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ok so you try to evade an attack...

2

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    Oooh my skill-technique alarm went off there!

    I would have agreed with Dragan's definitions, and do, but judging by Boru's definitions above a drill cannot develop skill, as it does not involve increasing difficulty in terms of timing, resistance, or space.

    Of course it can. Drills are used to develop skill, timing, space etc. To learn those technqiues and practice those same skills. Increasingly complex pad work, movement, and timing are all incorperated. But it's still abstract. It's still a white dot your learning to hit. Not a person.
    Perhaps this is coming down to the fuzzy explanation of "drill" by Boru, as he includes sparring in this, but also says it's "abstract and unrealistic".

    If it was fuzzy I apologize, I tried to make myself clear and easily understandable. Yes, to me, sparring is unrealistic and abstract. It's not that it doesn't have benefit, it certainly does, speed, timing co-ordination, reaction etc, but sparring is sparring, not realistic fight training. As I mentioned in the above clip, this fight started from a blow from behind, as do many real fights. I have rarely seen a real fight start by squaring off, with a ref, bowing, or touching gloves. That's sparring a useful tool and drill, NOT a realisitic scenario or realistic confrontation. It's just not how it happens. If you think that a street fight starts with a bow, handshake and touching of gloves, I'm very worried for you. I've explained this at length previously and if you can't understand my point by now you're not going to.



    As for golf, golf has no skill, just a sh!t load of technique. No environmental factors change rapidly enough to cause a change of technique during execution.

    Perhaps it was a poor analogy, but practicing on a range is completely different from different countours or levels on the ground, being in the rough, in the sand, uneven syrafaces etc. It's far more realistic than simply standing on a even unchanging surface on the range. I think that was clear enough to be understood.
    But all this is just coming down to misinterpretation that comes with lenghtly verbal descriptions of things that can easily be shown on a video. Have you a vid of something like that, Boru?

    I would say it is a simple miscommunication as always. I have many many hours of video footage, of drills, inclduing members of this forum, but at the same time I wouldn't publish any of it online without written consent from the participants. As always Colm, my door is always open, you're welcome to drop by any time and I'd be more than happy to spend a few hours answering your questions and exploring any aspect you have trouble with.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    cowzerp wrote: »
    A drill? sparring in competitive arts such as muay thai, boxing etc is more real than a martial arts scenario where its all compliant!

    in sparring both are trying to dominate each other. are you somehow saying that sparring is not and that fake scenario situations are more real?

    in a true scenario situation you would have to be caught off guard and attacked with full intent and force, this does not happen, its bbasiocally been hopped on.

    Again, no disagreement form me. Muay Thai, boxing sparring etc is certainly more real than a compliant scenario. But I don't practice compliant scenarios. Nor do any reality based pracitioners worth their salt. As you correctly pointed out, it aint real. Scenario's are not compliant, opponents resisit full force, full power. Thier goal is to make usre you don't win.

    As above, in my reply to Colm, sparring has uses, but iut's sparring not realisitic combat training. Please read that post for a more indepth explanation.

    Yes, again I agree with you completely, a true scenario situation does involve being caught off guard. Which we do. You don't when, if or how you will be attacked, you may not even be attacked. That's kinda the point.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    Roper wrote: »
    We all try and replicate what we're training for as best we can. Scenarios, drills or whatever you call them can never achieve that no matter how much you try to make them as there is always the safety net of knowing that it isn't the real thing. Equally, sparring for boxing, mma etc. doesn't have the crowd, the heat, the adrenaline and so on.

    Very true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 144 ✭✭phoenix-MT


    well actually boru in the uk this is unfortunetly now a common thing however it being reported is uncommon therefore you do not see it in the news that much. Crime statistics are aload of **** as they only show reported crimes. like this guy who would have woke up on his own if there had been no cctv, what is he going to report after being knocked out?

    I think maybe its time we all look at our "reality" training whether you want to call it drilling or scenarios as the whole physcological side of aggression is evolving. We are seeing a new type of threat, and its more lethal than any that we have taught or trained for before........unprovoked
    attacks.

    I found out that one of my students many years ago was walking home and got bottled from behind for no reason, i can appreciate this as the same thing happend to me. had a few to drink, wobbling a little bit walking home with a mate. lots of people around so was fairly at ease when all of a sudden some little s*** came up behind me, smashed a bottle in my face and ran away!

    Curling up into a ball is what they want, like it has been mentioned they are looking for 'prey' . Maybe they would think twice if every person started fighting back, after all who else is going to sort them out....the courts?? For those of you who believe in the workings of a justice system let me put this to you......when i was working and came accross scum like this every day, having an ASBO was like us having a world title in our martial arts. Its pride to walk around with a ankle tag or some sort of curfue because it makes them think and feel 'gangster'!! Im all for walking away and turning the other cheek but no in these types of incidents im not.

