Ambulances Speeding with no Emergency Lights On

trotter_inc

What is the story with ambulances that are speeding and overtaking dangerously when their emergency lights are off?

Was on the way in to work this morning and an ambulance jeep was overtaking people on bends and single white lines, came right up my arse and forced me in to the hard shoulder so that he/she could overtake.

This isnt the first time I've seen this happen, was driving down from Dublin and seen an ambulance, again with no emergency lights on, forcing people in to the hard shoulder and overtaking people with on coming traffic?

I thought that with their experience of cleaning up after car crashes that they'd realise more than most people the consequences of wreckless driving.

What is the story with this? Surely, if they are driving like this because they're on their way to an emergency they'd realise their lights arent on, right? Or, are they allowed to drive like this anytime they like?

Anan1

Funny you should say that, although i've never had a problem with them before, I did come upon an ambulance blocking the overtaking lane last week.

markpb

Some drivers say they only use their siren and lights if they absolutely have to (or if there's a risk such as a junction or pedestrians) because more than a few people freeze when they hear the siren coming up behind. I've seen people do the daftest things when they freeze and nine times out of ten, they make life harder for the driver.

There's a emergency services forum around here somewhere, maybe this post would be better there?

trotter_inc

markpb wrote: »

There's a emergency services forum around here somewhere, maybe this post would be better there?

Ah, never came across that, thanks!

dr.bollocko

I think when it comes to Ambulance drivers you kinda have to give them the benefit of the doubt.
When I see an ambulance coming up behind me at speed after some fast overtaking maneuvres, I dont automatically think "Oh golly, what a prick that driver of the emergency vehicle designed to save lives is for driving in such a manner."
I get out of the way. Then cross myself.

Because it's an ambulance.

trotter_inc

dr.bollocko wrote: »

I dont automatically think "Oh golly, what a prick that driver of the emergency vehicle designed to save lives is for driving in such a manner."

Neither do I, of course he has to drive fast and overtake to save lives.

What Im asking is if they're allowed to drive like this all the time?

It was a jeep that overtook me this morning, the driver overtook someone on a blind bend...Im sure the driver he overtook wasnt expecting it or even saw the jeep overtaking him. If this was an old person then I can imagine he got quite a shock to see a jeep overtaking him on a bad bend.

My issue here is not with ambulances speeding or overtaking, it's with them speeding or overtaking without any lights or sirens on...it's dangerous for ANY vehicle to do this!

Dirty_Diesel

There was a few ambulance drivers in Cork got into some trouble a few years back. They used to take the ambulance home for lunch, with the lights & sirens on :eek:

I thought that if the gardai/fire brigade/ambulance were breaking the speed limit, etc they had to have the lights on????

trotter_inc

Dirty_Diesel wrote: »

I thought that if the gardai/fire brigade/ambulance were breaking the speed limit, etc they had to have the lights on????

That's what I presumed too.

egan007

Lots of presumptions here.
How about presuming there is someone dying and get the F*ck out of the way

voxpop

A taxi driver once told me that he wont get out of the way of private ambulances when the two guys are in the front, whether lights are flashing or not. His logic was that if someone was in the back then the second guy would also be in the back, so two guys in the front means noone in the back and the ambulance is taking the piss.

btw what is an ambulance jeep ?

TheDriver

Lads, I do some work with voluntary ambulance sector. Lights and sirens can cause more blockage because people do indeed freeze, they brake suddenly and cause you to stop and wait to go around them.
We use lights and sirens with 2 people in the front because we are going to an accident which is probably more urgent than bringing the patient back.
Also remember the day is spend ferrying patients around hence the ambulance can be on the road a fair bit and its all about pushing to get from base to hospital all the time and ensuring that the vehicle is free.
Ambulance Jeep is a smaller ambulance usually for rapid response. It would be available to get to say cardiac arrests etc quickly before the big ambulance arrives.
You could be terribly anal and start analysing ambulance drivers speeding the odd time but to be fair, these lads are under pressure to help us when we call the 999 number, give them a break.
And to answer your q, we are not allowed to break any law officially but naturally with blue lights, its basically a blind eye turned to it.
I have had some scary moments driving with some serious casualties and some idiot pulling out and stoping in middle of road causing full scale braking, ye have no idea!

h3000

voxpop wrote: »

A taxi driver once told me that he wont get out of the way of private ambulances when the two guys are in the front, whether lights are flashing or not. His logic was that if someone was in the back then the second guy would also be in the back, so two guys in the front means noone in the back and the ambulance is taking the piss.

