Is a farmer entitled to shoot my dogs?

IrishHomer

Just wondering if anyone knows the law,

A while back a neighbouring farmer called to my house and said my 9yr old jackrussel and my 2yr old German Shepherd ware next door worrying and chasing his sheep. I never eally believed this as the Jackrussel had lived beside the sheep for 9yrs of his life and he never bothered them before. The GSD was also a big eegit who followed the Jackrussel everywhere and the Jackrussel was boss. I firmly believe that the farmer just took a dislike to my dogs as the GSD looked scary to the sheep even though he was a gently teddy bear.

Anyway we went out looking for the dogs and this was most unusual as they had never ever before went missing/straying like this before. After 2 hours of searching we gave up.

Ten minutes later the farmer called o the door and said he had just shot the dogs and i had to go collect them on his land.

Just wondering are farmer legally entitled to do this? I thought i heard something a few years ago where a farmer was taken to court and the dog owner won the case?

brianthebard

Yea he is if they are threatening his livestock.

cherubaul

yes as far as I'm aware its the truth of it. They are allowed to do so and unfortunately as you were not present when it happened if it goes to court under oath he is telling the truth even if he's lying. the fact remains the animals strayed onto his land he deemed them rightly or wrongly to be worrying his flock and eliminated them.

On a side note i'm sorry for your loss its a very hard thing to have to come to terms with I lost a dog to a farmer after the farmer said he was worrying sheep. Unfortunately for the farmer he lost sheep when they escaped and started causing damage to my property.

peasant

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1960/en/act/pub/0017/sec0004.html#zza17y1960s4

4.—In an action for damages for the shooting of a dog, it shall be a good defence if the defendant proves—

( a ) that the dog was shot when worrying livestock on agricultural land

( b ) that the livestock were lawfully on the land,

( c ) that the defendant was—
(i) the occupier of the land, a member of his family or a person employed by him, or
(ii) the owner of the livestock, a member of his family or a person employed by him, and
( d ) that the defendant notified the shooting within forty-eight hours to a member of the Gárda Síochána at the nearest Gárda Síochána station

The farmer gave you fair warning as well

also see the article in this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054922454&highlight=night

kerrysgold

It's up to you to keep your dogs in a properly fenced garden/enclosure. If they were killed by the farmer, it's your fault although I do think farmers can be a bit shoot-first-ask-questions-later. i.e. they shoot dogs that might just be in the field and not worrying the sheep (intentionally) at all. All they care about is the profit, it's not like they care about the actual sheep since they are only going to kill them anyway.

brianthebard

kerrysgold wrote: »

It's up to you to keep your dogs in a properly fenced garden/enclosure. If they were killed by the farmer, it's your fault although I do think farmers can be a bit shoot-first-ask-questions-later. i.e. they shoot dogs that might just be in the field and not worrying the sheep (intentionally) at all. All they care about is the profit, it's not like they care about the actual sheep since they are only going to kill them anyway.

thats uncalled for,if farmers got paid the same to let dogs kill their sheep slowly it doesn't mean they'd do it.Farmers may be inclined to shoot first (although from the op's post it seems they were warned?)but they aren't expected to allow a dog harass or attack livestock before stopping it from being able to.

BlackCat2008

I have to say I'm tiered of telling people in rural area's to keep there dogs inclosed in a safe garden as I've picked so many of the roads that were left to wonder if they weren't shoot by the farmer they probably would have been hit. More than one dog is considered a pack and a treat. The farmers are to happy trigger and should have told you he was going to shoot your dogs and gave you proper time to get them. All the same I'm sorry he did It's never easy to lose your pets. My thoughts are with you.

Sam Kade

kerrysgold wrote: »

All they care about is the profit, it's not like they care about the actual sheep since they are only going to kill them anyway.

If all they care about is profit they don't care about much as there is no profit in sheep farming nowadays. What are you saying that they should keep the sheep until they die naturally?

Wile E. Coyote

On a slightly side note. If my sole income was from breeding and selling expensive dogs and livestock from a neighbouring field gets into my garden and starts to tear up the place and scare the dogs do i have a right to kill them?

Wile E. Coyote

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

On a slightly side note. If my sole income was from breeding and selling expensive dogs and livestock from a neighbouring field gets into my garden and starts to tear up the place and scare the dogs do i have a right to kill them?

Name a type of livestock that is a carnivorne?

Wile E. Coyote

There was nothing in any of the posts to say that the animals ate or killed any of the livestock and as peasant posted the dogs could be legally killed for worrying the animals. Does it work if the livestock are worrying my sole income?

