CO2 based tax for pre 08 cars ?

josip

If owners of pre-2008 low emission cars were to only pay the emmissions-based motor tax amount for their class of car at the next renewal date rather than the engine capacity based-amount, does anyone think that the department would handle their payment sympathetically and still issue a tax disc?

The_Conductor

josip wrote: »

If owners of pre-2008 low emission cars were to only pay the emmissions-based motor tax amount for their class of car at the next renewal date rather than the engine capacity based-amount, does anyone think that the department would handle their payment sympathetically and still issue a tax disc?

Eh, no..... ?

cliffo27

josip wrote: »

If owners of pre-2008 low emission cars were to only pay the emmissions-based motor tax amount for their class of car at the next renewal date rather than the engine capacity based-amount, does anyone think that the department would handle their payment sympathetically and still issue a tax disc?

not a chance!

Esel

I laughed. Sympathetically?

josip

If sufficient numbers of pre-08 owners when renewing their motor tax were to only initally pay the emmissions-based motor tax amount for their class of car rather than the engine capacity based-amount, would it come to the notice of the minister? Would he then feel incentivised to apply the new system to years before 2008?

There are a lot of owners in this category, theoretically up to half of the people who bought new cars in any year before 2008 (eg. 90,000 in 2007 according to the CSO). You also have at least a 1 month window for "negotiations" with the department following expiry. AFAIR it's also freepost, so the negotiations are a cheaper and much more effective way to register any dissatisfaction than writing to the minister.

peasant

new thread created (split off from the big VRT sticky)

RobAMerc

josip wrote: »

If sufficient numbers of pre-08 owners when renewing their motor tax were to only initally pay the emmissions-based motor tax amount for their class of car rather than the engine capacity based-amount, would it come to the notice of the minister? Would he then feel incentivised to apply the new system to years before 2008?

There are a lot of owners in this category, theoretically up to half of the people who bought new cars in any year before 2008 (eg. 90,000 in 2007 according to the CSO). You also have at least a 1 month window for "negotiations" with the department following expiry. AFAIR it's also freepost, so the negotiations are a cheaper and much more effective way to register any dissatisfaction than writing to the minister.

I have a better plan...
If everybody decided to not pay road tax at all then they'd get rid of that too !!!

What about the people who's car tax would go up because of the emissions based system?

Nam_Man

RobAMerc wrote: »

I have a better plan...
If everybody decided to not pay road tax at all then they'd get rid of that too !!!

What about the people who's car tax would go up because of the emissions based system?

Well this is the next step to get us too cough up more dosh!!

Old tax band cars getting tested ... And paying for their CO2 band ...

Am fecked ... 2.0L Diesel

mcwhirter

Nam_Man wrote: »

Well this is the next step to get us too cough up more dosh!!

Old tax band cars getting tested ... And paying for their CO2 band ...

Am fecked ... 2.0L Diesel

Agree, if all cars were taxed on their C02 rating then imported cars with pre-injection engines(approx pre 1990) would all be paying 2000 euros/tax.
If they had really thought it through correctly they could have taxed cars on their C02 from the time manufacturers had to design their engines within a c02 limit. I'm not sure of the year this happened.
And the cars which didn't have this restriction, left to pay tax on engine size.
I don't reall think John Gormley is as GREEN as he portrays.

billbond4

I wrote to the Minister and asked if pre 08 cars could have an "opt-in" to be taxed on CO2 emissions and he said that the local councils would loose too much money.
So thats your answer

daveharnett

Slightly OT but here goes:
Is there a scenario where the owner of a low emissions 2006/2007 car would stand to gain by
1: Swapping their car with the owner of an identical NI registered car (importing a used car to the UK is free, right?).
2: Registering it in ireland (and paying VRT)
3: Making a saving over the lifetime of the car because of reduced tax.

Is this economically/legally possible? I know you can't get into the new tax system by re-registering a car allready registered here, but I think the above would work?

Cionád

daveharnett wrote: »

Slightly OT but here goes:
Is there a scenario where the owner of a low emissions 2006/2007 car would stand to gain by
1: Swapping their car with the owner of an identical NI registered car (importing a used car to the UK is free, right?).
2: Registering it in ireland (and paying VRT)
3: Making a saving over the lifetime of the car because of reduced tax.

