[Article] - O'Leary dismisses future for regional airports and most European airlines

Bards

This from the mouth of Ryanair who makes it a point of flying into other regional airports in Europe thus avoiding higher landing charges. Is he now advocating that all regional airports througout Europe be closed?? In The same week that he critisizes the DAA for having a monopoly in Dublin, what does he think will happen if the other airports are forced to close?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0717/1216073195101.html

O'Leary dismisses future for regional airports and most European airlines

There is no future for Donegal, Sligo, Galway and Waterford airports, while Knock is "pretty flakey", according to Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary, who has called on the Government to stop subsidising them.

Mr O'Leary also told the Oireachtas transport committee that in three or four years, there would be just five international carriers in Europe. Every other airline, including Aer Lingus, would either go out of business or become a subsidiary of one of the five.

He said Ryanair was the only airline in Europe to guarantee no fuel surcharges and "as a result we are unlikely to make any money this year".

The Ryanair chief executive rejected claims that he was trying to put Aer Arann out of business.

On regional airport development, he said: "There is no future for Donegal; there's no future for Galway; there's absolutely no future for Waterford; there's no future for Sligo and Knock, despite the fact that we fly there, is pretty flakey."

He said Ireland with a population of four million had 11 airports but "seven wouldn't survive without massive subsidies. We subsidise everybody on the Knock-Dublin route to the tune of €120 each." At a time when schools and hospitals needed funding, "we're subsidising the rich to fly between Knock and Dublin. It's insane."

Mr O'Leary said there would be five large airlines in Europe in the next three to four years - "Ryanair, British Airways, Lufthansa, Air France and possibly EasyJet". The rest would go out of business or become subsidiaries of the top five.

Aer Arann managing director Gary Cullen told the committee earlier that if Ryanair had its way, "they will close the small airports, dominate the others and buy Aer Lingus and then you have a monopoly". Mr Cullen said Aer Arann was "hanging in there" on the Dublin-Cork route because it had a strong business customer base.

Transport committee chairman Frank Fahey asked Mr O'Leary why it was necessary to want to put Aer Arann out of business when it was like "a fly on a bullock's back" to Ryanair.

"Ryanair doesn't think about Aer Arann from the 1st January to 31st December in any given year," Mr O'Leary replied. "They are too small for us to worry about."

Asked how he could divert more traffic from Dublin to Shannon, he said "lower prices, but it's very difficult." Probably "75 per cent of Europe wants to go to Dublin. You can't force them to go to Shannon." There were 31 Shannon routes but "you have no idea how difficult it is to fill flights from Frankfurt into Shannon in the middle of November."

Mr Cullen said Aer Arann had "looked at introducing new regional jets in 2010 but have shelved that for 12 months" because "it makes no sense in the current environment to consider moving up to jets".

mike65

Well as he is speculating thats all we can talk about. All I know is that locally, numbers for Waterford are on the up without any PSO help and a new A320/737 friendly runway is due for completion by end 2009. I can't help but think there will be room for niche services IF they are genuinly viable.

Mike.

serfboard

mike65 wrote: »

Well as he is speculating thats all we can talk about. All I know is that locally, numbers for Waterford are on the up without any PSO help and a new A320/737 friendly runway is due for completion by end 2009. I can't help but think there will be room for niche services IF they are genuinly viable.

I know you're a Waterford man, and I don't want to diss your area, but, TBH, I can't see the point in providing a 737-capable runway in Waterford when you have one down the road in Cork. If anything should be done, upgrade the N25 to a motorway/dual carriageway and you can drive/bus it to Cork in no time. This will allow Cork to build enough critical mass to offer greater choices.

Just to show you what I mean, even though I'm a Galwegian, I'm not in favour of the airport in Galway. Give us the M18 and M17 and we'll have 747 capable runways an hour to the north (Knock) and an hour to the south (Shannon) of us. There's no need for any more. Ditto for Sligo (replace with Knock/Derry).

The M17, M18 and possible M25 are all part of the Atlantic Corridor anyway and should be built with their obvious other benefits.

Starting with County Down and going right the way around to Waterford, every coastal county in Ireland has an airport. This is surely unsustainable, and since these airports are actually taking business from each other, they contribute to more airports with less choice instead of a lesser number with greater choice (and less subsidies).

