Anyone else looking really forward to the Lee fight this weekend?

Running Bing

Really exciting stuff.


Lee is by far the best prospect this country has imo, reminds me of Tommy Hearns. I think he has the raw materials and with manny's coaching I really think he can make some kind of a mark at the world level.


Really surprised at his loss last time out but I think he approached the fight all wrong and completely fought the wrong fight. He easily beats Vera in a rematch for me.

This is an intriguing match though...certainly not the usual post defeat match up that we are used to seeing Irish fighters take of late:rolleyes:


Should be a real challenge for him and for once I will actually be excited about and interest in a match up because the result will not be a forgone conclusion. If Lee comes through it well it will give him a big boost.

nacho libre

It will be interesting to see has he learned from his mistakes. if he has i expect him to win in a convincing manner.

Chicky

Woohoo I'm looking forward to it big time.

Interesting opponent, Cibbs will be sticky and won't make it easy, remember he's on the back of two defeats so he's gonna have his tail (or gladiator style skirt!) up

Think Lee will have learned from the Vera brawl. Like Nacho Libre said I hope he has learned from it. Although listening to some interviews he has given of late, he SAYS he has - we'll find out sometime after 11 on Saturday I guess ....

Looking forward to some of the undercard matches too. Is the card per boxrec's schedule? If it is Jamie Power is on 2nd - pittywas hoping it would be on a bit later to get a few of the local crowd in for it

walshb

Couple of things: Lee is talented, no doubt; but I think he is too one dimensional and
cumbersome to be a threat at world level. I just do not see other gears in his repertoire. He has good shots, decent chin, suspect stamina and very average footwork.

Now, the Vera fight was a disgrace on his handlers part. Lee was giving away unnecessary weight to a dangerous fighter and this is the sole reason he lost.

Whether or NOT he avenges this loss has to do with what weight the fighters weigh.
Should Lee's camp again let Lee enter the bout weighing as a middle against Vera as
a SM, then NO, Lee probably will mot avenge the defeat. However, should Lee's camp do the right thing this time and make sure Vera and Lee are in the same division, then YES, Lee has a very good chance

BTW, what channel is showing the bout and what time?

Big Ears

Chicky wrote: »

Woohoo I'm looking forward to it big time.

Interesting opponent, Cibbs will be sticky and won't make it easy, remember he's on the back of two defeats so he's gonna have his tail (or gladiator style skirt!) up

Think Lee will have learned from the Vera brawl. Like Nacho Libre said I hope he has learned from it. Although listening to some interviews he has given of late, he SAYS he has - we'll find out sometime after 11 on Saturday I guess ....

Looking forward to some of the undercard matches too. Is the card per boxrec's schedule? If it is Jamie Power is on 2nd - pittywas hoping it would be on a bit later to get a few of the local crowd in for it

If the card is by boxrecs schedule it will be purely by coincidence, they don't even have a lot of the main cards in the right order .

This is only Power's second fight so he will be low down the card no matter what .

Chicky

Big Ears wrote: »

If the card is by boxrecs schedule it will be purely by coincidence, they don't even have a lot of the main cards in the right order .

This is only Power's second fight so he will be low down the card no matter what .

no matter what eh? They were trying to get it higher up the bill basically being a home venue though

joepenguin

Suppose there will always be the possibility of it being on before one of the headline bouts or even after the Lee fight?

Chicky

Hopefully, good to have a bit of support even if its only a 4 rounder. Ah defo won;t be on after - main one is late enough as it is

Big Ears

Chicky wrote: »

no matter what eh? They were trying to get it higher up the bill basically being a home venue though

Unless it's on last I can't see it being on after Lee, McCloskey or Haughian and it would be a bit odd to have it after McKay or O'Donnell aswell .
Although maybe they feel they can fit the fight in between the end of McCloskey's fight and the analysis of that and pre fight analysis of Lee's fight .
They're restricted by the tv schedule though .

I'd expect him to be on after Cresham and McGuinness though .

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

Couple of things: Lee is talented, no doubt; but I think he is too one dimensional and
cumbersome to be a threat at world level. I just do not see other gears in his repertoire. He has good shots, decent chin, suspect stamina and very average footwork.

Now, the Vera fight was a disgrace on his handlers part. Lee was giving away unnecessary weight to a dangerous fighter and this is the sole reason he lost.

