Passport check coming between GB & ROI?

stuartfanning

Most Continental EU countries have done away with border checks with most other EU countries, the UK and Republic of Ireland being the main exceptions. Now it seems to be on the cards that there will be Passport checks between GB and ROI. Complicating things for and delaying travellers between the two countries who never had these restrictions before. Crazy I think.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20080724/tuk-governments-propose-border-checks-6323e80.html

ejmaztec

They like passports waved at them on the Czech-German, Czech-Austrian borders. Must be others in the EU, I would imagine.

stuartfanning

ejmaztec wrote: »

They like passports waved at them on the Czech-German, Czech-Austrian borders. Must be others in the EU, I would imagine.

Now now as the Czech Republic is now part of Schengen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

ejmaztec

stuartfanning wrote: »

Now now as the Czech Republic is now part of Schengen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement

Whoops, sorry.

OPENROAD

Technically we already have passport checks(well photo id) in Dublin arriving from London. Arrive at Heathrow absolutely no checks, come back to Dublin and it is a different story and sometimes it can take some time to get through.

LordSutch

Technically, the title of this thread should read "Passport check coming between UK & ROI" and not GB & ROI, but leaving that aside, I was listening to a discussion on the radio this am, & the general consensus seems to be that any Passport checks will be 'ad-hoc' usually aimed at people trying to gain illegal entry to the 'Common treavel Area' so people with UK or Irish passports will not deliberately be asked to prove ID owing to local sensitivities 'as the British Government representative put it'

I actually witnessed one of these Passport ID checks two or three years ago on the Train from Belfast to Dublin, Gardai boarded to train at Dundalk asking casually peoples nationality, ten mins later they left the train with an African sounding chap by the arm (illegal entry)? I dunno, but I always take my passport between the UK & ROI anyway whether travelling by boat, plane, or train (just in case).

Fratton Fred

I wonder if the recent drug seizure has anything to do with it. the UK government may see Ireland as an easy route in the UK which it wants to close.

sovtek

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I wonder if the recent drug seizure has anything to do with it. the UK government may see Ireland as an easy route in the UK which it wants to close.

Why? All the good drugs go to the UK and the continent.
This will mean more stories like the legal nigerians being held by Irish immigration in Belfast.

Fratton Fred

sovtek wrote: »

Why? All the good drugs go to the UK and the continent.
This will mean more stories like the legal nigerians being held by Irish immigration in Belfast.

but putting more border controls in place may reduce the amount that could come through Ireland.

Lets face it, there was a huge amount of luck involved in stopping that last lot, if they had managed to land it in Cork it would almost certainly have gone via holyhead into the UK (Which I believe is where it was headed) with ease.

Maybe it is a gentle push to the Irish government to increase their border security, if that is done the UK government may not worry too much about the irish border.

OPENROAD

ArthurF wrote: »

Technically, the title of this thread should read "Passport check coming between UK & ROI" and not GB & ROI, but leaving that aside, I was listening to a discussion on the radio this am, & the general consensus seems to be that any Passport checks will be 'ad-hoc' usually aimed at people trying to gain illegal entry to the 'Common treavel Area' so people with UK or Irish passports will not deliberately be asked to prove ID owing to local sensitivities 'as the British Government representative put it'

I actually witnessed one of these Passport ID checks two or three years ago on the Train from Belfast to Dublin, Gardai boarded to train at Dundalk asking casually peoples nationality, ten mins later they left the train with an African sounding chap by the arm (illegal entry)? I dunno, but I always take my passport between the UK & ROI anyway whether travelling by boat, plane, or train (just in case).

So am I right in thinking it will be random passport checks at airports if you don't look Irish/British

turgon

ArthurF wrote: »

asking casually peoples nationality

In fairness, any illegal immigrant worth his salt will be able to say "Irish" in a Dublin accent easily enough. Asking casually is a load of crap. Coming off the ferry in a car I was asked Nationality? The person next to me could have been an illegal Russian and nothing would be done about it.