Bards

serfboard wrote: »

I know you're a Waterford man, and I don't want to diss your area, but, TBH, I can't see the point in providing a 737-capable runway in Waterford when you have one down the road in Cork. If anything should be done, upgrade the N25 to a motorway/dual carriageway and you can drive/bus it to Cork in no time. This will allow Cork to build enough critical mass to offer greater choices.

Just to show you what I mean, even though I'm a Galwegian, I'm not in favour of the airport in Galway. Give us the M18 and M17 and we'll have 747 capable runways an hour to the north (Knock) and an hour to the south (Shannon) of us. There's no need for any more. Ditto for Sligo (replace with Knock/Derry).

The M17, M18 and possible M25 are all part of the Atlantic Corridor anyway and should be built with their obvious other benefits.

Starting with County Down and going right the way around to Waterford, every coastal county in Ireland has an airport. This is surely unsustainable, and since these airports are actually taking business from each other, they contribute to more airports with less choice instead of a lesser number with greater choice (and less subsidies).

Waterford Airport is the only airport in the whole country that does not have a PSO route, and is the closest airport to mainland europe

serfboard

Bards wrote: »

Waterford Airport is the only airport in the whole country that does not have a PSO route, and is the closest airport to mainland europe

Fair enough, it doesn't have a PSO route, but it did get €22 million in a government grant earlier this year.

Also, the point is critical mass. The routes that Aer Arann operate to the continent from Waterford are only possible because those routes originate from Galway - which is exactly the point I'm making.

Donegal, Sligo, Galway, Kerry and Waterford received €60 million between them. This money could be used for building better connecting roads to the other airports.

mike65

60 million would upgrade about 20 miles of the N25 to DC standard, as a random example.

Mike.

alpha2zulu

The routes that Aer Arann operate to the continent from Waterford are only possible because those routes originate from Galway

I wouldent be so sure about that there serfboard...When I flew to Malaga earlier this month from overhearing the crew 77 boarded at Waterford, on the return around 80 deboarded at Waterford....and this is on a 95 seat plane.
Besides at peak times trying to get through to the Airport side of Cork is right pain, especially approaching Dunkettle and the Kinsale Rd roundabout.

Victor

serfboard wrote: »

Starting with County Down and going right the way around to Waterford, every coastal county in Ireland has an airport.

Leitrim? Limerick? - I assume you mean airports with scheduled flights.

benbulbin

Knock celebrated Mr O'Leary's comments by giving out free Cadburys "Flake" bars to all the airport and airline staff!

http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=48

Ckal

O'Leary is a jackass. Sorry, but having fallen victim to Ryanair and their crappyness, I think I'm justified in saying that. :P

fly_agaric

Bards wrote: »

In The same week that he critisizes the DAA for having a monopoly in Dublin

LOL, its just other people's monopolies that cause the problems (applies to all businesses).

fricatus

I suppose only time will tell whether O'Leary is right, but I would make a few observations:

- Passenger numbers in Waterford were 24,000 in 2003. They were 116,000 in 2007. They are likely to be higher again in 2008.
- There are four return flights a week to Amsterdam now, and I believe the Luton route is up to three flights a day.
- The M9 and M25 routes are coming on stream within the next two years. These link to the Outer Ring Road south of the city, which in turn links to the new airport road, which has just been completed.
- I know of people from as far away as Laois who now use Waterford airport for flights to London. The Kilkenny ring road has cut the journey time to about the same as Dublin, but the benefits are in check-in and security times.
- Cork is a good alternative for people in county Waterford itself because the N25 is good, but when your starting point is Carlow, Kilkenny or Wexford, the nearby airport in Waterford begins to make a lot of sense.
- Just a personal opinion, but Dublin has got a lot worse in the past two years. It's in a never-ending state of chaos. Surely it's a good thing that alternative airports exist?
- When the M9 is finished and the runway extension at WAT is in place, surely Ryanair could consider using it as an alternative to Dublin? It's the closest alternative airport to the capital. "Frankfurt"-Hahn is 120 km from the city of Frankfurt, remember.
- I don't know a lot about the rest of the airports, but it would seem to me that of all of them, Galway makes the most sense. Indeed the initiative to offer a range of continental flights from Galway via Waterford created a critical mass that mightn't otherwise exist.

Hecate

Bards wrote: »

....

