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ok so you try to evade an attack...

  • 30-07-2008 01:25PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 742 ✭✭✭


    ok you tried your best, you crossed the road, you tried talking ...running! theres about 4 of them...what do you do, curl up and cover the essentials...grab the weakest or biggest and try to hurt one bad...scream and scream some more?!

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/justice/article1486464.ece seeing this got me thinking, that unless your an animal fighter you aint getting out of this one by fighting

    this is sickening and not easy to watch...warning!


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭mickoo


    Put up a fight and just be as aggressive as possible, better than been stomped on while cowering, and more chance they'll feel that iyts just not worth the hassle!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 742 ✭✭✭easyontheeye


    mickoo wrote: »
    Put up a fight and just be as aggressive as possible, better than been stomped on while cowering, and more chance they'll feel that iyts just not worth the hassle!

    yeah you could put up a fight, but in reality not everyone is in a position or has the ability to do so. also if you put up a fight and get put down, they are gonna hurt you more. its lose lose !


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    If all else fails your going to fight back. If your lucky you'll drop one quickly and that'll make the others rethink it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    how's it lose lose?
    i've been in serious multiple attacker situations three times and i punched like a mad thing till i walked away unscathed on 2 occasions, on the other occasion i was battered with sticks but kept fighting till they had enough of been hit back and where happy to finish, and if i had of bottled it i could of been more badly hurt and possibly killed, i know this will not always be the outcome but it certainly is not all lose.

    PS, The thing to remember about these types of people are that there usually bullys that just want to beat up easy targets-i say, dont be an easy target.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 742 ✭✭✭easyontheeye


    cowzerp wrote: »
    how's it lose lose?
    i've been in serious multiple attacker situations three times and i punched like a mad thing till i walked away unscathed on 2 occasions, on the other occasion i was battered with sticks but kept fighting till they had enough of been hit back and where happy to finish, and if i had of bottled it i could of been more badly hurt and possibly killed, i know this will not always be the outcome but it certainly is not all lose.

    PS, The thing to remember about these types of people are that there usually bullys that just want to beat up easy targets-i say, dont be an easy target.

    sorry i meant lose lose for someone who isnt a fighter, im thinking about it from someone who hasnt got a fighting background. looking at these videos, most strikes occur when the victim turns their back on them, so i imagine you should be keeping your eyes on as many of them as possible


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    Scum. Delighted they got what's coming to them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    You'd be amazed what someone with no formal training can do....however, against four dedicated attackers it's not going to be a lot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Just watched the clip and it made me very angry, these people should be locked up for very long terms.. more reason to just stand your ground, if your out and these type are there your bolloxxed..even with no training, id windmill and just make life as hard as possible for them, scum.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 742 ✭✭✭easyontheeye


    agreed, the guy is clearly half dead, yet they deliever little taps to the head and then one final football kick to the head. how is that not a case for attempted murder!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    That video is horrible. In answer to the what I'd do question, I just don't have a clue.

    I have a fair few ideas about what I'd do if it was a family member left on the ground though.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭t-ha


    also if you put up a fight and get put down, they are gonna hurt you more. its lose lose !
    maybe, but that guy didn't fight back and they soccer kicked him in the head after he was out? Not much you can really do tbh if you get rabbit punched in the back of the head (unless you spend your life looking over your shoulders). Alot of people running away from the scene aswell, although I can't blame them - I wouldn't be too surprised if you found a few blades on those scumbags if you searched them.


  • Posts: 14,379 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    the only thing u can do in that situation to defend yourself is to think "wanderlei Silva" be ruthless and go at them as if its you or them (cos it very well could be). But at the first opening to run away, do it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭raah!


    I dunno if this "be ruthless" is the best idea (especially if you are not a particularily strong stricker). If you do curl into a ball , the chances are you'll get hit in the body and head, as opposed to the face.... and what's a bit of body and head damage? (of course there's brain damage, but you could get that just as badly from a straight forward hit to the head).

    This type of thing has happened to me alot in my lifetime, and I've never ever, not been able to run away


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    ok you tried your best, you crossed the road, you tried talking ...running! theres about 4 of them...what do you do, curl up and cover the essentials...grab the weakest or biggest and try to hurt one bad...scream and scream some more?!

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/justice/article1486464.ece seeing this got me thinking, that unless your an animal fighter you aint getting out of this one by fighting

    this is sickening and not easy to watch...warning!

    This is a horrible clip. And luckily NOT a common situation. The majority of people will never have the misfortune to fall prey to something like this thank god. Those that do I hope pull through as luckily as this guy did.

    With that said, there are a couple of interesting observations that can be made.

    1. the fight started off, not as a face off, Ie the sparring position adopted by most martial arts and combat sports, but as a suprise blow to the back of the head.

    2. This did not knock him down. The unfortuante young man in the video was, while certainly disorientated able to stand, keep his footing and keep moving for some time after the initial blow.

    Again, although out of shot it is safe to assume that he in fact was able to take serveral more blows from multiple aggressors and was able to move away.

    3. He was not simulataenously attacked for a lenghty period of time. If you look at the video, once he reappears on camera, you'll note he is not being attacked by the 4 aggressors at once. They get in each others way as he is trying to escape, and only recieves a few blows from no more than 2 at a time.

    4. He does not appear at any time to fight back.

    5. He is knocked out, leading to his fall, not tackled or taken down.

    Fighting is tough, hard and difficult. I don't recommended it. It's not a good place to be. With that said a few hours or days training in a reality based system, does prepare people for such a situation quite well.

    For instance at the recent Mick Coup seminar, hosted by David Leiws - a drill, not a scenario, a drill, replicated many features found in the above clip, and helped particpants deal with such an event.

    For instance, attacks were initiated from behind with direct stiff shots to the head. This is disoreintating, and a far more realisitc way to engage the opponent than bowing, touching gloves or squaring off.

    The hurt, disorientated fighter then had to turn, locate the target that stuck him and engage that target with repeated direct strikes, only to be hit again, with a stiff shot, hard enough to shake thier footing from behind, they then had to re-orientate and acquire a new target and strike. This is repeated fast, with several opponents in close proximity, and teaches students to quickly regain composure and defend oneself providing an oppertutity for escape.

    Drills like this can be built upon, for instance after 30 seconds of full out combat against the aggressors, the student could then have to break through a scrum of people to get free and esacpe. In this way the student can safely and progressively learn how to react apropriately to an incident such as the above, so as to increase the chances of survival and esacpe.

    Most good reality based and self defence orientated schools will teach in a manner similar to this - initiating stikes from behind, cathcing the student unaware, agaressive, full contact multiple drills, brief intesne combat followed by sprinting etc. Lee Morrison and Urban Combatives, as taught by guys like Baggio and Jon, would include stuff like this, as would the system I teach, as would a decent Krav, Kapap school etc. Of course the best defence is not to end up in a situation like that where such stuff may be needed. Going out with a group of friends, staying in well lit areas, and basic awareness helps more than combat training and self defence.

    That said a dedicated self defence course won't make you Jason Bourne, but it will help should a horribly unlucky and unlikely situation as the above occur, and give you a better window of oppertunity to get to saftey.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    great post boru. good to see you back around these parts. hope you enjoyed the dark knight.


  • Posts: 14,379 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    raah! wrote: »
    I dunno if this "be ruthless" is the best idea (especially if you are not a particularily strong stricker). If you do curl into a ball , the chances are you'll get hit in the body and head, as opposed to the face.... and what's a bit of body and head damage? (of course there's brain damage, but you could get that just as badly from a straight forward hit to the head).

    This type of thing has happened to me alot in my lifetime, and I've never ever, not been able to run away

    Id rather get hit in the nose and have a broken nose than get a boot in the back or side of my head tbh. Its hopefully a choice I wont ever have to make.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    It's a bit difficult to say what happened and how from just the video though, there may well have been 10 minutes of circumstances leading up to the few minutes shown. I think it's harsh to judge someone who has been attacked after the event. Maybe he was drunk and disoriented already and the blows were made worse by that, maybe he had been hit before he comes into the camera's view. We could pick apart his "performance" there but does that mean anyone here would do any better. I can tell you one thing for certain though, curling up into a foetal position as has been suggested wouldn't have done anything for that guy when he was up against the sort of scummer who'd give him a boot long after he was clearly unconscious.

    Here's a scarier thought for you. The girl who sits on him and rifles through his pockets? Well, one day, she'll have children... ugh.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Roper wrote: »
    Here's a scarier thought for you. The girl who sits on him and rifles through his pockets? Well, one day, she'll have children... ugh.

    As scary as the video is.....that is truly terrifying.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 742 ✭✭✭easyontheeye


    interesting replies there, good to hear them, nice post Boru. I never gave much thought about that girl. make you wonder also if they have done that kind of thing before because they didnt seem alot concerned or worried that the guy was unconscious.

    i'd really like to see inside their head and thoughts during that, surely if you give someone a beating like you have to think the guy could be dead?! putting aside how it started, what terrified me was the continued beating after he is face down unconscious. that is more than assault, thats attempted murder.

    But as someone said, if your a good striker and can show that you can take one or two of them on and hurt them, chances are they will back away or give you a chance to escape.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    raah! wrote: »
    If you do curl into a ball , the chances are you'll get hit in the body and head, as opposed to the face.... and what's a bit of body and head damage?

    Honestly, I can see no reason to think that they'd stop at any time until you were unconscious (and obviously not even then). I think if you go to ground with scum like that you're f*cked one way or the other.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    raah! wrote: »
    I dunno if this "be ruthless" is the best idea (especially if you are not a particularily strong stricker). If you do curl into a ball , the chances are you'll get hit in the body and head, as opposed to the face....

    This type of thing has happened to me alot in my lifetime, and I've never ever, not been able to run away


    Thats the worst idea ever, you sound like a typical victim.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    raah! wrote: »
    I dunno if this "be ruthless" is the best idea (especially if you are not a particularily strong stricker). If you do curl into a ball , the chances are you'll get hit in the body and head, as opposed to the face.... and what's a bit of body and head damage? (of course there's brain damage, but you could get that just as badly from a straight forward hit to the head).

    This type of thing has happened to me alot in my lifetime, and I've never ever, not been able to run away

    I missed this earlier but advocating taking vital organ damage over soft tissue damage is hardly the best way to go.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,856 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Boru wrote:
    For instance at the recent Mick Coup seminar, hosted by David Leiws - a drill, not a scenario,

    Whats the difference between a drill and a scenario?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Whats the difference between a drill and a scenario?

    Scenario is largely theory and a slow walk through....a drill is done over and over again at pace, decent level of impact of blows etc. afaik.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭dreamr



    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/justice/article1486464.ece seeing this got me thinking, that unless your an animal fighter you aint getting out of this one by fighting
    quote]

    can some one copy and paste this article.. i cant get at it...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Boru.


    Whats the difference between a drill and a scenario?

    A drill is an abstract series of exercies designed to teach the student certain skills and responses. It does not replicate or in anyway come close to real life. It is used simply to teach a concept or technqiue. For instance ANY pad based work is a drill. You aren't hitting a human being, you're hitting a pad with a white dot on the end of someone's hand. Unless you are magically attacked by aliens with white dot pads for a head, or on their hands, this is will always be a drill. A drill is abstract. I would go as far as to say sparring is a drill.

    A scenario, is a realistic replication of a given incident. Often full speed, full power. Realisitc enviroment, inititation etc.

    A drill is where you are taught and learn certain aspects of a fight. This is abstract and unrealistic. A sceanario is a complete realisitic replication where those technqiues are applied.

    Easy anaolgy. A drill is like a golf range, you practice your swing from a set position and there is no real stake. A scenario is taking the skill from the golf range and applying it to a game of golf on a golf course. As realisitic as competition, but without pressure. Real life then would be the PGA Tour. And you have about as much chance of getting attacked as you do being in the PGA tour.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭Colm_OReilly


    Oooh my skill-technique alarm went off there!

    I would have agreed with Dragan's definitions, and do, but judging by Boru's definitions above a drill cannot develop skill, as it does not involve increasing difficulty in terms of timing, resistance, or space.

    Perhaps this is coming down to the fuzzy explanation of "drill" by Boru, as he includes sparring in this, but also says it's "abstract and unrealistic".

    As for golf, golf has no skill, just a sh!t load of technique. No environmental factors change rapidly enough to cause a change of technique during execution.

    But all this is just coming down to misinterpretation that comes with lenghtly verbal descriptions of things that can easily be shown on a video. Have you a vid of something like that, Boru?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    I would have agreed with Dragan's definitions, and do, but judging by Boru's definitions above a drill cannot develop skill, as it does not involve increasing difficulty in terms of timing, resistance, or space.

    The joy of language is it's maleable nature and how "term" is really just the bitch of "interpretation"! :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Boru. wrote: »
    I would go as far as to say sparring is a drill.

    A scenario, is a realistic replication of a given incident. Often full speed, full power. Realisitc enviroment, inititation etc.

    A drill is where you are taught and learn certain aspects of a fight. This is abstract and unrealistic. A sceanario is a complete realisitic replication where those technqiues are applied.

    A drill? sparring in competitive arts such as muay thai, boxing etc is more real than a martial arts scenario where its all compliant!

    in sparring both are trying to dominate each other. are you somehow saying that sparring is not and that fake scenario situations are more real?

    in a true scenario situation you would have to be caught off guard and attacked with full intent and force, this does not happen, its bbasiocally been hopped on.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    We all try and replicate what we're training for as best we can. Scenarios, drills or whatever you call them can never achieve that no matter how much you try to make them as there is always the safety net of knowing that it isn't the real thing. Equally, sparring for boxing, mma etc. doesn't have the crowd, the heat, the adrenaline and so on.


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