They do have to get to the emergency before they can return from the scene of the emergency to the hospital.

Honey-ec

voxpop wrote: »

A taxi driver once told me that he wont get out of the way of private ambulances when the two guys are in the front, whether lights are flashing or not. His logic was that if someone was in the back then the second guy would also be in the back, so two guys in the front means noone in the back and the ambulance is taking the piss.

Did it never cross his mind that perhaps they're on their way to the patient???

@sshole. Him, not you.

markpb

Honey-ec wrote: »

Did it never cross his mind that perhaps they're on their way to the patient???

h3000 wrote: »

They do have to get to the emergency before they can return from the scene of the emergency to the hospital.

How dare either of you question the best qualified drivers we have on the road?

trotter_inc

voxpop wrote: »

btw what is an ambulance jeep ?

A jeep/4x4 which says ambulance on the side of it...what did you think it was!?

trotter_inc

egan007 wrote: »

How about presuming there is someone dying and get the F*ck out of the way

If that's the case then their sirens and lights should be on. My point is that they are not

trotter_inc

TheDriver wrote: »

Lads, I do some work with voluntary ambulance sector. Lights and sirens can cause more blockage because people do indeed freeze, they brake suddenly and cause you to stop and wait to go around them.

Ok fair enough, but it should not be up to the driver to decide whether he should have his lights or sirens on, if there's an emergency then they should be on, full stop.

markpb

trotter_inc wrote: »

If that's the case then their sirens and lights should be on. My point is that they are not

Perhaps it would help if drivers were given some training about how to react when an ambulance is behind you? Then ambulance drivers could use the siren safely. It would be hard to test someone on this but even as part of the theory questions it would be useful for people to know that it's acceptable to nudge past a red light to let an ambulance through. Or that if you turn the front of your car into the footpath, you'll leave your tail sticking out and block the ambulance.

Obviously this should be in the context of a better driving test so I'll schedule it in for the fifth of never

voxpop

trotter_inc wrote: »

A jeep/4x4 which says ambulance on the side of it...what did you think it was!?

getting a bit uptight there arent we



I was pretty shocked by the Taxi guy alright - he did specify private ambulances - still an arse

trotter_inc

markpb wrote: »

Perhaps it would help if drivers were given some training about how to react when an ambulance is behind you? Then ambulance drivers could use the siren safely. It would be hard to test someone on this but even as part of the theory questions it would be useful for people to know that it's acceptable to nudge past a red light to let an ambulance through.

Great point.

Curvy Vixen

trotter_inc wrote: »

Ok fair enough, but it should not be up to the driver to decide whether he should have his lights or sirens on, if there's an emergency then they should be on, full stop.

It should be up to the emergency driver to ensure he does the best thing at the time. If that means no lights or sirens unless he needs to, then it's his experience that this is the best thing.

And that taxi driver is a w@nker! Private or otherwise, I hope he's standing there one day holding his breath waiting on the emergency services to arrive to help him or his loved ones whilst a taxi is poodling along in front of it purposely holding it up!

As someone who's Dad's life was saved by an ambulance jeep until the 'proper' ambulance could arrive and get him to hospital they can come running in a pink tutu with fairy lights screaming 'chase me chase me' for all I care!

trotter_inc

voxpop wrote: »

getting a bit uptight there arent we

Sorry about that

Getting annoyed here

_feedback_

voxpop wrote: »

A taxi driver once told me that he wont get out of the way of private ambulances when the two guys are in the front, whether lights are flashing or not. His logic was that if someone was in the back then the second guy would also be in the back, so two guys in the front means noone in the back and the ambulance is taking the piss.

That's just ridiculous in fairness.


