Why have Diesel / Petrol prices not come down?

patravers

I mean the price of oil has fropped by over $20 a barrell and still no reduction in prices at the pump,,, and i amso see BP made 39 million sterling a day in profit for the last quarter up 28%

dade

coz oil companies are greedy b'stards?

it's strange when the price of oil per barrel goes up it's immediately reflected at the pump, even though the garage paid a lower price for that fuel but when it goes down nothing happens.

kayos

fuel prices in Galway had appeared to have fallen when I was down at the weekend when comparing to the previous weekend.

But generally ya price goes up in seconds and takes weeks to go back down if it all.

Oil wells -> Depots -> Refinaries -> Forecourt

This process takes time. On any given oil tanker, the oil on it may change hands hunreds of times before it reaches it destination. That doesn't mean the cheaper oil has reached the petrol in forecourts yet.

Honey-ec

ronoc wrote: »

Oil wells -> Depots -> Refinaries -> Forecourt

This process takes time. On any given oil tanker, the oil on it may change hands hunreds of times before it reaches it destination. That doesn't mean the cheaper oil has reached the petrol in forecourts yet.

But the issue everyone has with this is that it should take an equal amount of time for any increases in oil prices to hit the forecourt, and we all know that that just doesn't happen.

Zonda999

Petrol prices in my local statoil have come down from 134.9 last week to 132.9 today.Better than nothing i suppose but we are still getting ripped off

Honey-ec

Honey-ec wrote: »

But the issue everyone has with this is that it should take an equal amount of time for any increases in oil prices to hit the forecourt, and we all know that that just doesn't happen.

Nope.
Oil companies hedge their fuel costs buy buying large amounts of oil. Depending on their strategy they may have a few days or weeks of oil at a certain price.
Two stations may get the exact same petrol but its possible they are paying different prices.

Heroditas

I've seen some considerable drops in the last week in Dublin - the petrol stations on the N4 are really dropping very quickly. Texaco at the Foxhunter is now 128.9 I think for petrol and the Shell by Palmerstown is the same.

L1011

Thats not a Shell in Palmerston...

Benchmark Fuelcard is 127.50, first time its been competitive in months really.

Danbo!

Only 126.9 for unleaded at the texaco spawell. (this was on saturday, not sure about today, and there were queues)

Run_to_da_hills

The reason it takes so long for the price to come down is because the service stations paid the premium rate for their fuel when it was at its highest. They must get rid of this stock first and hen they top up again at a cheaper rate they will pass it on to the consumer.

OldmanMondeo

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The reason it takes so long for the price to come down is because the service stations paid the premium rate for their fuel when it was at its highest.

Yet they shoot the price uop as soon as they can. Petrol stations will take over where pubs were in the 90's, licence to print money. Greedy B*****ds.

L1011

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Yet they shoot the price uop as soon as they can. Petrol stations will take over where pubs were in the 90's, licence to print money. Greedy B*****ds.

Believe me, petrol stations make extremely little money - why do you think more than 50% of them have closed in the past decade?

Omcd

noblestee wrote: »

Only 126.9 for unleaded at the texaco spawell. (this was on saturday, not sure about today, and there were queues)

124.9 when I passed yesterday if I'm not mistaken.

Run_to_da_hills

MYOB wrote: »

Believe me, petrol stations make extremely little money - why do you think more than 50% of them have closed in the past decade?

Im riding a bike and Its got to the stage now where I have to keep my eye on the tank driving around the city, If one runs out of Juice in BlackRock or Deansgrange its on hell of a push to the next nearest filling station, :eek:

L1011

Has the Texaco in Blackrock gone then?

Cionád

MYOB wrote: »

Has the Texaco in Blackrock gone then?

Yep

Run_to_da_hills

Cionád wrote: »

Yep

It was bought out by greedy proprety developers like most of them, I believe the Blackrock Clinic owns the site now.

Cookie_Monster

MYOB wrote: »

Has the Texaco in Blackrock gone then?

yeah but merrion gates one is still there

MYOB

MYOB wrote: »

Believe me, petrol stations make extremely little money - why do you think more than 50% of them have closed in the past decade?

