Reloading??? Has this issue just slipped off the agenda?

ivanthehunter

Are we taking a back seat here lads while the Government thinks all is well!

Now is the time to apply the pressure though one form or another whether that be a letter or a demonstration...

Do our leaders realise our plight or are they only concerned with handgun control?
Is the press hungry for information on this new subject of public concern?

With so many articles having been wrote recently in local and national papers, are we not mad to take advantage of this by contacting some these journalists and having them write a piece to show how backward Ireland really is in terms of reloading???

---

When will i see a letter in the times that explains plight of the "want to be" reloaders in this county.

What should a letter like this contain?
- Should it talk about the environmental concerns such as brass that is discarded and never reused and in some instances is simply discarded at the time and place of shooting.

- Should it contain POV's about the quality of factory ammunition verses the reloaded ammunition and how this has the potential to mean the difference between winning and losing an Olympic gold medal

- Can we also include points that demonstrate how the normal target shooter might experiments with different ammunition of differing weights and powder types and then possibly make a comparison to Irish shooter who can only shoot shop bought (factory made) ammunition which is at the best of times is very limited in terms of the type of ammo for any given caliber. Also making note of how limited(boring) the sport is due to the restrictive supply of crap ammo.

- Might such a letter also contain information on wildcatting and how wildcatters are responsible for the coming of age of some of the best ammunition to date such as .17hmr .22-250 .220 swift and much much more.
Wildcatters are still busy conducting experiments to obtain quieter ammunition with better trajectories while the big factories only produce the top selling ammunitions. What has wildcatting got to do with reloading? Well how can you order custom made ammo and from who? What about the price of such ammo?
The only economical solution is to allow wildcatters to load their own.
Don't forget that wildcatting is a kin to gun-smithing which has the potential to form a whole new industry in Ireland albeit that it might be small but it shall be specialized and unique.

Don't forget the frustration that the shooting community are going through when they jealously watch or read about other countries who reload.

Can we make reference to th UK and how such activities are common practice in mainland UK and even in the north (where all the troubles existed) of Ireland they are allowed to reload.

- Should history be brought to bear on this issue? Yes I LOUDLY say Yes.
It was in the interest of the UK to keep Ireland disarmed and this has had a bearing on us because of one simple fact, old laws which are out dated and stink of control of a nation..

---

A clear separation between legal shooters and criminals with guns should be demanded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The target shooters sport in this country is bastardized because of the refusals to issue licences to obtain powder and primers. I personally would not be interested in target shooting when such draconian measures exist..

A laughable issue!
Thugs are currently using pipe bombs in drug turf wars and there are no primers or powder allowed in the country so what are they using? There are hundreds of militant web site that give guidance on how to make bombs and where to secure detonators. So why punish legal shooters?

Some might say that it is the ease by which such powder and primers are procured by such undesirables that is the real concern. Well they don't have licences so they'll have to steel it so currently they only have to drive over the border and steel it which is only 1.5 hours from my house with no check point Charlie's on route.

Has anybody ever cut open a shot gun cartridge? Well how easy was it? and there is any amount of these lying in farmers drawers and in other easy to reach places.. in reality thats all the powder and primers that you could ever want if you were in to such illegal activity.

---

Now, who here will write such a letter, who has access to the power corridors of the media and the Dail. Who has the gift of the gab when it comes to writing letters who's the best?

PS I don't want to hear any criticisms of my idea, i only want to hear positive feed backs and good vibes. I will accept redirect but not as a form of distraction from the main points... You know who you are

thehair

well said ivan i agree 100%steve:D

rrpc

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Are we taking a back seat here lads while the Government thinks all is well!

Now is the time to apply the pressure though one form or another whether that be a letter or a demonstration...

Reloading along with many other things is being dealt with through the FCP.

- Should it contain POV's about the quality of factory ammunition verses the reloaded ammunition and how this has the potential to mean the difference between winning and losing an Olympic gold medal

Since the only cartridges used in the Olympics are either .22 or shotgun, the issue of reloading doesn't arise in that respect. I know you can reload shotgun cartridges, but the athletes who take part in the Olympics use factory.

All of the rest has been discussed ad nauseum and is well documented. A lot more information than you mention has been researched and brought up at FCP level.

The DoJ have to tidy up the firearms acts with regard to the uncommenced parts of the 2006 act before reloading can be dealt with.

thehair

hello rrpc do you think that people who want to reload are a bit tired
off waiting i only have a .22 rinfire but when the time comes to have
a centrefire i would like to be able to reload and the way think move
in law in ireland who know when steve

It wasn't me!