Whether or NOT he avenges this loss has to do with what weight the fighters weigh.
Should Lee's camp again let Lee enter the bout weighing as a middle against Vera as
a SM, then NO, Lee probably will mot avenge the defeat. However, should Lee's camp do the right thing this time and make sure Vera and Lee are in the same division, then YES, Lee has a very good chance

BTW, what channel is showing the bout and what time?

he lost because he was unable to fight on the inside. perhaps that was partially to do with the weight difference but i've noticed this weakness in previous fights. it's why if Duddy And Lee fought, i'd actually favour Duddy to win even though Lee is the more talented boxer

Hero Of College

walshb wrote: »

Couple of things: Lee is talented, no doubt; but I think he is too one dimensional and
cumbersome to be a threat at world level. I just do not see other gears in his repertoire. He has good shots, decent chin, suspect stamina and very average footwork.

Now, the Vera fight was a disgrace on his handlers part. Lee was giving away unnecessary weight to a dangerous fighter and this is the sole reason he lost.

/quote]

Thats one way of looking at it. Paul Williams will be taking an absolutely huge risk fighting Pavlik too. He will NEVER EVER get back to 147 if the takes the Pavlik fight and may well find himself in a no-mans-land if he loses.

But if he wins.........:cool::cool:

Had Lee won, he would have been fast-tracked to a title shot.

I think he just needed to come into the fight a little sharper and he could have had a really really useful win.

They took a risk and it didn't pan out.

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Couple of things: Lee is talented, no doubt; but I think he is too one dimensional and
cumbersome to be a threat at world level. I just do not see other gears in his repertoire. He has good shots, decent chin, suspect stamina and very average footwork.

Now, the Vera fight was a disgrace on his handlers part. Lee was giving away unnecessary weight to a dangerous fighter and this is the sole reason he lost.

Whether or NOT he avenges this loss has to do with what weight the fighters weigh.
Should Lee's camp again let Lee enter the bout weighing as a middle against Vera as
a SM, then NO, Lee probably will mot avenge the defeat. However, should Lee's camp do the right thing this time and make sure Vera and Lee are in the same division, then YES, Lee has a very good chance

BTW, what channel is showing the bout and what time?

Fights are made at catchweights all the time, this one was made 2 lbs above the Middleweight limit(not exactly a huge amount), however Lee himself exaggerated the weight difference by coming in 2 lbs lighter than the Middleweight limit . Vera was technically a Super-Middleweight for that fight but he was nearly half a stone away from what he would have been allow way had it been an actual Super-Middleweight fight . There was nothing strange about the weight, things like that are commonplace .

It was Lee's inability to fight on the inside, and his inability to tie up that lost him that fight . Even without those two qualities if he just boxed smarter he would of won .

If Andy Lee can't beat a 162 lb Brian Vera in a rematch, then he'll never even be close to a contender at Middeweight and he'll never win a European title at Middleweight . It's that simple .

This is on RTÉ btw

Hero Of College

Babybing wrote: »

Lee is by far the best prospect this country has imo, reminds me of Tommy Hearns. I think he has the raw materials and with manny's coaching I really think he can make some kind of a mark at the world level.


Really surprised at his loss last time out but I think he approached the fight all wrong and completely fought the wrong fight. He easily beats Vera in a rematch for me.

This is an intriguing match though...certainly not the usual post defeat match up that we are used to seeing Irish fighters take of late:rolleyes:

Why do people say so and so reminds me of so-and-so

Here are some of the examples:

Paul Dempsey:
"Sam Peter is the new Ray Mercer."
Funnier than that, he was George Foreman, before Klitschko beat him.


ITV/BBC/Setanta/Everybody: "Amir Khan is the new Naseem Hamed."

He is? A 5'10" orthodox lightweight with the frame of a middlweight from Bolton via Pakistan reminds you all of a southpaw bat-eared midget from Sheffield via The Yemen? Really?? I see no resemblance.


If Lee is the next anybody Lee is the next Paul Williams. Just like Williams, he will beat Vera next time out, if Vera can come off his high horse and stop demanding silly money. In that regard, Vera is the next Roy Jones:cool:

And yes...this is a real hard matchup compared to the trash Dunne fought. In fairness to Manny and Kronk, their fighters fight hard comebacks. Wlad took DaVarryl Williamson and Peter after Brewster I, and it wasn't long before Kermit Cintron was back in against Margarito.

Running Bing

Hero Of College wrote: »

Why do people say so and so reminds me of so-and-so

Here are some of the examples:

Paul Dempsey:
"Sam Peter is the new Ray Mercer."
Funnier than that, he was George Foreman, before Klitschko beat him.