Mr O'Leary said there would be five large airlines in Europe in the next three to four years - "Ryanair, British Airways, Lufthansa, Air France and possibly EasyJet". The rest would go out of business or become subsidiaries of the top five.

....

That reminds me of the famous quote from IBMs chairman in the 1940s about the entire world needing "possibly 5 computers".

ga2re2t

Good thread.

I fly regularly (4 to 5 return flights per year) between France and Ireland, most of the time with Ryanair, and I'm somewhat surprised by O'Leary's comments. I also think that it's all a question of context.

Investing in regional airports in Ireland for improved domestic flights (e.g. Dublin - Kerry) is indeed a waste of taxpayers money and an investment that is the equivalent of taking one step forward and two steps back. That PSO money could be better spent on upgrading the railway between Mallow and Killarney (removal of level crossings for example).

However, Kerry and the other regional airports definitely have their place when it comes to international flights. It's much more convenient for European tourists to fly directly to the likes of Kerry, Shannon and Knock than to pass through Dublin airport. The same goes for Irish tourists to Europe, though I would imagine that the influx of foreign tourists is much greater than the outflux of Irish ones.

These airports don't necessarily need lots of flights all year round. Several flights a week, particularly during the summer period (and maybe Christmas?) would do the job. I recently flew from Tours in France to Dublin. Tours airport is tiny - there were only two check in desks, 3 customs officers and enough apron space for only one Ryanair plane. Tours has one return flight per day, all year, to London Stansted and two return flights per week to Dublin during the summer period. That's it, appart from a few charter flights here and there. But it works because it's a realistic operation: a regional French airport to two European capitals. What's more, it's extremely pleasant to fly from/to Tours. I drove to the airport, parked my car in the free parking and walked two minutes to the check in desk!

I would have to agree with fricatus in saying that Galway makes the most sense. After Dublin, Belfast and Cork, the city of Galway is the most well known Irish city by foreigners, mainly because it is considered as the gateway to Connemara. If Galway were to develop the capacity for 737s, it would certainly be viable, but at the expense of both Shannon and Knock.

merlante

It is important to highlight the fact that Waterford, alone of the regional airports, does not have a PSO route. Therefore there is no incentive for Aer Arann to operate from Waterford if the business is not there. However, Aer Arann are expanding their range and number of flights year on year. It is not important that there are routes from Waterford to every conceivable destination -- that should be the objective of our international airports -- what is important is that Waterford is linked to a small number of major hubs.

The Waterford links to Luton, Birmingham, Manchester and particularly Amsterdam (the only route that is shared with Galway) provide great opportunities for connecting flights from Waterford. In some circumstances it can be more cost effective to travel ex-Waterford via Luton than ex-Dublin or Cork direct. It is also, needless to say, a lot more desirable. I will be travelling to Athens ex-Waterford via Luton next month for the same price as flying direct from Dublin + the train fare to Dublin.

The Waterford-Luton flight is essentially the acid test of whether the airport makes sense or not. This flight provides a hub for Waterford, in London Luton, and has enough business traffic to provide a sound basis for the flight all year around. If this flight were losing money, I'd be inclined to suggest that Waterford Airport was a waste of space. However, it isin't. In fact every time I have flown on this route it has been almost full, if not completely full, in both directions. To read the Aer Arann releases, even with the price of oil where it is, you'd have to be optimistic: http://www.easier.com/view/Travel/Flights/News/article-158946.html: "The Waterford – London route achieved 9000 passengers per month by the third quarter [of 2007]. The new base in Waterford allowed Aer Arann to offer and improved schedule and new routes in the form of Waterford-Birmingham, which has proved a resounding success."

The fact that Aer Arann is expanding at Waterford means that they are making money. That is all that matters.

As for the airport itself, it has survived for many years on the back of annual 'marketing grants', which have often been under the million euro mark. Pathetically small investment really, which almost lead to the closure of the airport a few years ago. The current investment, including the expansion of facilities and the runway is once off funding, and will stand to the airport in the future. This funding and will not be repeated in the short term. It is small money in relative terms, especially spread over the next 20 years or so, particularly when compared to the PSO subsidies that other airports benefit from. There are also other revenue earners operating out of the Waterford Airport, including a pilot training college and an air-sea rescue service. I'm not sure about the connection with Airport business park.