To be honest, this isn't about pandering to those who want to reload, so people being tired of waiting for something there's no guarantee of is a bit irrelevant to the debate.

rrpc

thehair wrote: »

hello rrpc do you think that people who want to reload are a bit tired
off waiting i only have a .22 rinfire but when the time comes to have
a centrefire i would like to be able to reload and the way think move
in law in ireland who know when steve

Try waiting for 30 years to get your pistols back before you start getting impatient.

thehair

It wasn't me! wrote: »

To be honest, this isn't about pandering to those who want to reload, so people being tired of waiting for something there's no guarantee of is a bit irrelevant to the debate.

ok fair point:cool: but the F-C-P board is looking at and discussed
one would hope also their is no info from the F-C-P board about this issue
steve

thehair

rrpc wrote: »

Try waiting for 30 years to get your pistols back before you start getting impatient.

i am not getting impatient rrpc and i do not have a pistols but i can see your
point steve

IRLConor

thehair wrote: »

ok fair point:cool: but the F-C-P board is looking at and discussed
one would hope also their is no info from the F-C-P board about this issue
steve

I'd certainly like to see more info like the document they published in March. At the end of the day they have day jobs so some amount of delay is reasonable I suppose.

rrpc

thehair wrote: »

ok fair point:cool: but the F-C-P board is looking at and discussed
one would hope also their is no info from the F-C-P board about this issue
steve

The FCP can only advise. They don't write the law and they don't make the decisions. It took two years for the CJA 2006 to become law and two years later it's still not all implemented, so you can take it that this is going to take time.

rrpc

IRLConor wrote: »

I'd certainly like to see more info like the document they published in March. At the end of the day they have day jobs so some amount of delay is reasonable I suppose.

It's holiday time Conor, so I don't think there'll be anything until everyone can be back around the table again.

Rovi

The last I heard (and this was a couple of months ago), is that the DOJ intend covering reloading as part of the complete overhaul of the explosives legislation.
I gather (and this is heresay), that the 'shooting' members of the FCP who have an interest in reloading have argued the sense of lumping the practice in with legislation governing blasting and demolitions, but at the end of the day, the DOJ have the final say and call all the shots.
Very detailed and well argued submissions on the subject have certainly been presented to the DOJ.

ivanthehunter

OK fair point about the Olympic issue of .22rims only!
There are other events world wide where rims aren't used!
But what about the simple fact that target shooting is a farce in this country because of the denial of a simple thing such as reloading! Surely permits could be allowed to sub in powder and primers to the equivalent ammunition numbers on the licence or possible the European Firearms Pass could offer a back door to the red tape junkies and it would allow them to save face

How about turning the tide of public opinion into a positive rather than the bad image that boom boom stick men have now.

Where do i find out about the FCP and their effort to have things changed.

And by the by, the days of waiting for thirty odd years to have things sorted out are well and truly over and done with.. 30 odd months maybe but I'd draw a line in the sand at that point. And yes that fighting talk!!!!!!!

thehair

rrpc wrote: »

The FCP can only advise. They don't write the law and they don't make the decisions. It took two years for the CJA 2006 to become law and two years later it's still not all implemented, so you can take it that this is going to take time.

yes you are right everthink in time would you like to have a guess on how long
it will take to happen steve:eek:

IRLConor

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Where do i find out about the FCP and their effort to have things changed.

Talk to your NGB, they probably have a rep on the FCP and I'm sure they'd hear your concerns and take them into account when at the FCP meetings. They may be able to tell you more about what has already been said about reloading too.

ivanthehunter

rrpc wrote: »

The FCP can only advise. They don't write the law and they don't make the decisions. It took two years for the CJA 2006 to become law and two years later it's still not all implemented, so you can take it that this is going to take time.

Well will my eye sight still be with me then?
The day of the nice approach is over!! Its time for some action!! While the FCP are busy attacking it is possible for others to open up a new front!

It wasn't me!