Is this economically/legally possible? I know you can't get into the new tax system by re-registering a car allready registered here, but I think the above would work?

The motor tax system only applies to 2008 cars onwards, a 2007 import is still engine sized based for motor tax (but co2 based for VRT).

daveharnett

Cionád wrote: »

The motor tax system only applies to 2008 cars onwards, a 2007 import is still engine sized based for motor tax (but co2 based for VRT).

Well, that's a no then.
Ah, well.

L1011

My tax would be €125 lower if the new rates were backdated (I can prove my CO2 figures - the same car is still on sale!) and I know of a car where the difference would be €440 (Fiat Bravo 1.9 diesel). It would cost the state too much money, so its not going to happen. Annoyingly.

Cionád

daveharnett wrote: »

Well, that's a no then.
Ah, well.

Aye, I was considering the same maneuver when they first announced the new system, was bitterly disappointed when they changed it!

josip

MYOB wrote: »

It would cost the state too much money

It only costs the state if they allow people to choose on which basis they want to pay for their motor tax. It's revenue neutral if they apply the current 2008 basis to all cars bought in an earlier year. High emissions cars would pay more than currently, but their environmental impact has been subsidised by low emissions cars for a number of years already. It would only be reverting to a fair system of taxation.

MYOB wrote: »

so its not going to happen

If all pre-08 low emissions owners accept it meekly it won't happen. We'll be like lambs to the slaughter especially now that our cars have been devalued by the measure.

MYOB wrote: »

Annoyingly.

In my limited experience the most effective way of getting something changed is to be as annoying and irritating as legally possible to the person responsible for running the system.

For the record, I drive a Feb 05 Octavia 1.9 TDI whose CO2 emissions the minister's secretary has told me are not in the VRT database since they only started recording it in May 05. Strange then that my registration cert states the C02 emissions as 140 . So yes, my annual tax would go from €590 to €150 which is why I'll be as annoying as possible about this.

peasant

josip wrote: »

So yes, my annual tax would go from €590 to €150 which is why I'll be as annoying as possible about this.

You will equally annoyingly opposed by those who bought a car with the old tax factured into their budget and would see it go up if the change was introduced.

(me, for example ...and I have the stronger argument: €420 vs € 2000)

Im changing cars, had a 10yr old diesel paying nearly 600euros for the 2litre engine

gonna import a 7 yr old 2.2litre diesel car from the UK soon. Gonna pay less annual road tax now 430 euros.


the new changes are good bein co2 based but favour those with enough money to change cars

now im changin vehicles, my business is leaving the country, how many people are doing the same as me leavin cars on forecourts around the country ?

The_Conductor

blindjustice- you will still be paying annual road tax based on the engine size on your 2.2 litre 7 year old import (the VRT will however be based on the CO2 emissions rate).

I.e. you are now paying EUR590 annual roadtax at present- you will be paying EUR791 on the 2.2 litre one you are proposing to get.

The CO2 based annual roadtax is only for vehicles first registered in 2008.......

L1011

josip wrote: »

In my limited experience the most effective way of getting something changed is to be as annoying and irritating as legally possible to the person responsible for running the system.

Oh, I'm being annoying and irritating to Gormley (or more accurately, some poor private secretary...) about it as possible

Nonoperational

No chance josip. It would create a totally unfair system where petrol cars are treated unfailry by a law passed after the purchasing decision. It'll never happen and indeed it shouldn't.

colm_mcm

josip wrote: »

If owners of pre-2008 low emission cars were to only pay the emmissions-based motor tax amount for their class of car at the next renewal date rather than the engine capacity based-amount, does anyone think that the department would handle their payment sympathetically and still issue a tax disc?

Imagine the scenario down your local friendly motor tax office:

Assistant: That'll be €861 please.

Me: How does €290 grab you, thats what an 08 version of my car would cost

Assistant: Oh right, here's your disc, good thinking. I have complete control over how much I charge for a tax disc, I wish the whole process was computerised.

Me: Now to reduce my income tax....

