Immigrant body lodges Garda complaint over Myers article

djpbarry

Article in today's Times about a complaint lodged with the Gardaí by the Immigrant Council of Ireland to investigate whether an article Kevin Myers has breached incitement to hatred legislation. While I don't think anything will come of the complaint, I can understand their anger. Myers is clearly an unashamed self-publicist, who (I think) will write just about anything to rile people, but I found elements of the article in question to be deeply offensive and totally inappropriate for a national newspaper. Some select quotes:

Kevin Myers wrote:

Indeed, we now have almost an entire continent of sexually hyperactive indigents...
...
Africa, with its vast savannahs and its lush pastures, is giving almost nothing to anyone, apart from AIDS.
...
It is inspiring Bill Gates' programme to rid the continent of malaria, when, in the almost complete absence of personal self-discipline, that disease is one of the most efficacious forms of population-control now operating.

If his programme is successful, tens of millions of children who would otherwise have died in infancy will survive to adulthood, he boasts. Oh good: then what? I know. Let them all come here. Yes, that's an idea.

He is essentially questioning whether giving aid to the likes of Ethiopia is such a good idea; would it not be better to just let them all die to control the continent's (and the world's) population? Needless to say I strongly disagree.

So, I suppose there's two points to this thread. First of all, are the ICI justified in their anger at this article? I believe so, although, as I already said, it's unlikely anything will come of their complaint. I suppose Myers is entitled to spout whatever ****e he likes, but I don't like the idea that the biggest-selling newspaper in the country (I think) is giving him a forum to do so. Which brings me to the second point of this thread; is Myers right? Should we just let all the Ethiopians starve? Should we allow people in Darfur to be massacred? Should we give a toss what Mugabe does or does not do? In my opinion, no, no, no and yes, respectively. While Africa is undoubtedly at least partly responsible for the mess that it presently finds itself in (in parts), the West (and East) is also partly responsible, e.g. arms dealing, restricted access to American/EU markets for African goods.

The_Minister

Errr no.
The issue is whether or not that article is so bad that it has to be illegal.
The issue is whether or not Myers should be interviewed by the guards for writing an article that goes against the grain.

I would say no. Freedom of speech, liberty, rabble, rabble, rabble.

I'm not going to go into detail about why being a neo-Malthusian shouldn't be a crime, so I'll leave you with:

John Stuart Mill wrote:

The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.

Camac Hibs

On has to suspect that there would be more public outrage if Myers had advocated a similar nazi-style "Final Solution" for any other group of people.

eoin5

Athough his credability is naught at this stage I think we need people like him to stir the pot sometimes. We get to see things a bit more clearly when he drags people down to his level.

Honey-ec

I read the article when it was published last week, and while certain aspects of his delivery leave a lot to be desired and some parts of it were deliberately provocative (imho), I agree with his general point.

At the risk of sounding like Anita Roddick, trade, not aid is what Africa needs. Throwing money into the hands of despots who use old tribal rivalries as the basis for their policies is not going to help anyone.

The_Minister

Camac Hibs wrote: »

On has to suspect that there would be more public outrage if Myers had advocated a similar nazi-style "Final Solution" for any other group of people.

You obviously haven't read the article, or are incredibly ignorant as to what the Nazi's actually did.

Article in full:

Kevin Myers wrote:

By Kevin Myers


Thursday July 10 2008

No. It will not do. Even as we see African states refusing to take action to restore something resembling civilisation in Zimbabwe, the begging bowl for Ethiopia is being passed around to us, yet again. It is nearly 25 years since Ethiopia's (and Bob Geldof's) famous Feed The World campaign, and in that time Ethiopia's population has grown from 33.5 million to 78 million today.

So why on earth should I do anything to encourage further catastrophic demographic growth in that country? Where is the logic? There is none. To be sure, there are two things saying that logic doesn't count.

One is my conscience, and the other is the picture, yet again, of another wide-eyed child, yet again, gazing, yet again, at the camera, which yet again, captures the tragedy of . . .

Sorry. My conscience has toured this territory on foot and financially. Unlike most of you, I have been to Ethiopia; like most of you, I have stumped up the loot to charities to stop starvation there. The wide-eyed boy-child we saved, 20 years or so ago, is now a priapic, Kalashnikov-bearing hearty, siring children whenever the whim takes him.

There is, no doubt a good argument why we should prolong this predatory and dysfunctional economic, social and sexual system; but I do not know what it is. There is, on the other hand, every reason not to write a column like this.