You can't bully the legislature. This talk of attacking and fighting talk is just silly blustering, and worse than ineffective.

thehair

well ivan you have heard the one about p-i-s ing against the wind:eek:

thehair

It wasn't me! wrote: »

You can't bully the legislature. This talk of attacking and fighting talk is just silly blustering, and worse than ineffective.

i agree with you steve:cool:

ivanthehunter

What do you think i am going to do? Pull out a box of hornandy ammo a go running with a pipe bomb strapped to my chest!:D

ITs HARD TALK! by action i mean protest! Hard protest in the form of letters, TV shows, Radio talk shows and demonstrations if required.
I have spent too much time saying yes sir no sir that time is over.
I do not intend to do anything illegal, i only intent to act with in the democratic system that in place...

thehair

ivanthehunter wrote: »

What do you think i am going to do? Pull out a box of hornandy ammo a go running with a pipe bomb strapped to my chest!:D are you:eek:

ITs HARD TALK! by action i mean protest! Hard protest in the form of letters, TV shows, Radio talk shows and demonstrations if required.
I have spent too much time saying yes sir no sir that time is over.
I do not intend to do anything illegal, i only intent to act with in the democratic system that in place...

f-ck me go for it so:eek:

rrpc

ivanthehunter wrote: »

What do you think i am going to do? Pull out a box of hornandy ammo a go running with a pipe bomb strapped to my chest!:D

ITs HARD TALK! by action i mean protest! Hard protest in the form of letters, TV shows, Radio talk shows and demonstrations if required.
I have spent too much time saying yes sir no sir that time is over.
I do not intend to do anything illegal, i only intent to act with in the democratic system that in place...

Who pis*ed on your strawberries this morning Ivan?

Sparks

ivanthehunter wrote: »

But what about the simple fact that target shooting is a farce in this country because of the denial of a simple thing such as reloading!

Really? Last I checked, we had sent several people to the Olympics, won individual and team medals in ISSF world cups and ISSF world championships, won medals in silhouette, in IPSC, in F-class, in fact, in just about everything going. I'd be the last to say we had laurels to sit on, but the lack of reloading isn't target shooting's biggest problem in this country. It barely makes the list in fact. The biggest problems target shooting has are that, amongst other things,

• we don't have highly efficient NGBs
• we don't have a culture of everyone putting their shoulder to the wheel to help run matches (instead 2% of the people do 98% of the work)
• we don't have formalised pathways in the sports
• we don't capitalise on the junior programs we have or on the output of the pony club and college clubs
• we don't have decent funding
• we don't have sponsorship outside of a few isolated cases
• we don't have enough ranges
• we don't have enough competitions
• and we don't have enough shooters.

To be honest, if throwing away reloading was to fix any of those problems, I'd be first in the queue to argue for it to be thrown away because those problems are far more serious. (Sadly, it will be far easier to introduce reloading than it will be to solve any of the above )

ivanthehunter wrote: »

ITs HARD TALK! by action i mean protest! Hard protest in the form of letters, TV shows, Radio talk shows and demonstrations if required.
I have spent too much time saying yes sir no sir that time is over.
I do not intend to do anything illegal, i only intent to act with in the democratic system that in place...

Oh ffs. That's it, enough already.
Ivan, what do you think the FCP is, but acting within the democratic system that is in place?
All this "tough guy" talk is stupidity incarnate. The reality of the situation is so radically different to what this "tough guy" talk says it is, that it's not even funny anymore. The people who've pushed this "tough guy" approach have in general (and the exceptions are very few and far between), caused us more harm than good and they have brought down highly draconian legislation on us as a result and they have in general done more to benefit themselves than others. Anyone who's ever looked at that side of our sport in detail has lost all patience for folks who take that approach because of long experience of what happens when you try it. In fact, most who see the admin side of our sport and come into contact with these folks, have quit the admin side rather than deal with them.

The "tough guy" approach might seem highly attractive, but it's all posturing and bravado. It might sound like you're doing something, but the people who've ever done any good for our sport have usually done it quietly and consistently and nine times out of ten without anyone else noticing. They just got on with it. I could list a few names off and you might not recognise them, but anyone who's ever seriously tried to shoot to compete or even just to learn to shoot better, could tell you that they're the heart and soul of shooting. And none of them would be the ones standing up calling for all this pushing and shoving and fighting "de man". :mad:

ballistic

well said Ivanthehunter! dont forget the hunter though

ivanthehunter

Sparks wrote: »

Really? Last I checked, we had sent several people to the Olympics, won individual and team medals in ISSF world cups and ISSF world championships, won medals in silhouette, in IPSC, in F-class, in fact, in just about everything going. I'd be the last to say we had laurels to sit on, but the lack of reloading isn't target shooting's biggest problem in this country. It barely makes the list in fact. The biggest problems target shooting has are that, amongst other things,

• we don't have highly efficient NGBs
• we don't have a culture of everyone putting their shoulder to the wheel to help run matches (instead 2% of the people do 98% of the work)
• we don't have formalised pathways in the sports
• we don't capitalise on the junior programs we have or on the output of the pony club and college clubs
• we don't have decent funding
• we don't have sponsorship outside of a few isolated cases
• we don't have enough ranges
• we don't have enough competitions
• and we don't have enough shooters.

To be honest, if throwing away reloading was to fix any of those problems, I'd be first in the queue to argue for it to be thrown away because those problems are far more serious. (Sadly, it will be far easier to introduce reloading than it will be to solve any of the above )


Oh ffs. That's it, enough already.
Ivan, what do you think the FCP is, but acting within the democratic system that is in place?
All this "tough guy" talk is stupidity incarnate. The reality of the situation is so radically different to what this "tough guy" talk says it is, that it's not even funny anymore. The people who've pushed this "tough guy" approach have in general (and the exceptions are very few and far between), caused us more harm than good and they have brought down highly draconian legislation on us as a result and they have in general done more to benefit themselves than others. Anyone who's ever looked at that side of our sport in detail has lost all patience for folks who take that approach because of long experience of what happens when you try it. In fact, most who see the admin side of our sport and come into contact with these folks, have quit the admin side rather than deal with them.

The "tough guy" approach might seem highly attractive, but it's all posturing and bravado. It might sound like you're doing something, but the people who've ever done any good for our sport have usually done it quietly and consistently and nine times out of ten without anyone else noticing. They just got on with it. I could list a few names off and you might not recognise them, but anyone who's ever seriously tried to shoot to compete or even just to learn to shoot better, could tell you that they're the heart and soul of shooting. And none of them would be the ones standing up calling for all this pushing and shoving and fighting "de man". :mad:

WTF did i tell you about this negative sh1t. ffs give it a rest, you'd never inspire anybody to succeed with you suicidal crap talk about shoulders to the wheel.. you have just wasted you limited energy for today with that -ive crap.
Yes some target shooters have other things that might stand higher on the wish list but we here on the boards are united in the fact that we want reloading and we're going get it...... in the end.. Any other out come is not acceptable.. end of dicussion................................................


Every body wants it so why come out with stupid statements were you claim that you'd forgo reloading if you were given the things on your wish list which BTW contains things which are all legal and have no bearing on this subject.

You have had the right to pursue these ideas for years and it is not comparable to reloading.

I believe that i speak for re loaders only and if you don't want it then don't antagonize me with you PC satire.

BTW in relation to target shooting being a farce: i would have no interest in a sport (BTW participation is everything, winning is only a bonus and only happens if you decide to compete) that is seriously curtailed by current legislation. The only reason that I'd want to shoot at paper targets would be to test my loading and ammunition config,s

Some time you comments are well placed but not always!!!!!!!

thehair

To be honest, if throwing away reloading was to fix any of those problems, I'd be first in the queue to argue for it to be thrown away because those problems are far more serious. (Sadly, it will be far easier to introduce reloading than it will be to solve any of the above )

that is great news for all that might want to reload so the ans is
YES and NO

Sparks

ivanthehunter wrote: »

WTF did i tell you about this negative sh1t

Ah, the second phase of the "tough guy" approach - accept absolutely no contrasting or differing opinion or dissent. No-one else, no matter how long they've been working at it or how much they know about it, can possibly be worth listening to.
Yeah, I've heard that before. Usually just before someone went into the wall at high speed, and usually taking a few poor sods with them too.

Yes some target shooters have other things that might stand higher on the wish list but we here on the boards are united in the fact that we want reloading and we're going get it.

Really? I'm on boards and I'm not united with you. And I know from what I know of most other folks in here that there's no great united front here. We would all like to see it come in, but united in some stupid "We're going to pound on the table until the DoJ give us what we're demanding this week" approach? Yeah, right :rolleyes:

Every body wants it so why come out with stupid statements were you claim that you'd forgo reloading if you were given the things on your wish list which BTW contains things which are all legal and have no bearing on this subject.

