ok so you try to evade an attack...

easyontheeye

ok you tried your best, you crossed the road, you tried talking ...running! theres about 4 of them...what do you do, curl up and cover the essentials...grab the weakest or biggest and try to hurt one bad...scream and scream some more?!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/justice/article1486464.ece seeing this got me thinking, that unless your an animal fighter you aint getting out of this one by fighting

this is sickening and not easy to watch...warning!

mickoo

Put up a fight and just be as aggressive as possible, better than been stomped on while cowering, and more chance they'll feel that iyts just not worth the hassle!

easyontheeye

mickoo wrote: »

Put up a fight and just be as aggressive as possible, better than been stomped on while cowering, and more chance they'll feel that iyts just not worth the hassle!

yeah you could put up a fight, but in reality not everyone is in a position or has the ability to do so. also if you put up a fight and get put down, they are gonna hurt you more. its lose lose !

Raze_them_all

If all else fails your going to fight back. If your lucky you'll drop one quickly and that'll make the others rethink it

cowzerp

how's it lose lose?
i've been in serious multiple attacker situations three times and i punched like a mad thing till i walked away unscathed on 2 occasions, on the other occasion i was battered with sticks but kept fighting till they had enough of been hit back and where happy to finish, and if i had of bottled it i could of been more badly hurt and possibly killed, i know this will not always be the outcome but it certainly is not all lose.

PS, The thing to remember about these types of people are that there usually bullys that just want to beat up easy targets-i say, dont be an easy target.

easyontheeye

cowzerp wrote: »

how's it lose lose?
i've been in serious multiple attacker situations three times and i punched like a mad thing till i walked away unscathed on 2 occasions, on the other occasion i was battered with sticks but kept fighting till they had enough of been hit back and where happy to finish, and if i had of bottled it i could of been more badly hurt and possibly killed, i know this will not always be the outcome but it certainly is not all lose.

PS, The thing to remember about these types of people are that there usually bullys that just want to beat up easy targets-i say, dont be an easy target.

sorry i meant lose lose for someone who isnt a fighter, im thinking about it from someone who hasnt got a fighting background. looking at these videos, most strikes occur when the victim turns their back on them, so i imagine you should be keeping your eyes on as many of them as possible

Khannie

Scum. Delighted they got what's coming to them.

Dragan

You'd be amazed what someone with no formal training can do....however, against four dedicated attackers it's not going to be a lot.

cowzerp

Just watched the clip and it made me very angry, these people should be locked up for very long terms.. more reason to just stand your ground, if your out and these type are there your bolloxxed..even with no training, id windmill and just make life as hard as possible for them, scum.

easyontheeye

agreed, the guy is clearly half dead, yet they deliever little taps to the head and then one final football kick to the head. how is that not a case for attempted murder!

Roper

That video is horrible. In answer to the what I'd do question, I just don't have a clue.

I have a fair few ideas about what I'd do if it was a family member left on the ground though.

t-ha

easyontheeye wrote: »

also if you put up a fight and get put down, they are gonna hurt you more. its lose lose !

maybe, but that guy didn't fight back and they soccer kicked him in the head after he was out? Not much you can really do tbh if you get rabbit punched in the back of the head (unless you spend your life looking over your shoulders). Alot of people running away from the scene aswell, although I can't blame them - I wouldn't be too surprised if you found a few blades on those scumbags if you searched them.

the only thing u can do in that situation to defend yourself is to think "wanderlei Silva" be ruthless and go at them as if its you or them (cos it very well could be). But at the first opening to run away, do it.

raah!

I dunno if this "be ruthless" is the best idea (especially if you are not a particularily strong stricker). If you do curl into a ball , the chances are you'll get hit in the body and head, as opposed to the face.... and what's a bit of body and head damage? (of course there's brain damage, but you could get that just as badly from a straight forward hit to the head).

This type of thing has happened to me alot in my lifetime, and I've never ever, not been able to run away

Boru.

easyontheeye wrote: »

ok you tried your best, you crossed the road, you tried talking ...running! theres about 4 of them...what do you do, curl up and cover the essentials...grab the weakest or biggest and try to hurt one bad...scream and scream some more?!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/justice/article1486464.ece seeing this got me thinking, that unless your an animal fighter you aint getting out of this one by fighting

this is sickening and not easy to watch...warning!