It will win no friends, and will provoke the self-righteous wrath of, well, the self-righteous, letter-writing wrathful, a species which never fails to contaminate almost every debate in Irish life with its sneers and its moral superiority. It will also probably enrage some of the finest men in Irish life, like John O'Shea, of Goal; and the Finucane brothers, men whom I admire enormously. So be it.

But, please, please, you self-righteously wrathful, spare me mention of our own Famine, with this or that lazy analogy. There is no comparison. Within 20 years of the Famine, the Irish population was down by 30pc. Over the equivalent period, thanks to western food, the Mercedes 10-wheel truck and the Lockheed Hercules, Ethiopia's has more than doubled.

Alas, that wretched country is not alone in its madness. Somewhere, over the rainbow, lies Somalia, another fine land of violent, Kalashnikov-toting, khat-chewing, girl-circumcising, permanently tumescent layabouts.

Indeed, we now have almost an entire continent of sexually

hyperactive indigents, with tens of millions of people who only survive because of help from the outside world.

This dependency has not stimulated political prudence or commonsense. Indeed, voodoo idiocy seems to be in the ascendant, with the next president of South Africa being a firm believer in the efficacy of a little tap water on the post-coital penis as a sure preventative against infection. Needless to say, poverty, hunger and societal meltdown have not prevented idiotic wars involving Tigre, Uganda, Congo, Sudan, Somalia, Eritrea etcetera.

Broad brush-strokes, to be sure. But broad brush-strokes are often the way that history paints its gaudier, if more decisive, chapters. Japan, China, Russia, Korea, Poland, Germany, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the 20th century have endured worse broad brush-strokes than almost any part of Africa.

They are now -- one way or another -- virtually all giving aid to or investing in Africa, whereas Africa, with its vast savannahs and its lush pastures, is giving almost nothing to anyone, apart from AIDS.

Meanwhile, Africa's peoples are outstripping their resources, and causing catastrophic ecological degradation. By 2050, the population of Ethiopia will be 177 million: The equivalent of France, Germany and Benelux today, but located on the parched and increasingly protein-free wastelands of the Great Rift Valley.

So, how much sense does it make for us actively to increase the adult population of what is already a vastly over-populated, environmentally devastated and economically dependent country?

How much morality is there in saving an Ethiopian child from starvation today, for it to survive to a life of brutal circumcision, poverty, hunger, violence and sexual abuse, resulting in another half-dozen such wide-eyed children, with comparably jolly little lives ahead of them? Of course, it might make you feel better, which is a prime reason for so much charity. But that is not good enough.

For self-serving generosity has been one of the curses of Africa. It has sustained political systems which would otherwise have collapsed.

It prolonged the Eritrean-Ethiopian war by nearly a decade. It is inspiring Bill Gates' programme to rid the continent of malaria, when, in the almost complete absence of personal self-discipline, that disease is one of the most efficacious forms of population-control now operating.

If his programme is successful, tens of millions of children who would otherwise have died in infancy will survive to adulthood, he boasts. Oh good: then what?I know. Let them all come here. Yes, that's an idea.

His point is that our aid has made things worse, because now their population is so high that we can't make them a functioning country, because they are too many to support themselves. He thinks that letting them die would hae been better, since all we've managed to do is turn 33m on the breadline to 79m people on the breadline.

I don't agree with him, but try addressing his actual points, rather than using a lazy nazi comparison.

mike65

This should be tacked onto the thread about this article.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055333479&page=4

What the fupp does this have to do with a bunch of whiney do-gooders?

Mike.

Zombrex

djpbarry wrote: »

First of all, are the ICI justified in their anger at this article?

I think anyone would be justifed to be angry (though hardly surprised) at this article, it is typical Myers misinformed nonsense. You are likely to get more thought out considered opinion from a taxi driver.

But I have strong objections to the law on this matter, and I think this case highlights the nonsense of an Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred act. There is nothing in Myers article that should be illegal to say, even if it is hatred.

Incitement to violence maybe (though difficult to define I would imagine), but hating someone isn't (or shouldn't) be a crime. If Myers hates Africa and Africans and want everyone to agree with him I've certainly don't think that should be illegal.

The_Minister

Wicknight wrote: »

Incitement to violence maybe (though difficult to define I would imagine), but hating someone isn't (or shouldn't) be a crime.