I believe that both Waterford Airport and Aer Arann are at least breaking even on their operations out of Waterford, after a suitable amount of marketing and once off investment. I also believe that links to a small number of hubs are viable from (some) regional airports, since some amount of effort has to be made to fly from Dublin or Cork in any case, and not all destinations are available direct from Cork.

As to O'Leary's comments, O'Leary has his own agenda here I'm sure. All I can say is that an acquisition of Aer Arann by Ryanair would be a disaster for air travel from the regional airports. Ryanair are only interested in bleeding cash cows, they are not interested in developing low margin, local, non-tourism based business. This is a niche that Aer Arann fills very nicely in Ireland.

I would suggest that before people come out with the usual 'regional airports are a waste of tax payers money', that they'd look at the fundamentals of individual airports. PSOs are probably a waste of tax payer's money though.

serfboard

You make some good points there, merlante.

However

merlante wrote: »

The Waterford links to Luton, Birmingham, Manchester and particularly Amsterdam (the only route that is shared with Galway)

Not true because:

alpha2zulu wrote: »

When I flew to Malaga earlier this month from overhearing the crew 77 boarded at Waterford, on the return around 80 deboarded at Waterford

... and the remainder went on to Galway. The same also applies for Faro and Bordeaux.

[Slightly off-topic]You say some good things about Aer Arann. However, delighted as ye all are with Aer Arann's service, once ye get a 737-capable runway in there, Michael O'Leary will be in like a shot (however much he slags it off at the moment). Then, try getting an Aer Arann flight to London - it won't be possible. (To check this, try booking an Aer Arann flight from a 737-capable airport to London - can't do it, and they don't fly out of Shannon or Knock at all.) You can see what Ryanair are doing to Aer Arann on Cork-Dublin now. They'll offer ridiculously cheap fares to Stanstead and Aer Arann's Luton service will be no more. And if you think MOL won't have the gall to operate a service out of Waterford after dismissing it, just look what he did with the PSO route from Kerry. [/sot]

Of course, "competition":rolleyes: will be good for Waterford consumers. Currently only Aer Arann operates a scheduled service out of there. But when ye get yere upgrade, Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Clare, Mayo, Derry, Antrim, Down and Dublin will all have 737-capable runways. One has to wonder whether there will be business there for them all; particularly as money - both consumer and government (grants, subsidies and PSOs) - will start to tighten up.

merlante

serfboard wrote: »

You make some good points there, merlante.

However

Not true because:

... and the remainder went on to Galway. The same also applies for Faro and Bordeaux.

[Slightly off-topic]You say some good things about Aer Arann. However, delighted as ye all are with Aer Arann's service, once ye get a 737-capable runway in there, Michael O'Leary will be in like a shot (however much he slags it off at the moment). Then, try getting an Aer Arann flight to London - it won't be possible. (To check this, try booking an Aer Arann flight from a 737-capable airport to London - can't do it, and they don't fly out of Shannon or Knock at all.) You can see what Ryanair are doing to Aer Arann on Cork-Dublin now. They'll offer ridiculously cheap fares to Stanstead and Aer Arann's Luton service will be no more. And if you think MOL won't have the gall to operate a service out of Waterford after dismissing it, just look what he did with the PSO route from Kerry. [/sot]

Of course, "competition":rolleyes: will be good for Waterford consumers. Currently only Aer Arann operates a scheduled service out of there. But when ye get yere upgrade, Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Clare, Mayo, Derry, Antrim, Down and Dublin will all have 737-capable runways. One has to wonder whether there will be business there for them all; particularly as money - both consumer and government (grants, subsidies and PSOs) - will start to tighten up.

Those other flights that go through Galway are only seasonal flights, though aren't they? In any case, I think the west and the south east combined do have the critical mass to offer popular holiday destinations. Regional airports like Waterford and Galway can sustain short hop flights to major hubs, a flight to London for business, and combined flights to holiday destinations in the summer. If that's all they ever do, they'll be a boon for their respective regions -- and should not be a drain on the tax payer.

If the worst comes to the worst and Waterford doesn't use its new runway for jets in the short term, because of the downturn or the price of oil or some strategic Aer Arann decision, it's not the end of the world. It's a 20 million once off investment that will stand to the airport in the future. I think this investment is very reasonable given that it will have lasting benefits over decades to come. I believe that passenger numbers in Waterford will level out at about 250,000-300,000 per year, and those numbers will justify the investment over the next decade or so.