That's rather the point though, isn't it? All these tough guys with their fight against the man. And yet Bunny Shooter couldn't get five guys together for a team for the NARGC championships. Seems to me that all these tough guys are grand if you want to pick a fight but useless if you want to actually have a sport.

i would have no interest in a sport

There you go. That just about says it all really. Tough guys. The ultimate in "I'm alright Jack".

ivanthehunter

Its about being positive sparks, having a positive mental outlook! and if you intend to succeed at something you have to have some belief in the outcome.

Irish people will be reloading some day and thats a fact!!!!!

Now thats my mentality!!!! If I was going to play the tough guy i bash some one up or threaten their family with a gruesome death or both, i don't think that banging my fists on the table will do anything.. ffs the whole tough man thing is sad sparks. I never claimed to be a tough man nor did i state that I'd use bully boy tactic with the doj or any other organization.

I simply stated that shooters should all possible avenues to pursue the cause.

Sparks

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Its about being positive sparks, having a positive mental outlook!

I have a positive mental outlook - it says "screw fighting the man, let's run matches and actually do something".

Irish people will be reloading some day and thats a fact!!!!!

No, it would just be helpful. It's not an absolute necessity. We've won lots of medals without it. It would certainly be a good thing, and there's no real argument against it that makes sense, but it is not the worst problem the sport faces and frankly, if we invested in the sport half of what we do into legal fights, we'd all be better off.

I simply stated that shooters should all possible avenues to pursue the cause.

I don't have a cause.
I have a sport.

chem

My 2 cents.

Folks I`ve delt with alot of joe public over the years. Most OK and then you get the 1% of the population that are just ar$e holes. These people can not be delt with by reason or logic. If you lose the cool you have already lost the battle with them, because this is where they are trying to take you to in the first place. Mindless shouting is there battleground and you will lose.

I have found alot of these peopletend to have a strip or two and work in middle management, and feel the need to prove there worth by showing you who is boss in this department etc.

Most I find have little intellect and are jobs worths (cant do that. Thats more then my jobs worth). Most got there not by hard work or graft. But by licking cert body parts of the higher ranks and taking credit for other peoples work.

I find the best way to deal with these people is not to demand, but to message there egos abit and be firm and to use abit of there own bull$hit against them.

Its not nice to do and I feel dirty after it, but it always gets a result and in the end thats all that counts.;)

IRLConor

Personally, if I were you I would hold off on any extra pushing for reloading (outside of the FCP) until we see the publication of the bill for the new Explosives Act. It's due later this year and will probably set the basis for any possible future reloading. I doubt there'll be any movement on reloading before that gets enacted. When the initial bill comes out, then that'll be the time to go campaigning to your NGB and local TDs to press for amendments to it to be more reloading friendly. Keep an eye out here for that and other upcoming legislation.

I wouldn't bother going to the media about it, it's not a topic that would be likely to sell newspapers. It's a minority issue of a minority sport as far as they're concerned. Ultimately the media doesn't get laws made unless it's a "public outrage" kind of situation and if there was one of those involving reloading I doubt it would be likely to turn out well.

So, in summary, if I were you I'd do the following:

• Contact your NGB and ask them what they're doing about reloading on the FCP and if there's anything you can do to help move it on. Even if they don't need your help for the FCP, knowing that you're out there and you care about the issue is helpful and they can always come back to you later for help. Get your money's worth from your NGB!
• Keep an eye out for the Explosives Bill and lobby your local TDs for amendments to get what you want. If you're looking for something to do in advance of this, make up a short document on reloading. Keep it very short and very simple. That way when the TD says "what the hell is reloading" you'll have a canned answer for them. Include answers for common concerns like the safety and security issues so that they don't get caught out in the Dáil. Practice an "elevator pitch" if you're going to meet them in person.
• When the bill hits the committee stage, make sure you've contacted the TDs and Senators on that committee beforehand to explain your position. I suspect it'll be the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. Keep an eye on what they all say on the matter in the committee debates and be sure to praise the ones that raise your issues.
• Make sure you cooperate with your NGB through this process, they may have extra material for you that they've used before and they may be able to offer advice on dealing with particular politicians if they've dealt with them before. Advice like "don't go to Tony Gregory on hunting issues" could turn out to be very valuable. It also prevents duplication of effort.

ivanthehunter

Thats right sparks, how could i be so stupid to think that target shooting could really benefit from reloading, never mind all the other shooters who are in it for the fun. Once again sparks you are oh so right,



How'd i do there Chem:D

ivanthehunter

IRLConor wrote: »

Personally, if I were you I would hold off on any extra pushing for reloading (outside of the FCP) until we see the publication of the bill for the new Explosives Act. It's due later this year and will probably set the basis for any possible future reloading. I doubt there'll be any movement on reloading before that gets enacted. When the initial bill comes out, then that'll be the time to go campaigning to your NGB and local TDs to press for amendments to it to be more reloading friendly. Keep an eye out here for that and other upcoming legislation.