Yep I know someone that ran one. The margin on the petrol didn't cover the costs to run the station. The only way many of those stations make any money is the shop.

dubmick

same with most stations

kluivert

Diesel down 6c
Petrol down 4c at my local garage.

Well done to was it....BP Shell who made 6.75b in profit, thats 37m in profit a day.

Thats PROFIT not Revenue.

Imagine the tax exchequers face reading the reports this morning thinking "we're on a win off here".

Cionád

Oil price down another 3 dollars so far today to $121 a barrel.

Zonda999

Isnt ussually what happens in this situation is that the sheikhs cut production and it heads back up once again?

Run_to_da_hills

Cionád wrote: »

Oil price down another 3 dollars so far today to $121 a barrel.

How big is a barrel?? Often wondered.

L1011

35 gallons / 158 litres.

Remember that not all of this can be converted to petrol + there are refining costs. Its not a case of price of barrel divided by 158 = pretax on litre.

Cionád

Zonda999 wrote: »

Isnt ussually what happens in this situation is that the sheikhs cut production and it heads back up once again?

Some of Nigeria's Shell production has been cut due to rebel attacks recently, other than that production has not been cut in a good while. The reason it's falling at the moment is a drop in demand in the US domestic market, something like 3.5% less miles are being driven overall I think.



1 barrel of oil = 158.987295 liters

Joseph Kuhr

Honey-ec wrote: »

But the issue everyone has with this is that it should take an equal amount of time for any increases in oil prices to hit the forecourt, and we all know that that just doesn't happen.

Takes the same amount of time. About 3-4 weeks. Of course garages have different prices, so I could get petrol for 1.23 today and then tomorrow go to a different garage and get it for 1.28 and lo and behold petrol has gone up by 5 cent in 1 day its a complete outrage!!

Sully

Localy, Statoil shoot up the price at the talk of price increases. They take a long time to come down. Its been 128.9 for some time now, and its dropped a cent today. Tesco dropped to 125.9 but raised back up to 127.9 recently. One local garrage, is 123.9 but always offerers the cheaper (at 120.9 for a long time).

Outside of the city, prices are much more expensive. I think we have been lucky.

Heroditas

Texaco at the Foxhunter - 127.9 this evening. Cheapest I've seen petrol in the area for two months I think.

JHMEG

kluivert wrote: »

Diesel down 6c
Petrol down 4c at my local garage.

Well done to was it....BP Shell who made 6.75b in profit, thats 37m in profit a day.

Thats PROFIT not Revenue.

Imagine the tax exchequers face reading the reports this morning thinking "we're on a win off here".

But it's ok, perfectly acceptable, as they only make slight less than 1c per litre of petrol sold, or so they say.

L1011

JHMEG wrote: »

But it's ok, perfectly acceptable, as they only make slight less than 1c per litre of petrol sold, or so they say.

retailers vs. fuel distributors/refiners/etc

The retailers in Ireland are often sole trader franchisers, or may own a few stations. These are the lads making a cent a litre and running off their shop (I've a distant relation who owns a very remote Topaz franchise and makes more off phone credit every week!).

The fact that we've lost half the stations in the country in ten years* shows that the retailers cannot reduce their margins any further. And I don't see how they can really manage to make the effective market-set price of oil come down either.

*before anyone says 'property development, land prices caused them to close', theres lots of stations which were closed and are still there - closed. As well as streetfront ones in smaller towns where the attached pub or shop is still there. It may be accurate in Dublin city centre, but it doesn't explain anywhere else.

JHMEG

MYOB wrote: »

retailers vs. fuel distributors/refiners/etc

The retailers in Ireland are often sole trader franchisers, or may own a few stations. These are the lads making a cent a litre and running off their shop (I've a distant relation who owns a very remote Topaz franchise and makes more off phone credit every week!).

The fact that we've lost half the stations in the country in ten years* shows that the retailers cannot reduce their margins any further. And I don't see how they can really manage to make the effective market-set price of oil come down either.

*before anyone says 'property development, land prices caused them to close', theres lots of stations which were closed and are still there - closed. As well as streetfront ones in smaller towns where the attached pub or shop is still there. It may be accurate in Dublin city centre, but it doesn't explain anywhere else.

