Crime and Punishment

JimiTime

Just discussing this with a friend last night. As a christian, would you say the death penalty is a) Incompatible with Christianity b) Compatible with christianity.

I realise that there will be some people who don't agree with it based on their owm views etc and vice versa, but I'm looking to reason within a christian context. What think yee? Oviously, I'd like your reasoning too:)

wolfsbane

No

JimiTime wrote: »

Just discussing this with a friend last night. As a christian, would you say the death penalty is a) Incompatible with Christianity b) Compatible with christianity.

I realise that there will be some people who don't agree with it based on their owm views etc and vice versa, but I'm looking to reason within a christian context. What think yee? Oviously, I'd like your reasoning too:)

Yes. The capital punishment mandate was given to all mankind via Noah. It is not merely a part of the Mosaic Law, some of which has been fulfilled and abolished.

Romans 13 gives a NT reiteration of the propriety of execution, under just cause of course.

Dave!

Of course it's compatible with Christianity! Check out Leviticus for a list of sins which require the death penalty!

I'll get you started... adultery, beastiality, homosexuality, cursing your mother or father.....

PDN

No

Dave! wrote: »

Of course it's compatible with Christianity! Check out Leviticus for a list of sins which require the death penalty!

I'll get you started... adultery, beastiality, homosexuality, cursing your mother or father.....

Christianity began several centuries after Leviticus, and a good bit of Leviticus was fulfilled before the foundation of the Christian Church, so whatever is in Leviticus does not dictate what is compatible with Christianity.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

so whatever is in Leviticus does not dictate what is compatible with Christianity.

Except, of course, when it does. See Leviticus 19, for example.

PDN

No

robindch wrote: »

Except, of course, when it does. See Leviticus 19, for example.

So you believe that Leviticus Chapter 19 dictates what is compatible with Christianity?

I guess that means your experience with Christians must have been with a group who observed Saturday as a day of rest, offered sacrifices to God which must be eaten within 2 days, were careful not to harvest the edges of their fields, refused to wear clothing made of mixed fibres, made anyone found sleeping with his slave girl to sacrifice a ram, refrained from eating rare or medium rare steaks and studiously avoided clipping the edges of their beards.

Hmm, no wonder you rejected Christianity and became an atheist.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

I guess that means your experience with Christians must have been with a group who observed Saturday as a day of rest, offered sacrifices to God which must be eaten within 2 days, were careful not to harvest the edges of their fields, refused to wear clothing made of mixed fibres, made anyone found sleeping with his slave girl to sacrifice a ram, refrained from eating rare or medium rare steaks and studiously avoided clipping the edges of their beards.

Nope, not those bits -- interesting and all as they are -- which I don't ever recall making it into any christian sermon I was able to stay awake for.

Instead, I was referring to the bits like the one about honoring your father and mother, observing the religion's holy day, not bearing false witness, not using the lord's name in vain, not stealing and so on.

All of those bits appear in what's referred to as the "Ten Commandments" which shows up elsewhere in the OT. Google should be help you out if you're not familiar with them.

PDN

No

robindch wrote: »

Nope, not those bits -- interesting and all as they are -- which I don't ever recall making it into any christian sermon I was able to stay awake for.

Instead, I was referring to the bits like the one about honoring your father and mother, observing the religion's holy day, not bearing false witness, not using the lord's name in vain, not stealing and so on.

All of those bits appear in what's referred to as the "Ten Commandments" which shows up elsewhere in the OT. Google should be help you out if you're not familiar with them.

The fact that moral teaching on honouring your father etc occurs in Leviticus as well as all the ceremonial stuff shows that Christianity dictates how we read Leviticus - not that Leviticus dictates what is compatible with Christianity.

A book like Leviticus contains a ceremonial law code (no longer applies), prescribed punishments for breaking the law (no longer applies), instructions for how the Israelites were to live when they first entered the Promised Land (no longer applies), and an insight into God's holiness and moral standards (applicable and relevant today).

BTW, I don't see the Ten Comandments as being any holier than any other part of the Old Testament and certainly not a law binding on Christianity today. (Although nine of them are reinforced by the New Testament and so still refer to moral requirements). I suspect some other Christian posters will now doubt my orthodoxy.

Note: A new thread has been opened on the Old Testament & Christianity. Posts on that topic should be posted over there & we'll keep this thread for the discussion of the OP - capital punishment.

PDN

No

Returning to the OP - I don't see the issue of capital punishment as entirely black and white.

In certain cases I can see it as necessary. For example, pioneer societies such as the Hebrews entering the Promised Land lacked the facilities or stability to impose any other form of sufficiently severe justice (life imprisonment in a tent is probably not going to mean life). I could see the same applying in the Wild West (America, not Mayo), in wartime, or in a country where frequent coups mean a serial murderer is likely to get released every time the government changes.

However, in a stable well-ordered society I think life imprisonment is better than capital punishment primarily because we all know that sometimes the courts get it wrong and convict an innocent person.

However, the above are more my personal views rather than based on any specific biblical texts or on Christian belief per se.

JimiTime

No

PDN wrote: »

Returning to the OP - I don't see the issue of capital punishment as entirely black and white.

In certain cases I can see it as necessary. For example, pioneer societies such as the Hebrews entering the Promised Land lacked the facilities or stability to impose any other form of sufficiently severe justice (life imprisonment in a tent is probably not going to mean life). I could see the same applying in the Wild West (America, not Mayo), in wartime, or in a country where frequent coups mean a serial murderer is likely to get released every time the government changes.