ITV/BBC/Setanta/Everybody: "Amir Khan is the new Naseem Hamed."

He is? A 5'10" orthodox lightweight with the frame of a middlweight from Bolton via Pakistan reminds you all of a southpaw bat-eared midget from Sheffield via The Yemen? Really?? I see no resemblance.


If Lee is the next anybody Lee is the next Paul Williams. Just like Williams, he will beat Vera next time out, if Vera can come off his high horse and stop demanding silly money. In that regard, Vera is the next Roy Jones:cool:

And yes...this is a real hard matchup compared to the trash Dunne fought. In fairness to Manny and Kronk, their fighters fight hard comebacks. Wlad took DaVarryl Williamson and Peter after Brewster I, and it wasn't long before Kermit Cintron was back in against Margarito.

Because so-and-so reminds them of so-and-so?

Hero Of College

Babybing wrote: »

Because so-and-so reminds them of so-and-so?

Yeah, but how. In that he has two arms too??

walshb

Ok, the weight wasn't the only reason, but all the other things are affected when weight plays a part. Bottom line is, Lee was a middle fighting a SM, so it's ridiculous to say that this had no bearing on the fight. I know for a fact it did. It's common sense. Vera may well have been 7-10 lbs heavier come fight night. One man was a middle and the other a SM, if it had no affect, why bother creating weights, and believe me, in PRO boxing, every ounce makes a difference.

AS for his in fighting?

Lee was doing perfectly from distance. He was just caught with heavy shots and was
badly wobbled. Shots from a heavier and stronger man!!!

DiscoHugh

I'm always suspicious when a fighter gets ko'd discounts it as a fluke and then doesn't do there utmost to get a rematch. :rolleyes:

If the fight was a fluke. Proove it. Simple as.
I give JT respect for immediately rematching Pavlik in the wake of a devastating ko defeat.

Big Ears

DiscoHugh wrote: »

I'm always suspicious when a fighter gets ko'd discounts it as a fluke and then doesn't do there utmost to get a rematch. :rolleyes:

If the fight was a fluke. Proove it. Simple as.
I give JT respect for immediately rematching Pavlik in the wake of a devastating ko defeat.

Andy didn't say it was a fluke, he said he fought stupid and the better man on the night won . His team have offered ridiculously high purses(the same purse Gary Lockett got for fighting Pavlik) but Vera's have rejected .

Vera's team is ducking a rematch, so unless you're not actually talking about Andy Lee then what are you talking about ?

DiscoHugh

Big Ears wrote: »

Andy didn't say it was a fluke, he said he fought stupid and the better man on the night won . His team have offered ridiculously high purses(the same purse Gary Lockett got for fighting Pavlik) but Vera's have rejected .

Vera's team is ducking a rematch, so unless you're not actually talking about Andy Lee then what are you talking about ?

I was just speaking in general. But I may as well mention another of my little suspicions....when they talk of one party rejecting another's great offer etc.

Nobody outside knows for sure what goes on in these negotiations. Maybe they are ducking but there could be unfavourable terms,conditions etc. you never know.

f1dan

Did anybody here go to the public workouts in Limerick today?

Big Ears

DiscoHugh wrote: »

I was just speaking in general. But I may as well mention another of my little suspicions....when they talk of one party rejecting another's great offer etc.

Nobody outside knows for sure what goes on in these negotiations. Maybe they are ducking but there could be unfavourable terms,conditions etc. you never know.

I doubt Lee's team would want options on Vera, and although there are other things you can do with offers to make them less kind than they look I don't think Steward is the type . I think they just want that defeat avenged as quick as possible and Vera's team knows that if Lee does beat him in a return his stock will be lower than before the Lee fight(unless it's close) .

DiscoHugh

Big Ears wrote: »

I doubt Lee's team would want options on Vera, and although there are other things you can do with offers to make them less kind than they look I don't think Steward is the type . I think they just want that defeat avenged as quick as possible and Vera's team knows that if Lee does beat him in a return his stock will be lower than before the Lee fight(unless it's close) .

I would just think that the rational thing to do would be to cash in on a rematch. Lets face it. He's not going to get a title shot out of it so what else is there? Then again boxers and their handlers are not exactly known to be the most rational folk around so you may be right.

joepenguin

I dont think Lee would want a rematch to cash in, more to re-confirm that he is a top prospect who had a bad night and is levels above this. This would add credability to him and make people forget that loss very quickly.