+1
I was so annoyed when I found out that the UN thought we weren't looking after human rights, because we didn't have hate crime laws.

djpbarry

The_Minister wrote: »

The issue is whether or not Myers should be interviewed by the guards for writing an article that goes against the grain.

I would say no. Freedom of speech, liberty, rabble, rabble, rabble.

And I would agree (I thought I said that in my original post).

Honey-ec wrote: »

At the risk of sounding like Anita Roddick, trade, not aid is what Africa needs.

Absolutely – something that people like Myers frequently overlook.

mike65 wrote: »

This should be tacked onto the thread about this article.

Apologies – didn’t realise there was one. I didn’t think to check Humanities.

mike65 wrote: »

What the fupp does this have to do with a bunch of whiney do-gooders?

I presume you’re referring to the ICI? I thought that myself, but I suppose they feel they represent Africans in Ireland and they should make their opinions known on their behalf?

Wicknight wrote: »

But I have strong objections to the law on this matter, and I think this case highlights the nonsense of an Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred act. There is nothing in Myers article that should be illegal to say, even if it is hatred.

Absolutely, but what disturbs me is that he is getting paid a (presumably) reasonable sum of money to say it.

Camac Hibs

The_Minister wrote: »

You obviously haven't read the article, or are incredibly ignorant as to what the Nazi's actually did.




His point is that our aid has made things worse, because now their population is so high that we can't make them a functioning country, because they are too many to support themselves. He thinks that letting them die would hae been better, since all we've managed to do is turn 33m on the breadline to 79m people on the breadline.

I don't agree with him, but try addressing his actual points, rather than using a lazy nazi comparison.

I don’t think the comparison is lazy at all– Myers dehumanizes an entire population, which then allows him to speak free and easy about how millions of them dying might be a good idea.

There are valid points to be made about the efficacy of Aid – myers doesn’t make them.

He advocates malaria and aids as effective ways of keeping the population down – he justifies this solution by characterizing the population of an entire continent as sub-human – “sexually hyperactive, kalashnikov-bearing layabouts”. An alternative, perhaps, would be to support the tireless efforts of many Africans themselves to educate their own people about effective family planning.

The whole article contains the preposterous characterization of Africa’s problems as a burden on the white man. The exploitation of the continent by the colonial powers and the continued exploitation of its resources by western corporations is extremely pertinent to its current plight. Extraordinarily, and ironically, Myers believes Africa has only given aids to the world.

The “idiotic wars” he refers to cannot be viewed in a geo-politcal and historical vacuum, as if there is something inhererently belligerent in the African psyche. Many, though by no means all, of such conflicts can be traced to the effects of the national borders inherited by Africa after decolonization, the colonial “lines in the sand” that took no consideration of the ethnic and cultural compostiton of the territory. In such a situation anywhere in the world there would be a likelihood of conflict around such faultlines – we have seen this even in Europe, where states by and large have been allowed to form around such common ties. This, combined with the divide and rule tactics of the colonial powers, where elites and stratification were often encouraged along ethnic lines, have contributed greatly to the instability and failure of the post-colonial African state.

Myers laments the west throwing money at the continent with an air of self-righteousness and moral superiority, inadvertently creating a culture of dependency, yet goes on to praise an organization which embodies this approach in bypassing local agency. If aid is to work, it has to support and empower Africans themselves to change their environment. However, Myers clearly believes they are incapable of helping themselves and is as breathtakingly stupid as to equate populations with the despotic governments that oppress them.

Zombrex

djpbarry wrote: »

Absolutely, but what disturbs me is that he is getting paid a (presumably) reasonable sum of money to say it.

He is an Irish Bill O'Reilly ... he gets paid to be controversial because it generates discussion and sales for the Independent.

You could pick any of the regular posters of this type of nonsense on Boards.ie, give them an Independent column, and sit back and count the money.

The mistake people make is thinking that some how because Myers is on a national newspaper this some how means something. It really doesn't. In this modern age of mass media they will give a column to anyone who generates sales. The Independent doesn't have credibility, so why would anyone expect their opinion pieces to be anything other than this drivel.

DadaKopf

Best thing is to ignore him. I'm annoyed about his article, but I sure ain't getting hot'n'both'rd about it.

irish_bob

Wicknight wrote: »

He is an Irish Bill O'Reilly ... he gets paid to be controversial because it generates discussion and sales for the Independent.

You could pick any of the regular posters of this type of nonsense on Boards.ie, give them an Independent column, and sit back and count the money.

The mistake people make is thinking that some how because Myers is on a national newspaper this some how means something. It really doesn't. In this modern age of mass media they will give a column to anyone who generates sales. The Independent doesn't have credibility, so why would anyone expect their opinion pieces to be anything other than this drivel.

thats harsh , bill o reilly is nothing but a gop mouthpiece posing as a maverick independant thinker
kevin myers carrys no water for any political party

btw , heres an excellent article from the man himself from today

yers


Wednesday July 16 2008

Sometimes I feel that I'm getting my news through a different decoding machine from everyone else. My personal Ultra gets the messages from Afghanistan, and produces a picture of terror and defeat. But everyone else's Ultra receives nothing to disturb their inner calm -- I'm so looking forward to the Olympics: and Wimbledon was rather good this year, wasn't it?

Simply: we are losing the war in Afghanistan, but almost no one else seems either to notice or to care. Now, when such obvious differences of opinion occur, my general experience has been that I am wrong. The peace process is a fine example. But whereas all the indices that the peace process was actually winding the violence down, the indices in Afghanistan are going in the opposite direction, so maybe for once, I am right. The situation is getting worse there.

Yet far from mobilising themselves and their political will about the historic purpose of reversing the tide of war in the Hindu Kush, our babbling friends in the EU are fretting over the purposeless, contemptible Lisbon Treaty.

But this is a bauble, a bagatelle, as relevant to the coming year as a lump of hardened chewing gum found under a school desk on the first day of the autumn term.

On Sunday morning, Taliban insurgents attacked and nearly overwhelmed a US army outpost, killing nine soldiers and wounding 19. This was a truly terrible reverse, violating the accepted norms of insurgency warfare: for such events occur early in such a war, not six years on.

By this time, the war should have reached a phase where conventional forces have achieved such a critical mass and are so strong that the insurgents are obliged to seek out easy, soft targets: the schoolteacher, the minor government official. For insurgents to have almost captured a US post and slaughtered so many of its people is not merely absurd, it is profoundly worrying.

Almost as bad were the allied press statements afterwards, reporting that the insurgents had lost more men dead in the assault. Listen, I can take you back 40 years and let you hear the same cretinous communiques from US army command, Saigon. For while allied casualties are falling in Iraq, they are rising in Afghanistan.

In May, 23 foreign soldiers died in Afghanistan, and 21 died in Iraq. In June, the deadliest month since the war began seven years ago, 46 foreign soldiers died in Afghanistan, and 31 died in Iraq. July looks as if it will be worse still.

There are other worrying signs. A company sergeant major of the British Parachute Regiment was killed in a fire-fight, and an intelligence officer and three SAS men killed in a single attack. In the 26 years of insurgency in Northern Ireland, the IRA was never able to kill a senior Para NCO in a firefight, nor achieve such a dreadful success against intelligence and Special Forces.

Taliban's recent suicide bomb attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul, in one of the most supposedly 'secure' areas of the Afghan capital, killed 40 people. Among the casualties was the Indian military attache, and one of the highest ranking officers in Indian intelligence. Headlines across Europe, surely? Barely a mention.

Allied fatalities tell you all you to need to know. Last month, the death toll consisted of 28 Americans, 13 Britons, two Canadians, one Pole, one Romanian and one Hungarian. On the one hand, you have the three countries which landed in Normandy on D-Day in June 1944, so beginning the liberation of western Europe; and on the other, three of the countries which were to fall under communism at around the same time. These former iron curtain countries know the real meaning of freedom, for their 'liberation' came at the point of a Soviet bayonet, which then remained for another four decades. Entirely absent from the casualty lists are those mainland EU countries which were freed in 1944-45, and who, under the American protectorate, have taken freedom for granted ever since.

Nearly a million EU soldiers luxuriate in their barracks in Europe, while the outposts of civilisation are being overrun in Afghanistan. But let's not be too beastly to the Germans: they do have a garrison in northern Afghanistan. However, their men don't patrol at night: too dangerous, you see -- why, there might be nasty, nasty Taliban around. And this, dear God, from the land of Guderian, Rommel and von Stauffenberg.

An epochal struggle is under way in Afghanistan, one in which we cannot out-terrorise terrorists, but only, and consistently, outnumber them.

Otherwise, allied soldiers go into an Afghan village with medical supplies and food, but because of manpower shortages they then leave. Taliban come the next night, execute all the little girls who can spell, and also leave. Who henceforth is remembered? Who henceforth obeyed? Moreover, civilisations under threat, like old terraced houses, lean on one another. When Afghanistan falls, watch Pakistan topple.

And what, daddy, did you do when Islamicists spread their rule unbrokenly from the Caspian to Kashmir? Why, my child we discussed something called Lisbon. I can't remember quite what it was all about, but I do know it was very important.

kmyers@independent.ie


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oscarBravo

Kevin Myers wrote:

...we are losing the war in Afghanistan...

I didn't know we were at war in Afghanistan. So much for neutrality.

St_Crispin

I was thinking about something similar today.

There are hundreds of millions living below what we would call the poverty line. Maybe a billion or more. And we want them to be raised above it. Get them to a level at least where they are not at risk of starvation or malnutrition. Get their infrastructure to a stage where the majority are not at risk from the whims of nature. And can at least respond when the worst natural disasters occur.
This is good. We need to help our fellow man. We cannot stand idily by while people starve in the millions or millions more are displaced by natural disasters.

But this means building more. It means more land clearance. And it means more infrastructure. Which right now means more oil. As we've seen from places like china and india (where at least half the population still live in near squalor by our standards), when this happens we drive up the price of oil. Because opec are producing more than ever right now, but that isn't enough to meet demand.
If we managed to save everyone and immediately get them to the level we're at, oil wouldn't run out in 40 years, it would happen right now. Because even if we doubled production, we wouldn't have enough. That would result in massive industrial meltdown and war to control resources. And we'd be right back where we started.
And that's just looking at oil. That's not considering resources like wood and especially water. THe pentagon released a paper which involved strategic planning for the new century. It anticipates massive conflict around the globe, and water is one of the key resources fought for.
If you take the Nile for example. Egypt has the rights to the water of the nile based on a treaty written in the turn of the century. IF Sudan or eritrea damn the nile or use extra water for irregation, they're breaking the treaty. Egypt have said they will consider that act an agressive action and will respond with full force. But eritrea and Sudan have millions on the brink of starvation and need the water, so what are they to do? Especially if global warming means that their condition gets worse. Or if their infrastructure gets better and they are consuming water at the level first world countries do. And this sort of result has consequences that are not just local. It destabilises entire regions and continents.

So what do we do? If we help these people we will actually speed up our own demise and just postpone theirs. If we don't, they die anyway. And that may be the kind of point Myers was trying to make in his usual antagonistic manner

mike65

oscarBravo wrote: »

I didn't know we were at war in Afghanistan. So much for neutrality.

Was waiting for someone to pick up on that. "We" as in the wesht, which we are all part of - apart from the towel heads who want to take over from within. /runs.

Mike.

slartibardfast

I'm appalled by the article too even though I'd normally ignore Myers, really think he went too far this time!

I made an online complaint with the Press Ombudsman, under this provision of their code:

Principle 8 − Incitement to Hatred
Newspapers and periodicals shall not publish material intended or likely to cause grave offence or stir up hatred against an individual or group on the basis of their race, religion, nationality, colour, ethnic origin, membership of the travelling community, gender, sexual orientation, marital status, disability, illness, or age.

Wonder if the press ombudsman has much power. Can anyone recall any high profile decisions/rulings by them?

mike65

In your estimation how does the article fall foul of the Principle set out above?

Mike.

ninty9er

Incitement to hatred is essentially about deliberately setting out to cause others to dislike people or objects becasue of something that you have said or done.

While he may have pissed people off, what he says isn't actually beyond the realms of reality, nor does it incite hatred.

slartibardfast

Hi Mike,

In general I felt that irrespective of the authors argument on aid, the level of stereotyping involved in the article is likely to cause "grave offence or stir up hatred" towards Irish residents of African nationality. Probably very presumptuous, however given the importance of media in shaping peoples views over time, I really don't think it is appropriate for editors allow publication material that almost gleefully characterises an entire continent as somehow deviant!

GuanYin

Surprised? Not me.

I don't know the man or his works but it is the type of sensationalism you see in countries undergoing change.

It probably helps that Ireland seems to have a small but significant body of like minded people.

AlekSmart

Oddly enough i feel that startibardfast`s contention that..... " I really don't think it is appropriate for editors allow publication material that almost gleefully characterises an entire continent as somehow deviant!" is not vaild here.

If anything I feel that Mr Myers ascribes any deviance to the likes of Bill Gates`s crusade or even the continuing fascination of Western Rock Stars and Royalty with the "Plight of Africa" as a concept.

The Western ideal of Africa is far from an easy one to accept as it contains so many basic if not downright lethal contradictions.
Why for example is the Western Tobacco industry streaming so much of it`s output to the Dark continent ?
Why also is the same industry using it`s most lethally potent Tar and Nicotene products there with almost no mention of "Health Warnings" or of the known risks to human health ?

I don`t hear any shouts of "Boycott the Tobacco Companies" `cos they`re killing Africans....?

Mr Myers wrote little more than a factual if opinionated piece about how we in the West continue to patronize an entire continent and it`s occupants whilst refusing to allow them the luxury of determining their own futures unmolested by well meaning platitudes

ejmaztec

The West could just walk away, but the African continent will never be allowed to go unhindered by outside influence. The Chinese and the Russians will share the continent between them and neither will be hampered by political correctness, or public opinion, in any way, shape or form.

I can see the time when PC is consigned to the dustbin by emerging far right-wing Western politicians. The masses will become so pis5ed off trying to control their urges, they'll just give up altogether, and no longer vote for the saintly politicians who promote overseas aid, to the detriment of their poor constituents.

O'Morris

He has a good follow-up article to this in today's Irish Independent, one of the best I've read in a while.

Kevin Myers wrote:

Since dear old Ireland can often enough resemble Lynch Mob Central on PC issues, I braced myself for the worst: and sure enough, in poured the emails. Three hundred on the first day, soon reaching over 800: but, amazingly, 90pc+ were in my support,

Kevin Myers wrote:

The minority who attacked me were risibly predictable, expressing themselves with a vindictive and uninquiring moral superiority.........

......But back in Ireland, there are sanctimonious ginger-groups, which yearn to prevent discussion, and even to imprison those of us who try, however imperfectly, to expose the truth about Africa.

Old Mac knows what it's like alright.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

He has a good follow-up article to this in today's Irish Independent, one of the best I've read in a while.

I find Myers' claims of suppression quite laughable, considering he's writing in a national paper (since 2005, I think). He's essentially whinging about other people expressing opinions contrary to his own.

O'Morris wrote: »

Old Mac knows what it's like alright.

Really? You have also expressed the opinion that the poor and needy in Africa should be left to die and, as a result, have been threatened with arrest?

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote:

I find Myers' claims of suppression quite laughable,

What claims of suppression? He didn't say anything about suppression.

djpbarry wrote:

He's essentially whinging about other people expressing opinions contrary to his own.

It's more than expressing contrary opinions. The ICI weren't just expressing contrary opinions when they reported him to the police.

djpbarry wrote:

Really? You have also expressed the opinion that the poor and needy in Africa should be left to die and, as a result, have been threatened with arrest?

Not at all, I'm on thin ice as it is so I'm not even going to look sideways at the Africans.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

What claims of suppression? He didn't say anything about suppression.

Not that exact word, no. But he has implied (as you have in another thread) in the past that debate on immigration is somehow not tolerated in this country, which is absolute nonsense. The man puts his rantings in column-form in a national newspaper and he is also a regular on Irish television (he has appeared on The Late, Late Show and Questions & Answers, among other programmes) discussing the subject. I'm not sure what else he wants; an audience with the UN?

O'Morris wrote: »

It's more than expressing contrary opinions. The ICI weren't just expressing contrary opinions when they reported him to the police.

In a manner of speaking, they were. They were of the opinion that Myers was inciting hatred and so they acted accordingly. It is highly unlikely that anything will come of their complaint and I'm sure even they know that. However, due to the publicity generated by their actions, a very large number of people are now aware of their collective opinion on the issue.

O'Morris wrote: »

Not at all, I'm on thin ice as it is so I'm not even going to look sideways at the Africans.

:rolleyes:

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote:

Not that exact word, no. But he has implied (as you have in another thread) in the past that debate on immigration is somehow not tolerated in this country, which is absolute nonsense.

Is it absolute nonsense or is there not an element of truth to it? Why hasn't there been a single serious debate in Dail Eireann in the last five years? We have at least twice as many immigrants as our nearest neighbour, the non-national population has increased to over 10% in less than 10 years, there have been predictions of Irish people becoming a minority by 2050, entire schools and entire areas of Dublin have become completely non-Irish and yet we haven't heard a peep from the politicians? We hear plenty about the need for a debate on the issue and yet a serious debate on the issue is nowhere to be seen. Compare that with Britain. Look at how big an issue immigration is over there even though they have only a fraction of the number of immigrants that we're getting each year.

It could be that we have the most liberal and enlightened politicians in Europe but I don't think so. I think there's something else involved.

djpbarry wrote:

The man puts his rantings in column-form in a national newspaper and he is also a regular on Irish television (he has appeared on The Late, Late Show and Questions & Answers, among other programmes) discussing the subject. I'm not sure what else he wants; an audience with the UN?

Kevin Myers had a high profile in the media long before he was known for his politically incorrect views on immigration or Africa. The reason he has maintained such a high profile despite his politically-incorrect views is because of his talent as a writer and because he has the courage to say the kinds of things that most people agree with but would never dare say publicly.

Kevin Myers is a national treasure and deserves all the exposure he can get. If I had my way I'd make sure he had his own hour long programme at eight every night with another hour at ten for all the post-watershed material. I'm glad that I have an intellectual giant like him on my side of the debate. The other side are intellectual pygmies in comparison.

djpbarry wrote:

In a manner of speaking, they were. They were of the opinion that Myers was inciting hatred and so they acted accordingly. It is highly unlikely that anything will come of their complaint and I'm sure even they know that.

If they thought he was inciting hatred then why wouldn't they expect anything to come of their complaint?

djpbarry wrote:

However, due to the publicity generated by their actions, a very large number of people are now aware of their collective opinion on the issue.

And a very large number of people in the public eye are also aware that they risk being reported to the police if they dare to express politically-incorrect views about Africa. I wonder if that was a factor in the ICI's decision?

Might this possibly be a reason why our politicians are so fearful of discussing these kinds of issues openly? Is it possible that some of them fear being reported to the police by one of these multiculturalism-is-brilliant groups?

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

Is it absolute nonsense or is there not an element of truth to it? Why hasn't there been a single serious debate in Dail Eireann in the last five years?

Well now, that depends on what you define as a "serious debate on immigration"; do you just want to see TD's complain about immigration in the Dáil?

O'Morris wrote: »

The reason he has maintained such a high profile despite his politically-incorrect views is because...

...he is a sensationalist and he sells newspapers. Simple.

O'Morris wrote: »

If they thought he was inciting hatred then why wouldn't they expect anything to come of their complaint?

Like I said, it's worth the publicity.

O'Morris wrote: »

And a very large number of people in the public eye are also aware that they risk being reported to the police if they dare to express politically-incorrect views about Africa.

So? Anyone can be reported to the police for anything at all - doesn't mean anything will come of it. You could report me to the Gardaí right now if you wanted; nothing would come of it, but you could still report me. I would imagine Myers is absolutely delighted that the ICI reacted as they did - it gave him more ****e with which to fill his column inches.

O'Morris wrote: »

Might this possibly be a reason why our politicians are so fearful of discussing these kinds of issues openly?

Why don't you contact your local TD's and find out?

dsmythy

The second article if anyone would like to read. He will be writing again tomorrow in The Independent seemingly about people who may be unhappy about his writings. This one was less emotive and more statistical but has the same reasoning and makes a lot of sense. He should probably stick to that formula in future.

Zombrex

O'Morris wrote: »

Is it absolute nonsense or is there not an element of truth to it? Why hasn't there been a single serious debate in Dail Eireann in the last five years?

Type

"immigration site:historical-debates.oireachtas.ie"

into Google ... there are 4,270 responses.

Zambia

Wicknight wrote: »

Type

"immigration site:historical-debates.oireachtas.ie"

into Google ... there are 4,270 responses.

I dont doubt the ability of The oireachtas to talk about the issue.

However thats OT

Myers opinion is not that hard to believe the fact the thread exists means it generated interest which is what a paper does to increase sales.

But what he says is blatantly true if everyone in the world rose to an Irish / western standard of living. There will not be enough to go around and we are going to have to fight for the resources remining unless we drastically change the way we live. At present we cannot agree what way that will be.

Chinese people recently increased there beef consumption (beef grazing uses more land than vegatable consumption) result. coupled with bio-fuel production (they also started to drive more) and other factors drought etc. We have a food "crisis".

If there was a species higher in the pecking order than ourselves we would be due a cull very shortly. :eek:

Bottle_of_Smoke

Was what he said really all that bad?

Seems pretty true to me. I suppose emergency aid is given on the premise that life will be better when the kids get older. However, a lot of Africans in many parts of the continent have it in their culture to have as many kids as possible. This means they have lots of kids to look after them. Us giving them aid is in a way encouraging this culture.

I mean the way things are going, does anyone see the state of Africa improving?

Mr. Greasy Till

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Was what he said really all that bad?

Seems pretty true to me. I suppose emergency aid is given on the premise that life will be better when the kids get older. However, a lot of Africans in many parts of the continent have it in their culture to have as many kids as possible. This means they have lots of kids to look after them. Us giving them aid is in a way encouraging this culture.

I mean the way things are going, does anyone see the state of Africa improving?

Fine. No more aid from the West. They can't even pay their debts and never will! The West has done its best. Maybe stop selling arms to them too. Actually, the west should completely disengage. No more raw materials from Africa at all. Leave them to it. I'm sure we'll be fine without them ...right?

Here's some old news:

http://www.sundayindependent.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=2554651&fSectionId=1041

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/jun/12/uk.hearafrica05

Still relevant?

darkman2

Myers does have a point about population. This will inevitably require some sort of control. Unfortunately whilst it may seem inhumane the harsh reality is that he is absolutely right that birth rates are completely out of control and the vast vast majority are being born into huge poverty that we just cant stop. I agree with him also that we should not be giving so much aid to these countries now. It has not worked and it wont work.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Mr. Greasy Till wrote: »

Fine. No more aid from the West. They can't even pay their debts and never will! The West has done its best. Maybe stop selling arms to them too. Actually, the west should completely disengage. No more raw materials from Africa at all. Leave them to it. I'm sure we'll be fine without them ...right?

Here's some old news:

http://www.sundayindependent.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=2554651&fSectionId=1041

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/jun/12/uk.hearafrica05

Still relevant?

I don't see how this contradicts what I said. What do you mean?

santry_goonshow

Kevin Myers is taking the pi$$.

He comes over here and refuses to integrate into our society. He's had his begging bowl out for 30 years now insisting we charitably buy the Irish Indo to subvent his inefficient lifestyle in a mansion in Kildare. He carries on with his obsession and newspaper article writing, and were the citizens of this country ever asked about whether they agreed to this activity? No, they were not. He refuses to give up his ways and respect our laws. He is behaving in ways that are ungrateful. He is probably carrying out immoral acts even as we speak, maybe with one of our daughters and the prison population is overflowing with Myerses all hell-bent on doing-down OUR democracy... And when anyone complains he plays the race card on them. Before we know it we'll be flooded with Myrseses, millions of the grey mulleted little baastids keeping school places from our children.

There you are Kevin, how do YOU like it?

Camac Hibs

santry_goonshow wrote: »

Kevin Myers is taking the pi$$.

He comes over here and refuses to integrate into our society. He's had his begging bowl out for 30 years now insisting we charitably buy the Irish Indo to subvent his inefficient lifestyle in a mansion in Kildare. He carries on with his obsession and newspaper article writing, and were the citizens of this country ever asked about whether they agreed to this activity? No, they were not. He refuses to give up his ways and respect our laws. He is behaving in ways that are ungrateful. He is probably carrying out immoral acts even as we speak, maybe with one of our daughters and the prison population is overflowing with Myerses all hell-bent on doing-down OUR democracy... And when anyone complains he plays the race card on them. Before we know it we'll be flooded with Myrseses, millions of the grey mulleted little baastids keeping school places from our children.

There you are Kevin, how do YOU like it?

Excellent work

g5fd6ow0hseima

oscarBravo wrote: »

I didn't know we were at war in Afghanistan. So much for neutrality.

He sure does like throwing his lot in with the Brits

ChocolateSauce

Shame on everyone who has said he shouldn't be allowed to say what he does. If they don't agree with it, fight him back with words, not with laws. Punishing him for something he said is the first step towards fascism, because freedom of speech is always the first thing to go.

VH

I thought it was a good article - basically saying a lot of African states are basket cases and by us aiding them they've turned into bigger basket cases.

This country is obsessed with being PC, so we can't say anything negative about Africa or Africans in general without it being construed as racist.

Ball_of_Sex

Kevin Myers is a Klauss!!

If you you are an ultra PC KnobFace than just don't read his articles or listen to him on newstalk. Colm and Jim Jim will be more than happy to take you on.

sceptre

Don't drag up a year-old thread just to throw in a sentence that adds little to the universe please.