Wile E. Coyote

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

There was nothing in any of the posts to say that the animals ate or killed any of the livestock and as peasant posted the dogs could be legally killed for worrying the animals. Does it work if the livestock are worrying my sole income?

I have yet to meet a dog that was threathened by a sheep.
Or a dog that drooped death from worry.

Wile E. Coyote

The term livestock does not just refer to sheep. It also refers to cattle, pigs horses and a multitude of other animals. Have you ever seen a dog get a kick from a bull or a horse? It can easily kill them.

OP sorry for slightly derailing your thread but just wanted to know if it works both ways.

kowloon

I don't have a dog anymore, my old dog was really well behaved and she never left our land, but you can't be sure with a new one.
I've seen what dogs do to sheep and it causes the sheep a lot of distress, they often tear at the sheeps back legs and get bored and leave (they dont need to kill it as they're already fed.).
The sheep I've seen that survived attacks had to be put down anyway.

peasant

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

The term livestock does not just refer to sheep. It also refers to cattle, pigs horses and a multitude of other animals. Have you ever seen a dog get a kick from a bull or a horse? It can easily kill them.

OP sorry for slightly derailing your thread but just wanted to know if it works both ways.

This is such a far fetched example, I'd say shoot first and ask later ...if and when it ever happens

Wile E. Coyote

It's not that far fetched. I had a small yorkshire terrier trampled by cattle that got into our garden a few years ago.

chickenhawk

Moonbaby wrote: »

I have yet to meet a dog that was threathened by a sheep.
Or a dog that drooped death from worry.

My dog (a collie which grew up on a farm) is scared of sheep. That is how we want her though because I go running through a mountain where there are sheep and I don't want her to even look at them.

As for the OP. Yes a farmer is entitled to shoot your dog. I know it must seem unfair to you and I am sure your dog was a saint and wouldn't hurt a fly (no sarcasm intended). My dog wouldn't hurt anything either and I would be upset if a farmer shot her (she is always by my side in other peoples property so I'd sue the crap out of him). But if I wasn't with her I would accept it.

Sam Kade

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

It's not that far fetched. I had a small yorkshire terrier trampled by cattle that got into our garden a few years ago.

You can claim any damages against the farmer. The reason a farmer can shoot dogs worrying his livestock is because he is protecting his livelihood.

brianthebard

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

It's not that far fetched. I had a small yorkshire terrier trampled by cattle that got into our garden a few years ago.

did the cattle attack your terrier,or was the dog running around them and get trampled as a result?Let us know how you get on after shooting someones livestock won't you?

Wile E. Coyote

Sam Kade wrote: »

You can claim any damages against the farmer. The reason a farmer can shoot dogs worrying his livestock is because he is protecting his livelihood.

And if i was a dog breeder would I not have a right to protect my livelihood?

chickenhawk

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

And if i was a dog breeder would I not have a right to protect my livelihood?

You do. And the next time the farmer is spreading slurry he could misjudge the distance and spray all over you house, garden, washing line etc. I've seen it done (nothing to do with me or my family but a person who moved over from germany and told my neighbour that he was farming wrong) the stink in the house was amazing. The person called the council and they said "you choose to live in the countryside, you put up with the country smells".

AngelicRaindrop

I hate seeing threads like this, i lost a dog a few years ago to a similar situation, a local farmer came to tell me he had seen my dobermann attacking a sheep the night before. she had been out but had he not said he had seen her i would have been sure she was around the house. i brought her to the vets and put her down rather than running the risk of her getting shot. 3 days later the farmer came backt o say i had to destroy my dog, she killed one of his sheep last night, i was so mad, i informed him my dog had been dead for 3 days, turns out it was a rottwieler not a dobermann killing his sheep, he saw a big black and tan dog and assumed it was mine.. talk about heart breaking

i have to say although the farmer gave warning before shooting them I do think he may have been a bit quick about doing it.

peasant

AngelicRaindrop wrote: »

i lost a dog a few years ago to a similar situation..i brought her to the vets and put her down rather than running the risk of her getting shot.

You "lost" the dog? And somehow it was the farmers fault ?

Emmm ...reality check required.

You had a healthy dog put down (how did the vet agree to this, btw?) because you couldn't be arsed to put up a proper fence.

AngelicRaindrop

peasant wrote: »

You "lost" the dog? And somehow it was the farmers fault ?

Emmm ...reality check required.

