IRA/UVF killings

ballybay_eh

Apologies if this topic is a bit sensitive. I'll remove if others feel it is.

I remember my father told me a story when I was young about some of the killings that took place during the Troubles. One story in particular came back to me recently but I can only remember the vaguest details about it.

Apparently a Gaelic football team were on their way back from a football match and there bus was stopped by either the IRA or the UVF (can't remember). They were made to get out of the bus and line up. They were then asked one by one what religion they were. All the players except for one were Catholic/Protestant (again, can't remember). All the players were shot except for the one player of the different religion.

Hopefully that will refresh someone's memory and they can fill in the gaps. It may be a sort of urban legend of the hatred and brutality of the times but I would like to know the full details. When? Where? And which "side" actually did the killing.

Duff

Can open...worms everywhere.

Piste

It was common for both the IRA/UVF to kidnap people on the way home from work and ask them if they were Catholic or Protestant, you'd have to second-guess your attacker and try to guess what religion they were.

Another thing was that they'd make you recite the Lords prayer and they could tell which religion you were by the ending of it, again you'd have to try and second-guess them.

The story your heard could very well be true or an amalgamation of a few incidents that happened up there.

Phlann

I don't know how true the story is, I've heard a few different versions of it.

The general theme is that they were stopped by a group of people they assumed were the IRA who demanded to know which one of them was the protestant.

They figured he'd be shot so they didn't give him up, eventually he owned up himself and as it happens they were loyalist paramilitaries and they shot the catholics, leaving him alive.

Now I've heard it told the other way around too so I don't know if a story exactly like that one ever happened

beautiation

What if you were Hindu?

Phlann

You have to choose one of

a) Chinese burn
b) Nipple Cripple
c) Pink belly

War is hell.

DublinWriter

beautiation wrote: »

What if you were Hindu?

Then they'd ask you if you're a Catholic Hindu, or a Protestant Hindu.

Defenestrate

There's a reason why history like this should stay in the history books... Some people need to just move on and grow up.

Latchy

DublinWriter wrote: »

Then they'd ask you if you're a Catholic Hindu, or a Protestant Hindu.

northern or southern ireland ?

Piste

DublinWriter wrote: »

Then they'd ask you if you're a Catholic Hindu, or a Protestant Hindu.

Hehe yup, I was just about to say!

biko

A guy is walking down the street in Belfast, suddenly he feels the barrel of a gun against the back of his neck.

"Now would you be Protestant, or would you be Catholic?"

Thinking quickly, he says, "I'm a Jew!"

There's a pause, and then, "I'm the luckiest Palestinian in Belfast."

Phlann

biko wrote: »

A guy is walking down the street in Belfast, suddenly he feels the barrel of a gun against the back of his neck.

"Now would you be Protestant, or would you be Catholic?"

Thinking quickly, he says, "I'm a Jew!"

There's a pause, and then, "I'm the luckiest Palestinian in Belfast."

I was just trying to remember that joke :pac:

Latchy

That's the one i remember to :pac:

ballybay_eh

Defenestrate wrote: »

There's a reason why history like this should stay in the history books... Some people need to just move on and grow up.

That's a ridiculous statement. You can't just ignore events like this from our country's history. I think its an ignorant view and is disrespectful to those affected by it. It also shows us how far we've come and is useful as a warning to future generations as to the effects of blind hatred and prejudice towards those of different beliefs.

Thanks to those who made a genuine attempt to answer my question.

Bottle_of_Smoke

biko wrote: »

A guy is walking down the street in Belfast, suddenly he feels the barrel of a gun against the back of his neck.

"Now would you be Protestant, or would you be Catholic?"

Thinking quickly, he says, "I'm a Jew!"

There's a pause, and then, "I'm the luckiest Palestinian in Belfast."

I like the ending "Mohammed, we have him!"

Latchy

ballybay_eh wrote: »

That's a ridiculous statement. You can't just ignore events like this from our country's history. I think its an ignorant view and is disrespectful to those affected by it. It also shows us how far we've come and is useful as a warning to future generations as to the effects of blind hatred and prejudice towards those of different beliefs.

Thanks to those who made a genuine attempt to answer my question.