L1011

gpf101 wrote: »

No chance josip. It would create a totally unfair system where petrol cars are treated unfailry by a law passed after the purchasing decision. It'll never happen and indeed it shouldn't.

I drive a Petrol, on which the tax would have reduced heavily if I had an 08 model (its still sold).

Did you mean to write "large petrol cars"?

mickdw

How long before we see a change in the bands to allow the costs to rise alittle. I cant help thinking that the government have got this alittle wrong because alot of the manufacturers seem to have very quickly offered cars with better co2 figures than when the system was released.

Audi seem to have improved greatly. BMW great for some time.

audi TT 170 bhp quatro tdi = €150 road tax and 16% VRT
All audi models improving I think

BMW 520d 150 euro tax also,
So its seems you can buy a car of any size from small to executive and still get into the second lowest band.
I can see the lower band soon being set at over €200

E92

One of the ironies of the CO2 based taxation policy is that some very large cars, like the 520d are in the same CO2 and hence road tax bracket as a 1.0 Yaris. Indeed a 320d pollutes the grand total of just 1 g/km more than the Yaris 1.0. Hell even something sporty like the Audi TT TDI is in the same VRT band, and that has 4 wheel drive:eek:!

If they're going to put up the road tax by a large amount then the arse will fall out of the supermini segment and nobody will buy them, not something I can see the Government being too keen on.

On the other hand the days of BMW 5 series being €150 to tax can't last forever, and I'd say those days will be gone by budget 2010 if not budget 2009.

smccarrick

smccarrick wrote: »

blindjustice- you will still be paying annual road tax based on the engine size on your 2.2 litre 7 year old import (the VRT will however be based on the CO2 emissions rate).

I.e. you are now paying EUR590 annual roadtax at present- you will be paying EUR791 on the 2.2 litre one you are proposing to get.

The CO2 based annual roadtax is only for vehicles first registered in 2008.......

yep there goes my idea!! Still thinkin of importing the car though, still cheaper might just stick to a 2.0 now though

The following is a statement from Minister Gormley regarding the new motor tax system. Please use our motor tax calculator above to calculate your motor tax.

"Minister Gormley stated that all new cars registered from 1 July 2008 will have their motor tax rate based on the CO2 emissions level. The new CO2 based system will not apply to the import of pre 2008 cars. New cars registered between 1 January 2008 and 30 June 2008 will initially have their motor tax charged on the basis of the existing engine size (c.c.) system. However, a low CO2 emitting new car registered between 1 January 2008 and 30 June 2008 will have its motor tax switched to the lower CO2 based motor tax rate on first renewal of motor tax post 1 July 2008, when the new CO2 based system commences. New cars which are registered in the first 6 months of 2008 whose tax would be more under the new CO2 based system will continue to pay motortax on the basis of engine size. "

Couldnt make it clearer that he is tilting taxes in favour of people with more money. Sounds fair doesnt it

josip

Deleted User wrote: »

yep there goes my idea!! Still thinkin of importing the car though, still cheaper might just stick to a 2.0 now though

Nothing for it blindjustice but to mobilise the diesel masses of Ireland. I'll target the <2.0l owners and you the >2.0l?

The minister's sec, Eddie K, doesn't rule out future changes to the motor tax system.

"It will take some time for the full effects of the changes to VRT and
motor tax to be known. In this respect the Government will continue to
monitor their effects and to make adjustments to them over the coming
years if necessary."

The current government has so little confidence I reckon it'd only take 100 submissions or thereabouts for them to change their position.

I already wrote to the minister more than a month ago!
more people need to write!!!

email even!!

minister@environ.ie

peasant

josip wrote: »

Nothing for it blindjustice but to mobilise the diesel masses of Ireland. I'll target the <2.0l owners and you the >2.0l?

The minister's sec, Eddie K, doesn't rule out future changes to the motor tax system.

"It will take some time for the full effects of the changes to VRT and
motor tax to be known. In this respect the Government will continue to
monitor their effects and to make adjustments to them over the coming
years if necessary."

The current government has so little confidence I reckon it'd only take 100 submissions or thereabouts for them to change their position.

That, I'm afraid, is probably wishful thinking on your part.