I'd take a more cynical view:
1. Those that could get very rich very quick on property did so, and
2. Wholesalers supply at different prices to different petrol stations. Some petrol stations have gone bust because they cannot compete with the guy down the road as their supplier is charging them too much. eg there was a guy in Finglas on RTE news saying his wholesale price was dearer than the retail price of his nearest competitor down the road.

Guy:Incognito

I think we can prettyconclusivly say that the thread name is false. Prices have most definately fallen. Might not be by as much as some people would like, but they are certainly down.

As for the reasons for prices fallign slowly, can anyone here honestly say that if they owned a garage they would be tryign to push prices down as much as possible?Why are people complaining about BP making huge profits. They are a company, their sole aim is to make as much money as possible, which they are doing brilliantly, if oil wasnt something we all need nobody would give a crap how much money they were making.

Bee

patravers wrote: »

I mean the price of oil has fropped by over $20 a barrell and still no reduction in prices at the pump,,, and i amso see BP made 39 million sterling a day in profit for the last quarter up 28%

Oh dear bear with me whilst I get political.

Because there is no competition authority here with any interest in the consumer.

It is obvious to anyone that prices rise instantly at the least whim whilst never coming down either at the same speed or the same amount.

The Fianna Fail/Green government pays lip service to consumers

You are advised to "shop around" for the best bargains as if that will drive down the price when there is a virtual cartel in operation.

Remember the recent news items on clothing etc in N. ireland from the same retailer on sale in southern Ireland being 20% to 30% cheaper in the North?
A basket of groceries being the sold in the North again 20% to 30% cheaper even after the euro conversion?

The so called minister had "talks" with retailers, what happened, the dual labeling of Sterling and Euros that showed how much of a rip-off is going on in clothing items in the South has now, in many cases has simply being blanked out.

We are still told to shop around. Have prices come down by a comparable amount? No.

The other major issue is that Fianna Fail has mismanaged the economy so badly that it needs as much tax and excise revenue as it can grab and remember the major cost of fuel at the pumps is taken by the government. It has a vested interest in high fuel prices.

To make matters worse the Green party now totally turned into the FiannaFailGreen party has two wingnut ministers in government. They are zealously arguing for a joke "carbon tax" on fuel to "save the planet" from greenhouse gas emissions so they are happy to have high fuel costs with the idiotic belief that somehow that will curb so called Global warming. Obviously mankind contributes minuteley to co2 emissions but there is a natural climate cycle behind the events, conveniently ignored by the global warming junkies and the UN to further the political ambitions of the developing countries.

So we buy less fuel in Ireland and lower the worlds C02 emissions? What a farce!

To put things into perspective, China alone is building fossil fueled power stations at the rate of 2 a month whilst its car ownership is increasing at a staggering rate "From January to June 2007, 3.08 million passenger vehicles were sold nationwide, up 22.3%. The total included 2.29 million cars, up 25.9%, 107,000 MPVs (multi-purpose vehicles, known as minivans in North America), up 12.9%, and 158,000 SUVs (sport-utility vehicles), up 39.3%.

By the end of June 2007, more than 13 million cars in China were privately owned, up 16% over the end of last year, according to the Ministry of Public Security."

With the vested interests in Government and the apparent cartel operation in place why do you expect prices to come down?

Before anyone asks I have no political party loyalty to any party in or out of power

Clare_Guy

MYOB wrote: »

retailers vs. fuel distributors/refiners/etc

The retailers in Ireland are often sole trader franchisers, or may own a few stations. These are the lads making a cent a litre and running off their shop (I've a distant relation who owns a very remote Topaz franchise and makes more off phone credit every week!).

The fact that we've lost half the stations in the country in ten years* shows that the retailers cannot reduce their margins any further. And I don't see how they can really manage to make the effective market-set price of oil come down either.

*before anyone says 'property development, land prices caused them to close', theres lots of stations which were closed and are still there - closed. As well as streetfront ones in smaller towns where the attached pub or shop is still there. It may be accurate in Dublin city centre, but it doesn't explain anywhere else.