I agree .I just finished reading The Miami showband massacre ,co written by Stephen Travers / Neil Fetherstonhaugh and although i remember the tragedy at the time all to well, it wasnt till i read this sad personell and very moving account by survivor Stepehen Travers that i began to understand better how and why it happened . All the murders that took place in NI and Republic over the troubles was a tragedy weather victims were protestant or catholic . I think this book is up there as a great guide and useful reference, as a warning to future generation as to the effects of blind hatred and prejudice towards those of different beliefs.

gurramok

OP may be thinking of the Kingsmill massacre in Armagh which was part of a tit for tat bloody episode at the time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsmill_massacre

It didn't involve GAA players though

Defenestrate

ballybay_eh wrote: »

That's a ridiculous statement. You can't just ignore events like this from our country's history. I think its an ignorant view and is disrespectful to those affected by it. It also shows us how far we've come and is useful as a warning to future generations as to the effects of blind hatred and prejudice towards those of different beliefs.

Thanks to those who made a genuine attempt to answer my question.

Sure, history is important but bringing up the events of particularly brutal incidents and asking 'whodunnit?' just seems antagonistic to me, that's all. Still, I suppose it's boring to study something like the history of medicine...

DublinWriter

latchyco wrote: »

I agree .I just finished reading The Miami showband massacre ,co written by Stephen Travers / Neil Fetherstonhaugh and although i remember the tragedy at the time all to well, it wasnt till i read this sad personell and very moving account by survivor Stepehen Travers that i began to understand better how and why it happened . All the murders that took place in NI and Republic over the troubles was a tragedy weather victims were protestant or catholic . I think this book is up there as a great guide and useful reference, as a warning to future generation as to the effects of blind hatred and prejudice towards those of different beliefs.

Knowing the son of one of those killed in the Miami Massacre, I can say that the scars still run pretty deep for a lot of people directly involved.

Both Protestants and Catholics members of the band were killed in that senseless act.

Back on track, I think the OP was being genuine in trying to get details on a specific incident of the troubles and didn't merit the usual grandstanding by those whom by my definition - anonymously have Internet, anonymously will rant.

Latchy

Defenestrate wrote: »

Sure, history is important but bringing up the events of particularly brutal incidents and asking 'whodunnit?' just seems antagonistic to me, that's all. Still, I suppose it's boring to study something like the history of medicine...

i can understand were you are coming from and on seeing the thread title some might think ' antagonistic sunbject ' .It's not a comfortable subject i suppose and may bring back to people painful memories they have blanked out or would otherwise wish to forget, and perfectly understandable to .

DublinWriter wrote: »

Knowing the son of one of those killed in the Miami Massacre, I can say that the scars still run pretty deep for a lot of people directly involved.

Both Protestants and Catholics members of the band were killed in that senseless act.

Back on track, I think the OP was being genuine in trying to get details on a specific incident of the troubles and didn't merit the usual grandstanding by those whom by my definition - anonymously have Internet, anonymously will rant.

as my post above before i saw yours

QUOTE]

philologos

ballybay_eh wrote: »

That's a ridiculous statement. You can't just ignore events like this from our country's history. I think its an ignorant view and is disrespectful to those affected by it. It also shows us how far we've come and is useful as a warning to future generations as to the effects of blind hatred and prejudice towards those of different beliefs.

Thanks to those who made a genuine attempt to answer my question.

Indeed we should remember it but we should also remember that both sides have had blood on their hands.

The Al Lad

beautiation wrote: »

What if you were Hindu?

They'd bring you home and make you make them a curry

gurramok wrote: »

OP may be thinking of the Kingsmill massacre in Armagh which was part of a tit for tat bloody episode at the time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsmill_massacre

It didn't involve GAA players though

Did the kingsmill masacre not involve lots of bread being milled down by hungry paramilitaries ???

Latchy

DublinWriter wrote: »

Back on track, I think the OP was being genuine in trying to get details on a specific incident of the troubles and didn't merit the usual grandstanding by those whom by my definition - anonymously have Internet, anonymously will rant.

Anonymously which is you I, and just about everybody but i agree .Some react to a thread such as this in a humourous way because it's just there way of dealing with it .

