UK Freeview box able to recieve RTE in ROI ?

HarryD

Hi,

Can I buy a freeview box from the UK and pickup RTE DTT ?
I see both systems use DVB-T, but perhaps the freeview boxes
are blocked from picking up 'foreign' DVB-T Transmissions ?

Thanks for any info,

HD.

icdg

The short answer is yes, for the moment (until the end of the month anyway), and if you live in Dublin or Louth.

For the long answer, you're going to have to go to the Terrestrial forum where this thread is being moved...

barnicles

Or cork or limerick very soon

scath

I would advise against buying a Freeview box Harry D right now, because for the next two years UK Freeview will continue using an older video processing standard than we are going to use. We're at the point now of standards migration, in the UK from legacy to latest versions, the old incompatible with the new, but the new compatible with the old. At the moment Irish is going for the in between option to get out of the starting blocks. But the operator here may get sensible and delay a few months and go with new 2010 UK standards.

From 2010 Freeview are going for the latest technologies ahead of us so you could then buy a Freeview box compatible with our system but now, they're using older than us and we're in between these two at the moment. The new system gets them out of bandwidth limitations currently a problem for freeview ie channel number maximum space reached.

If you can't wait to see the 5 likely channels then get the cheapest MPEG4 box you can. Check http://www.freesat.ie and tell them Scath referred you. But understand that if RTE changes tack with the pay operator to T2 that at some stage you'll need to buy the newer standard Freeview box that will we'll see from 2010.I'd say hold off if you can. That's probably what I'll do. Or buy yourself a usb DVB-T stick for use with your laptop such as Pinnancle e20 and watch on your laptop and wait the 2 years for the 1 for the TV set so that you get it right for that if you're going to buy covering a few TV sets in your house.

The video processing of Freview called MPEG2. At the end of the month MPEG2 transmission will be ceased here that was being used with the official Dublin Louth DCENR trial (gov dept of comms) and on August 4th MPEG4 will be the tested by RTE exclusively because it uses less radiowave bandwidth than MPEG2 does. Meaning with MPEG4 can offer more channels for the same amount of bandwidth than MPEG2. So your freeview box would be useless.

That's my understanding of the whys. See: http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/DTT+Trial/ and http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/Frequent+Questions/ which confirms what I'm saying.

Changes will be afoot in 2 years time with Freeview with MPEG4 video processing and also the transmission network system in the UK will begin changing from DVB-T to DVB-T2, T2 a system that has more capacity for the same spectrum again like MPEG4 for the bandwidth hungry high definition channels of BBC, ITV & either C4 or Five.

Whether we'll go with T2 or not is the question we here are wondering in some of the topics on the board. Probably not as it would delay official launch here. So I would say, if you can, hold off until next year if you can.

Then buy the 2010 newer standard Freeview box which will be future proof even if we don't go for T2 just now. I see the clever technologically aware guy actually, not buying the T boxes here but instead getting the newer Freeview box then. T2 boxes will be able to pick up the T1 signal and the market forces of the UK will drive down cost for Irish customers

If you want to, buy a combination box that has satellite and terrestrial and MPEG4 and you can switch between both. Why would you do that? Because they're talking about adopting the cable fee of charging for these because we don't pay the BBC a license fee so we're a market for royalties to them just like cable. The accidental overspill will be switched off in Welsh switchoff of analogue aerial/terrestrial next year and in 2012 in NI. That will drive customers to a combo option. Also be aware that RTÉ are going up on the satellite (without non Irish programmes) next year.

The BBC can't technically stop satellite overspill or charge Irish customers for Freesat since we're in the EU unlike with aerial/terrestrial. So only satellite can give you free Uk channels unless the DTT operation here cop on and subsidise these UK channels into their business strategy to keep people from buying satellite boxes and dishes or combo boxes.The problem with terrestrial is number of channels versus satellite. Price may be determining but a combo box is probably the best non subscription option.

So if you an wait for 18 months, then get yourself a combo freeview+skyT2-S2 box. That way you'll be future proofed as you can expect RTE to go with T2 at some stage in the next few years. Experts in other topics on the issue are saying that for a few years, no significant innovations to these technologies can be expected. So that'll be a steady buy.

The combo box will allow you to avoid subscription if you want to via satellite without needing two boxes if you went for satellite as likelihood is aerial TV will charge for Uk channels while UK satellite will not. If you don't want satellite than I would say wait til the January of 2010 and get a freeview box then to future proof yourself. Just buy either the one MPEG4 box or usb stick aware now if you want that for other TVs the 2010 freeview boxes will be future proof but now these aren't available as the standard has just been finalised and is being verified now with the BBC testing it.