All bull crap! The average gross margin on petrol/diesel at a retail petrol station is about 7%. For a necessity that requires no work (self-service) and has few overheads. Seems more than fair.

If you do indeed have a "distant relation" making more off phone credit than fuel , it says much more about the cost of phone credit.

The fact that we've lost some petrol stations simply shows there was too many stations and less stations means there is more business for the remaining ones.

It's simple economics that when the value of a property exceeds the "opportunity value" of a business it will inevitably be sold or redeveloped. The fact that some stations have closed and not redeveloped yet is just a symptom of the current economic climate.

The amount of consolidation and redevelopment in the retail fuel market shows just how viable and profitable a business it is.

Helix

MYOB wrote: »

r
The retailers in Ireland are often sole trader franchisers, or may own a few stations. These are the lads making a cent a litre and running off their shop (I've a distant relation who owns a very remote Topaz franchise and makes more off phone credit every week!).

having worked in a garage a few years ago, and being privvy to the cost price of fuel versus pump price, i can say for certain that a cent a litre is nowhere near what they make

Guy:Incognito

Bee wrote: »

Oh dear bear with me whilst I get political.

Because there is no competition authority here with any interest in the consumer.

It is obvious to anyone that prices rise instantly at the least whim whilst never coming down either at the same speed or the same amount.

The Fianna Fail/Green government pays lip service to consumers

You are advised to "shop around" for the best bargains as if that will drive down the price when there is a virtual cartel in operation.

So what are all the great competition authorities doing differently elswhere seeing as it's pretty much standard fare everywhere.

The companies that want to trade here are here. The government cant force more petrol retailers to come here and start trading.

Bee wrote: »

Remember the recent news items on clothing etc in N. ireland from the same retailer on sale in southern Ireland being 20% to 30% cheaper in the North?
A basket of groceries being the sold in the North again 20% to 30% cheaper even after the euro conversion?

The so called minister had "talks" with retailers, what happened, the dual labeling of Sterling and Euros that showed how much of a rip-off is going on in clothing items in the South has now, in many cases has simply being blanked out.

Maybe the minister should lower the minimum wage to the same as the north ( and equalise rents/ tax/ all costs).
Or would that not suit people.

JHMEG

Stekelly wrote: »

So what are all the great competition authorities doing differently elswhere seeing as it's pretty much standard fare everywhere.

The companies that want to trade here are here. The government cant force more petrol retailers to come here and start trading.

Bee's post regarding prices in NI and the Republic are fairly accurate. Prices in Tesco were seen to be as much as 110% more expensive here than in NI, with prices on average being I think 30% higher here. And that's just Tesco.

You should take a trip up to Newry yourself and compare prices. It's a real eye opener.

Guy:Incognito

JHMEG wrote: »

Bee's post regarding prices in NI and the Republic are fairly accurate. Prices in Tesco were seen to be as much as 110% more expensive here than in NI, with prices on average being I think 30% higher here. And that's just Tesco.

You should take a trip up to Newry yourself and compare prices. It's a real eye opener.

I've been plenty of times.

He was answering a question about why petrol prices havent dropped. (at least thats what he quoated anyway)

At the end of the day Tesca can sell a can of beans here for €100 and give them away free in the north if they want. It's their shop and their stock. We can afford to pay more so we do, simple economics.

People in Spain have less money so they pay less. Thats why, coupled with good weather, it's a great place to go on holiday.

JHMEG

Stekelly wrote: »

I've been plenty of times.

Were you not shocked?

Bee

Stekelly wrote: »

So what are all the great competition authorities doing differently elswhere seeing as it's pretty much standard fare everywhere.

The companies that want to trade here are here. The government cant force more petrol retailers to come here and start trading.


Maybe the minister should lower the minimum wage to the same as the north ( and equalise rents/ tax/ all costs).
Or would that not suit people.

Maybe the relevant minister would adjust the tax that they rake in to favour the consumer? Not a chance! and by the way you make an excellent point about more petrol retailers not wanting to come here. the market is stitched up in a virtual monopoly by the current companies so there is little reason for anyone else to enter it

Guy:Incognito

JHMEG wrote: »

Were you not shocked?