Back to the original topic, yeah really looking forward to seeing him fight Gibbs, plus the undercard looks good. Cant wait

Chicky

joepenguin wrote: »

I dont think Lee would want a rematch to cash in, more to re-confirm that he is a top prospect who had a bad night and is levels above this. This would add credability to him and make people forget that loss very quickly.

Back to the original topic, yeah really looking forward to seeing him fight Gibbs, plus the undercard looks good. Cant wait

Spot on , its more of a psychological thing, more of a case of getting the monkey off his back as he knows he has the beatings of Vera.

Bid Gibbs the time of day the other day man he's ripped to the last ... a lot shorter than I expected. Though he was around 6foot but hes shorter than that.

Big Ears

Chicky wrote: »

Spot on , its more of a psychological thing, more of a case of getting the monkey off his back as he knows he has the beatings of Vera.

Bid Gibbs the time of day the other day man he's ripped to the last ... a lot shorter than I expected. Though he was around 6foot but hes shorter than that.

lol is that promo picture taken where I think it is ?

Chicky

Big Ears wrote: »

lol is that promo picture taken where I think it is ?

LOL I have a better one from the other angle if u prefer

joepenguin

So what about Gibbs? we have a fairly good idea where Lee is in his career.
Gibbs is coming off 2 losses, the most recent of which was 1 round KO 15 months ago.
Does he have a win over anyone in Lees class? By the looks of things Lee doesnt have a win over someone of the gladiators caliber.
Makes for an interesting one

walshb

I see Bernard and me are on the same lines regarding Andy's loss to Vera.
Bernard said exactly what I said and mentioned Lee giving away 4 lbs at weigh
in to Vera, when the fight was AGREED at MW (160). Bernard also saw what I saw on fight night; a bigger man in Vera, who may have weighed 7-10 lbs heavier. Great observation Bernard:)

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

I see Bernard and me are on the same lines regarding Andy's loss to Vera.
Bernard said exactly what I said and mentioned Lee giving away 4 lbs at weigh
in to Vera, when the fight was AGREED at MW (160). Bernard also saw what I saw on fight night; a bigger man in Vera, who may have weighed 7-10 lbs heavier. Great observation Bernard:)

Dunne said Andy should have come in at 160 , and then said which is what the fight was made at............which is incorrect . Yes Andy should of come in at 160 but the bout was made at a catchweight and Vera was not over the limit .

Vera can actually make Middleweight without too much trouble if he needs to, Abraham and Pavlik are bigger Middleweights than him(as were Miranda and Taylor) .

Paul McCloskey's fight was made at 142 against Nigel Wright, no one has said a word about that .

joepenguin

How does that affect rankings? using McLoskey as an example. the fight was above light welter where he wants to move up in ther rankings. Does fighting over it mean he gets classed as a welter? even thought its ony 2 pounds.

Doubt Vera will get such a high figure (whatever it was a few weeks ago) to fight Lee now, or if Lee would even bother. Vera would probably still be entitled to a slightly higher share of the purse. Lee's proposed date of 08-08-08 has been scrapped according to boxrec. probably due to the cuts.

Big Ears

joepenguin wrote: »

How does that affect rankings? using McLoskey as an example. the fight was above light welter where he wants to move up in ther rankings. Does fighting over it mean he gets classed as a welter? even thought its ony 2 pounds.

Doubt Vera will get such a high figure (whatever it was a few weeks ago) to fight Lee now, or if Lee would even bother. Vera would probably still be entitled to a slightly higher share of the purse. Lee's proposed date of 08-08-08 has been scrapped according to boxrec. probably due to the cuts.

The EBU/BBBofC will treat it like it was a Light-Welterweight fight, as I have said catchweight fights are commonplace when no title is involved so when fights are made just above title weight they are treated as if they're fighting at that weight .

McCloskey is now ranked #30 at Light-Welterweight by the IBO's Independent(computerised) rankings .


Against Bazan, McCloskey was 141 1/2, against Garnica he was 142 1/2 . Infact the only time McCloskey has been under the Light-Welterweight limit is when he had a title on the line against Tonchev .

joepenguin

Cheers, just had a look at boxrec. They had him at 40 give or take 1 or 2 and now have him at 20. Wright was ranked 1 below him before the fight and is now at 57.

Big Ears

joepenguin wrote: »

Cheers, just had a look at boxrec. They had him at 40 give or take 1 or 2 and now have him at 20. Wright was ranked 1 below him before the fight and is now at 57.