Personally, I'd always allow ambulances to overtake easily where possible whether they are 'speeding' or not. If I see one 'cruising' up behind me, I'll always allow space for them to go by easily. I'm sure it makes the journey more comfortable for whoever is in the back not to have the ambulance manoevering (sp?) all over the road. Also helps make their journey a bit shorter.

trotter_inc

Curvy Vixen wrote: »

It should be up to the emergency driver to ensure he does the best thing at the time. If that means no lights or sirens unless he needs to, then it's his experience that this is the best thing.

Completely disagree with you here.

Answer me this: If a ambulance jeep is overtaking a row of cars on a blind bend should it have their lights and sirens on?

My whole point of this thread is that the jeep this morning did not and it was extremely dangerous.

trotter_inc

Personally, I'd always allow ambulances to overtake easily where possible whether they are 'speeding' or not. If I see one 'cruising' up behind me, I'll always allow space for them to go by easily.

I hope most people would be like that too, it's the right thing to do, Im the same.

voxpop

trotter_inc wrote: »

Sorry about that

No worries - I do agree with you btw. I think that they should at least have flashing lights or something. It could be pretty unnerving to get overtaken suddenly at high speed without any type of warning.
Then again Im not an ambulance driver and have seen some ppl do pretty strange things when an ambulance comes up behind them.

h3000

trotter_inc wrote: »

Completely disagree with you here.

Answer me this: If a ambulance jeep is overtaking a row of cars on a blind bend should it have their lights and sirens on?

My whole point of this thread is that the jeep this morning did not and it was extremely dangerous.

If the traffic was moving he should not be overtaking on a blind bend at all lights and sierns or not, it could very quickly become another emergency scene. If traffic was stoped and he had to go round the bend then yes they should use lights and sierns.

trotter_inc

h3000 wrote: »

If the traffic was moving he should not be overtaking on a blind bend at all lights and sierns or not, it could very quickly become another emergency scene. If traffic was stoped and he had to go round the bend then yes they should use lights and sierns.

I agree. This traffic was moving very well, I was doing about 100 kph, I was at the back of about 4 cars, he/she simply drove around us as we were on the bend, I only realised it was an ambulance as it passed me.

Alun

trotter_inc wrote: »

Ok fair enough, but it should not be up to the driver to decide whether he should have his lights or sirens on, if there's an emergency then they should be on, full stop.

I agree there. I've lived in a few different countries, and it appears to be common practice there to a) have lights on all the time, and b) to have sirens on most of the time, i.e. when there's any traffic about that might benefit from the warning.

My experience here is that it appears to be common practice to only use lights, and then to whack the siren on in a "get the *&^% out of my way" kind of way, rather than a "watch out I'm coming up behind you, make room for me" kind of way. Often, especially, in situations where traffic is heavy, by the time the sirens come on it's too late for traffic to give way, because they've stopped at a junction for example. The N11 with it's multitude of traffic lights is a prime example.

To my mind, this is the cause of the so-called freezing that some are complaining of here .. you've already stopped with no ambulance in sight, and then when it appears you're expected to move into a non existent gap. Simple solution, leave the sirens on all the time and give people a decent amount of warning.

Curvy Vixen

trotter_inc wrote: »

Completely disagree with you here.

Answer me this: If a ambulance jeep is overtaking a row of cars on a blind bend should it have their lights and sirens on?

My whole point of this thread is that the jeep this morning did not and it was extremely dangerous.

Well I think that the question should be more, should any vehicle be overtaking on a blind bend or not tbh?

Emergency or otherwise this is a dangerous (and illegal) thing to do and imo whether it had lights and sirens on or not would have made no difference. If it was truly a blind bend, then anything coming in the opposite direction would have had no chance to avoid it, lights and sirens or not...

Hanley

Alun wrote: »

I agree there. I've lived in a few different countries, and it appears to be common practice there to a) have lights on all the time, and b) to have sirens on most of the time, i.e. when there's any traffic about that might benefit from the warning.

My experience here is that it appears to be common practice to only use lights, and then to whack the siren on in a "get the *&^% out of my way" kind of way, rather than a "watch out I'm coming up behind you, make room for me" kind of way. Often, especially, in situations where traffic is heavy, by the time the sirens come on it's too late for traffic to give way, because they've stopped at a junction for example. The N11 with it's multitude of traffic lights is a prime example.