PrivateEye

There's a reason why history like this should stay in the history books... Some people need to just move on and grow up.

Yeah, all them feckin' Bloody Sunday relatives should just like, get over it, and move on :rolleyes:

Do an image search for Bloody Sunday, or read about the relatives of victims in places like Omagh, and learn why we can't just 'move on' in Ireland at the drop of a hat.

It's very important the state-killers of Bloody Sunday (some of whom I imagine would still even have some role in the British armed forces? ) and the 'brave and bold' carbombers of both sides are brought to justice, then maybe we can move on.

"And when I came where thirteen died

It shrivelled up my heart. I sighed
And looked about that brutal place

Of rage and terror and disgrace"

-Thomas Kinsella

There's a time to move on, it normally follows justice

kraggy

latchyco wrote: »

northern or southern ireland ?

****ing hate that.

Live in England and am always asked if I'm from Northern or Southern Ireland.

I'm from Galway so I always say I'm from the West, cue puzzled look on their face.

Latchy

kraggy wrote: »

****ing hate that.

Live in England and am always asked if I'm from Northern or Southern Ireland.

I'm from Galway so I always say I'm from the West, cue puzzled look on their face.

well that quote of mine was to do with the joke ie, a southern irish hindu or northern irish hindu ? which may have being lost on one or two but as i also live in england i understand what your saying .I think a lot of people know the different accents but the less informed think of the troubles when they encounter a lot of irish for sure .

marco murphy

Most likely Kingsmill. One of the darkest days of the conflict no doubt.

kraggy

latchyco wrote: »

well that quote of mine was to do with the joke ie, a southern irish hindu or northern irish hindu ? which may have being lost on one or two but as i also live in england i understand what your saying .I think a lot of people know the different accents but the less informed think of the troubles when they encounter a lot of irish for sure .

Oh yeah, I understand. Wasn't havin a dig at you.

Latchy

kraggy wrote: »

Oh yeah, I understand. Wasn't havin a dig at you.

oh no, not for a second did i think you were friend

stovelid

biko wrote: »

A guy is walking down the street in Belfast, suddenly he feels the barrel of a gun against the back of his neck.

"Now would you be Protestant, or would you be Catholic?"

Thinking quickly, he says, "I'm a Jew!"

There's a pause, and then, "I'm the luckiest Palestinian in Belfast."

I always liked the one: why were there no mods in Belfast? A: would you walk round up there with a target on your back?

OP: you're almost certainly thinking of the Kingsmill massacre. The IRA shot a group (10 or 11) of protestant workmen, with a single catholic (who identified himself as such) surviving. The story was that the protestants tried to hide the catholic because they thought it was a UDR/Loyalist attack.

marco murphy

The IRA shot a group (10 or 11) of protestant workmen, with a single catholic (who identified himself as such) surviving. The story was that the protestants tried to hide the catholic because they thought it was a UDR/Loyalist attack.

I wouldn't say that. It's highly likely a member or members of the IRA carried it out, but it wasn't an official operation.

Phlann

I was reading about it earlier and apparently the intelligence reports from informants indicated that it may well have been sanctioned by one or two members of the council without the knowledge of the others (if we're talking about the Kingsmill incident).

But it's always murky waters with the IRA... what they knew or didn't know, what they sanctioned or didn't sanction, the only people who know for sure are the ones who were there and for the most part they're not talking.

stovelid

Poblachtach wrote: »

I wouldn't say that. It's highly likely a member or members of the IRA carried it out, but it wasn't an official operation.

Thanks for clearing that up. If that's so, do you know offhand if they were punished, or expunged from the IRA as a result?

marco murphy

Phlann wrote: »

I was reading about it earlier and apparently the intelligence reports from informants indicated that it may well have been sanctioned by one or two members of the council without the knowledge of the others (if we're talking about the Kingsmill incident).

Hardly a credible source. Informers have said lots of things.

But it's always murky waters with the IRA... what they knew or didn't know, what they sanctioned or didn't sanction, the only people who know for sure are the ones who were there and for the most part they're not talking.

Theres always that in any war or any army.

stovelid wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up. If that's so, do you know offhand if they were punished, or expunged from the IRA as a result?