The governement have realised that they will have a lot less VRT and motor tax in their koffers at exactly the wrong time (the economic downturn that nobody saw coming, apparently :rolleyes:)

Your quote from Eddie K (whoever he is) is governement speak for " We made a balls of it ...we're loosing money ...help ...we need to claw it back again"

There will be NO further tax reductions in motoring for anyone ...I'd be willing to take bets on that.

Nonoperational

MYOB wrote: »

I drive a Petrol, on which the tax would have reduced heavily if I had an 08 model (its still sold).

Did you mean to write "large petrol cars"?

Am no I didn't. I drive a 1.6 which is costing me 490 a year tax. If it was co2 based it'd cost me 1000 euro a year. CO2 is down as 195...

ninty9er

gpf101 wrote: »

Am no I didn't. I drive a 1.6 which is costing me 490 a year tax. If it was co2 based it'd cost me 1000 euro a year. CO2 is down as 195...

€428, but anywho, Mine would be €600, but there isn't a CO2 rating on my VLC

L1011

gpf101 wrote: »

Am no I didn't. I drive a 1.6 which is costing me 490 a year tax. If it was co2 based it'd cost me 1000 euro a year. CO2 is down as 195...

"larger, higher CO2 petrol cars", then. You were still miles off when you blanket marked petrol cars as going up.

my problem with is that its a two tier taxation system which favours those with enough money to buy a new car!!!!
Why should I be paying more for a car that emits the same or less Co2 as someone who can afford to buy a brand new even higher emitting Co2 car and they pay less annual road tax?

josip

peasant wrote: »

The governement have realised that they will have a lot less VRT and motor tax in their koffers at exactly the wrong time (the economic downturn that nobody saw coming, apparently :rolleyes:)

There will be NO further tax reductions in motoring for anyone ...I'd be willing to take bets on that.

If the minister applies the same approach for pre-08 cars as he does for new cars it'll be at worst revenue neutral. As pointed out already, high CO2 owners won't like it. But these people will place an additional cost on the country in the form of Kyoto penalties so it would probably save the country money in the medium to long term

L1011

Deleted User wrote: »

my problem with is that its a two tier taxation system which favours those with enough money to buy a new car!!!!
Why should I be paying more for a car that emits the same or less Co2 as someone who can afford to buy a brand new even higher emitting Co2 car and they pay less annual road tax?

Precisely. I can afford a new car, I just don't see the *need* to - my car has done 41000 miles without any serious maintainence, is still a model thats sold right now in the same style, and probably has another 60000 miles on it. If I was replacing it I'd get the faster version of the same - which would STILL have less road tax. This system is basically punishing me for not inflicting massive damage on the environment by buying a new car (steel, plastics, etc + shipping it from Poland to here).

Nonoperational

MYOB wrote: »

"larger, higher CO2 petrol cars", then. You were still miles off when you blanket marked petrol cars as going up.

Even if its just one car goes up, for example mine going from 430 to 1000 euro its ridiculously unfair to peanilise people retrospectively. Its fair enough now as you have a clear choice when you go to buy your car. Buy a performance car with high CO2 and you get punished with higher tax. You can't have a system where the government say - well look you bought this car 3 years ago. Unlucky for you your 1.6 car has a high CO2 please pay 1000 euro a year tax, while the man with the Beemer 520D gets a tax cut for no other reason than being lucky.

The reason you're paying more road tax is because there was a new law passed after you got your car. The only wasy to implement the new law is to have a cut off point. You might not like it but there has to be a cut off point for its introduction. You knew the tax rate for your car before you bought it and you were happy to pay it.

L1011

gpf101 wrote: »

Even if its just one car goes up, for example mine going from 430 to 1000 euro its ridiculously unfair to peanilise people retrospectively. Its fair enough now as you have a clear choice when you go to buy your car. Buy a performance car with high CO2 and you get punished with higher tax. You can't have a system where the government say - well look you bought this car 3 years ago. Unlucky for you your 1.6 car has a high CO2 please pay 1000 euro a year tax, while the man with the Beemer 520D gets a tax cut for no other reason than being lucky.

The reason you're paying more road tax is because there was a new law passed after you got your car. The only wasy to implement the new law is to have a cut off point. You might not like it but there has to be a cut off point for its introduction. You knew the tax rate for your car before you bought it and you were happy to pay it.