To my mind, this is the cause of the so-called freezing that some are complaining of here .. you've already stopped with no ambulance in sight, and then when it appears you're expected to move into a non existent gap. Simple solution, leave the sirens on all the time and give people a decent amount of warning.

It's amazing how something that should be so common sense is being debated and argued. If I hear the faint noise of an ambulance I check my mirrors to see if I can see it. As it gets louder I check again. This lets me prepare to move out of the way when it's near, if necessary. The only time I've ever "paniced" is when an ambulance/police car suddenly appears behind me and turns on it's sirens, beeps and flashes me. At that stage I just want to get out and punch the driver for being an idiot. Give people some advance warning and let them be proactive. Not reactive. It's such a simple concept.

And I always thought the point of the lights and sirens was to WARN other motorists that the ambulance is around. You know, on a blind bend or something!!

EDIT: And of course over taking on a blind bend is a down right stupid stunt to pull. Anyone with half a brain knows that. The time saved versus the possible consequences isn't a good enoguh justification. Especially at high speed.

trotter_inc

Curvy Vixen wrote: »

whether it had lights and sirens on or not would have made no difference. If it was truly a blind bend, then anything coming in the opposite direction would have had no chance to avoid it, lights and sirens or not...

Are you serious? Of course it would have made a difference, the cars it was overtaking could have had the time to pull in a little before they got to the bend!

voxpop

Hanley wrote: »

If I hear the faint noise of an ambulance I check my mirrors to see if I can see it. As it gets louder I check again. This lets me prepare to move out of the way when it's near, if necessary.

+1


Only every saw a problem myself when 2 lines of traffic were stopped at a junctions and the ambulance came tearing up behind. People still managed to get out of the way - only just.

Turner

Maybe maybe maybe....

Nobody knows. Maybe his lights and sirens were broken.

Maybe he has completed an advanced driving course which does include overtaking on blind bends with a continous white line.

Maybe his chips were getting cold :rolleyes::rolleyes:


With regard to overtaking on a blind bend, if you cross over onto the wrong side of the road on a blind bend you would be amazed how far into the bend you can see compared to drivers on the correct side of the road.

Its not part of standard driving courses offered to emergency services but is definitely part of advanced driving courses. Some traffic corps/eru/escort drivers in the gards have it completed. I dont know so cannot say about ambulance drivers.

Marcus.Aurelius

I agree with Chief, advanced driving does teach you how to peek around corners using road positioning, without compromising your safety, stability and manoeuvrability. If the driver is trained, well and good.

cyclopath2001

If I saw an ambulance in my mirror, lights or not, trying to overtake, I'd pull over onto the hard shoulder and let him past, if this was the best thing to do.

I don't think there's any legal rule about having to use the warning lights, just as I believe there may not be a full/automatic dispensation from from all road safety laws.

My understanding is that each time an emergency service vehicle breaks a normal rule, the driver knows he's responsible for the consequences and is relying on the sympathy of a judge if things get litigious.

Paulzx

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

My understanding is that each time an emergency service vehicle breaks a normal rule, the driver knows he's responsible for the consequences and is relying on the sympathy of a judge if things get litigious.

I've posted this before about the legal situation for drivers of emergency vehicles but i'll try and clarify it here as it has cropped up again.

Firstly, emergency service drivers are driving on their own license and can have it endorsed etc. whilst driving under blues.

Emergency drivers under blues are exempt from certain traffic bye laws such as red lights, one way streets etc. However the relevant legislation which i am only quoting from memory say that this is allowable only when it is " safe to do so". Obviously if you break a red light and are invlved in a collision it could be said that it was not " safe to do so" in the first place. The driver cannot be charged with the initial offence i.e breaking the red light but can be charged with dangerous driving etc.

Obviously there is no exemption from serious traffic offences such as drink driving or driving without a license

Supercell

From my days volunteering the "blues and twos" were only allowed when someone was actively being given cardio or other serious stuff in the back of the van, don't think they were allowed en route to an accident though (its been a good few years so may be wrong), which may be why you see ambulances speeding without the lights and sirens going.

I remember thinking at the time it would make more sense to have them on in all situations where it was possible progress may be impeded by traffic and as a result people would be less likely to "freeze" when they hear them.
People should definitely be tested during their driving test like they used to do for emergency breaking..ie tester says now you hear/see an ambulance/fire truck etc..and scores how the driver reacts.

The main reason though for not having them on though is legislature though, if i was in agony at the back of an ambulance I'd like if the blues and twos were on and I was sped to the A&E or whatever ASAP it has to be said.

Turner

There are no rules on putting on lights and sirens. Its at the drivers discretion.

They do not give you any right over any part of the roadway they simply alert people that you are coming.

Silvera

Curvy Vixen wrote: »

Well I think that the question should be more, should any vehicle be overtaking on a blind bend or not tbh?

Emergency or otherwise this is a dangerous (and illegal) thing to do and imo whether it had lights and sirens on or not would have made no difference. If it was truly a blind bend, then anything coming in the opposite direction would have had no chance to avoid it, lights and sirens or not...

Agree 100% !

parsi

voxpop wrote: »

A taxi driver once told me that he wont get out of the way of private ambulances

Do private ambulances answer 999/112 calls or are they just medically equipped taxis moving non-emergency patients ?

Eru

voxpop wrote: »

A taxi driver once told me that he wont get out of the way of private ambulances when the two guys are in the front, whether lights are flashing or not. His logic was that if someone was in the back then the second guy would also be in the back, so two guys in the front means noone in the back and the ambulance is taking the piss.

btw what is an ambulance jeep ?

What an asshole, typical really. People like to assume they know excatly whats going on and can make such calls when really if the vehicle wants to drive faster than you its not a big deal to simple allow them to.

I believe ambulance jeeps are for paramedics to attend certain scenes faster than being in an ambulance.

As for lights and sirens, the rule is not too use them for every emergency but only when its needed to move traffic or id yourself thats why ambulances rarely go from A to B with them constantly on but toggle between on and off as the situation dictates. People are saying they check when they hear a siren but the problem is a lot of people simple slow down or stop when they hear one. Imagine a crossroads where everyone was waiting for the ambulance to come along, it would in fact make it more difficult to get through the junction because no one is moving!

guil

when i was 9 i was in an rta and thrown 18ft and landed onn a metal shore head first, i dunno bout on the way over to the accident but on the way to the hospital the ambulance didnt turn on the sirens till they met heavy congestion at the liffey bridge in newbridge so i guess its up to the driver bout the sirens

BeardyGit

parsi wrote: »

Do private ambulances answer 999/112 calls or are they just medically equipped taxis moving non-emergency patients ?

There's every possibility a simple PTS job (Patient Transport Service) could turn into a blues and twos emergency. What's to say the patient didn't have an MI in the back of the bus?

Don't assume anything when you're looking at emergency services vehicles, either private, voluntary or state.... They might get their bread and butter work from different places, but it's the same public the lads behind the wheel want to serve....

Gil

TheDriver

Not to sound derogatory lads, but believe me you have absolutely no idea what its like to drive with blues on, there are some amount of panicers and total idiots and it is a fairly stressful driving situation. You can drive totally by the book with sirens on at the right time and some idiot of a driver just hammers on the brakes and actually blocks you, also fools tailgating, people listening to radios too loud, jwalkers with ipods on, the list is endless. People feel like they are authorities on the ambulance service but if its your Dad etc in the back, then you forget about them breaking laws and want them to get there quicker. Professionally, a fine balance is achieved.

Tails142

Not to sound derogatory lads, but believe me you have absolutely no idea what its like to drive with blues on, there are some amount of panicers and total idiots and it is a fairly stressful driving situation. You can drive totally by the book with sirens on at the right time and some idiot of a driver just hammers on the brakes and actually blocks you, also fools tailgating, people listening to radios too loud, jwalkers with ipods on, the list is endless. People feel like they are authorities on the ambulance service but if its your Dad etc in the back, then you forget about them breaking laws and want them to get there quicker. Professionally, a fine balance is achieved.

Yeah I saw a boy racer type car following on the bumper of an ambulance through traffic on a standard two lane road, couldnt believe what I was seeing.