It's interesting that you suggest a Ryanair takeover as soon as the jet runway is complete. It's a good point. Ryanair might well be moving from a long expansion phase into a very aggressive competitive phase. They could easily destroy Aer Arann, if they wanted to, but would it be worth their while to take over Waterford, Galway, etc.? I'd suggest that O'Leary wouldn't be interested in developing that type of business. Too much effort for too little reward maybe. I don't think that a Ryanair takeover would be good for Waterford consumers in anything but the short term.

Bards

From today's Independent
====================

Thursday July 24 2008

MICHAEL O'Leary is a shameless headline-grabber, so when the Ryanair boss recently phrophesised the imminent demise of Ireland's regional airports, onlookers could be forgiven for looking the other way.

The outspoken Mullingarman, however, isn't the first to question the prospects of the State's six local airports, which jostle for position in an aviation scene dominated by State-owned companies.

Consultants DKM published a scathing report in 2003 on the regional airports, concluding most would collapse in the absence of state-sponsored routes.

Five years later, the trends identified by DKM persist and are all the more pressing as the public purse baulks at the €15m annual price tag of state-sponsored routes as new EU rules threaten several routes' survival beyond 2011.

Soaring security and regulatory costs are also eating into small airports' profit margins, while rocketing oil prices and a global aviation downturn is crippling their efforts to attract new routes. Maybe not just another mad Michael O'Leary prophecy then.

At the heart of DKM's concerns was the central role of state-sponsored Public Service Obligation (PSO) routes in most regional airports' business models.

Back in 2003, Kerry Airport was found to be "very dependent" on its PSO route to Dublin because, although Kerry had "substantial other business", much of it came from Ryanair, which was paying negligible landing fees.

Today, Kerry has a scattering of non-PSO routes from Ryanair and Aer Arann, but the PSO service remains the airport's "bread and butter" -- to quote finance director Basil Sheerin.

When DKM reported, Galway Airport sourced the bulk of its business from its Aer Arann-operated PSO route, but also offered Aer Arann routes to a handful of other destinations.

The consultants concluded that the other Aer Arann routes would be "vulnerable" if the Dublin PSO was terminated. "It is possible that Galway would lose all its services," the report concluded glumly.

Galway went on to lure UK airline FlyBe, providing much needed diversity. That service, however, was abandoned earlier this year, leaving Galway's scheduled traffic entirely in the lap of Aer Arann, while the airport's income is heavily weighted towards the PSO route.

Its western neighbours, Sligo and Donegal, are in similar positions, surviving on a PSO route to Dublin and handful of UK services, all operated by Aer Arann. "In the absence of some other form of subsidisation, Sligo Airport would close to commercial traffic [without the PSOs]," DKM concluded, in a finding that rings true for both airports today.

Bucking the trend, Knock Airport chief executive Robert Grealis rejects DKM's finding that PSO grants are "very significant financially for the airport" insisting Knock's Dublin service represents "only a small percentage of our income".

While Grealis can argue the toss on PSO dependence, his airport's reliance on traffic from Ryanair is undeniable, with more than 40pc of Knock's passengers sourced from the famously-fickle low cost airline.

Other airports, however, are in far worse positions, with massive exposure to Aer Arann in particular.

The airline's commercial director Fergal Barry speaks passionately of Aer Arann's enduring devotion to the regions, insisting the plans are for growth not cutbacks.

With oil remaining at record highs, however, Aer Arann's ability to survive the winter season has been repeatedly called into question. If the airline were to collapse, there would be a profound knock-on affect for regional airports, though some optimistically suggest they could attract replacement airlines.

As well as the PSOs, most regional airports are also propped up by an "operational expenditure subvention scheme", which paid out €1.6m in 2006, €2.26m last year, and is expected to pay out a similar amount in 2008.

Despite the hefty day-to-day subsidies, most regional airports remain only marginally profitable. Knock made profits of €332,000 in 2006 (down about €45,000 year-on-year), Sligo made €170,000 (down €130,000), Galway made about €4,500 (reversing a €417,000 loss for 2005) and Waterford made €45,000 (down from €261,000).

And the future may be bleaker, as the vital PSO support propping up those numbers, could soon be in jeopardy.