Taxes can rise, and we're looking at massive Kyoto fines if we don't get CO2 emissions down. If a car is still sold in the same spec as exists on the road, the existing cars should be transferred to the new tax system. No matter what way you try to spin this, there are large amounts of people paying more tax on a car they already own than a new owner of the same vehicle would pay - and this is in no way fair.

And how are we going to encourage people out of older, low efficiency / high carbon vehicles if their tax rate stays the same? Erm, we're not, thats how.

Del2005

peasant wrote: »

That, I'm afraid, is probably wishful thinking on your part.

The governement have realised that they will have a lot less VRT and motor tax in their koffers at exactly the wrong time (the economic downturn that nobody saw coming, apparently :rolleyes:)

Your quote from Eddie K (whoever he is) is governement speak for " We made a balls of it ...we're loosing money ...help ...we need to claw it back again"

There will be NO further tax reductions in motoring for anyone ...I'd be willing to take bets on that.

And they will raise them all when they do the books and find out they lost a load of money

MYOB wrote: »

Taxes can rise, and we're looking at massive Kyoto fines if we don't get CO2 emissions down. If a car is still sold in the same spec as exists on the road, the existing cars should be transferred to the new tax system. No matter what way you try to spin this, there are large amounts of people paying more tax on a car they already own than a new owner of the same vehicle would pay - and this is in no way fair.

The CO2 emissons from ALL road transport is ~2% there are a lot of other places they could go to reduce our Kyoto fines. Why not ban cattle as they produce loads of methane and thats way worst the CO2, so kill a cow and you can drive want you want:D

And how are we going to encourage people out of older, low efficiency / high carbon vehicles if their tax rate stays the same? Erm, we're not, thats how.

Because it's all bull. The cleanest car is one already made and driven till death. Replacing a car that has passed it's NCT because it produces a tiny bit more CO2 when driven is worst for the enviroment becasue the new car consumes huge amounts of energy in construction and transport. All the goveremnt is doing is moving our CO2 to another part of the planet which isn't very good for the enviroment

L1011

Its no worse than replacing a car because suddenly its road tax is 4x* higher than a brand new one of the exact same kind would be.

*Fiat Bravo 1.6d, there may be other cars with higher differences.

Currently the state is rewarding those who lucked out on buying their polluting cars in the past and punishing those who already owned cleaner vehicles.

peasant

MYOB wrote: »

Currently the state is rewarding those who lucked out on buying their polluting cars in the past and punishing those who already owned cleaner vehicles.

Except for a handful of truly environementaly conscious people I would claim that nobody bought their pre 08 car with any regard whatsoever to CO2 emissions ...it simply wasn't a topic.

The governement is neither rewarding nor punishing anyone ...it simply changed the taxation system for newly registered cars

EDIT: and the reason why they did that has (at least that's my suspiscion) absolutely nothing to do with Kyoto or the environment ...but with the fact that the EU was about to come down on them like a ton of bricks over VRT. Now that VRT wears the multicoloured CO2 dreamcoat, it's alright again ...except that they got their calculations wrong and are loosing money hand over fist

(yes, I know ...I'm a cynical bastard)

Nonoperational

Its a fair point to discuss and I'd possibly be a bit annoyed if I had a low CO2 pre 08 car. But as peasant said, nobody gave a second thought about co2 until this year and the taxation reflects this. This new system will do well to last anyway as was discussed. People buying a 2.2L diesel paying the same tax as a 1L runabout is going to cost them a packet!

You'll have a hard job convincing me on the merits of backdating the taxation system MYOB!

peasant

peasant wrote: »

Except for a handful of truly environementaly conscious people I would claim that nobody bought their pre 08 car with any regard whatsoever to CO2 emissions ...it simply wasn't a topic.