I wouldn't bother going to the media about it, it's not a topic that would be likely to sell newspapers. It's a minority issue of a minority sport as far as they're concerned. Ultimately the media doesn't get laws made unless it's a "public outrage" kind of situation and if there was one of those involving reloading I doubt it would be likely to turn out well.

So, in summary, if I were you I'd do the following:

• Contact your NGB and ask them what they're doing about reloading on the FCP and if there's anything you can do to help move it on. Even if they don't need your help for the FCP, knowing that you're out there and you care about the issue is helpful and they can always come back to you later for help. Get your money's worth from your NGB!
• Keep an eye out for the Explosives Bill and lobby your local TDs for amendments to get what you want. If you're looking for something to do in advance of this, make up a short document on reloading. Keep it very short and very simple. That way when the TD says "what the hell is reloading" you'll have a canned answer for them. Include answers for common concerns like the safety and security issues so that they don't get caught out in the Dáil. Practice an "elevator pitch" if you're going to meet them in person.
• When the bill hits the committee stage, make sure you've contacted the TDs and Senators on that committee beforehand to explain your position. I suspect it'll be the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. Keep an eye on what they all say on the matter in the committee debates and be sure to praise the ones that raise your issues.
• Make sure you cooperate with your NGB through this process, they may have extra material for you that they've used before and they may be able to offer advice on dealing with particular politicians if they've dealt with them before. Advice like "don't go to Tony Gregory on hunting issues" could turn out to be very valuable. It also prevents duplication of effort.

Thanks for the positive advice i'll try and take it on board.

thehair

IRLConor wrote: »

Personally, if I were you I would hold off on any extra pushing for reloading (outside of the FCP) until we see the publication of the bill for the new Explosives Act. It's due later this year and will probably set the basis for any possible future reloading. I doubt there'll be any movement on reloading before that gets enacted. When the initial bill comes out, then that'll be the time to go campaigning to your NGB and local TDs to press for amendments to it to be more reloading friendly. Keep an eye out here for that and other upcoming legislation.

I wouldn't bother going to the media about it, it's not a topic that would be likely to sell newspapers. It's a minority issue of a minority sport as far as they're concerned. Ultimately the media doesn't get laws made unless it's a "public outrage" kind of situation and if there was one of those involving reloading I doubt it would be likely to turn out well.

So, in summary, if I were you I'd do the following:

• Contact your NGB and ask them what they're doing about reloading on the FCP and if there's anything you can do to help move it on. Even if they don't need your help for the FCP, knowing that you're out there and you care about the issue is helpful and they can always come back to you later for help. Get your money's worth from your NGB!
• Keep an eye out for the Explosives Bill and lobby your local TDs for amendments to get what you want. If you're looking for something to do in advance of this, make up a short document on reloading. Keep it very short and very simple. That way when the TD says "what the hell is reloading" you'll have a canned answer for them. Include answers for common concerns like the safety and security issues so that they don't get caught out in the Dáil. Practice an "elevator pitch" if you're going to meet them in person.
• When the bill hits the committee stage, make sure you've contacted the TDs and Senators on that committee beforehand to explain your position. I suspect it'll be the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. Keep an eye on what they all say on the matter in the committee debates and be sure to praise the ones that raise your issues.
• Make sure you cooperate with your NGB through this process, they may have extra material for you that they've used before and they may be able to offer advice on dealing with particular politicians if they've dealt with them before. Advice like "don't go to Tony Gregory on hunting issues" could turn out to be very valuable. It also prevents duplication of effort.

very well said IRL connor now that makes a lot of sense :Dsteve

Rovi

Emotions are starting to run high now, so it's probably best to throw the towels over the taps right here.

Low level Charter breaches have been thrown from a fair few directions, so I'm not even going to attempt to try to sort through them to decide if infractions are warranted or not; therefore, no infractions for anyone.
For the moment. Attempts to continue the mud slinging will result in stronger measures.

Spirited debate is welcomed and encouraged, name calling and similar childishness is not.

Thread closed on a positive note, a few posts at the end deleted.


Rovi.