I also had a very close call with a 'doctor' who was driving with his green lights flashing on the top of the car. No siren and we were approaching a roundabout on an N-road, he overtakes me on a solid line just before the roundabout, realises theres a traffic island, cuts in as there was another car coming off the roundabout towards him. He then totally loses control of his car, some type of estate and goes into a 360 spin and shoots off the roundabout onto a grass verge. By this stage I've stopped at the yield sign on the roundabout in total disbelief. The doctor gathers hismelf together and speeds off up the road. I was totally shocked to be honest as it was completly reckless of him. Fair play he was in a rush but it was comign up to a roundabout and there was fairly heavy traffic, two or three cars on my left so I couldnt pull over immediately, complete idiot.

dredre

parsi wrote: »

Do private ambulances answer 999/112 calls or are they just medically equipped taxis moving non-emergency patients ?

usually non-emergency work. but privates have been tasked to emergency calls by the HSE in certain areas where there is lack of cover and would also be used as a back up if there was a major emergency.

Balfa

http://www.naemd.org/articles/warningsystems1.htm wrote:

several studies clearly demonstrate that the siren is a severely limited warning device, effective only at very short ranges and very low speeds.

Although they seemed to mainly be examining their use as an aid in speeding through a junction.

Having said that, ambulances here always seem to use their sirens, and I'm always thankful they do. I almost always hear a siren long before any lights can be seen, even at night. I'd much rather have the advanced warning so I can make sure to get my wits about and carefully plan my evasion maneuvers.

One thing I really like over here is that emergency vehichles have an infrared signal or something that traffic lights receive so they can switch their lights green everywhere they go. I hadn't heard of that in Ireland, but maybe I just wasn't paying attention. Do they have that there?

MrPudding

trotter_inc wrote: »

Answer me this: If a ambulance jeep is overtaking a row of cars on a blind bend should it have their lights and sirens on?

My whole point of this thread is that the jeep this morning did not and it was extremely dangerous.

He shouldn’t be driving like this full stop. Whether or not he has the lights on is not really an issue. In the UK, not Ireland I know but probably similar, even the police are not actually allowed to cross solid white lines, even in a pursuit.

As a number of posters have pointed out blues and twos can cause more problems then they solve, and therefore most drivers will only use them where they have to. I am involved with a charity that does emergency out of hours blood delivery. We received a dispensation from the Thames Valley Police giving us the same privileges as ambulance drivers. They are, use blues and twos, treat red lights as a give way and cross traffic islands on the wrong side. No speeding. Ever. As an organisation we took the decision not to use any of these privileges, at least at the moment. The reason being it can be very dangerous. People can react is very strange ways and if there is an accident, as a result of a persons behaviour, the person with the lights on can be held responsible for what happens.

Within our organisation we are hoping to get a training course together in order to teach our riders what they need to know in order to ride with blues and twos. Until then we think it is too dangerous for amateurs. For professionals I would leave it to their discretion to decide whether or not they feel they are required at any point in time during an emergency run. I tend to find they have the lights on all the time on a run, but not the siren?

MrP

Fyr.Fytr

1) Its the drivers and olny the drivers decision as to wether emergency warning equipment is used, full stop.

2) private ambulances are often used tro transport very ill patients from one hospital to the other for life saving treatment, thus medical team travel dr's and nurses mainly so there will be no room for ambualnce attendee in the back so he sits in the front, or they could just be going to pick up a pt from hospital, so as said before the taxi driver is a pillock and lives up to the reputation they have.

3) The wail siren (long one) is used to give people very advanced warning your coming up, it can be heard for miles and miles, then as you approch other vehicles or junctions you switch to one of the shorter tones as A) its different and makes people take notice and b) it sounds more urgent and allows a safer passage past the obsticle. advisable not to leave the siren on the whole time as people become used to it and stop listening.

And yes it should be part of standard driver training what to do if approched by an emergency vehicle with its warning equipment switched on, as said the amount of people who panic and jam on is unreal, keep going until you find a safe place to move out of the way, we dont mind slowing down for a bit its the jamming on becuase someone is panicing in front that does the damage (trust me bruises to prove it from being bounced around )