The governement is neither rewarding nor punishing anyone ...it simply changed the taxation system for newly registered cars

EDIT: and the reason why they did that has (at least that's my suspiscion) absolutely nothing to do with Kyoto or the environment ...but with the fact that the EU was about to come down on them like a ton of bricks over VRT. Now that VRT wears the multicoloured CO2 dreamcoat, it's alright again ...except that they got their calculations wrong and are loosing money hand over fist

(yes, I know ...I'm a cynical bastard)

yep and now we have a two tier tax system. I really dont see why i have to pay more when some other guy with more emissions pays less.
I also dont think older petrols should have taxes raised were they to bring this into effect (back date it) as the older cars mean less co2 emissions from construction.

Nonoperational

Besides CO2, are Diesels better for the enviroment than petrols? I always saw them as dirty smokey things although I'm sure the new ones with DPFs and the like are nothing like the stereotype in my head!

L1011

gpf101 wrote: »

Besides CO2, are Diesels better for the enviroment than petrols? I always saw them as dirty smokey things although I'm sure the new ones with DPFs and the like are nothing like the stereotype in my head!

Probably not. Be prepared for a multi-page lecture on heavy particulates, NOx, direct injection vs. indirect injection petrol engines, etc, etc incoming rapidly from the usual suspects though

E92

gpf101 wrote: »

Besides CO2, are Diesels better for the enviroment than petrols? I always saw them as dirty smokey things although I'm sure the new ones with DPFs and the like are nothing like the stereotype in my head!

The stereotype is correct in so far as while diesels are infinitely cleaner than those even 10 years ago, petrol engines have also come on leaps and bounds too.

Thus diesel is still nowhere near as clean burning as petrol.

A Merc S320 CDI for example pollutes 11.6 times more NOx than an Audi A8 2.8, and these are cars that only came out within the last 3 years. They both fulfil the current Euro 4 emissions standards.

By the way, the Merc does have a DPF, like most diesels do(thanks be to God), and the A8 is a direct injection petrol, which in spite of being twice as good as an indirect injection petrol FIAT 500 1.2 for NOx is somehow worse for us than an old fashioned petrol.

Anyway, there have been LOADS of debates about this whole thing, so that's me finished debating the issue on this thread.

The_Conductor

MYOB wrote: »

Precisely. I can afford a new car, I just don't see the *need* to - my car has done 41000 miles without any serious maintainence, is still a model thats sold right now in the same style, and probably has another 60000 miles on it. If I was replacing it I'd get the faster version of the same - which would STILL have less road tax. This system is basically punishing me for not inflicting massive damage on the environment by buying a new car (steel, plastics, etc + shipping it from Poland to here).

Mini Cooper 1.6 Turbo Diesel with 118grms CO2/km @ EUR100 roadtax per annum. It certainly incentivised BMW to get their act together. All I have to do now is try to figure out where to get the cash from. The wife has fallen in love with it........

You are right of course- the system is punishing those who hold onto their older cars.

daveharnett

smccarrick wrote: »

You are right of course- the system is punishing those who hold onto their older cars.

That's one way of looking at it. Owners of >08 low co2 cars are worse off in comparison. Another way of looking at is is from a utilitarian point of view: People who already have cars should keep them until they die, and the new tax system will influence people who are considering buying new cars. It's not about fairness, it's about results.

Mind you, while we're at it, we should reward people who export used high co2 cars and swap them for low co2 cars as well. A reduction is a reduction, right?

Wrong. Screw co2, it's all about collecting the VRT.

josip

gpf101 wrote: »

Unlucky for you your 1.6 car has a high CO2 please pay 1000 euro a year tax, while the man with the Beemer 520D gets a tax cut for no other reason than being lucky.

There are 2 other reasons why pre-08 low CO2 owners would get a tax cut apart from being lucky.

1. They checked the emissions before they purchased and bought on that altruistic basis.

2. They saw that the UK had introduced emissions based taxation in 2001 and bought low-CO2 in anticipation of our government following the UK's lead as they usually do.

From some of the posts one could get the impression that all diesel owners in Ireland drive a BMW 520d and all petrol owners drive a 1.6 family car. It would be fairer to compare petrol and diesel options for the same brand of car. When we bought in 2005 we got a 1.9TDi Octavia instead of a 1.6 Octavia. It was €2K more expensive to buy and annual tax was more expensive. We do 20,000 km/yr so we were never going to recoup our additional expense. We, like many others, bought it coz it has lower CO2.