Aer Arann boss Garry Cullen recently admitted the subsidies were "unlikely" to continue at current levels. In a statement, the Department of Transport confirmed that new EU rules, due to come into force this year, would change the PSO guidelines by requiring member states to have "particular regard to other transport modes, especially where there are suitable train services with journey times of less than three hours".

Of the current PSOs, Sligo, Knock and Galway all fall foul of the three-hour train rule, while road improvements may put the other PSO airports within closer reach.

Any rowback on the PSO would be a "retrograde step", Knock's Grealis says. Kerry's Sheerin is more frank: "We have no back-up plan, the elimination of PSOs would be our worst possible scenario".

Waterford, the only regional airport without a PSO, meanwhile, is sitting pretty with extensive European and UK services from Aer Arann.

"Not having a PSO has forced us to think and operate in a certain way," says chief executive Graham Doyle, "and it's worked".

The southern airport is now hoping to up the ante with a €27m development programme, aided by a €22m in Government grants, which includes a runway capable of handling a Ryanair or Aer Lingus sized jet, massively expanding the airport's potential.
The other five regional airports are also planning extensive Government-sponsored development plans, spending a combined €64m of state money between now and 2010.

Whether they'll survive to reap the benefits of that outlay remains to be seen.

merlante

I'm shocked, the first piece of journalism on regional airports that acknowledge that a) Waterford does not have anything like the subsidies of other airports, and b) that the airport is not a failure and waste of money.

A decent piece of analysis on regional airports for a change.

serfboard

Bards wrote: »

From today's Independent
====================
Other airports, however, are in far worse positions, with massive exposure to Aer Arann in particular.

The airline's commercial director Fergal Barry speaks passionately of Aer Arann's enduring devotion to the regions, insisting the plans are for growth not cutbacks.

With oil remaining at record highs, however, Aer Arann's ability to survive the winter season has been repeatedly called into question. If the airline were to collapse, there would be a profound knock-on affect for regional airports, though some optimistically suggest they could attract replacement airlines.

Galway and Waterford are 100% dependent on Aer Arann for their scheduled services. As a business model this has to be called in to question.

and

Bards wrote: »

From today's Independent
The southern airport is now hoping to up the ante with a €27m development programme, aided by a €22m in Government grants, which includes a runway capable of handling a Ryanair or Aer Lingus sized jet, massively expanding the airport's potential.

Ain't no way Aer Lingus are going to fly into Waterford. See how they pulled out of European routes from Shannon, opting to go to Belfast instead. Say what you like about Ryanair, but they are the airline that actually use the regional airports (Derry, Kerry, Knock and Shannon). Ironically, the 25% state-owned airline does not.

mike65

I don't think anyone down here is exepcting anything from the notional National Carrier, indeed it would be a bad move if they ever came in my view as it might lull management into thinking the airport was secure for good.

Mike.

Bards

serfboard wrote: »

Galway and Waterford are 100% dependent on Aer Arann for their scheduled services. As a business model this has to be called in to question.

and


Ain't no way Aer Lingus are going to fly into Waterford. See how they pulled out of European routes from Shannon, opting to go to Belfast instead. Say what you like about Ryanair, but they are the airline that actually use the regional airports (Derry, Kerry, Knock and Shannon). Ironically, the 25% state-owned airline does not.

Dare I mention 24 Hr Air Sea Rescue service that is based here along with the Pilot training centre, not to mention the many privatly owned aircraft, and the new business park next door, not bad for Ireland's only airport without PSO routes and a sub-standard runway

dowlingm

Maybe the wrong question is being asked here - not why does WAT not have a PSO but is it time to pull the existing ones?

Given my druthers, I'd pull LDY, GWY and SXL at least. KIR, NOC and CFN are far enough from Dublin that it might be worth keeping for now.

I'd use that money to fund further speed and frequency improvements to rail services to Galway and Sligo - i.e. more passing loops between Athenry and Portarlington, double track Maynooth-Mullingar and add passing loops north of Mullingar. From a CO2 emissions point of view, an issue Ireland is going to come under a lot of pressure on, it's certainly a better call.

As Waterford people heading to Cork - if I was going anywhere other than Spain I'd probably use Dublin - only 40km in the difference - given the far better connections.

fricatus

dowlingm wrote: »

As Waterford people heading to Cork - if I was going anywhere other than Spain I'd probably use Dublin - only 40km in the difference - given the far better connections.