This is a horrible clip. And luckily NOT a common situation. The majority of people will never have the misfortune to fall prey to something like this thank god. Those that do I hope pull through as luckily as this guy did.

With that said, there are a couple of interesting observations that can be made.

1. the fight started off, not as a face off, Ie the sparring position adopted by most martial arts and combat sports, but as a suprise blow to the back of the head.

2. This did not knock him down. The unfortuante young man in the video was, while certainly disorientated able to stand, keep his footing and keep moving for some time after the initial blow.

Again, although out of shot it is safe to assume that he in fact was able to take serveral more blows from multiple aggressors and was able to move away.

3. He was not simulataenously attacked for a lenghty period of time. If you look at the video, once he reappears on camera, you'll note he is not being attacked by the 4 aggressors at once. They get in each others way as he is trying to escape, and only recieves a few blows from no more than 2 at a time.

4. He does not appear at any time to fight back.

5. He is knocked out, leading to his fall, not tackled or taken down.

Fighting is tough, hard and difficult. I don't recommended it. It's not a good place to be. With that said a few hours or days training in a reality based system, does prepare people for such a situation quite well.

For instance at the recent Mick Coup seminar, hosted by David Leiws - a drill, not a scenario, a drill, replicated many features found in the above clip, and helped particpants deal with such an event.

For instance, attacks were initiated from behind with direct stiff shots to the head. This is disoreintating, and a far more realisitc way to engage the opponent than bowing, touching gloves or squaring off.

The hurt, disorientated fighter then had to turn, locate the target that stuck him and engage that target with repeated direct strikes, only to be hit again, with a stiff shot, hard enough to shake thier footing from behind, they then had to re-orientate and acquire a new target and strike. This is repeated fast, with several opponents in close proximity, and teaches students to quickly regain composure and defend oneself providing an oppertutity for escape.

Drills like this can be built upon, for instance after 30 seconds of full out combat against the aggressors, the student could then have to break through a scrum of people to get free and esacpe. In this way the student can safely and progressively learn how to react apropriately to an incident such as the above, so as to increase the chances of survival and esacpe.

Most good reality based and self defence orientated schools will teach in a manner similar to this - initiating stikes from behind, cathcing the student unaware, agaressive, full contact multiple drills, brief intesne combat followed by sprinting etc. Lee Morrison and Urban Combatives, as taught by guys like Baggio and Jon, would include stuff like this, as would the system I teach, as would a decent Krav, Kapap school etc. Of course the best defence is not to end up in a situation like that where such stuff may be needed. Going out with a group of friends, staying in well lit areas, and basic awareness helps more than combat training and self defence.

That said a dedicated self defence course won't make you Jason Bourne, but it will help should a horribly unlucky and unlikely situation as the above occur, and give you a better window of oppertunity to get to saftey.

Nothingcompares

great post boru. good to see you back around these parts. hope you enjoyed the dark knight.

raah!

raah! wrote: »

I dunno if this "be ruthless" is the best idea (especially if you are not a particularily strong stricker). If you do curl into a ball , the chances are you'll get hit in the body and head, as opposed to the face.... and what's a bit of body and head damage? (of course there's brain damage, but you could get that just as badly from a straight forward hit to the head).

This type of thing has happened to me alot in my lifetime, and I've never ever, not been able to run away

Id rather get hit in the nose and have a broken nose than get a boot in the back or side of my head tbh. Its hopefully a choice I wont ever have to make.

Roper

It's a bit difficult to say what happened and how from just the video though, there may well have been 10 minutes of circumstances leading up to the few minutes shown. I think it's harsh to judge someone who has been attacked after the event. Maybe he was drunk and disoriented already and the blows were made worse by that, maybe he had been hit before he comes into the camera's view. We could pick apart his "performance" there but does that mean anyone here would do any better. I can tell you one thing for certain though, curling up into a foetal position as has been suggested wouldn't have done anything for that guy when he was up against the sort of scummer who'd give him a boot long after he was clearly unconscious.

Here's a scarier thought for you. The girl who sits on him and rifles through his pockets? Well, one day, she'll have children... ugh.

Charlie3dan

Roper wrote: »

Here's a scarier thought for you. The girl who sits on him and rifles through his pockets? Well, one day, she'll have children... ugh.