Boxrecs computerized rankings are a bit flawed nowdays, they try to be predictive of future fights rather than ranking accomplishments(or at least that's what the guy that makes the formula says) and that seems to be the case .

You can't trust computerized rankings completely for various reasons but I think the IBO do a good job .

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

Dunne said Andy should have come in at 160 , and then said which is what the fight was made at............which is incorrect . Yes Andy should of come in at 160 but the bout was made at a catchweight and Vera was not over the limit .

Vera can actually make Middleweight without too much trouble if he needs to, Abraham and Pavlik are bigger Middleweights than him(as were Miranda and Taylor) .

Paul McCloskey's fight was made at 142 against Nigel Wright, no one has said a word about that .

So let me get this straight, Dunne is wrong is he?

Catch weight?

What weight was the fight agreed at?

Simple question.

AS far as I recall, Dunne did NOT say what Andy should have
came in at. All he said was that Andy weighed 158 to Vera's 162 and that
the agreed weight was MW. He also mentioned Vera looking considerably
bigger on fight night, which is exactly what I saw.

Bottom line is not what the weights should have been, it is the fact that
Lee's camp allowed their man give away 4 lbs completely unnecessarily.

If they agreed to a catch weight, then IMO, Lee was badly handled!

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

So let me get this straight, Dunne is wrong is he?

Catch weight?

What weight was the fight agreed at?

Simple question.

AS far as I recall, Dunne did NOT say what Andy should have
came in at. All he said was that Andy weighed 158 to Vera's 162 and that
the agreed weight was MW. He also mentioned Vera looking considerably
bigger on fight night, which is exactly what I saw.

Bottom line is not what the weights should have been, it is the fact that
Lee's camp allowed their man give away 4 lbs completely unnecessarily.

If they agreed to a catch weight, then IMO, Lee was badly handled!

It was agreed for a minimum of 162 lbs anyway as no source for the weigh in weights mentioned either fighter being overweight and a couple said all the fighters on the card made weight .

Dunne did indeed say Andy should of come in at 160, which is what Dunne thought the fight was made at .

Is McCloskey badly handled ?, afterall nearly all of his bouts(all except one) have been at a catchweight .

Lee was fighting a man bigger than him, but Lee's camp didn't mind doing this as Vera is useless . Camps that don't like to baby their fighters often test them with bigger less talented men when bringing their fighter up(John Murray is an example) .

The different in talent should of been enough to overcome any weight differential, but Lee messed up . Lets keep in mind here than Vera is able to make Middleweight anyway and I'll point out once again that Abraham and Pavlik are bigger men than Vera . There was nothing wrong or unusual about having a fight at 162 lbs against Brian Vera . There was something wrong about coming in at 158 though, there was no reason to be that light .

walshb

So Vera is useless?

What does this make Lee?

Difference in talent?

Vera TKO'd Lee. It is obvious the talent lies with Vera.

Andy didn't do too much wrong in the bout. He simply was
beaten by a bigger and stronger man and you insist that the weight
was pretty much a non factor. You are well off. Dunne hit the
nail on the head and he did so because he is a boxer and knows
that at the top flight, every ounce, let alone lb can make a difference.

I dispute this catch weight theory and you are not certain that
162 lbs was the agreed MAX weight. But like I said, even if it
was, it was WRONG for Lee's camp to agree to this. You DO
not give away 4 lbs to any man, especially 4 lbs that eats into
another weight division.

A minimum 162 lbs?

By that reckoning, Vera could have weighed even heavier and the fight would have went ahead.

So basically from your POST, Lee's camp thought Lee was the talented one, Vera was useless and the extra weight would play no part. That's some crowd of wasters isn't it?

And they got rightly screwed!; poor Andy was the one who had to endure heavy
punishment in the process

You seem adamant that Dunne said Andy should have weighed in at 160lbs.
I could be wrong and he may well have said this, not that it makes
a blind bit of difference though. I am sure he did not say this

One final point:
Do you think if they were to meet again that it is OK and acceptable
for Lee to again give away 4 lbs or should Lee's camp
insist that the fight be made at a weight that both fighters make, like say MW?

Fall_Guy

walshb wrote: »

So Vera is useless?

What does this make Lee?

Difference in talent?

Vera TKO'd Lee. It is obvious the talent lies with Vera.