It may be only 40 km in the difference on the map, but I swear it's about two hours of a difference when you do it in real life. Here are my experiences, having flown out of all three airports in the past year.

Cork: drive down, 1h 30 on good roads, a bit of a queue at the Dunkettle Interchange, a bit stop-start then the rest of the way to the airport. Park in the long-term, 5 minutes walk to the terminal. Check-in time about 5-10 minutes, security maybe another 5.

Dublin: 2h to the Red Cow on sh1t roads (at least the Carlow bypass is there now). Maybe another hour to the airport, most of it spent queuing on the fcuking M50. After parking, maybe another 25 minutes by the time the shuttle bus comes along, fills up, trundles along and lets us out. Horrendous queues for check-in and security (about 30-45 minutes each the last few times I was there).

Waterford: scoot out the road, park in front of the terminal, check in, go through security. Front door to departure lounge: 28 minutes. (I timed it) In central London 3 hours later. I'd just be grabbing the shuttle bus in Dublin at that stage.

Schuhart

There is a fundamental lack of coherence in State policy on airports but, in fairness, I think that’s really about what happens in the West. That’s were we mostly see arrant nonsense talked. For the sake of example, we can see from the map on the last page of this that Shannon Airport serves the whole country, apart from Dublin, Meath and possibly some parts of North Kildare.

Slightly more seriously, there is a Government sponsored plan out there that talks about promoting “the wider catchment of Shannon airport, from Kerry to Donegal.” Its not clear how far East this ‘wider catchment’ goes, but lets assume it at least covers everything West of the Shannon.

At much the same time, Knock Airport is describing itself as ‘the gateway to the West and North West of Ireland’. So clearly both are chasing essentially the same people, or at least an enormously overlapping group.

This raises a question of why the Government secured State Aid clearance for a package of investments in the regional airports like Knock if they’re now promoting Shannon as the Gateway to practically all of the places they serve.

This is where the issues are really at stake, and the level of pure bull the highest. Consider these comments from the current CEO of Knock

Grealis believes Knock’s real competition lies not so much in its neighbouring rivals but other regional airports across the EU.

“Essentially we are competing for the use of the aircraft of Ryanair and other airlines that can be deployed at any airport around Europe,” reasons Grealis.

I’d suggest this is just verbal dodging. I take it we all understand that the Western airports are essentially all chasing the same customers, and this will be what determines whether an airline decides to base a service there. It is simply not possible for Knock and Shannon to both publically state that they are targeting the same customers and then pretend they are not in competition.

If Waterford can find a niche, fine. The problem coming down the line is, with road improvements, journeys will simply take less time. Dublin has proven that it can attract business, despite what has to be the shoddiest terminal in any major city in Europe. That will be improved, and transport improvements will make it even easier to get to from anywhere.

And, while I know its far from pretty, if 75% of our air traffic is passing through Dublin, despite plenty of capacity in other Irish airports, I think we know that using it actually isn’t quite as much of a nightmare as is made out. I’m a fairly regular business user of the airport, typically using it at least once a month and frequently more often than that, and I always feel an obligation in these kinds of thread to mention what I think is good work by the DAA frontline staff in getting people through an inadequate small space. Its not their fault that the Government dithered over the new terminal.

Anyway, if Waterford can cover a niche, fair play. Cork seems to be holding its own, despite its many disadvantages. But if the West doesn’t get its collective act together, they will be left without a major airport. There’s an hourly bus service from Galway to Dublin Airport. I expect we’ll see more of them, if the West decides that every county must have its airport.

serfboard

dowlingm wrote: »

I'd use that money to fund further speed and frequency improvements to rail services to Galway and Sligo - i.e. more passing loops between Athenry and Portarlington, double track Maynooth-Mullingar and add passing loops north of Mullingar. From a CO2 emissions point of view, an issue Ireland is going to come under a lot of pressure on, it's certainly a better call.

+1. Although personally, I'd prefer that Portarlington-Athlone was double-tracked given that that part of the line is shared by Galway and Mayo trains.

dowlingm wrote: »

As Waterford people heading to Cork - if I was going anywhere other than Spain I'd probably use Dublin - only 40km in the difference - given the far better connections.

And, I imagine that when the M9 and M50 are finished, the road journey from Waterford will be a lot better. And you'll only have to pay one toll to get to Dublin airport (M50) as opposed to Galway people who'll have to pay three :eek: