Italy passes law to jail illegal immigrants

WooPeeA

Illegal immigrants heading for Italy are facing the prospect of up to four years in jail under a controversial new law that has been passed by the Senate.

The law makes being an illegal immigrant a crime and expulsions easier. It means landlords who rent lodgings to illegals could also go to prison for up to three years.

More + video:
http://www.euronews.net/en/article/23/07/2008/italy-passes-law-to-jail-illegal-immigrants/


Would you support similar law in Ireland? Should that be brought in the all European states?

axer

WooPeeA wrote: »

Would you support similar law in Ireland? Should that be brought in the all European states?

Yes and let the other states decide themselves what they want to do.

“The law goes against the principle of equality to say the least. I don’t know why someone should be punished more because they’re an illegal immigrant.”

That person is asking - "I don't know why someone would be punished for breaking the law" - WTF? The law is the law is the law and what are they being punished more than?

Illegal immigrants coming into this country should be arrested, detained and deported just like illegal Irish immigrants in the USA should be arrested, detained and deported.

Am I blind - I don't see any video.

EDIT: regarding the comment above. Punishing illegal immigrants for entering the country illegally actually goes with the principal of equality in that those who break the law should be punished equally and not let away with it.

Ronan|Raven

axer wrote: »

Yes and Yes.

That person is asking - "I don't know why someone would be punished for breaking the law" - WTF? The law is the law is the law.

Illegal immigrants coming into this country should be arrested, detained and deported just like illegal Irish immigrants in the USA should be arrested, detained and deported.

Am I blind - I don't see any video.

Well said, the lack of control on immigration in this and many countries is a joke with no real deterrent.

Vinegar Hill

Well said. Illegal immigration in this country is out of control. It is called "illegal" immigration and is against the law. Jail them and deport them. The same with bogus asylum seekers.

WooPeeA

axer wrote: »

Yes and let the other states decide themselves what they want to do.

No exactly... We decided to unite with each other, create a common market and our local European world with no country-borders. We, the Europeans don't need them today but the illegals might use it against us and against the law. So in my opinion the only right solution is to provide common policy against the illegal immigrants in whole EU member states.

That person is asking - "I don't know why someone would be punished for breaking the law" - WTF? The law is the law is the law and what are they being punished more than?

Illegal immigrants coming into this country should be arrested, detained and deported just like illegal Irish immigrants in the USA should be arrested, detained and deported.

Agree with that. But the difference between illegal Irish in USA and illegal Africans/Asians in Europe is that the Irish and Americans come from the western world, they can speak same language, believes in same values such as liberty, freedom etc..

Illegal immigrants from Africa can bring some disease, like HIV which is very frequent in Africa, and all that without any control! Also immigrants from some parts of the world refuse to integrate 'cause we Europeans "should be destroyed as we don't believe in this or that". I met people like that in the UK and was sick of listening to them...

Am I blind - I don't see any video.

I guess video has been removed today.. It worked yesterday.

MSTRKRFT

WooPeeA wrote: »

Illegal immigrants from Africa can bring some disease, like HIV which is very frequent in Africa, and all that without any control! Also immigrants from some parts of the world refuse to integrate 'cause we Europeans "should be destroyed as we don't believe in this or that". I met people like that in the UK and was sick of listening to them...

That's just blatant racism.

Anyway I don't know how big a problem illegal immigrants are in Italy, but believe any changes in laws governing this should be consistent with EU anti-immigration guidelines. I just wish other member states had the courage to implement this - including ourselves.

axer

WooPeeA wrote: »

Agree with that. But the difference between illegal Irish in USA and illegal Africans/Asians in Europe is that the Irish and Americans come from the western world, they can speak same language, believes in same values such as liberty, freedom etc..

The difference doesn't matter. The only important thing is that both are illegal. The illegal Irish are no better nor more wothy of being in a country illegally than any other group. In fact I would go as far to say that illegal immigrants from poorer countries are more worthy of being made legal since they need it moreso. It is much easier for an Irish person to make a comfortable living in Ireland or get well looked after by social welfare than it is for some of those poor people thus the africans/asians from poorer countries need it more.

WooPeeA wrote: »

Illegal immigrants from Africa can bring some disease, like HIV which is very frequent in Africa, and all that without any control!

and no illegal Irish have HIV? "Those disease ridden beasts should be kept out".

WooPeeA wrote: »

Also immigrants from some parts of the world refuse to integrate 'cause we Europeans "should be destroyed as we don't believe in this or that". I met people like that in the UK and was sick of listening to them...

Who are you quoting? I have met all sorts of extremists from many parts of the world including Ireland. I would not then tar each citizen of each of their countries with the same brush and think they are all against us.

WooPeeA

MSTRKRFT wrote: »

That's just blatant racism.

No, I'm not a racist. I'd just support some kind of selection made by officials, maybe some interview or bit different visas policy.. "Blue card" was also a great idea. Medical examination of candidates before they come? Why not. Also we could control the amount of newcomers.

But illegals are beyond any controls. Many commits crimes 'cause for them it's the only way to survive. Reducing illegal immigration should have in my opinion higher priority than it has today.

WooPeeA

axer wrote: »

The difference doesn't matter. The only important thing is that both are illegal. The illegal Irish are no better nor more wothy of being in a country illegally than any other group. In fact I would go as far to say that illegal immigrants from poorer countries are more worthy of being made legal since they need it moreso. It is much easier for an Irish person to make a comfortable living in Ireland or get well looked after by social welfare than it is for some of those poor people thus the africans/asians from poorer countries need it more.

Well.. But if you would give a resident status to all illegals, that would become a new encouragement for those who plan to cross the European border illegally..

Who are you quoting? I have met all sorts of extremists from many parts of the world including Ireland. I would not then tar each citizen of each of their countries with the same brush and think they are all against us.

I'm not saying that all of them are bad. I'm not also against immigration at all. I don't want to generalize but should we accept people that refuse to integrate with the others, learn the language and work? There are ghettos in Germany within people are living there for 2 generations and still cannot speak German.

There's so many people all over the world that dream about living in the place like Europe, learn the language and work here. Many of them are well educated and have skills that we need.. But their dreams are ruined by people like that, people that came here, refuse to work and lives for social benefits..

axer

WooPeeA wrote: »

Well.. But if you would give a resident status to all illegals, that would become a new encouragement for those who plan to cross the European border illegally..

I'm not saying to make them legal. I'm saying to throw them out no matter where they are from - nigeria or Ireland - once they are illegal immigrants.

WooPeeA wrote: »

I'm not saying that all of them are bad. I'm not also against immigration at all. I don't want to generalize but should we accept people that refuse to integrate with the others, learn the language and work? There are ghettos in Germany within people are living there for 2 generations and still cannot speak German.

English speakers are some of the worst offenders for this. Many english speakers expect others to speak english instead of learning the language of the locals.

Ghettos in Germany are due to a failure of government policy with regards the settlement of legal immigrants - not caused by illegal immigration.

WooPeeA wrote: »

people that came here, refuse to work and lives for social benefits..

You will find those types of people in every country - natives, legal immigrants and illegal immigrants.

eoin5

MSTRKRFT wrote: »

That's just blatant racism.

Anyway I don't know how big a problem illegal immigrants are in Italy, but believe any changes in laws governing this should be consistent with EU anti-illegal-immigration guidelines. I just wish other member states had the courage to implement this - including ourselves.

There, fixed

djpbarry

Vinegar Hill wrote: »

Illegal immigration in this country is out of control.

Is it? How many illegal immigrants are there in Ireland right now?

Vinegar Hill wrote: »

Jail them and deport them. The same with bogus asylum seekers.

What exactly is a "bogus asylum seeker" (genuine question)?

WooPeeA wrote: »

But illegals are beyond any controls. Many commits crimes 'cause for them it's the only way to survive.

You're rapidly losing credibility with your off-the-cuff remarks. Can you produce evidence showing "many" illegal immigrants are involved in crime?

I think it's far more likely that "many" illegal immigrants are being exploited by unscrupulous employers.

WooPeeA wrote: »

There are ghettos in Germany within people are living there for 2 generations and still cannot speak German.

As axer has already pointed out, this (if true) has little to do with illegal immigration. How many people in Germany cannot speak German?

It's an oft-repeated argument against immigration in general that many immigrants do not learn the native language in their adopted homes; Germany and the Netherlands are often used as examples, but I have yet to see any convincing supporting evidence. Considering the overwhelming majority of immigrants in Ireland speak English (and very good English at that, based on my experience), I find it hard to believe that immigrants in say, Germany, aren't bothered learning German. As for the Netherlands, as axer has already alluded to, I would not be at all surprised if the majority of non-Dutch speakers are native English-speakers.

WooPeeA wrote: »

There's so many people all over the world that dream about living in the place like Europe, learn the language and work here. Many of them are well educated and have skills that we need.. But their dreams are ruined by people like that, people that came here, refuse to work and lives for social benefits..

I'm not sure what you're getting at here? Illegal immigrants living for social benefits? What does that mean?

Munya

I always knew Italians were more intelligent.

corkfella

be careful guys, you're likely to be branded a racist for openly discussing imigration policy....

it is amazing that there has been no debate on this topic in ireland because certain people on the left immediately brand it as a racist to have a sensible immigration policy, I read last week of a flight we paid to repatriate some people to nigeria which cost the taxpayer 500k.

as for anecdotal evidence I have a friend teaching in dublin inner city school and the local irish kids are suffering because some of the kids do not have english, should this be allowed to go on? personally I don't think so.

axer

corkfella wrote: »

as for anecdotal evidence I have a friend teaching in dublin inner city school and the local irish kids are suffering because some of the kids do not have english, should this be allowed to go on? personally I don't think so.

The problem is you cannot segregate the children or you will have social problems later.

djpbarry

corkfella wrote: »

it is amazing that there has been no debate on this topic in ireland because certain people on the left immediately brand it as a racist to have a sensible immigration policy...

No debate, eh? I just did a quick search on boards.ie and found 77 threads with "immigration" in the thread title:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=2808254

corkfella wrote: »

I read last week of a flight we paid to repatriate some people to nigeria which cost the taxpayer 500k.

That's one ****ing expensive flight! Is this what you are referring to?

Irish Times wrote:

A GROUP of Nigerians was deported from the State on Tuesday night on a special charter flight to Lagos.

Gardaí confirmed yesterday that the flight was part of a joint operation involving nine European countries, including France, Spain and Germany. A total of 41 people were deported on the flight, seven of whom were Irish-based.

The only mention of cost is with regard to a separate operation:

Irish Times wrote:

In March a group of Ghanaians was deported from Dublin on a charter flight, having been assembled here from a number of European countries. Only one of those who travelled that day was deported by the Irish authorities.

Gardaí did not want to deport just one person on the aircraft, which seats about 110 people, and so offered other EU states seats for any Ghanaians they were waiting to deport. That operation was assisted by Frontex.

The operation is believed to have cost at least €100,000.

There is no mention of any €500k bill to the Irish taxpayer.

corkfella wrote: »

...I have a friend teaching in dublin inner city school and the local irish kids are suffering because some of the kids do not have english, should this be allowed to go on? personally I don't think so.

What do you propose should be changed?

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote: »

No debate, eh? I just did a quick search on boards.ie and found 77 threads with "immigration" in the thread title:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=2808254

I don't think he was talking about boards.ie. He was talking about debate in our national parliament.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

I don't think he was talking about boards.ie. He was talking about debate in our national parliament.

Fair enough; a search through the written records of the proceedings of Dáil Eireann shows 731 documents that refer to immigration, and that's just for 2007.

WooPeeA

axer wrote: »

English speakers are some of the worst offenders for this. Many english speakers expect others to speak english instead of learning the language of the locals.

I found few stats about it..:

Despite the high rate of foreign language teaching in schools, the number of adults claiming to speak a foreign language is generally lower than might be expected. This is particularly true of native English speakers: in 2004 a British survey showed that only one in 10 UK workers could speak a foreign language. Less than 5% could count to 20 in a second language, for example. 80% said they could work abroad anyway, because "everyone speaks English".

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Foreign-language

45% of EU citizens can take part in a conversation in a language other than their mother tongue.
In Luxembourg, nearly everyone can do this.
In the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden more than 8 in 10 can do this.
In the UK, Ireland and Portugal less than a third can do this.
In the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden 3 out of 4 can speak English well enough to hold a conversation.

http://www.promotics.net/ticktack/survey/eustats.htm

I wonder have they consider Irish as "foreign" language..

corkfella

djpbarry wrote: »

No debate, eh? I just did a quick search on boards.ie and found 77 threads with "immigration" in the thread title:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=2808254
That's one ****ing expensive flight! Is this what you are referring to?
The only mention of cost is with regard to a separate operation:
There is no mention of any €500k bill to the Irish taxpayer.
What do you propose should be changed?

I know that there has been plenty of debate heree but I am refering to the media or the dail, like him or not kevin myers has tried to get the topic going in mainstream media but he gets shouted down as a racist.

the reason I said 500k was it was quoted on today fm news, it seems incredibly expensive but it may include ancillary costs that were not mentioned.

In respect of kids eho cant speak english in our primary schools I don't know, I have a friend in london who teaches and they and they have aides with the necessary language skills but this costs money and our governement prefer to pout this into the hse hole.

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote: »

Fair enough; a search through the written records of the proceedings of Dáil Eireann shows 731 documents that refer to immigration, and that's just for 2007.

A simple word search on a website is not going to be much help as it doesn't give the context in which the word was used. Of course the word 'immigration' has been used plenty of times but so have plenty of other words. Do a search on the word 'eurovision' and you'll get over 120 results, a search on 'cowboy films' returns 11 results.

A quick look through the results of that search shows no evidence of any meaningful debate. My idea of a debate would a situation where people holding particular views on the issue express those views in the presence of people who hold opposing views. I don't think there has ever been any debate matching that description in the Dail.

At least 50% of the population believe that we should have stricter limits on immigration. I might be wrong but I don't believe there is a single TD who has come out publicly in support of that position. Even if they didn't themselves share that view they could at least acknowledge the huge level of unease among the population about the current numbers we're taking in.

As with the Lisbon treaty, it could just be that our elected representatives are completely out of touch with public opinion. I think the real reason is that people are afraid of coming out and openly expressing a view that might lead to them being labeled racists.

djpbarry

corkfella wrote: »

I know that there has been plenty of debate heree but I am refering to the media or the dail...

As I showed a few posts back, there is plenty of debate in the Dáil on the issue. I find it amazing that people actually think that immigration is never discussed at government level. Do you think they just refer to it as "The 'I' Word"?

corkfella wrote: »

...like him or not kevin myers has tried to get the topic going in mainstream media but he gets shouted down as a racist.

Kevin Myers is a sensationalist who will write absolutely anything to rile people and in my opinion, he is, at the very least, xenophobic.

corkfella wrote: »

In respect of kids eho cant speak english in our primary schools I don't know, I have a friend in london who teaches and they and they have aides with the necessary language skills but this costs money and our governement prefer to pout this into the hse hole.

The Department of Education and Science provides, to schools that need them, language support teachers to teach English as an additional language. This, of course, costs money. But presumably, the parents of these children are working and paying their taxes and, as such, their children are entitled to receive an education in this country. Besides, this problem is unlikely to be a long-term one, as it is improbable that we will have the same volume of non-English speaking children in this country in the future.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

Of course the word 'immigration' has been used plenty of times but so have plenty of other words. Do a search on the word 'eurovision' and you'll get over 120 results...

I got 2.

O'Morris wrote: »

...a search on 'cowboy films' returns 11 results.

Surprisingly, I got zero.

O'Morris wrote: »

A quick look through the results of that search shows no evidence of any meaningful debate.

Maybe you should look harder. Is this not meaningful discussion? What about this?

O'Morris wrote: »

My idea of a debate would a situation where people holding particular views on the issue express those views in the presence of people who hold opposing views.

In other words you want to see two extremist groups have a screaming match, when you forget that Irish politics is decidedly centrist (with the exception of Sinn Féin) and most parties (if not all) in this country have similar views on immigration

Anyway, this is all off-topic as the thread is about jailing illegal immigrants.

bill_ashmount

Great news. These people are breaking the law, therefore they should be subject to it.

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote:

I got 2.

Surprisingly, I got zero.

That's just for the year 2007.

Type these search strings into google

"cowboy films site:historical-debates.oireachtas.ie"

"eurovision site:historical-debates.oireachtas.ie"

djpbarry wrote:

Maybe you should look harder. Is this not meaningful discussion? What about this?