However, in a stable well-ordered society I think life imprisonment is better than capital punishment primarily because we all know that sometimes the courts get it wrong and convict an innocent person.

However, the above are more my personal views rather than based on any specific biblical texts or on Christian belief per se.

I pretty much agree with these sentiments. I don't think its incompatible. Though I probably wouldn't share your views on prison, again though that would be a personal thing.

I'd be curious to know what the reasoning is behind those who voted that it was incompatible though?

philologos

It may have been the punishment system during the Old Testament canon, however I don't believe it is compatible with the revelation as of the New Covenant. A system of rehabilitation and detainment and a chance for those to take another shot at life after being imprisoned fits into the mercy that we should have for others. If we have mercy on others, so will God have mercy on us, it is also important to know that Jesus even said to Peter that we should forgive others if they are truly repentant as many times as is neccessary. I don't believe that the death penalty has a role in this system or should be encouraged by Christians.

wolfsbane

No

Jakkass wrote: »

It may have been the punishment system during the Old Testament canon, however I don't believe it is compatible with the revelation as of the New Covenant. A system of rehabilitation and detainment and a chance for those to take another shot at life after being imprisoned fits into the mercy that we should have for others. If we have mercy on others, so will God have mercy on us, it is also important to know that Jesus even said to Peter that we should forgive others if they are truly repentant as many times as is neccessary. I don't believe that the death penalty has a role in this system or should be encouraged by Christians.

The crucial point is the distinction between the State and the Christian (individual and as a church). To the former God has commited the use of the sword (Romans 13, for example). To us He has commited turning the other cheek, etc.

If forgiveness mandates the State as it does us, then there is no place for imprisonment either. The most the criminal could face would be 'shunning'. That is not what the sword is all about.

I'm not saying CP is best in every capital case, for there are weaknesses in the judical system that may indicate it best to go for life imprisonment. But as a general principle, CP is the most fitting response to the violation of human life. Humans are so precious that life ought to go for life, lest we devalue man.

CP also does not rule out space to repent. Even a brief time can be enough for a guilty man to prepare himself to meet his God.

philologos

wolfsbane wrote: »

I'm not saying CP is best in every capital case, for there are weaknesses in the judical system that may indicate it best to go for life imprisonment. But as a general principle, CP is the most fitting response to the violation of human life. Humans are so precious that life ought to go for life, lest we devalue man.

The eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth a life for a life is not what Jesus has called us for in enforcing legal decisions. He makes it clear in the Sermon of the Mount. This was expanded upon by Jesus, claiming that we should put mercy in the place of revenge. The fitting penalty would be a prison sentence (which Jesus discusses for this purpose) so one could seriously reflect upon the gravity of what they have done, improve themselves through prison education and prison ministry to be a better person upon release. That's what Christianity means to me in the judicial system, the chance to say, we turned people around and made them better people than they were at the beginning. The Sermon of the Mount is so important as it is almost the manifesto of Christian living as intended by the teacher who taught it. I believe the context of Paul's passage is to be subservient to authorities and regimes that Christians come under, not to encourage people to carry out capital punishments.

JimiTime

No

Jakkass wrote: »

The eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth a life for a life is not what Jesus has called us for in enforcing legal decisions. He makes it clear in the Sermon of the Mount. This was expanded upon by Jesus, claiming that we should put mercy in the place of revenge.

Agreed. However, God forgave, but still punished wrongdoing. There is a grey area. We must forgive our agressors, but at the same time, we can't allow criminals free reign. I've seen some argue, that prison is worse than death. People who through vengeance, actually don't want to see certain criminals die, but rather suffer for life in prison.

The fitting penalty would be a prison sentence (which Jesus discusses for this purpose) so one could seriously reflect upon the gravity of what they have done, improve themselves through prison education and prison ministry to be a better person upon release.

This assumes that there is a prison ministry etc. It also assumes that the guilty party are 'rehabilitated'. What about the ones who don't find Christ, or are not rehabilitated?

That's what Christianity means to me in the judicial system, the chance to say, we turned people around and made them better people than they were at the beginning.

Is this the reality?

The Sermon of the Mount is so important as it is almost the manifesto of Christian living as intended by the teacher who taught it.

Couldn't agree more. Probably my favourite section of the 4 gospel accounts.

I believe the context of Paul's passage is to be subservient to authorities and regimes that Christians come under, not to encourage people to carry out capital punishments.

Also agreed, but thats veering off a bit. I'm just asking if CP is compatible with Christianity, not if we should encourage it.

wolfsbane

No

Jakkass wrote: »

The eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth a life for a life is not what Jesus has called us for in enforcing legal decisions. He makes it clear in the Sermon of the Mount. This was expanded upon by Jesus, claiming that we should put mercy in the place of revenge. The fitting penalty would be a prison sentence (which Jesus discusses for this purpose) so one could seriously reflect upon the gravity of what they have done, improve themselves through prison education and prison ministry to be a better person upon release. That's what Christianity means to me in the judicial system, the chance to say, we turned people around and made them better people than they were at the beginning. The Sermon of the Mount is so important as it is almost the manifesto of Christian living as intended by the teacher who taught it. I believe the context of Paul's passage is to be subservient to authorities and regimes that Christians come under, not to encourage people to carry out capital punishments.

Jesus' comments relate to us as individuals, not to the State. We are not permitted to use the sword to punish evildoers, but the State is. We are to turn the other cheek, the State is not.

That's where the confusion comes in - applying to the State what God means for the individual, and vv.
Romans 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

I'm all for rehabilitation of non-capital criminals, and even capital ones should have a short time to prepare themselves to meet God.