No. I understand how economics work.

JHMEG

I see you've editted your post.

Stekelly wrote: »

At the end of the day Tesca can sell a can of beans here for €100 and give them away free in the north if they want. It's their shop and their stock. We can afford to pay more so we do, simple economics.

You may be happy with that, I'm not. It's because of idiots who are happy with that that the rest of go to NI regularly to do big shops, and save a load while we're at it.

Clare_Guy

Stekelly wrote: »

I've been plenty of times.

He was answering a question about why petrol prices havent dropped. (at least thats what he quoated anyway)

At the end of the day Tesca can sell a can of beans here for €100 and give them away free in the north if they want. It's their shop and their stock. We can afford to pay more so we do, simple economics.

People in Spain have less money so they pay less. Thats why, coupled with good weather, it's a great place to go on holiday.

The actual only "simple economics" is that people/companies will charge what they can get away with!

JHMEG

Clare_Guy wrote: »

The actual only "simple economics" is that people/companies will charge what they can get away with!

And they can get away with lots in this shithole of a county.

Guy:Incognito

JHMEG wrote: »

I see you've editted your post..

I just added more as I thought of it, didnt change anything

JHMEG wrote: »

You may be happy with that, I'm not. It's because of idiots who are happy with that that the rest of go to NI regularly to do big shops, and save a load while we're at it.

But why stop there? People in Spain, Greece, Russia , China etc are paying less again. The fact that we happen to share a land border with the Uk doesnt change the fact that it's a different country, with different taxes, rents, wages etc. If pur prices drop to below theirs or theirs raise to above ours, will people be campaignign on behlf of the poor oppressed northerners?

Where are the calls for more fuel tax to take us up in line with the Northern prices?

Clare_Guy wrote: »

The actual only "simple economics" is that people/companies will charge what they can get away with!

Thats exactly what economics is.

Its the same in every country. Companies charge what the market can bear.

JHMEG

Stekelly wrote: »

will people be campaignign on behlf of the poor oppressed northerners?

Hold on. Simple economics dictates if they are paying more, they are doing so because they can afford it. Right?

No. As Clare Guy pointed out, prices are directly proportional to the amount of fools. We had an ecomonic boom for about 10 years and as a result we've plenty of big spenders who don't remember the 80s, don't know the value of money, and are happy just to pay up. The simple economics is the fools put the prices up for the rest of us, who lived through the 80s, and remember how fcuked up things were (try 15% interest on your mortgage, or 20% unemployment, for example). We're *fortunate* that we share a land border with the UK. We'd be completely screwed if we didn't.

Guy:Incognito

JHMEG wrote: »

Hold on. Simple economics dictates if they are paying more, they are doing so because they can afford it. Right?

No. As Clare Guy pointed out, prices are directly proportional to the amount of fools. We had an ecomonic boom for about 10 years and as a result we've plenty of big spenders who don't remember the 80s, don't know the value of money, and are happy just to pay up. The simple economics is the fools put the prices up for the rest of us. We're *fortunate* that we share a land border with the UK. We'd be completely screwed if we didn't.

As a result of our economic boom everyone started earning more (everyone actually had a job too) so the market could bear higher prices. It's not going to happen that people have more money and prices stay the same, thats just not a realistic option.

And again, why bother with the UK, why not focus on a much lower priced economy and say we should be paying Russian (for example) prices?

Clare_Guy

Stekelly wrote: »

Thats exactly what economics is.

Its the same in every country. Companies charge what the market can bear.

in a free competitive market it's competition that drives price, not what the market can bare. the irish market is based on what the basta*ds can get away with. Look at tesco. Competition changed prices, not what the market could bare.

JHMEG

Stekelly wrote: »

As a result of our economic boom everyone started earning more (everyone actually had a job too) so the market could bear higher prices. It's not going to happen that people have more money and prices stay the same, thats just not a realistic option.

Unemployment is growing at the fastest rate in history. Are prices coming down to match?

In addition to what Clare Guy says above, think of the US, the richest nation on earth. Charging "what the market can bare" doesn't wash there as people know the value of money (where's Tesco in the US?)