A meaningful discussion? Those are just single questions and their responses. I hardly think that qualifies as a debate. Can you find a single question in the records where the person asking the question is off the view that immigration might be too high and that we might need to consider doing something to reduce the numbers?

djpbarry wrote:

In other words you want to see two extremist groups have a screaming match

Where did I suggest that? Are you implying that it's only extremist groups who hold differing views on immigration? The main political parties in Britain can openly discuss the issue and they're a long way away from being extremists.

djpbarry wrote:

when you forget that Irish politics is decidedly centrist (with the exception of Sinn Féin)

And centrist parties don't have opinions on immigration?

djpbarry wrote:

most parties (if not all) in this country have similar views on immigration

Yes, most parties hold politically-correct views on the subject, that's obvious. However, I don't think the same can be said for the supporters of those parties. I know several shinners who aren't too enthusiastic about their party's far-left position on immigration.

djpbarry wrote:

Anyway, this is all off-topic

Alright then, I'll stop now. No more discussion about whether we've had a proper debate on immigration. We should stick to the subject of illegal immigration. It's a pity you can't reply to these comments but I'm happy enough to have the last word.

djpbarry wrote:

the thread is about jailing illegal immigrants.

I'm all in favour of it but I would prefer if they were instantly deported.

What do you think should be done with them?

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

A meaningful discussion? Those are just single questions and their responses.

That’s pretty much how things operate in the Dáil; someone asks a question or makes a point and someone else responds. In fact, that’s generally how most debates work.

O'Morris wrote: »

Can you find a single question in the records where the person asking the question is off the view that immigration might be too high and that we might need to consider doing something to reduce the numbers?

I don’t have the time to trawl through those records, but the absence of such a question would not prove that there is an absence of debate. I would be very surprised if levels of immigration into this country had never been discussed in the Dáil.

I am not discussing this any further as you are attempting to derail yet another thread with these views. As I have said to you on at least two other occasions, if you feel you are not being properly represented in the Dáil, then go talk to your TD’s about it.

O'Morris wrote: »

What do you think should be done with them?

If they are able-bodied and can be deported to a safe location, then that is what should be done.

dlofnep

If you are illegal, you should be deported unless you have a valid claim (ie: human rights abuses back in your home country and are fleeing for your life, etc.)

magick

dlofnep wrote: »

If you are illegal, you should be deported unless you have a valid claim (ie: human rights abuses back in your home country and are fleeing for your life, etc.)

completely agree, ur already breaking the law, deported or sent to jail

djpbarry

magick wrote: »

completely agree, ur already breaking the law, deported or sent to jail

Why send them to jail? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

axer

djpbarry wrote: »

Why send them to jail? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

To punish them for breaking the law?

Illegal immigrants are not being punished by being just thrown out of the country since they are in the same position as they were before they broke the law. That would be akin to me stealing a car. The cops find me with the stolen car and just take the car off of me without punishing me by sending me to jail.

Before the threat of jail a person could try to illegally enter a country when they knew that the worst case scenario is they would be just thrown back out again - that doesn't really sound like something that would discourage attempts.

djpbarry

axer wrote: »

To punish them for breaking the law?

Illegal immigrants are not being punished by being just thrown out of the country since they are in the same position as they were before they broke the law. That would be akin to me stealing a car. The cops find me with the stolen car and just take the car off of me without punishing me by sending me to jail.

It's not quite the same thing. A better analogy I think would be trespassing - hardly worthy of a jail sentence. Besides, I would imagine deportation is cheaper than supporting prisoners in jail.

I think a much better way to tackle illegal immigration (in this country at least) would be stricter penalties for employers who employ illegal immigrants (together with greater enforcement of said penalties), which should reduce the number of employers who are prepared to take the risk (I'm not sure how big a problem this is in Ireland at present). If employers are unwilling to employ illegal immigrants, then a large incentive is removed.

axer

djpbarry wrote: »

It's not quite the same thing. A better analogy I think would be trespassing - hardly worthy of a jail sentence.

Trespass is not a criminal offence. Being an illegal immigrant is.

djpbarry wrote: »

Besides, I would imagine deportation is cheaper than supporting prisoners in jail.

I'm sure it is. I think they are trying it as a deterent though since there is no real punishment in deportation.

djpbarry wrote: »

I think a much better way to tackle illegal immigration (in this country at least) would be stricter penalties for employers who employ illegal immigrants (together with greater enforcement of said penalties), which should reduce the number of employers who are prepared to take the risk (I'm not sure how big a problem this is in Ireland at present). If employers are unwilling to employ illegal immigrants, then a large incentive is removed.

A two pronged approach might work better. Stricter penalties for offending employers and stricter penalties for offending illegal immigrants.