You had a healthy dog put down (how did the vet agree to this, btw?) because you couldn't be arsed to put up a proper fence.

no i had a healthy dog put down because i had been told she had been seen attacking a sheep by the owners, and yes i do think if a farmer is going to accuse a dog of attacking their sheep, and tell the owner he will kill the dog when he sees it again he should make sure he has the right dog, i would not have put down my dog if the farmer had sid he wasnt sure but he thought it was mine, he told me he was 100% sure that it was indeed my dog that he saw hanging out of one of his sheep with his won eyes, excuse me for caring enough for my dog to have her put to sleep instead of having a farmer shoot her and maybe not kill her straight away and have her in pain. no way sorry. i am heart broken and will never trust a farmer to be able to tell the difference between 2 different breeds of dogs again unless i see it with my own eyes that it is my dog.

as far as my vet was concerned he agreed with me,

peasant

AngelicRaindrop wrote: »

no i had a healthy dog put down because i had been told she had been seen attacking a sheep by the owners, and yes i do think if a farmer is going to accuse a dog of attacking their sheep, and tell the owner he will kill the dog when he sees it again he should make sure he has the right dog, i would not have put down my dog if the farmer had sid he wasnt sure but he thought it was mine, he told me he was 100% sure that it was indeed my dog that he saw hanging out of one of his sheep with his won eyes, excuse me for caring enough for my dog to have her put to sleep instead of having a farmer shoot her and maybe not kill her straight away and have her in pain. no way sorry. i am heart broken and will never trust a farmer to be able to tell the difference between 2 different breeds of dogs again unless i see it with my own eyes that it is my dog.

as far as my vet was concerned he agreed with me,

You're still missing the point completely.

It is the law (whether you agree with it or not) that your dog can be shot when it is found straying and worrying livestock.

So it is your goddamn duty (to your farming neighbours but most of all to your dog(s)) to prevent your dog from wandering off.

Not to put it down.

Build a fence, put it in at night. What is so difficult to comprehend about that?

Stop blaming the farmer and take a good look at yourself and your own (in)actions instead.

chickenhawk

AngelicRaindrop wrote: »

am heart broken and will never trust a farmer to be able to tell the difference between 2 different breeds of dogs again unless i see it with my own eyes that it is my dog.

Well in fairness to the farmer. He was probably just mad that he seen a dog do that to his sheep. Also it is dangerous to go near a dog that is attacking animals so he probably only seen the dog from a distance. He knew you had a dog that looked like that and told you what would happen. He thought he was doing the right thing by giving you a warning and time to tie up the dog etc. So no it was not the farmers fault he confused the type of dog it was.

mikemac

Yep, a dog can be shot once it goes onto the land and near the livestock. It doesn't even have to touch them as all it has to do is "worry" them.

If sheep have been killed in the past then the farmer will have to get the vet out to certify this. And if it's found your dog is at fault then it'll be destroyed and you better have public liability insurance to pay costs. A date in court is guranteed if you refuse.

It's taken seriously OP. It's not unheard of to hear the priest remind of dog owners of this during the mass sermon during lambing season.

Kess73

chickenhawk wrote: »

You do. And the next time the farmer is spreading slurry he could misjudge the distance and spray all over you house, garden, washing line etc. I've seen it done (nothing to do with me or my family but a person who moved over from germany and told my neighbour that he was farming wrong) the stink in the house was amazing. The person called the council and they said "you choose to live in the countryside, you put up with the country smells".

I'm sorry but that is rubbish. If a farmer were do to that and claim it was a mistake, he would still be liable for any damage or costs to the house he sprayed.


It would be a very stupid or arrogant farmer that would try something like that, and expect to get away scott free with it. The simple fact would be he did damage or caused damage to someone else's property, and would be treated as such under Irish law.


And I fail to believe that if Gardai were called and the person whose house was sprayed wanted to press charges that it would not be taken further.


Also nobody from the council would go on offical record with a statement like that one.

Kess73

To the OP.


The farmer is within his rights to shoot dogs on his property that he thinks are worrying livestock, and he did cover himself by telling you in advance.


The only way he can have broken a law in this is if he did not go and report that he did the shooting to the local Gardai within two days of doing so. If he has not reported that he killed the dogs and the reason why he did so within that timeframe, then he has broken the law by not reporting a shooting, and can be charged and fined for it.

Not that it would bring your dogs back or give you any consolation on the matter though.


It is an incident that although the farmer did something that was within his rights to do, will still sting and cause you to feel loss.


Personally I would be gutted if it were my dogs that were shot, and I don't know if I would be able to see it as clearly as the farmer simply protecting his stock and source of income which is his right under law, or if I would from that moment onwards watch and report anything that could be illegal done by the farmer.

Sigma Force

Very sad situation for the dogs.