Overheal

OPENROAD wrote: »

So am I right in thinking it will be random passport checks at airports if you don't look Irish/British

good luck with that

OPENROAD

ArthurF wrote: »

Technically, the title of this thread should read "Passport check coming between UK & ROI" and not GB & ROI, but leaving that aside, I was listening to a discussion on the radio this am, & the general consensus seems to be that any Passport checks will be 'ad-hoc' usually aimed at people trying to gain illegal entry to the 'Common treavel Area' so people with UK or Irish passports will not deliberately be asked to prove ID owing to local sensitivities 'as the British Government representative put it'

OK the aim is to stop illegal entry into CTA, but going forward we will still be asked to produce a passport travelling from ROI to GB.

oscarBravo

turgon wrote: »

In fairness, any illegal immigrant worth his salt will be able to say "Irish" in a Dublin accent easily enough. Asking casually is a load of crap. Coming off the ferry in a car I was asked Nationality? The person next to me could have been an illegal Russian and nothing would be done about it.

QFT. I drove off the ferry in my (Danish) girlfriend's (UK-registered) car (with her in the passenger seat), was asked "nationality", said "Irish", and was waved on. Granted, she's not illegal, but the point stands.

That said, I don't have an issue with it: I'd rather take the chance of an odd illegal getting off the boat than having to queue up for a full passport check.

Theres already an unavoidable new set of passport control booths at Dublin airport which is a sign of things to come-they were always there but now there are much more of them and they look like what you'd see in most other countries.
UK driving licences show citizenship afaik so they are not an ideal way to avoid immigration requirements if you are a non EU citizen that happens to have a UK driving licence.

Aurthur F is wrong regarding his comment on the thread title as land border passport controls on the southern side will never be introduced -Ergo this is a GB to Ireland and vice versa thing.
They may be though at NI ports and airports for checking of UK aswell as all other citizens traveling from GB though under current proposals-otherwise as the security measure that this is supposed to be,it would be pointless.

LordSutch

Deleted User wrote: »

Aurthur F is wrong regarding his comment on the thread title as land border passport controls on the southern side will never be introduced -Ergo this is a GB to Ireland and vice versa thing.
They may be though at NI ports and airports for checking of UK aswell as all other citizens traveling from GB though under current proposals-otherwise as the security measure that this is supposed to be,it would be pointless.

But I got the distinct impression that there will be spot checks between ROI & NI on the border, with the Garda & PSNI working closely together to stop 'illegals' traveling between UK & ROI ~ maybe I misunderstood?

I do appreciate that there will be further legislation regarding travel between NI & GB.

extragon

It's about the UK plan for an "electronic border" - basically for vote catching nationalistic reasons, though justified by the "war on terror." Ireland is a major hole in this arrangement, it being unlikely we'd introduce exit controls for the first time ever, feeding directly into the UK system, or automatically introduce all aspects of UK visa policy. This would have constitutional implications. ( Though we could probably join Schengen if the govt. wanted, having voted for the Amsterdam treaty. )
This will leave Ireland as one of the smallest areas in Europe surrounded by passport controls, in the same league as places like Albania. Evidently some form of immigration control will have to be introduced between NI and GB and it will be interesting to see how this plays out politically.

Fratton Fred

extragon wrote: »

It's about the UK plan for an "electronic border" - basically for vote catching nationalistic reasons, though justified by the "war on terror." Ireland is a major hole in this arrangement, it being unlikely we'd introduce exit controls for the first time ever, feeding directly into the UK system, or automatically introduce all aspects of UK visa policy. This would have constitutional implications. ( Though we could probably join Schengen if the govt. wanted, having voted for the Amsterdam treaty. )
This will leave Ireland as one of the smallest areas in Europe surrounded by passport controls, in the same league as places like Albania. Evidently some form of immigration control will have to be introduced between NI and GB and it will be interesting to see how this plays out politically.

I don't see how this is vote catching, I see this another encroachment on people's civil liberties, ala ID cards and 42 days detention. The whole idea of europe was freedom of movement yet it seems to be getting harder and harder.

I guess if Ireland stepped up to the mark so to speak that the British government would be happy again, but Ireland is obviously seen as an easy entrance point. If Ireland were to do it though, Why will it have constitutional issues?

