelly1

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I agree. If someone close to me had just died and someone told be to trust in Jesus I'd snap and go off the rails.

Why? Wouldn't that indicate that you blame God and judge Him to have acted unjustly?

ChocolateSauce

kelly1 wrote: »

Why? Wouldn't that indicate that you blame God and judge Him to have acted unjustly?

I really don't see how you arrived at that conclusion. How can I be angry at someone who I do not believe exists?

kelly1

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I really don't see how you arrived at that conclusion. How can I be angry at someone who I do not believe exists?

OK, so why would you "snap and go off the rails"?

Burial

Because you'd sound like a deeply religious person who is trying to convert them?

ChocolateSauce

kelly1 wrote: »

OK, so why would you "snap and go off the rails"?

Would you appreciate it if I told you, while you were grieving, that god was a delusion and your loved one was dead and gone? And if I acted as though I knew better?

And by go off the rails, I mean I would attack their personal beliefs in an unkind way and tell them off vocally for being so self-righteous to my face. I'd probably then storm off feeling more upset than before.

MightyCelestial

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Would you appreciate it if I told you, while you were grieving, that god was a delusion and your loved one was dead and gone? And if I acted as though I knew better?

And by go off the rails, I mean I would attack their personal beliefs in an unkind way and tell them off vocally for being so self-righteous to my face. I'd probably then storm off feeling more upset than before.

Which would not only be a very natural reaction, but also a very correct reaction for you to have in such a case.

Trying to communicate to some one that their inner-most beliefs are wrong (especially with any kind of "conversional" tone) during such a vulnerable time as grief is an incredibly unempathetic manner of communication & severely lacks the depth of compassion that is required to help a fellow human being to get thru such times.