As scary as the video is.....that is truly terrifying.

easyontheeye

interesting replies there, good to hear them, nice post Boru. I never gave much thought about that girl. make you wonder also if they have done that kind of thing before because they didnt seem alot concerned or worried that the guy was unconscious.

i'd really like to see inside their head and thoughts during that, surely if you give someone a beating like you have to think the guy could be dead?! putting aside how it started, what terrified me was the continued beating after he is face down unconscious. that is more than assault, thats attempted murder.

But as someone said, if your a good striker and can show that you can take one or two of them on and hurt them, chances are they will back away or give you a chance to escape.

Khannie

raah! wrote: »

If you do curl into a ball , the chances are you'll get hit in the body and head, as opposed to the face.... and what's a bit of body and head damage?

Honestly, I can see no reason to think that they'd stop at any time until you were unconscious (and obviously not even then). I think if you go to ground with scum like that you're f*cked one way or the other.

cowzerp

raah! wrote: »

I dunno if this "be ruthless" is the best idea (especially if you are not a particularily strong stricker). If you do curl into a ball , the chances are you'll get hit in the body and head, as opposed to the face....

This type of thing has happened to me alot in my lifetime, and I've never ever, not been able to run away

Thats the worst idea ever, you sound like a typical victim.

Dragan

raah! wrote: »

I dunno if this "be ruthless" is the best idea (especially if you are not a particularily strong stricker). If you do curl into a ball , the chances are you'll get hit in the body and head, as opposed to the face.... and what's a bit of body and head damage? (of course there's brain damage, but you could get that just as badly from a straight forward hit to the head).

This type of thing has happened to me alot in my lifetime, and I've never ever, not been able to run away

I missed this earlier but advocating taking vital organ damage over soft tissue damage is hardly the best way to go.

Mark Hamill

Boru wrote:

For instance at the recent Mick Coup seminar, hosted by David Leiws - a drill, not a scenario,

Whats the difference between a drill and a scenario?

Dragan

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Whats the difference between a drill and a scenario?

Scenario is largely theory and a slow walk through....a drill is done over and over again at pace, decent level of impact of blows etc. afaik.

dreamr

easyontheeye wrote: »

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/justice/article1486464.ece seeing this got me thinking, that unless your an animal fighter you aint getting out of this one by fighting
quote]

can some one copy and paste this article.. i cant get at it...

Boru.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Whats the difference between a drill and a scenario?

A drill is an abstract series of exercies designed to teach the student certain skills and responses. It does not replicate or in anyway come close to real life. It is used simply to teach a concept or technqiue. For instance ANY pad based work is a drill. You aren't hitting a human being, you're hitting a pad with a white dot on the end of someone's hand. Unless you are magically attacked by aliens with white dot pads for a head, or on their hands, this is will always be a drill. A drill is abstract. I would go as far as to say sparring is a drill.

A scenario, is a realistic replication of a given incident. Often full speed, full power. Realisitc enviroment, inititation etc.

A drill is where you are taught and learn certain aspects of a fight. This is abstract and unrealistic. A sceanario is a complete realisitic replication where those technqiues are applied.

Easy anaolgy. A drill is like a golf range, you practice your swing from a set position and there is no real stake. A scenario is taking the skill from the golf range and applying it to a game of golf on a golf course. As realisitic as competition, but without pressure. Real life then would be the PGA Tour. And you have about as much chance of getting attacked as you do being in the PGA tour.

Colm_OReilly

Oooh my skill-technique alarm went off there!

I would have agreed with Dragan's definitions, and do, but judging by Boru's definitions above a drill cannot develop skill, as it does not involve increasing difficulty in terms of timing, resistance, or space.

Perhaps this is coming down to the fuzzy explanation of "drill" by Boru, as he includes sparring in this, but also says it's "abstract and unrealistic".

As for golf, golf has no skill, just a sh!t load of technique. No environmental factors change rapidly enough to cause a change of technique during execution.

But all this is just coming down to misinterpretation that comes with lenghtly verbal descriptions of things that can easily be shown on a video. Have you a vid of something like that, Boru?

Dragan

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

I would have agreed with Dragan's definitions, and do, but judging by Boru's definitions above a drill cannot develop skill, as it does not involve increasing difficulty in terms of timing, resistance, or space.

The joy of language is it's maleable nature and how "term" is really just the bitch of "interpretation"!

cowzerp

Boru. wrote: »

I would go as far as to say sparring is a drill.

A scenario, is a realistic replication of a given incident. Often full speed, full power. Realisitc enviroment, inititation etc.

A drill is where you are taught and learn certain aspects of a fight. This is abstract and unrealistic. A sceanario is a complete realisitic replication where those technqiues are applied.

A drill? sparring in competitive arts such as muay thai, boxing etc is more real than a martial arts scenario where its all compliant!

in sparring both are trying to dominate each other. are you somehow saying that sparring is not and that fake scenario situations are more real?

in a true scenario situation you would have to be caught off guard and attacked with full intent and force, this does not happen, its bbasiocally been hopped on.

Roper

We all try and replicate what we're training for as best we can. Scenarios, drills or whatever you call them can never achieve that no matter how much you try to make them as there is always the safety net of knowing that it isn't the real thing. Equally, sparring for boxing, mma etc. doesn't have the crowd, the heat, the adrenaline and so on.

Boru.

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Oooh my skill-technique alarm went off there!

I would have agreed with Dragan's definitions, and do, but judging by Boru's definitions above a drill cannot develop skill, as it does not involve increasing difficulty in terms of timing, resistance, or space.

Of course it can. Drills are used to develop skill, timing, space etc. To learn those technqiues and practice those same skills. Increasingly complex pad work, movement, and timing are all incorperated. But it's still abstract. It's still a white dot your learning to hit. Not a person.

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Perhaps this is coming down to the fuzzy explanation of "drill" by Boru, as he includes sparring in this, but also says it's "abstract and unrealistic".

If it was fuzzy I apologize, I tried to make myself clear and easily understandable. Yes, to me, sparring is unrealistic and abstract. It's not that it doesn't have benefit, it certainly does, speed, timing co-ordination, reaction etc, but sparring is sparring, not realistic fight training. As I mentioned in the above clip, this fight started from a blow from behind, as do many real fights. I have rarely seen a real fight start by squaring off, with a ref, bowing, or touching gloves. That's sparring a useful tool and drill, NOT a realisitic scenario or realistic confrontation. It's just not how it happens. If you think that a street fight starts with a bow, handshake and touching of gloves, I'm very worried for you. I've explained this at length previously and if you can't understand my point by now you're not going to.

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

As for golf, golf has no skill, just a sh!t load of technique. No environmental factors change rapidly enough to cause a change of technique during execution.

Perhaps it was a poor analogy, but practicing on a range is completely different from different countours or levels on the ground, being in the rough, in the sand, uneven syrafaces etc. It's far more realistic than simply standing on a even unchanging surface on the range. I think that was clear enough to be understood.

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

But all this is just coming down to misinterpretation that comes with lenghtly verbal descriptions of things that can easily be shown on a video. Have you a vid of something like that, Boru?

I would say it is a simple miscommunication as always. I have many many hours of video footage, of drills, inclduing members of this forum, but at the same time I wouldn't publish any of it online without written consent from the participants. As always Colm, my door is always open, you're welcome to drop by any time and I'd be more than happy to spend a few hours answering your questions and exploring any aspect you have trouble with.

Boru.

cowzerp wrote: »

A drill? sparring in competitive arts such as muay thai, boxing etc is more real than a martial arts scenario where its all compliant!

in sparring both are trying to dominate each other. are you somehow saying that sparring is not and that fake scenario situations are more real?

in a true scenario situation you would have to be caught off guard and attacked with full intent and force, this does not happen, its bbasiocally been hopped on.

Again, no disagreement form me. Muay Thai, boxing sparring etc is certainly more real than a compliant scenario. But I don't practice compliant scenarios. Nor do any reality based pracitioners worth their salt. As you correctly pointed out, it aint real. Scenario's are not compliant, opponents resisit full force, full power. Thier goal is to make usre you don't win.

As above, in my reply to Colm, sparring has uses, but iut's sparring not realisitic combat training. Please read that post for a more indepth explanation.

Yes, again I agree with you completely, a true scenario situation does involve being caught off guard. Which we do. You don't when, if or how you will be attacked, you may not even be attacked. That's kinda the point.

Boru.

Roper wrote: »

We all try and replicate what we're training for as best we can. Scenarios, drills or whatever you call them can never achieve that no matter how much you try to make them as there is always the safety net of knowing that it isn't the real thing. Equally, sparring for boxing, mma etc. doesn't have the crowd, the heat, the adrenaline and so on.

Very true.

phoenix-MT

well actually boru in the uk this is unfortunetly now a common thing however it being reported is uncommon therefore you do not see it in the news that much. Crime statistics are aload of **** as they only show reported crimes. like this guy who would have woke up on his own if there had been no cctv, what is he going to report after being knocked out?

I think maybe its time we all look at our "reality" training whether you want to call it drilling or scenarios as the whole physcological side of aggression is evolving. We are seeing a new type of threat, and its more lethal than any that we have taught or trained for before........unprovoked
attacks.

I found out that one of my students many years ago was walking home and got bottled from behind for no reason, i can appreciate this as the same thing happend to me. had a few to drink, wobbling a little bit walking home with a mate. lots of people around so was fairly at ease when all of a sudden some little s*** came up behind me, smashed a bottle in my face and ran away!

Curling up into a ball is what they want, like it has been mentioned they are looking for 'prey' . Maybe they would think twice if every person started fighting back, after all who else is going to sort them out....the courts?? For those of you who believe in the workings of a justice system let me put this to you......when i was working and came accross scum like this every day, having an ASBO was like us having a world title in our martial arts. Its pride to walk around with a ankle tag or some sort of curfue because it makes them think and feel 'gangster'!! Im all for walking away and turning the other cheek but no in these types of incidents im not.

Sorry for the spelling and just to clear something up im not hinting on starting some sort of vigilante organisation, although if someone does................gimme a call

Nothingcompares

I love colm's discussions on skill/technique. because I often think I know what he means and then he goes and says something that confuses me. To take the golf example, I would consider the skill inherent in golf is the application of the technique. So let's say the average semi-pro golfer has 14 clubs in his bag, I'd suggest he has 2/3 different shots he can play with each club. This gives him let's say 40 different shots he can play from any position. Next you tie in the wind, slope, surface of the point you're striking from and surface of the point you're aiming for. The skill is using your experience and your intuition to play the right shot at the right time. I think golf is a lot like jiujitsu but in slow slow slow motion.

TKD SC

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I love colm's discussions on skill/technique. because I often think I know what he means and then he goes and says something that confuses me. To take the golf example, I would consider the skill inherent in golf is the application of the technique. So let's say the average semi-pro golfer has 14 clubs in his bag, I'd suggest he has 2/3 different shots he can play with each club. This gives him let's say 40 different shots he can play from any position. Next you tie in the wind, slope, surface of the point you're striking from and surface of the point you're aiming for. The skill is using your experience and your intuition to play the right shot at the right time. I think golf is a lot like jiujitsu but in slow slow slow motion.

Ha ha! I never get his golf comments either! To me golf is extremely skillful! That's why I gave it up! Talk to any low handicap golfer and tell them it's not skillful! Surely skill is being able to do something well? The skill of doing the perfect golf technique, i.e. the swing? And many many variable conditions come into play. Anyway, prob all down to definitions, and this isnt the golf forum!!

My two cent would be:
- Have general kop on / awareness (without resorting to being Jack Bauer*!)
- Stay calm, relaxed, don't lose temper
- Learn how to hit very hard (hopefully not needed) and how to Sprint

If g/f / wife / family / parents with you, then not sure...

I'm convinced that of say about 2/3 different "altercations" a few years back that due to my calm nature (and also a friend that was with me that doesnt drink) that we difused a situation(s) that could otherwise have escalated if for example I was a hot head. Not saying turn the other cheek but I did find simply staying calm and talking did help alot. Obviously a random "jumped on" attack in a dark alleyway is different to this (in which case pt 1 & 3 above apply), but most "street fights" are usually outside a pub / club where lots of drink is involved and people try to act tough.



* I wish I was Jack Bauer!

Colm_OReilly

I'll answer your skill/technique questions tomorrow, but yeah it's great how people will get upset with it.

TKD SC

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/families-in-pitched-battle-1443186.html

worth a quick look from paper today...not something I'd like to be caught in the middle of with all my "Kung Fu Fighting" skills...

Charlie3dan

Some great advice; allbeit entirely obvious to those who utilise it.

1: Be a nice person

2: Go to nice places

3: Hang around with nice people.


This kid probably knew his attackers and this was probably some kind of feud. The guy decided to walk down a secluded area alone. I'm not saying for a second that this guy deserved what he got but it's worth noting.

Of course, that advice is just one aspect of self defence; but not everyone is getting it right.

Havo

You can be the nicest person in the world and these scumbags are still going to attack ya regardless...