HarryD wrote: »

Hi,

Can I buy a freeview box from the UK and pickup RTE DTT ?
I see both systems use DVB-T, but perhaps the freeview boxes
are blocked from picking up 'foreign' DVB-T Transmissions ?

Thanks for any info,

HD.

HarryD

Thanks for the helpful replies guys and all the info..
I was on the lookout for an LCD TV with built in DVB-T receiver,
but I guess that's no use if all is finishing in a few weeks :S

Sponge Bob

Nobody buy ANYTHING AT ALL for 2 weeks

In the 1st week of August RTE starts to broadcast unencrypted mpeg4 from 3 rock . Many people with Digital TVs could well be left with no service as and from that date because they have completely incompatible UK gear.

I expect the mass education process to start when the irate punters who bought Freeview gear realise that it will not work here, ever .

I have even emailed Joe Duffy informing him of the sad truth .

About 100,000 Irish households who cannot get digital spillover from the UK now have a useless or semi useless brick, in effect . These TVs and DVRs will continue to pick up analogue in most cases but not DTT .

scath

Right on Sponge Bob. And not alone us advising not. One of the posters was advised by RTÉ apparently not to buy a terrestrial box right now under any circumstances. Might this be because they have decided to go with a T2 box? If this is so, that's very forward looking advice. Also an article in silicon republic makes the same point which DVB.org/Ireland has picked up on. I emailed it to the guy that updates it because I think its something that the industry needs to pick up on. There's no excuse for that given the CEDA advisory note. I guess this is where the Monday decision and need for the winner to get the message out as one of their first acts. http://www.dvb.org/about_dvb/dvb_worldwide/ireland/

Too right SpongeBob. I reckon that'll make a phone-in programme all about DTT or as I advise calling it DAT (Digital Aerial TV) to avoid confusing the public with notions of ET.

Zaphod

scath wrote: »

One of the posters was advised by RTÉ apparently not to buy a terrestrial box right now under any circumstances. Might this be because they have decided to go with a T2 box?

What is this fixation with DVB-T2? Nobody, nowhere has suggested they will use DVB-T2. All of the BCI documents, all of the submisions to the BCI have been based on MPEG4 over DVB-T. There are no DVB-T2 boxes available and probably won't be widely available until 2011/2012.

They will have enough on their plates trying to source a sufficient supply of DVB-T MPEG4 boxes.

maxg

I also don't understand this dvb-t2 hype.
UK freeview is planing to convert 1 mux to dvb-t2 for hd channels begining at the end of 2009 for regions which will get DSO than.
Maybe there are a limited number of dvb-t2 boxes available at the end of 2009 maybe not.
The announced rollout for the irish dtt in Q3 2009 is simply too early for any new methods.

watty

Zaphod wrote: »

What is this fixation with DVB-T2? Nobody, nowhere has suggested they will use DVB-T2. All of the BCI documents, all of the submisions to the BCI have been based on MPEG4 over DVB-T. There are no DVB-T2 boxes available and probably won't be widely available until 2011/2012.

They will have enough on their plates trying to source a sufficient supply of DVB-T MPEG4 boxes.

Agreed.

However it's unfortunate that the T2 spec gets finalised and a timetable for deployment is announced "next door" just as we are launching.

Especially as finally, it's likely to be the last digital development for a long time.


But having delayed and procrastinated for nearly 8 years, we can't hold off another two years. It's not politically or commercially feasible. It's not as a dramatic improvement as changing from MPEG2 to MPEG4 which is proven in real world and has set boxes today.

I don't think T2 will happen here till Analogue Switch off. Then a new PayTV /New MUxes can be added and that operator supply a subsidised T2 box (which will work with existing channels).

Unless Comreg go absolutely mad selling of TV spectrum for WiMax/LTE at 100Mbps, there should be enough for double the number of Muxes at least using SFN possibly and 60MHz to 120MHz for high capacity real Mobile Broadband (not the fake 3G/HSDPA stuff).

Sponge Bob

watty wrote: »

However it's unfortunate that the T2 spec gets finalised and a timetable for deployment is announced "next door" just as we are launching.

But its a distraction Watty , we generally agree on that . T2 is the future over teh horizon not the near future.