Andy didn't do too much wrong in the bout. He simply was
beaten by a bigger and stronger man and you insist that the weight
was pretty much a non factor. You are well off. Dunne hit the
nail on the head and he did so because he is a boxer and knows
that at the top flight, every ounce, let alone lb can make a difference.

I dispute this catch weight theory and you are not certain that
162 lbs was the agreed MAX weight. But like I said, even if it
was, it was WRONG for Lee's camp to agree to this. You DO
not give away 4 lbs to any man, especially 4 lbs that eats into
another weight division.

A minimum 162 lbs?

By that reckoning, Vera could have weighed even heavier and the fight would have went ahead.

So basically from your POST, Lee's camp thought Lee was the talented one, Vera was useless and the extra weight would play no part. That's some crowd of wasters isn't it?

And they got rightly screwed!; poor Andy was the one who had to endure heavy
punishment in the process

You seem adamant that Dunne said Andy should have weighed in at 160lbs.
I could be wrong and he may well have said this, not that it makes
a blind bit of difference though. I am sure he did not say this

One final point:
Do you think if they were to meet again that it is OK and acceptable
for Lee to again give away 4 lbs or should Lee's camp
insist that the fight be made at a weight that both fighters make, like say MW?

Manny said in an interview a few weeks ago that he felt in retrospect that he shouldn't have let the Vera fight go ahead, as andy had the flu in the lead up to the fight and this is why he came in underweight. Don't think it was a matter of disrespecting or underestimating the threat of his opponent, more just a case of not wanting to cancel the fight despite not being at 100%.

walshb

Well tell that to Big ears!!

If Andy had flu and came in under weight in a bout against a bigger and stronger man, then I have been proved right, Lee was badly handled and the bout should NOT have been staged at this catch weight.

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

So Vera is useless?

What does this make Lee?

Difference in talent?

Vera TKO'd Lee. It is obvious the talent lies with Vera.

Andy didn't do too much wrong in the bout. He simply was
beaten by a bigger and stronger man and you insist that the weight
was pretty much a non factor. You are well off. Dunne hit the
nail on the head and he did so because he is a boxer and knows
that at the top flight, every ounce, let alone lb can make a difference.

I dispute this catch weight theory and you are not certain that
162 lbs was the agreed MAX weight. But like I said, even if it
was, it was WRONG for Lee's camp to agree to this. You DO
not give away 4 lbs to any man, especially 4 lbs that eats into
another weight division.

A minimum 162 lbs?

By that reckoning, Vera could have weighed even heavier and the fight would have went ahead.

So basically from your POST, Lee's camp thought Lee was the talented one, Vera was useless and the extra weight would play no part. That's some crowd of wasters isn't it?

And they got rightly screwed!; poor Andy was the one who had to endure heavy
punishment in the process

You seem adamant that Dunne said Andy should have weighed in at 160lbs.
I could be wrong and he may well have said this, not that it makes
a blind bit of difference though. I am sure he did not say this

One final point:
Do you think if they were to meet again that it is OK and acceptable
for Lee to again give away 4 lbs or should Lee's camp
insist that the fight be made at a weight that both fighters make, like say MW?

A guy who lost to a fairly useless fighter, I've seen Vera several times and if you compare him to World level fighters he's crap . He'll be lucky to win a USBA/NABF/NABA/USBA title in his career unless he's gifted one like Tavoris Cloud was recently .

I don't think the weight was a non factor, of course it was a factor, however the point still stands that if you can't beat a 162 lb Brian Vera while you weigh anywhere between 2-4 lbs(more on fightnight obviously) less than him then you're going nowhere as far as World titles are considered .

Now if Andy did had flu that is a different story, but there was nothing wrong with the original match up .

Dunne did indeed say 'Andy should have come in at 160 lbs......which is what the fight was made at' .

Andy did plenty wrong in the fight, he got involved with a guy who's only chance to win was in a brawl . If he boxed Vera from the outside it would have been an easy victory .

Ideally if a rematch was to happen they would make it at 160, but I'd have no problem with Andy fighting Vera while he's 160 and Vera is 162 . If he can't beat Brian Vera even with the weight disparity he's not going to beat Pavlik, he's not going to beat Abraham and he probably won't even beat Sturm .


You're right that he's been badly handled if they let him fight with Flu, but as I say again there was nothing wrong with the original match up .

However we do often hear stories of fighter being 'injured' or having 'flu' when they lose . Maybe Andy did have Flu, or maybe he just fought the wrong fight and got drawn into a brawl with a limited fighter who managed to get the better of Lee .