Charlie3dan

You're fogetting number 2 and number 3 there Havo

Havo

Charlie3dan wrote: »

You're fogetting number 2 and number 3 there Havo

I go to nice places and i hang around with lovely people...hasnt stopped me from being attacked by the likes of them people in de video... i honestly think its bein in de wrong place at the wrong time and ders not much ye can do about avoiding dem situations if theyre dead set on wantin to bash ya... just leg it if ya can

Baggio...

Havo wrote: »

I go to nice places and i hang around with lovely people...hasnt stopped me from being attacked by the likes of them people in de video... i honestly think its bein in de wrong place at the wrong time and ders not much ye can do about avoiding dem situations if theyre dead set on wantin to bash ya... just leg it if ya can

I totally agree with you.

B.

Charlie3dan

Havo wrote: »

i honestly think its bein in de wrong place at the wrong time and ders not much ye can do about avoiding dem situations

I would completely disagree with you.

Of course, attacks can be completely random and I'm not saying these rules are a steadfast way to ensure you'll never be attacked.

BUT, I think there's a hell of alot you can do to avoid being attacked.

Havo wrote: »

if theyre dead set on wantin to bash ya

Before it ever gets to that stage.

Baggio...

Charlie3dan wrote: »

BUT, I think there's a hell of alot you can do to avoid being attacked.

Yeah, that's just stating the obvious... We all know about "awareness, avoidance and escape".

Try explaining your three rules to the crims.

I had a mate who was recently attacked in a video shop where he works (robbery). There were few a home invasions down here, and a few guys were badly beaten.

I suppose these guys were not playing safe according to your rules, being in their own home and places of work. :rolleyes:

Dragan

Baggio... wrote: »

Yeah, that's just stating the obvious... We all know about "awareness, avoidance and escape".

Try explaining your three rules to the crims.

I had a mate who was recently attacked in a video shop where he works (robbery). There were few a home invasions down here, and a few guys were badly beaten.

I suppose these guys were not playing safe according to your rules, being in their own home and places of work. :rolleyes:

There are always going to be unfortunate victims of circumstance sadly.

Statistically speaking though you can drop you chances as we all know however it does not mean that nothing will ever happen.

Baggio...

Dragan wrote: »

Statistically speaking though you can drop you chances as we all know however it does not mean that nothing will ever happen.

Absolutely mate, I totally agree with you. It's better not to be there in the first place. We always train to avoid any hassle where possible (soft skills first then the hard skills, and that's only assuming you can't run away).

It's just that I hear that same old tropes over and over again. "If was probably his fault" Or "it's a feud", "he's in a bad area". It's all just total speculation...

Most trouble can be avoided, but as you said there will always be victims, no matter where they are, or whoever they hang out with.

Scumbags don't adhere to all the rules unfortunately.

Charlie3dan

Baggio... wrote: »

Yeah, that's just stating the obvious... We all know about "awareness, avoidance and escape".

I did say this stuff was obvious

Baggio... wrote: »

I had a mate who was recently attacked in a video shop where he works (robbery). There were few a home invasions down here, and a few guys were badly beaten.

I also said random attacks will still happen.

Baggio... wrote: »

I suppose these guys were not playing safe according to your rules, being in their own home and places of work. :rolleyes:

I too shall use the roll eyes on that one:rolleyes:

Roper

Baggio... wrote: »

It's just that I hear that same old tropes over and over again. "If was probably his fault" Or "it's a feud", "he's in a bad area". It's all just total speculation...

Yeah but so is everything when it comes to a news story. ESPECIALLY a news story in that well known truth organ The Sun, who would literally say anything to sell papers.

Baggio...

Roper wrote: »

ESPECIALLY a news story in that well known truth organ The Sun, who would literally say anything to sell papers.

I agree... The is a lot of media hype and I don't trust much of what I read. None of us were there, so WE don't know the full circumstances that surrounded this event - as I said it's pure speculation for us to say what happened. You can make a hypothesis, but that's all it is.

Also, I'm not really referring to this attack per se. I'm just saying, in general, that you could do all the right things, and still be attacked.

I do acknowledge the fact that random attacks are relatively rare, and it's quite unlikely to happen if you are "switched on" and actively stay out of trouble.

But having talked to quite a few of the guys down here, who i train with, and also talking to one of my Dads best mates, who is one of the top Garda's. There seems is a pretty dramatic rise in these unprovoked, and nonsensical attacks.