I don't know at all, and never will I'm sure. I don't know for certain if it was IRA members, but I reckon it was, with the weapons that were used and that.

Phlann

I see.

I should have noticed your username before replying.

PrivateEye

In 1983, men claiming to represent the Catholic Reaction Force used machine guns to attack a Pentecostal Church in Keady, Armagh. Three members of the congregation were killed.

Apparently the Catholic Reaction Force were actually brave 'socialist republicans' from the INLA :rolleyes: Suppose that was in Connollys vision


--

Through the history of the North a far greater number of sectarian attacks were carried out by loyalist deathsquads (The lads who were shot watching an Irish football match, the famous 'butchers, attacking people in cemetaries etc.) but I'm a firm believer that you can't weigh up the bodies and decide who came off as being 'less sectarian'. It happened as a result of guns that wanted a united Ireland as well as guns that wanted to 'protect the empire' and too many people lost their lives at the hands of it. I really don't think things can really move on properly in the North until justice is delievered in a fair few cases (Bloody Sunday in particular, if Bloody Sunday remains the way it is nationalists will never have any faith in the British government)

flanum

Op, sounds like the Kingsmill your talkin about.

a lot of bad things happened, a lot of hurt happened a lot of time.

try and get the chance to read up on the lenny murphy mob "shankhill butchers"!

now that was mad bad horrible stuff!

it happened!! only up the road from wherever ye live! (its only a wee country)!

(from wiki...).. :

The "Shankill Butchers" were a group of Ulster Volunteer Force members in Belfast, Northern Ireland, who abducted Roman Catholics usually walking home from a night out, tortured and/or savagely beat and killed them, usually by cutting their throats. Most of their victims had no connection to the Provisional Irish Republican Army or any other paramilitary group.

The leader of the Shankill Butchers was Lenny Murphy. At school he was a bully and a thief, and as soon as he left at the age of 16, he became a member of the Ulster Volunteer Force.[citation needed]

By 1972, age 20, Murphy gathered together a gang of equally violent young men, the core being Murphy himself, Robert "Basher" Bates, and "Big" Sam McAllister, who used his huge frame to intimidate the Butchers' victims. In what is said to have been retaliation for the Bloody Friday bombings by the Provisional IRA, a Catholic man, Francis Arthurs, was abducted, beaten, and stabbed for over an hour before being killed.

The murder of Tom Madden is seen as one of the most terrible examples of the Butchers' brutality. Madden was abducted and then stripped naked. He was hung upside down from the beam of a lock-up garage, and slowly skinned alive. He eventually died of slow strangulation.

On September 28, 1972, Murphy shot and killed William Pavis, who was suspected of selling arms to the IRA. Murphy and his accomplice, Mervyn Connor, were arrested shortly afterwards and held in prison awaiting trial. However, Murphy killed Connor in prison, just after forcing him to write a confession to Pavis' murder. The charges against Lenny Murphy relating to the murder of Pavis collapsed, although Murphy was held behind bars for a number of escape attempts.

In May 1975, Murphy was released from prison. He married and fathered a daughter, but like the rest of his gang he cared little for domesticity and would spend most of his time hanging around pubs on the Shankill Road, drinking heavily and plotting crimes. That October they raided a shop, and on finding out the four employees there were Catholics, Murphy shot three of them dead and ordered an accomplice to kill the fourth.

Another key figure of the Shankill Butchers was William Moore. He had worked as a butcher and had stolen several large knives and meat-cleavers from his old workplace, tools that would be put to a horrific use. Over the coming months, the gang began kidnapping Catholics late at night and viciously killing them.

Francis Crossan, aged 34 and father of two, was walking home from a night out, when he was spotted by one of the gang. This was around 12-12:30am. He was hit from behind with a wheel brace, and dragged into a taxi, which drove into the Shankill area. Francis was then tortured and badly beaten. He was repeatedly hit by Murphy, both punched and with the wheel brace. Murphy repeatedly said things like, "I'm going to kill you, you bastard!" Francis was then dragged into an alley, and his throat cut almost through the spine by Murphy. Pieces of glass found in Francis' head showed that a beer glass had been shoved into his head, either in the black taxi, or in the alley. The other victims were killed in a similarly horrific manner.