    Sorry for the spelling and just to clear something up im not hinting on starting some sort of vigilante organisation, although if someone does................gimme a call :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    I love colm's discussions on skill/technique. because I often think I know what he means and then he goes and says something that confuses me. To take the golf example, I would consider the skill inherent in golf is the application of the technique. So let's say the average semi-pro golfer has 14 clubs in his bag, I'd suggest he has 2/3 different shots he can play with each club. This gives him let's say 40 different shots he can play from any position. Next you tie in the wind, slope, surface of the point you're striking from and surface of the point you're aiming for. The skill is using your experience and your intuition to play the right shot at the right time. I think golf is a lot like jiujitsu but in slow slow slow motion.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 512 ✭✭✭TKD SC


    I love colm's discussions on skill/technique. because I often think I know what he means and then he goes and says something that confuses me. To take the golf example, I would consider the skill inherent in golf is the application of the technique. So let's say the average semi-pro golfer has 14 clubs in his bag, I'd suggest he has 2/3 different shots he can play with each club. This gives him let's say 40 different shots he can play from any position. Next you tie in the wind, slope, surface of the point you're striking from and surface of the point you're aiming for. The skill is using your experience and your intuition to play the right shot at the right time. I think golf is a lot like jiujitsu but in slow slow slow motion.

    Ha ha! I never get his golf comments either! To me golf is extremely skillful! That's why I gave it up! Talk to any low handicap golfer and tell them it's not skillful! Surely skill is being able to do something well? The skill of doing the perfect golf technique, i.e. the swing? And many many variable conditions come into play. Anyway, prob all down to definitions, and this isnt the golf forum!!

    My two cent would be:
    - Have general kop on / awareness (without resorting to being Jack Bauer*!)
    - Stay calm, relaxed, don't lose temper
    - Learn how to hit very hard (hopefully not needed) and how to Sprint

    If g/f / wife / family / parents with you, then not sure...

    I'm convinced that of say about 2/3 different "altercations" a few years back that due to my calm nature (and also a friend that was with me that doesnt drink) that we difused a situation(s) that could otherwise have escalated if for example I was a hot head. Not saying turn the other cheek but I did find simply staying calm and talking did help alot. Obviously a random "jumped on" attack in a dark alleyway is different to this (in which case pt 1 & 3 above apply), but most "street fights" are usually outside a pub / club where lots of drink is involved and people try to act tough.



    * I wish I was Jack Bauer!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭Colm_OReilly


    I'll answer your skill/technique questions tomorrow, but yeah it's great how people will get upset with it. :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 512 ✭✭✭TKD SC


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/families-in-pitched-battle-1443186.html

    worth a quick look from paper today...not something I'd like to be caught in the middle of with all my "Kung Fu Fighting" skills...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Some great advice; allbeit entirely obvious to those who utilise it.

    1: Be a nice person

    2: Go to nice places

    3: Hang around with nice people.


    This kid probably knew his attackers and this was probably some kind of feud. The guy decided to walk down a secluded area alone. I'm not saying for a second that this guy deserved what he got but it's worth noting.

    Of course, that advice is just one aspect of self defence; but not everyone is getting it right.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 113 ✭✭Havo


    You can be the nicest person in the world and these scumbags are still going to attack ya regardless...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    You're fogetting number 2 and number 3 there Havo


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 113 ✭✭Havo


    You're fogetting number 2 and number 3 there Havo

    I go to nice places and i hang around with lovely people...hasnt stopped me from being attacked by the likes of them people in de video... i honestly think its bein in de wrong place at the wrong time and ders not much ye can do about avoiding dem situations if theyre dead set on wantin to bash ya... just leg it if ya can


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    Havo wrote: »
    I go to nice places and i hang around with lovely people...hasnt stopped me from being attacked by the likes of them people in de video... i honestly think its bein in de wrong place at the wrong time and ders not much ye can do about avoiding dem situations if theyre dead set on wantin to bash ya... just leg it if ya can

    I totally agree with you.

    B.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Havo wrote: »
    i honestly think its bein in de wrong place at the wrong time and ders not much ye can do about avoiding dem situations

    I would completely disagree with you.

    Of course, attacks can be completely random and I'm not saying these rules are a steadfast way to ensure you'll never be attacked.

    BUT, I think there's a hell of alot you can do to avoid being attacked.

    Havo wrote: »
    if theyre dead set on wantin to bash ya

    Before it ever gets to that stage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    BUT, I think there's a hell of alot you can do to avoid being attacked.

    Yeah, that's just stating the obvious... We all know about "awareness, avoidance and escape".

    Try explaining your three rules to the crims.

    I had a mate who was recently attacked in a video shop where he works (robbery). There were few a home invasions down here, and a few guys were badly beaten.

    I suppose these guys were not playing safe according to your rules, being in their own home and places of work. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Baggio... wrote: »
    Yeah, that's just stating the obvious... We all know about "awareness, avoidance and escape".

    Try explaining your three rules to the crims.

    I had a mate who was recently attacked in a video shop where he works (robbery). There were few a home invasions down here, and a few guys were badly beaten.

    I suppose these guys were not playing safe according to your rules, being in their own home and places of work. :rolleyes:

    There are always going to be unfortunate victims of circumstance sadly.

    Statistically speaking though you can drop you chances as we all know however it does not mean that nothing will ever happen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    Dragan wrote: »
    Statistically speaking though you can drop you chances as we all know however it does not mean that nothing will ever happen.

    Absolutely mate, I totally agree with you. It's better not to be there in the first place. We always train to avoid any hassle where possible (soft skills first then the hard skills, and that's only assuming you can't run away).

    It's just that I hear that same old tropes over and over again. "If was probably his fault" Or "it's a feud", "he's in a bad area". It's all just total speculation...

    Most trouble can be avoided, but as you said there will always be victims, no matter where they are, or whoever they hang out with.

    Scumbags don't adhere to all the rules unfortunately.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Baggio... wrote: »
    Yeah, that's just stating the obvious... We all know about "awareness, avoidance and escape".

    I did say this stuff was obvious
    Baggio... wrote: »

    I had a mate who was recently attacked in a video shop where he works (robbery). There were few a home invasions down here, and a few guys were badly beaten.

    I also said random attacks will still happen.
    Baggio... wrote: »
    I suppose these guys were not playing safe according to your rules, being in their own home and places of work. :rolleyes:

    I too shall use the roll eyes on that one:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Baggio... wrote: »
    It's just that I hear that same old tropes over and over again. "If was probably his fault" Or "it's a feud", "he's in a bad area". It's all just total speculation...
    Yeah but so is everything when it comes to a news story. ESPECIALLY a news story in that well known truth organ The Sun, who would literally say anything to sell papers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    Roper wrote: »
    ESPECIALLY a news story in that well known truth organ The Sun, who would literally say anything to sell papers.

    I agree... The is a lot of media hype and I don't trust much of what I read. None of us were there, so WE don't know the full circumstances that surrounded this event - as I said it's pure speculation for us to say what happened. You can make a hypothesis, but that's all it is.

    Also, I'm not really referring to this attack per se. I'm just saying, in general, that you could do all the right things, and still be attacked.

    I do acknowledge the fact that random attacks are relatively rare, and it's quite unlikely to happen if you are "switched on" and actively stay out of trouble.

    But having talked to quite a few of the guys down here, who i train with, and also talking to one of my Dads best mates, who is one of the top Garda's. There seems is a pretty dramatic rise in these unprovoked, and nonsensical attacks.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    I think it's best to leave the jury out on the rise in the attacks until actual figures are in. I have a pretty skeptical approach to the media in Ireland, and much of the reports on street violence in the popular media have taken a sensationalist approach with very few facts or figures to back up any claims. In addition, nobody (at least no Irish person) is ever going to say "ah fado fado, do you remember the time when the streets were more violent?" We have a tendency to rose tint the past.

    That being said, violent attacks are on the rise statistically, but my point is that until they're collated with relative rises in population, especially in large towns and cities, I think it's unwise to assume you have a greater chance of being attacked.

    Also, not to climb on me oul soapbox here, but there are greater things to worry about than someone jumping you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Because thats where some of the posts in this thread belong.

    Simple fact, the guy in that clip was going to get the ch*t kicked out of him no matter what he done, why?... Because that was his assailants intent - nothing more, nothing less.

    Poor chap, its a sickening vid.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    Roper wrote: »
    I think it's unwise to assume you have a greater chance of being attacked.

    Why?
    Roper wrote: »
    Also, not to climb on me oul soapbox here, but there are greater things to worry about than someone jumping you.

    I'd agree...

    As I always said... While I try to be "switched on", I don't run around town looking over my shoulders. That wouldn't be a great way to live at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Baggio... wrote: »
    Why?
    Because an increase in the population may mean a corresponding rise in crime, but may also mean you have statistically less chance of being the one who gets hopped on. Per capita, the violent crime rate may actually have fallen due to the population rise. I'm not saying it did, I'm just saying that it's one of many variables and possibilities that people don't consider when they use tag lines like lawless Britain or Broken Britain or whatever. Reportage of violent crime has certainly gone up. Newspapers like The Sun not only have to fill 70 pages a day and compete with the Mirror and the like, now they also have to compete with 24 hour news channels and websites and fill their own website.