Perhaps at least some people that don't have their dogs fenced in and secure will now keep their dogs under control at all times.

lightening

AngelicRaindrop wrote: »

excuse me for caring enough for my dog to have her put to sleep instead of having a farmer shoot her

I can't believe you did this instead of forking out on some fencing. Cruel stuff, I'm surprised the vet went along with your cheap and nasty "get out" of responsible dog ownership.

chickenhawk

Kess73 wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is rubbish. If a farmer were do to that and claim it was a mistake, he would still be liable for any damage or costs to the house he sprayed.

It would be a very stupid or arrogant farmer that would try something like that, and expect to get away scott free with it. The simple fact would be he did damage or caused damage to someone else's property, and would be treated as such under Irish law.

And I fail to believe that if Gardai were called and the person whose house was sprayed wanted to press charges that it would not be taken further.

Also nobody from the council would go on offical record with a statement like that one.

I didn't say the guards were called because they weren't.

If the farmer did that just because he was pissed that the person was telling him how to farm (the issue was the use of plastic troughs on the farm) imagine what he would have done if she had taken it further. All the locals were just laughing at her and people were sick of people from the city's moving out and complaining about stuff that has gone on for years.

You can fail to believe whatever you like but the person from the council did not make an official statement it was more of a friendly word with the person concerned.

You can believe in the law all you like but all the farmer had to do was say he lost focus on what he was doing or that he didn't realise he was so close to the fence etc. Can't prove otherwise.

Dilly

Whatever about the legalities and the right/wrong of it all, I'm sorry that you lost your dogs...

chickenhawk

Kess73 wrote: »

Personally I would be gutted if it were my dogs that were shot, and I don't know if I would be able to see it as clearly as the farmer simply protecting his stock and source of income which is his right under law, or if I would from that moment onwards watch and report anything that could be illegal done by the farmer.

Why would you report the farmer? Could you not just be responsible for your dog and keep it within the confines of your own land. And if you do not have enough space to keep it out of harms way don't buy a dog then.

Tar.Aldarion

I don't know how this law could be improved but it should be. We had a dog smaller than a cat that went into the nighbours field for the first time in ten years of living next door. It just stood there and looked at the sheep and they just continued doing nothing, he got shot. That's bollocks imo. Neighbours moved away over it.

chickenhawk

Tara Le d'Arion wrote: »

I don't know how this law could be improved but it should be. We had a dog smaller than a cat that went into the nighbours field for the first time in ten years of living next door. It just stood there and looked at the sheep and they just continued doing nothing, he got shot. That's bollocks imo. Neighbours moved away over it.

That is crazy.

But I don't think the law should be changed.

peasant

If that draconian law is not incentive enough for dog owners to keep their dogs from wandering off ...what else would work?

kerrysgold

AngelicRaindrop wrote: »

no i had a healthy dog put down because i had been told she had been seen attacking a sheep by the owners, and yes i do think if a farmer is going to accuse a dog of attacking their sheep, and tell the owner he will kill the dog when he sees it again he should make sure he has the right dog, i would not have put down my dog if the farmer had sid he wasnt sure but he thought it was mine, he told me he was 100% sure that it was indeed my dog that he saw hanging out of one of his sheep with his won eyes, excuse me for caring enough for my dog to have her put to sleep instead of having a farmer shoot her and maybe not kill her straight away and have her in pain. no way sorry. i am heart broken and will never trust a farmer to be able to tell the difference between 2 different breeds of dogs again unless i see it with my own eyes that it is my dog.

as far as my vet was concerned he agreed with me,

unbelievable :eek:
didn't you ever hear of the saying innocent until proven guilty?! Some farmer's word definitely doesn't count as "evidence" that the dog was a killer. I can't believe you killed a healthy and innocent dog rather than bother to keep her fenced in properly.

AngelicRaindrop

lightening wrote: »

I can't believe you did this instead of forking out on some fencing. Cruel stuff, I'm surprised the vet went along with your cheap and nasty "get out" of responsible dog ownership.

thats your opinion, at the time i do think i did the right thing, as did my vet, its been 15 years since and if the same situation arose id do it again, no dog should attack and kill sheep. having lived on a farm i do agree with that, what i am saying is farmers should not go out and shoot without it being a completely last resort.

peasant

AngelicRaindrop wrote: »

if the same situation arose id do it again

Only because I'm a moderator on this site (not this forum) and supposed to lead by example am I not going to tell you in plain English what I think of your attitude.

It's because of people like you (and the OP) that this law has to exist in the first place.

Keep your dogs secure !

marlin vs

It's the dog owner's responsibility to know where his or her dog is at ALL times and to be under their control. I came on two sheepdogs harassing about twelve cattle onetime and went to the farmer and told him. I offered to shoot them if I saw them doing it again he thanked me but told me not to as they were owned by his neighbour and had seen the dog's at it before, I know if they were my cattle I wouldn't hessitate to shoot them,it's always the case, my dog wouldn't do that.

brianthebard

marlin vs wrote: »

It's the dog owner's responsibility to know where his or her dog is at ALL times and to be under their control. I came on two sheepdogs harassing about twelve cattle onetime and went to the farmer and told him. I offered to shoot them if I saw them doing it again he thanked me but told me not to as they were owned by his neighbour and had seen the dog's at it before, I know if they were my cattle I wouldn't hessitate to shoot them,it's always the case, my dog wouldn't do that.

yea our neighbours dog often chases or harasses our cattle.We don't own a gun though.Your example shows that there are plenty of farmers who won't shoot dogs even when perhaps they should,i hope that will show some people that farmers are not uncaring moneygrabbers.

pirelli

AngelicRaindrop wrote: »

no i had a healthy dog put down because i had been told she had been seen attacking a sheep by the owners, and yes i do think if a farmer is going to accuse a dog of attacking their sheep, and tell the owner he will kill the dog when he sees it again he should make sure he has the right dog, i would not have put down my dog if the farmer had sid he wasnt sure but he thought it was mine, he told me he was 100% sure that it was indeed my dog that he saw hanging out of one of his sheep with his won eyes, excuse me for caring enough for my dog to have her put to sleep instead of having a farmer shoot her and maybe not kill her straight away and have her in pain. no way sorry. i am heart broken and will never trust a farmer to be able to tell the difference between 2 different breeds of dogs again unless i see it with my own eyes that it is my dog.

as far as my vet was concerned he agreed with me,

You sound like my parents.


OP:
I am sorry to hear about your dogs. Farmer's; despite them being really sound and having a good friendship with you, think nothing of shooting your dog. It happen's everywhere. Perhaps you could find out from people that live near the area they were shot, if they heard gunshots and when.

whitser

yes he's very much entilted to do it, and he's aslo entilted to get compensated for any damage your dogs did.

Sam Kade

AngelicRaindrop wrote: »

i have to say although the farmer gave warning before shooting them I do think he may have been a bit quick about doing it.

So the farmer sees a dog atacking his sheep a few sheep dead and he say's to himself I better run to the owner of the dog warn him that I will shoot his dog, then I must run back to the farm get the gun and shoot the dog. Most of the time the farmer doesn't know who owns the dog. You shoot the dog when he is atacking your sheep.

kerrysgold

AngelicRaindrop wrote: »

thats your opinion, at the time i do think i did the right thing, as did my vet, its been 15 years since and if the same situation arose id do it again, no dog should attack and kill sheep. having lived on a farm i do agree with that, what i am saying is farmers should not go out and shoot without it being a completely last resort.

I think you're missing the point entirely.

Why didn't you fence you're dog in? If she couldn't get loose, she wouldn't attack the sheep, simple! No need to kill the poor thing. (Although according to you it was a acase of mistaken identity and it wasn't even her that was attacking the sheep so she was killed for absolutly no reason whatsoever!)

doctor evil

In fairness to AngelicRaindrop a misplaced bullet/one gone off course would hurt a lot more than being over dosed with anastethic.

kerrysgold

again, missing the point which is PUT UP A FENCE.

lightening

AngelicRaindrop wrote: »

its been 15 years since and if the same situation arose id do it again

I don't think your suited to dog ownership, your are cruel and irresponsible. You choose to kill a dog instead of keeping it fenced in properly.

AngelicRaindrop wrote: »

no dog should attack and kill sheep. having lived on a farm i do agree with that, what i am saying is farmers should not go out and shoot without it being a completely last resort.

Again, killing your dog instead of spending a few bob on fencing is a cheap, nasty way out.

whitser

in fairness to angelic she was living in the countryside with a dog she believed was attacking stock. building a fence is no garauntee the dog wont get out and do it again. i dont think its cruel to have a dog put down humanely. if a farmer shoots and kills the dog it might not die instantly and she could also have found herself in court to pay damages. a dog that cant be trusted around stock is a disaster waiting to happen

peasant

whitser wrote: »

building a fence is no garauntee the dog wont get out and do it again.

So you'd rather save the money and effort on the fence and get one dog after the other on a "trial run" to either stay on your property or get put down ...or what?

Of course a fence keeps dogs in ...if it's built properly.

But that takes considerably more expense and effort than just putting down perfectly healthy and normal dogs.