The Shankill Butchers also got into a loyalist feud with another gang, which quickly ended when Murphy brutally killed a member of the rival gang. There is much evidence to suggest Murphy and his fellow murderers were more like serial killers than terrorists, and that the political situation in Ulster allowed them a respect within their community they never would have had otherwise. They occasionally used guns, but preferred knives and cleavers, and rather than carry out crimes that were carefully planned, the gang usually went out hunting on a whim, usually at night after spending all evening drinking heavily. On one occasion Murphy and Bates impulsively shot and killed two Protestants, believing incorrectly that they were Catholics.

In March 1976, Murphy shot and injured a Catholic woman. He was arrested and subsequently pleaded guilty to a firearms charge. He ordered the murders to continue, and over the next year, with William Moore acting as the new leader, several more Catholics were abducted, tortured and hacked to death.The "Shankill Butchers" were a group of Ulster Volunteer Force members in Belfast, Northern Ireland, who abducted Roman Catholics usually walking home from a night out, tortured and/or savagely beat and killed them, usually by cutting their throats. Most of their victims had no connection to the Provisional Irish Republican Army or any other paramilitary group.

The leader of the Shankill Butchers was Lenny Murphy. At school he was a bully and a thief, and as soon as he left at the age of 16, he became a member of the Ulster Volunteer Force.[citation needed]

By 1972, age 20, Murphy gathered together a gang of equally violent young men, the core being Murphy himself, Robert "Basher" Bates, and "Big" Sam McAllister, who used his huge frame to intimidate the Butchers' victims. In what is said to have been retaliation for the Bloody Friday bombings by the Provisional IRA, a Catholic man, Francis Arthurs, was abducted, beaten, and stabbed for over an hour before being killed.

The murder of Tom Madden is seen as one of the most terrible examples of the Butchers' brutality. Madden was abducted and then stripped naked. He was hung upside down from the beam of a lock-up garage, and slowly skinned alive. He eventually died of slow strangulation.

On September 28, 1972, Murphy shot and killed William Pavis, who was suspected[citation needed] of selling arms to the IRA. Murphy and his accomplice, Mervyn Connor, were arrested shortly afterwards and held in prison awaiting trial. However, Murphy killed Connor in prison, just after forcing him to write a confession to Pavis' murder. The charges against Lenny Murphy relating to the murder of Pavis collapsed, although Murphy was held behind bars for a number of escape attempts.

In May 1975, Murphy was released from prison. He married and fathered a daughter, but like the rest of his gang he cared little for domesticity and would spend most of his time hanging around pubs on the Shankill Road, drinking heavily and plotting crimes. That October they raided a shop, and on finding out the four employees there were Catholics, Murphy shot three of them dead and ordered an accomplice to kill the fourth.

Another key figure of the Shankill Butchers was William Moore. He had worked as a butcher and had stolen several large knives and meat-cleavers from his old workplace, tools that would be put to a horrific use. Over the coming months, the gang began kidnapping Catholics late at night and viciously killing them.

Francis Crossan, aged 34 and father of two, was walking home from a night out, when he was spotted by one of the gang. This was around 12-12:30am. He was hit from behind with a wheel brace, and dragged into a taxi, which drove into the Shankill area. Francis was then tortured and badly beaten. He was repeatedly hit by Murphy, both punched and with the wheel brace. Murphy repeatedly said things like, "I'm going to kill you, you bastard!" Francis was then dragged into an alley, and his throat cut almost through the spine by Murphy. Pieces of glass found in Francis' head showed that a beer glass had been shoved into his head, either in the black taxi, or in the alley. The other victims were killed in a similarly horrific manner.

The Shankill Butchers also got into a loyalist feud with another gang, which quickly ended when Murphy brutally killed a member of the rival gang. There is much evidence to suggest Murphy and his fellow murderers were more like serial killers than terrorists, and that the political situation in Ulster allowed them a respect within their community they never would have had otherwise. They occasionally used guns, but preferred knives and cleavers, and rather than carry out crimes that were carefully planned, the gang usually went out hunting on a whim, usually at night after spending all evening drinking heavily. On one occasion Murphy and Bates impulsively shot and killed two Protestants, believing incorrectly that they were Catholics.

In March 1976, Murphy shot and injured a Catholic woman. He was arrested and subsequently pleaded guilty to a firearms charge. He ordered the murders to continue, and over the next year, with William Moore acting as the new leader, several more Catholics were abducted, tortured and hacked to death.
In May 1977, a young man named Gerard McLaverty, was abducted by the Butchers and found alive, albeit badly wounded after he had been stabbed and hacked with an axe. He had been left for dead by the gang, but the freezing night air had slowed his bleeding and he was discovered and hospitalized. The police drove him around the haunts of the gang, whom they had long suspected, and he identified all of them. Moore, Bates and McAllister all confessed their guilt. They also said that Murphy had been their leader but they later retracted these claims.

The rest of the Shankill Butchers came to trial in February 1979. Eleven men were convicted of a total of 19 murders between them, and the 42 life sentences handed out were the most ever in a single trial in British criminal history. William Moore pleaded guilty to 11 counts of murder and Bates pleaded guilty to 10. They were sentenced to life with no chance of release, but were eventually released under the Good Friday Agreement of 1998). In his book The Shankill Butchers, Martin Dillon said that his own investigations suggest the gang were responsible for a total of 30 murders.

etc etc.....!

marco murphy

Phlann wrote: »

I see.

I should have noticed your username before replying.

Is that a problem?

stovelid

Poblachtach wrote: »

I don't know at all, and never will I'm sure. I don't know for certain if it was IRA members, but I reckon it was, with the weapons that were used and that.

Sure, nobody knows if it was approved at council level, and I admit that a cell structure does give rise to these things....but given that the IRA reacted with such alacrity to issues such as informing or 'collaboration', allowing sectarian spectaculars in their name (and with their weapons - which I assumed must have come from a dump/quartermaster) to go unpunished is at best a tacit approval.

Even republicans must concede that the 'unapproved' option is always trotted out for operations with a toxic publicity effect, while the relatively 'popular' ones like your Warrenpoint or Brighton are readily admitted to.

stovelid

Poblachtach wrote: »

Is that a problem?

If I had a user name like Billy Windsor McViolence, you must admit you'd look at any of my posts in this thread differently...

marco murphy

stovelid wrote: »

Sure, nobody knows if it was approved at council level, and I admit that a cell structure does give rise to these things....but given that the IRA reacted with such alacrity to issues such as informing or 'collaboration', allowing sectarian spectaculars in their name (and with their weapons - which I assumed must have come from a dump/quartermaster) to go unpunished is at best a tacit approval.

Even republicans must concede that the 'unapproved' option is always trotted out for operations with a toxic publicity effect, while the relatively 'popular' ones like your Warrenpoint or Brighton are readily admitted to.

I understand.

stovelid wrote: »

If I had a user name like Billy Windsor McViolence, you must admit you'd look at any of my posts in this thread differently...

Suppose I would.

Phlann

Nothing personal, man

It's just that, in my experience, as far as republicans are concerned every informant is 'unreliable' or 'discredited', every former Sinn Fein member who criticises the inner workings of the party is a 'malcontent with an agenda'... and so on.

There's just no valid criticism of the Republican movement as far as some people are concerned.

I'm not saying you're one of those people but I've heard that stuff so often it's made me a little cynical!

marco murphy

Phlann wrote: »

Nothing personal, man

It's just that, in my experience, as far as republicans are concerned every informant is 'unreliable' or 'discredited', every former Sinn Fein member who criticises the inner workings of the party is a 'malcontent with an agenda'... and so on.

Can you give me an example? I'm not afraid to criticise the Republican Movement, but I don't look to criticise for the craic either.

There's just no valid criticism of the Republican movement as far as some people are concerned.

I'm not saying you're one of those people but I've heard that stuff so often it's made me a little cynical!

I know. But you'll know there has been a lot of division and splits throughout the history. Republicans are generally not sheep.

Sherifu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQJrovKgrTw

Latchy

Apart from the usual suspects google and wikiepedia ,i am sure their is a website out there with the details of every atrocity commited during the troubles ,no doubt put together by good people with political and historical intrests in that period of irelands history .Op's particular incident will no doubt be in there .

Wertz

^

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/chron.htm