We wouldn't be having this argument if Lee had either boxed to the right gameplan or blown Vera away like he nearly did in the early rounds .

alanceltic

Big Ears wrote: »

We wouldn't be having this argument if Lee had either boxed to the right gameplan or blown Vera away like he nearly did in the early rounds .

Not really the point bigears, if the Vera was over the agreed weight at weigh in the fight should not have gone ahead, whatever about a boxer putting on extra weight after the weigh in thats unavoidable but to allow a fight go ahead when your opponent is heavier at the weigh in is "poor mgt".

You only have to look at McCullough turning down Martinez not so long ago, a fight he was likely to win easily (IMO) because of the weight differential and McCullough had to learn that lesson the hard way (HARRISON), so theres simply no excuses!!!

Big Ears

alanceltic wrote: »

Not really the point bigears, if the Vera was over the agreed weight at weigh in the fight should not have gone ahead, whatever about a boxer putting on extra weight after the weigh in thats unavoidable but to allow a fight go ahead when your opponent is heavier at the weigh in is "poor mgt".

You only have to look at McCullough turning down Martinez not so long ago, a fight he was likely to win easily (IMO) because of the weight differential and McCullough had to learn that lesson the hard way (HARRISON), so theres simply no excuses!!!

I would bet my left testicle against against a cent that Vera wasn't overweight .
There was no mention in any of the press(not one single place) of Vera being overweight . You would of heard about it if he was . Vera would of been fined and Lee's purse would of been increased and Vera would be closely monitored in his next couple of fights(in any of the decent states) , something like that would have gotten media coverage . Also some sites reporting all the fighters made weight would indicate that Vera was not overweight .

I don't know where people got the perception that Vera came in heavy, you'd swear catchweight fights were unusual .

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

Dunne did indeed say 'Andy should have come in at 160 lbs......which is what the fight was made at' .

What exactly are you trying to say here?

You say Vera wasn't over weight, yet the bout was made at 160?

If the bout was made at 160, then Vera was over the weight and the fight should NOT have happened. Lee came in 2 lbs under and Vera 2 lbs over.
It's plain and simple and you making out Vera was useless has ZERO
to do with the fact that Lee was asked to fight a man who really was in the SM division.

I agree that Vera is not WORLD class, but nor is Andy. The playing field was pretty level and Vera got the TKO, partly because he was the superior man, but also because he was physically bigger, stronger and heavier. You cannot get away from this

Alanceltic is hearing me. I'm surprised you aren't; and I'm surprised you are making up unnecessary excuses for absolute bad handling.

And if Vera was indeed USELESS, then even giving away weight Andy would have won.
I think Vera was avearge, with extra weight and strength come fight night. This is what
gave him victory!

Aaron M

walshb wrote: »

You say Vera wasn't over weight, yet the bout was made at 160?

I think Big Ears is saying that Dunne thought the fight was made at 160, but that Big Ears thinks it was at a slightly higher catchweight?

Or maybe I'm just reading things wrong?

Fall_Guy

walshb wrote: »

What exactly are you trying to say here?

You say Vera wasn't over weight, yet the bout was made at 160?

If the bout was made at 160, then Vera was over the weight and the fight should NOT have happened. Lee came in 2 lbs under and Vera 2 lbs over.

I think he's implying that Bernard was wrong in claiming that the fight was set for 160lbs. and that vera came in on the button while lee came in four lbs under the agreed weight.

I think it was a case of over-enthusiasm on a young fighters part more than anything. If he was sick it would explain why he struggled to keep weight on in the week leading up to the fight to ensure that he could hit the scales right on the button. And maybe with a 4lb weight differential the fight should have been called off. But I would guess that Andy being a hungry young fighter did everything he could to persuade his camp that he was good to go and didn't want the fight postponed/cancelled.

walshb

Ok, he implied that it was what Dunne thought. Grand with that.

I am not going to harp on anymore other than to say Lee should not have been
giving away weight at that stage in his career. I might understand if Lee was the next
Hagler or Hearns; but he is definitely NOT. It has been proved that he isn't even
in Vera's league.


All I ever said was that Andy's team let him down and badly underestimated Vera or badly overrated Andy?

Which was it fellas?

Fall_Guy

walshb wrote: »

All I ever said was that Andy's team let him down and badly underestimated Vera or badly overrated Andy?

Which was it fellas?

Probably a bit of both, to be honest!