ArthurF

ArthurF wrote: »

But I got the distinct impression that there will be spot checks between ROI & NI on the border, with the Garda & PSNI working closely together to stop 'illegals' traveling between UK & ROI ~ maybe I misunderstood?

I do appreciate that there will be further legislation regarding travel between NI & GB.

There will be no passport control anywhere on the land border between NI and the ROI ever so you are quite wrong to state that the thread title is wrong.
The thread title is right as it is to deal with travel between the Island of Gt Britain and the Island of Ireland.

What is likely to be fudged is some sort of arrangement where UK citizens will have to provide proof of their citizenry at all times entering the island of Ireland Via NI ports and airports.
This is something that the UK government can actually impose on NI because well simply,the westminister government is the government of NI.
They won't be blunt about it though and I suspect Unionists will be pragmatic about the fudge where some form of untamperable ID cards can be used.

If you are familiar with U.S airports,they have several layers of checks now including a guy at all airports with a magnifying glass and UV light examining U.S drivers licences for internal flights.
It's going to be another queue but shur thats the way of the world these days.

RDM_83

I could well see there being spot checks on certain routes between the North and ROI about for a time about two years ago I started to get the bus between derry and dublin during the day on a monday, the bus was stopped about three different times and the garda came on and checked ID's or asked questions. Each time this happened there was "non-european" people on the bus so I wonder if they have a tip off system.

I'm fairly sure in northern ireland there is already items on the books that ID's must be carried at all times.

However with the current UK political situation where the Unionists MPs can act as deal breakers (ie the detention commons vote) I can't see more checks coming in for Great Britain to Northern Ireland travel.


_effing boards signing me out and loosing my better written reply_

extragon

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If Ireland were to do it though, Why will it have constitutional issues?

Because it would mean handing over control of an important area of public policy to a foreign government? They'd try to fudge it somehow, but there'd be no equality here. To be within the electronic border Ireland would have to implement whatever the UK decided. Such an arrangement could be challenged in the courts.

Fratton Fred

extragon wrote: »

Because it would mean handing over control of an important area of public policy to a foreign government? They'd try to fudge it somehow, but there'd be no equality here. To be within the electronic border Ireland would have to implement whatever the UK decided. Such an arrangement could be challenged in the courts.

I can see your point, but is it about the UK dictating Irish policy or about the Irish Government introducing their own comparable policy which meets the standards the UK are after. The Irish government would be free to change any time they like.

Fratton Fred

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I can see your point, but is it about the UK dictating Irish policy or about the Irish Government introducing their own comparable policy which meets the standards the UK are after. The Irish government would be free to change any time they like.

Thats it.
It's rubbish to suggest that the Dáil deciding to impliment something that exactly mirrors something done in westminster has constitutional issues.

extragon

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Irish government would be free to change any time they like.

Not really, once the computer systems are in place, including, eventually, facilities for finger print scanning. If Ireland was inside this electronic border, then control of visa policy - and day to day changes on who is allowed into Ireland - would pass to the UK in a formal way. ( If not, the UK would still require border checks. )

It's a bit like allowing the ECB to control Irish monetary policy. Of course Ireland is free to leave the Eurozone, but it still required constitutional changes to enter into these arrangements.

The Common Travel Area is an informal administrative arrangement that the Brits aren't happy with ( though even it has been described by a former supreme court judge as "slightly constitutional." )

Fratton Fred

extragon wrote: »

Not really, once the computer systems are in place, including, eventually, facilities for finger print scanning. If Ireland was inside this electronic border, then control of visa policy - and day to day changes on who is allowed into Ireland - would pass to the UK in a formal way. ( If not, the UK would still require border checks. )

It's a bit like allowing the ECB to control Irish monetary policy. Of course Ireland is free to leave the Eurozone, but it still required constitutional changes to enter into these arrangements.

The Common Travel Area is an informal administrative arrangement that the Brits aren't happy with ( though even it has been described by a former supreme court judge as "slightly constitutional." )

I don't see what the difference is between the current situation and what could happen. Once you are in either the UK or Ireland you can move pretty freely between the two countries regardless of your nationality.

extragon

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't see what the difference is between the current situation and what could happen.