Most countries have not switched off yet . T2 can be the spec for the spare muxes that ONLY become available after final analogue switch off which in our case it looks like the 2015 last chance date not the 2012 best practice date . In many countries its 2011 or 2012 .

Can we tear strips off each other on the subject in 2010 or 2011 please

Even the UK will only have T2 live in the Northwest ( Manchester - Liverpool region ) in early-mid 2010 with most dedicated T2 spectrum coming available at the last minute in the second half of 2011 and in early 2012 in heavily populated regions like yorkshire and london and the south east .

Nor has any other country decided to deploy T2 at this time.

Furthermore the T2 spectrum is actually for Sky and may have the wrong encryption for us.

All good reasons not to hang around waiting. For the 4th commercial mux in 2012 to 2015 ( depending) by all means lets look into it in 2010 .

reslfj

Zaphod wrote: »

What is this fixation with DVB-T2? Nobody, nowhere has suggested they will use DVB-T2.

Sponge Bob wrote:

Even the UK will only have T2 live in the Northwest ( Manchester - Liverpool region ) in early-mid 2010 with most dedicated T2 spectrum coming available at the last minute in the second half of 2011 and in early 2012 in heavily populated regions like yorkshire and london and the south east .

Nor has any other country decided to deploy T2 at this time.

There is a lot more going on than meets the eye.

The UK will from DSO Granada in November 2009 change MUX-B into the DVB-T2 PSB-3 HD multiplex. All areas with DSO between now and Granada will change shortly after Granada. These areas includes Border, Wales, Devon and Cornwall.

But even more important is the Ofcom statement, that Ofcom is actively looking for free UHF channels in areas with a late DSO date, to start PSB-3 with DVB-T2 and HD before DSO.
Ofcom mentions that they have found a channel for 3.7 million households in London from 2010.

They may find a channel in NI for 2010 , too?

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/terrestrial/a99958/london-could-get-terrestrial-hd-in-2010.html ( or www.Ofcom.org.uk )

Zaphod wrote:

There are no DVB-T2 boxes available and probably won't be widely available until 2011/2012.

Marketing gossip! :mad:

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/digitaltv/a109623/industry-more-upbeat-on-dtt-hd-timescale.html

Sponge Bob wrote: »

But its a distraction Watty , we generally agree on that . T2 is the future over the horizon not the near future.

15 month 10 days to November 2009. Not the distant future, is it?

Sponge Bob wrote:

Furthermore the T2 spectrum is actually for Sky and may have the wrong encryption for us.

Spectrum has no encryption and Sky is not involved with DVB-T2 ( yet )

Lars

Myxomatosis

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I have even emailed Joe Duffy informing him of the sad truth .

About 100,000 Irish households who cannot get digital spillover from the UK now have a useless or semi useless brick, in effect . These TVs and DVRs will continue to pick up analogue in most cases but not DTT .

Whats there to complain to Joe Duffy about? There was never an official MPEG2 service here so people who bought Freeview boxes or TVs with MPEG2 Tuner have nothing to feel aggrieved about when MPEG4 begins.

They're TVs will still be as functional after the official launch as they were before it.

Sponge Bob

Myxomatosis wrote: »

They're TVs will still be as functional after the official launch as they were before it.

not quite, RTE is in the clear in Dublin on mpeg2 , until next week

and then !

Zaphod

scath wrote: »

One of the posters was advised by RTÉ apparently not to buy a terrestrial box right now under any circumstances. Might this be because they have decided to go with a T2 box? If this is so, that's very forward looking advice.

Zaphod wrote: »

Nobody, nowhere [in Ireland] has suggested they [RTÉ/RTÉNL/Boxer] will use DVB-T2.

reslfj wrote: »

There is a lot more going on than meets the eye.

Not in Ireland. The UK and Ofcom can do what they like, DTT in Ireland will be MPEG4 DVB-T. You can keep banging on about DVB-T2 until the cows come home, and it still won't change that fact.

scath

I think given that Boxer have won, with a January 2009 launch date I think that you're correct. Chances are that we'll have to wait. Anyways, T2 will start coming into Digital TV sets thanks to the UK. It'll be a case of they can upgrade the network when they want. Digital TVs will come down in price too and laptops will come with inbuilt DTT probably by then.

People will get tired of 2 remotes for sound and buy these new TVs. For the rest, an exchange will probably be offered from 2013 on or whenever RTÉ NL upgrade the network to T2 and H2. I still expect that infill will use T2 with T2 boxes for those areas to save on later upgrading. I expect T2 will be in Dublin by 2014 extending outwards from then. I think yes, RTÉ NL may go with what they have, wait until more deployments and reduction in prices, get some return between now and 2014 on investment and then upgrade equipment.

watty

T2 may never happen at all. Once Analogue switch off occurs there is more space.

Myxomatosis

Interesting how people are getting so worked up about DVB-T2.

from dvb.org

and it's clear from the experiences in Australia (DVB-T, MPEG-2 video coding) and France (DVB-T, MPEG-4 video coding) that terrestrial HDTV services are perfectly viable without using DVB-T2.

It also says that countries rolling out DVB-T services in the next 2-3 years should consider T2. i.e. countries still in the planning stages.

scath

The reason why I'd like to see T2 is that I want to see more channels. This is the main benefit for T2, more capacity. It also uses spectrum more efficiently. After all its about good use of spectrum. For instance, why be stuck with 2 UK News channels on DTT. I want international options. Have I to go satellite for them then? It appears so. That's why. What's the story if you don't want to sign up for pay DTT? I suppose some other boxes will be available. Probably. But all boxes have card slots. Will Why should I pay for something when I can pay a one-off for free. It'll drive some of us to satelitte. DTT should not be doing that. Pay DTT should be for premium content, like satellite not basic channels. Well okay it comes from the UK and UPC are charged. Well why not UPC drop these, combo with DTT and or if not let it come out the license fee rather than this way rather than they charge subs.

Myxomatosis

I'd rather quality over quantity. Who is supposed to offer this vast array of channels if T2 was used anyway?

That fact the MPEG4 is being used = less bit rate for same quality compared to MPEG2 = increased capacity compared to MPEG2/DVB-T. Assuming thats the way it works.

DVB-T2 is definitely not worth waiting around for if the only thing it offers is the possibility of more **** channels.

scath

AJE isn't a ****e channel, nor is C-Span. Granted they're minority tastes.

No, I'm not saying that we wait around for it.

I think we all accept that things need to get going. DVB-T it is. Time is money and ASO is more important than T2.

I just prefer to get less UK and more world channels. ie AJE/BBC World, C-Span, BBC Parliament etc. I know enough about the UK and am more interested in the Middle East and the USA and Europe. What about Euronews. Can't we have that rather than Sky News?

I mean why is it that UK get Freeview, and what do we get- have to pay for something on one platform that's free on another platform for a once-off cost. Believe you me, people don't know much about this yet, but when they begin to, many people are gonna balk at paying for UK channels they used to get free. And their local repair man and perhaps sky is gonna say hey, let me sell you a set-top box with satellite and terrestrial and you only pay one-off.

I think after ASO it should be looked at. Some may not want more channels. But some want more but without having to buy a dish or get in cable. That's the whole advantage with DTT, that its mobile. Is DTT always going to be the poor sister.

So we should get T2 as soon as is financially feasible for Boxer/RTÉ NL.

Anyhow, I need not worry, the logic of it will encourage it. We may have to wait. But I disagree that we should never get it. DTT shouldn't only be for those who only want a few channels, but for everyone.

I think depending on the subs, we may end up with subbed channels going FTA in return for higher Boxer fees to increase ad reach.

Some other channels well, okay Open & Distance Learning courses delivered via headset-keyboard and IPTV over DVB-T. This exists in Amigo TV 5900 by alcatel. This would be enormously helpful and would be cheaper on the person than high data costs associated with webcasting.

These would be what I call, good premium channels. Ie pay your course fees by subscription payments. ie DIT TV, TCD TV etc This is where T2 could assist. TV is enormously convenient for this purpose due to its over the air nature and via laptop and wireless net, usb DTT is a possiblity so that rather than travel to college you can make the course lecture on time wherever!

reslfj

scath wrote: »

The reason why I'd like to see T2 is that I want to see more channels. This is the main benefit for T2, more capacity.

Well the capacity gain is the benefit most easily explained, but a lot of the more technical changes to DVB-T2 are likely as important and maybe even more so.

Let me give a few examples.

PAPR reduction - WHAT ? -
Well it is a power 'saving' technology that will enable a transmitter of a given size (and price) to transmit with 1-2 dB higher power rating (ERP) e.g a 10 kW DVB-T transmitter may transmit DVB-T2 with 12.5-15 kW ERP.

More robust transmission.
If you instead of increasing the capacity - transmits with the same DVB-T power level and the same DVB-T 24 Mbps bit-rate, the robustness of a DVB-T2 signal will be like coming from a 2-3 times more powerful DVB-T transmitter.