HollowMan

How can you blab on saying "Vera beat him because he was bigger and stronger", "every ounce counts" etc (implying that Vera had a HUGE advantage), then say

"It has been proved that he isn't even
in Vera's league."

So which is it yourself?

Bear in mind that Lee was winning on the cards, fought a stupid game plan and gave away weight and couldn't tie up - which he since seems to have learned to do a lot better.

So would you say he IS in Vera's league? Because if you think it has been "proven" that he isn't, then you really know less about boxing than you have shown on here, which isn't a whole pile to be honest.

I think you need to respect other folks opinions and admit an odd time that you're talking through your hole.

walshb

HollowMan wrote: »

How can you blab on saying "Vera beat him because he was bigger and stronger", "every ounce counts" etc (implying that Vera had a HUGE advantage), then say

"It has been proved that he isn't even
in Vera's league."

So which is it yourself?

Bear in mind that Lee was winning on the cards, fought a stupid game plan and gave away weight and couldn't tie up - which he since seems to have learned to do a lot better.

So would you say he IS in Vera's league? Because if you think it has been "proven" that he isn't, then you really know less about boxing than you have shown on here, which isn't a whole pile to be honest.

I think you need to respect other folks opinions and admit an odd time that you're talking through your hole.

I respect all posters here and you should really watch your tone sir!!

It has been proved that Lee lost to Vera for a number of reasons. IMO, the main reason was the weight disparity. There was also the fact that Vera was decent, could bang, had stamina, had a decent chin and could fight on the inside. Who ever argued otherwise. Me and Big Ears simply disagree on the extent to which the extra weight hindered Lee. Do you have some problem with that mate?

So maybe you should read the posts a little closer before jumping in with both big feet and making an idiot of yourself!

I think this was your first bloody POST on this thread and it's in an
insulting manner, class act you are:rolleyes:

And for the record, I would bet on Vera to beat Lee again if they met at the same weight.
I think Vera is overall a better PRO fighter. I would be rooting for Andy, but not confident of a win

An fiiinnnalllly....Vera won the bloody bout by TKO, so as it stands today, VERA
is the better fighter. Nobody can get away from that fact!!

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

And for the record, I would bet on Vera to beat Lee again if they met at the same weight.
I think Vera is overall a better PRO fighter. I would be rooting for Andy, but not confident of a win

/QUOTE]

well, if that is how you see the rematch going, you surely must never see Lee being world champion. Vera is a nothing fighter compared to Sturm, Pavlik and Abraham.

Fall_Guy

I'd fancy lee in a rematch with vera to be honest. I thought he was looking pretty good for the first few rounds. Got dragged into a dogfight and lost, i think he'd fight a smarter fight next time.

I don't think a loss to another fighter nessecarily makes that fighter better than the other automatically (especially a questionable ref stoppage). I mean, it's not as if he lost ten rounds to none on the scorecard or was outclassed or anything like that.

I'd be pretty confident of a Lee victory is they were to fight again, style mismatch or not.

Big Ears

nacho libre wrote: »

walshb wrote: »

And for the record, I would bet on Vera to beat Lee again if they met at the same weight.
I think Vera is overall a better PRO fighter. I would be rooting for Andy, but not confident of a win

/QUOTE]

well, if that is how you see the rematch going, you surely must never see Lee being world champion. Vera is a nothing fighter compared to Sturm, Pavlik and Abraham.

Vera is nothing compared to Sylvester, Castillejo, Asikainen, Gevor, Duddy and Joval . He's not up to the likes of Lockett or Elcock either .

Even the European title is several steps ahead of Brian Vera .


'I think he's implying that Bernard was wrong in claiming that the fight was set for 160lbs'

Correct.


Walshb I think where we actually differ is not the weight(I do believe it was a significant issue) but that Lee fought the wrong fight , and the level Brian vera is at .

I watched some of the first few rounds(the better ones for Lee) on youtube this morning and his right hand was so low it was astonishing . He was basically leaving his chin hanging out and all Vera had to do to hit it was close the distance quickly . If there's one thing Vera can do it's close distance very quickly........he doesn't do it particularly well because he leaves himself very open but he does do it .

That low guard is something Lee fixed against Gibbs, keeping his right high at all times and using it similar to the way Wlad uses his pawing jab .

I think Lee would ko an 162 lb Vera in a rematch, he'd approach the fight better(he claims he had gotten complacent last time) and he'd definitely box a lot smarter .