It's a question of the degree of cooperation that would be required. Ireland and UK would need to issue common visas, like the Schengen visa; the UK would need to be able to inspect and monitor Irish airports etc. This would require legislation, and thus be subject to the constitution. The Common Travel Area is governed by no legal statue ( it's only mention anywhere being in a protocol attached to the Amsterdam treaty )

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Once you are in either the UK or Ireland you can move pretty freely between the two countries regardless of your nationality.

In so far as that's true, that's what's going to change.

extragon

extragon wrote: »

Not really, once the computer systems are in place, including, eventually, facilities for finger print scanning. If Ireland was inside this electronic border, then control of visa policy - and day to day changes on who is allowed into Ireland - would pass to the UK in a formal way. ( If not, the UK would still require border checks. )

It's a bit like allowing the ECB to control Irish monetary policy. Of course Ireland is free to leave the Eurozone, but it still required constitutional changes to enter into these arrangements.

The Common Travel Area is an informal administrative arrangement that the Brits aren't happy with ( though even it has been described by a former supreme court judge as "slightly constitutional." )

What codswallop is this?
Ireland deciding to mirror any UK immigration policy visa vis non EU passports, is not the same as Ireland handing over the implimentation of that policy to the UK.

Leap into silly talk much I think.

extragon

Deleted User wrote: »

What codswallop is this?

Great analysis. However, Ireland mirroring UK policy could be the same as handing over implementation of said policy if this was part of a legal agreement. And there would have to be a treaty, similar to the Schengen agreement, for this to work properly ( Except, don't think Ireland would have an equal say in any joint policy. )

Informal arrangements ( like the former Sterling link, in contrast to the Euro? ) are not sufficiently watertight to suit the Brits, it seems. Why else are they introducing passport controls for entry to the UK? Do you think the Irish Goverment wants them? If not, why are they letting this happen? Have you any specific information about this?

Belfast

I think I heard recently that the uk govemernt may implement passport control on the ferries from Northern Ireland to to Great Britain.

there is some info on the irish times web site on this
Checks between North and rest of UK on way
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0728/1217013340820.html

Belfast

extragon wrote: »

It's about the UK plan for an "electronic border" - basically for vote catching nationalistic reasons, though justified by the "war on terror." Ireland is a major hole in this arrangement, it being unlikely we'd introduce exit controls for the first time ever, feeding directly into the UK system, or automatically introduce all aspects of UK visa policy. This would have constitutional implications. ( Though we could probably join Schengen if the govt. wanted, having voted for the Amsterdam treaty. )
This will leave Ireland as one of the smallest areas in Europe surrounded by passport controls, in the same league as places like Albania. Evidently some form of immigration control will have to be introduced between NI and GB and it will be interesting to see how this plays out politically.

If Ireland wanted to join the Schengen system I think we would need to a national id card.
I do not think it would very popular have to carry Id card that could be demanded by the Gardaí at any time.
It could also end up like the e-voting machines.

ArthurF

ArthurF wrote: »

But I got the distinct impression that there will be spot checks between ROI & NI on the border, with the Garda & PSNI working closely together to stop 'illegals' traveling between UK & ROI ~ maybe I misunderstood?

I do appreciate that there will be further legislation regarding travel between NI & GB.

surely they can do it at ferry ports and air ports etc why does it have to be along the border, this cant help the peace process, its also a pain in the ***

getz

over 1mill people go back and to between uk and ireland most are pensioners over 60 half british they are going to see family. a lot like me have never had a passport and would have problem proving nationalty i believe its all about the british goverment trying to get money out of the british who still have to pay for passports . unlike the irish pensioners who get them free

serfboard

From the Irish Times article quoted earlier:

The need for stiffer identity checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom is deemed inevitable by the British government since both it and the Irish Government accept that such controls along the Border are impractical

So, you're going to need a passport when travelling from one part of the UK to the other? I hope nobody tells the Scots or Welsh that

It makes the concept of a "United" Kingdom seem laughable.:rolleyes:

As a friend of mine, who was working in England at the time, said to his Northern Ireland Unionist colleague - "You might say you're British, and I might say I'm Irish, but over here, they think we're all the same".