Single Frequency Networks - SFN.
With DVB-T2 it will be possible to use country-wide SFN's. With DVB-T this will be extremely difficult and expensive. The benefits of SFN's in terms of cost, coverage and spectrum efficiency are very large.

The UK/Irish use of MFN is an analogue 'left-over'.


Lars

scath

Got ya lars, you're able to explain the technical business side that I wouldn't know much on.

Interesting. This means that from the business point of view, more coverage, cheaper to run the network, better use of spectrum. I think a certain amount of the spectrum should go on extra channels to make DTT platform more of a cable alternative for those liking lots of choice, to get more business channels, more international channels and adult channels.

So I think for the reasons you point out lars, I think they'll upgrade to T2 in the next decade simply to get a 2nd mux post ASO. 45 channels would be a decent number for Boxer DTT. Ie with RTÉ's 2, that'd be 65. Even scaled back to 60 would be grand as a total.

reslfj wrote: »

Well the capacity gain is the benefit most easily explained, but a lot of the more technical changes to DVB-T2 are likely as important and maybe even more so.

Let me give a few examples.

PAPR reduction - WHAT ? -
Well it is a power 'saving' technology that will enable a transmitter of a given size (and price) to transmit with 1-2 dB higher power rating (ERP) e.g a 10 kW DVB-T transmitter may transmit DVB-T2 with 12.5-15 kW ERP.

More robust transmission.
If you instead of increasing the capacity - transmits with the same DVB-T power level and the same DVB-T 24 Mbps bit-rate, the robustness of a DVB-T2 signal will be like coming from a 2-3 times more powerful DVB-T transmitter.


Single Frequency Networks - SFN.
With DVB-T2 it will be possible to use country-wide SFN's.The benefits of SFN's in terms of cost, coverage and spectrum efficiency are very large.

The UK/Irish use of MFN is an analogue 'left-over'.


Lars

watty

MPEG4 (the newer scheme) gives about 2.5times as many channels as MPEG2 with a good VBR (variable bit rate) Statistical Multiplexer / Encoder.

Basically untill analogue switch off, it's not possible to have SFN (Single Frequency Network) as the Digital Mux has to be different according to the Analogue channels. A SFN does not allow regional opt outs for adverts or news etc.. Several regional SFNs or carry the regional variations on all Mux, like Satellite? Depends on proportion of Regions. The Regional variation on ITV is to be much less. Even C4 has at least 4 Advert regions. One solution can be to use only ONE feed nationally for BBC1, ITV1 and swap ALL/Most of the hidden video feeds for interactive programming, for regional adverts/news/magasines.




A SFN would allow maybe twice or three times the number of channels, assuming a large chunk is sold off for Mobile communications. This is not enough if all channels migrate to HD as HD uses 5 times the data of a regular channel in MPEG4

So the problem is not channel space per se, as we all agree there is no need for 800 channels of junk. A well selected 32 to 64 channels would be a huge amount of choice. No +1s are needed and will likely die on Satellite too once PVRs* are universal. The problem is a future where ALL the channels are only in an HD version.

The T2 gives a 30% to 45% improvement. So adding MPEG2 --> MPEG4, MFN --> SFN, Extra space from Analogue Switch off (and some spectrum is going to be lost to other services) and T2 you can have about as many channels, but all in HD. Without T2, you would have LESS channels, or Only Satellite/Cable having HD versions of some channels. That is the driving force of T2..

So We have delayed 8 years already and fortuitously entered the MPEG4 era rather than MPEG2 (x2 capacity). We can't delay another 18months to allow T2 to be commercialised. We don't actually need it today.

The extra Muxes added after ASO (Analogue Switch Off) can be T2 and HD. By then there will be the HD content (hopefully) and T2 set boxes (likely). A new set box is not expensive compared with what price a real HD TV is /will be relatively. Many/Most of the HD sets sold up till last year are not really proper HD and will be at EOL before ASO!

So lets have no more posts about how we should use T2 today. We can't delay longer, it's not available in commercial volume today. Similarly we can't do SFN today either, that's for a post ASO world. There are issues on Boarder/NI interaction regarding the savings and planning of a SFN. See earlier comments on Regional Programming. A SFN requires identical content and modulation on all mux that are the same frequency so to the receiver it looks like multipath reception.

Any more espousing of T2 or SFN will be regarded as Trolling, post deleted and Poster Infracted.