    I don't mean to be insulting to readers of The Sun, but people don't buy that to read about economics and politics, social programmes and the like, they buy it because its an easy teabreak read for ten minutes in the morning and it's a lot easier to digest "Scum On The Run" while having a coffee and a sandwhich than "Top Economist Says ECB Rate May Rise Due to Property Index Fall". I don't buy it but I read the sports pages...

    In any case, I'm not trying to say that the world is a safe place, but what I do know is that if it was safety that I was looking for I'd choose Ireland over 90% of countries in the world. I know that it doesn't sell self defence courses or martial arts classes, but this is a comparatively safe place. Imagine walking up to a guy in Lagos and asking him if he was concerned about being hopped on after a night out? He'd probably say he was, but he was a fvck load more concerned about the guys with automatic weapons who might get him in broad daylight... and they're just the cops!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    Roper wrote: »
    Because an increase in the population may mean a corresponding rise in crime, but may also mean you have statistically less chance of being the one who gets hopped on.

    I suppose, that's the key word here, "may" mean. Interesting points... but until the evidence is correlated I have to remain skeptical also.

    Roper wrote: »
    I'd choose Ireland over 90% of countries in the world. I know that it doesn't sell self defence courses or martial arts classes, but this is a comparatively safe place.

    I'd agree, it's relatively safe compared to some other places. But if I wanted to be truly safe, that's if I was really that bothered about it, I would live in the south of France :). At least were quite a bit behind England when it comes to violent crime - lets hope it stays that way.

    Just on Ireland not being violent.
    If you asked people who have been attacked or beaten up, they may have a different perspective than yourself. It's always worth talking to people on the subject, especially if they have been victims at one point in time.

    One last thing I'd say - people always blame the media for hyperbole, etc. While I do believe that they have to sell their stuff and often exaggerate the facts in order to manipulate people. However, in reality the only inflame the actual issue. The crimes are taking place, and the attacks are happening. Even if it is in an exaggerated state.

    PS - I'm not trying to sell anyone a "self-defence" course. Just in case anyone thinks I am. :D

    Interesting discussion all the same.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Mairt wrote: »
    Simple fact, the guy in that clip was going to get the ch*t kicked out of him no matter what he done, why?... Because that was his assailants intent - nothing more, nothing less.

    Simple fact, attackers are less likely to attack when the chances of being caught are increased. I don't think these attackers would have attacked so freely and repeatedly if there were cars and people going past.
    Even if it was a random attack he was more vulnerable just for being in a secluded area.

    If you walk home alone, through a dark alley, where attacks frequently occur, swinging your note filled wallet you make yourself an easy target. You couldn't even consider that a random attack.
    If you happen to find yourself in an area that you go to regularly and has never been dangerous in the past, it just happens to be very quiet with no-one around and an attacker with his face covered approaches you....that's a random attack.

    Ok, so that's obvious......but then.
    You hear people saying "I was just standing outside after the nightclub waiting for my taxi and this guy hit me". They consider this a random attack. But the chances of this happening just down the road from the night club are greatly decreased.

    There are other things to consider too.
    There was a guy in college that used to get the same bus as me. He walked slowly, very slowly and without purpose. Nowhere to go, nobody to meet, no time he had to be there. He was always alone and listening to his iPod with his face pointing to the ground and his hair covering his line of vision. His wore the same clothes all the time and most people wouldn't notice him if he walked past. I actually almost wanted to mug the guy myself to prove a point.

    I'm not saying people who get attacked are in the wrong themselves or that simple things will guarantee you safety from attacks, but there's certainly things you can do to improve the odds. And I speculate, in the video this thread is based on, the victim wasn't aware of them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 113 ✭✭Havo


    Charlie i think you'd have an entilrely diiferent opinion on the matter if something like that happened to yourself.... its happened to me in my "nice" area in front of cars wizzing past and there was absolutley nothin i could have done about it... i might as well have been standin outside a Garda station , it wudnt have made a difference to em...they wanted to batter me and that was that, for no reason whatsoever , plus i wasnt even alone and they still tried it...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭mark.leonard


    Baggio... wrote: »
    I suppose, that's the key word here, "may" mean. Interesting points... but until the evidence is correlated I have to remain skeptical also.

    Co-incidentally I have done some research for my next article in the Irish Fighter on this and it will be in the September issue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    Nice one.... I'm looking forward to having a read of it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Havo, I do see what you're saying but if I were to be attacked on a street with cars whizzing by and guys I'd never seen before who wanted to batter me for no reason whatsoever I would consider that a random attack.
    I'm not saying people who get attacked are in the wrong themselves or that simple things will guarantee you safety from attacks, but there's certainly things you can do to improve the odds.

    But I grant that sometimes improving your odds wont be enough.
    Sometimes you can be the healthiest guy in the world and die and the unhealthiest guy lives to be 100.


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