would a reduction in the current minimum wage put current workers at risk?

easyontheeye

hi,

I hope this doesn't happen but if the government were reduce the minimum wage would it just give companies an incentive let people go so that they can hire employees on the lower rate? Would there be protection against that?

minxie

at the moment i dont think there is any legislation on stopping this....

easyontheeye

minxie1 wrote: »

at the moment i dont think there is any legislation on stopping this....

stoping the introduction of the minimum wage or the letting go of current staff to replace with cheaper ones?

minxie

letting go of current staff if im honest. cheaper labour or pull out all together, which would be worse

easyontheeye

could you even survive in this country if the minimum wage was reduced by 1 euro given the cost of living that we have. To be fair we are all responsible for the high cost of living here. But i dont see that coming down anytime soon. if that happens it will certainly be the end to immigrants from eastern Europe.

minxie

easyontheeye wrote: »

could you even survive in this country if the minimum wage was reduced by 1 euro given the cost of living that we have. To be fair we are all responsible for the high cost of living here. But i dont see that coming down anytime soon. if that happens it will certainly be the end to immigrants from eastern Europe.

i can barely survive as it is, rip off ireland is alive and well am afraid....
as for a decline in immigrants i tend to dissagree, i read in some paper this week about some kind of immigrant (happy days) sort of brown envelope type incentive when they are "nabbed" by the gov, that instead of getting deported they will get a certain amount of ""GOODBYE MONEY""" and be asked to leave the country, maybe am wrong on some aspects but am sure you get my drift:rolleyes:

Oafley Jones

It would be political suicide for the government to reduce the minimum wage.

Newaglish

They could let somebody go to be replaced with cheaper staff, provided the current staff member has worked there for less than a year.

If the person has been employed for greater than one year, I'm fairly certain it would constitute an unfair dismissal. Similarly, they couldn't make the person redundant as they would be hiring another person to replace them.

It's arbitrary really as no government will ever reduce the minimum wage

the_syco

easyontheeye wrote: »

could you even survive in this country if the minimum wage was reduced by 1 euro given the cost of living that we have. To be fair we are all responsible for the high cost of living here. But i dont see that coming down anytime soon. if that happens it will certainly be the end to immigrants from eastern Europe.

Minimum wage = €16,000 a year. Take a euro off the min wage, and that goes down to around the €13,000 mark, which, in Ireland, wouldn't be livable, as you'd barly afford rent.

How Strange

If this happens every PAYE employee in the country should get out on the streets and protest. This affects everyone and could really be only the start in the race to the bottom that we've heard so much about.

If the minimum wage is decreased then wages in general will decrease.

IMO, the government should introduce a tax band for people earning over €100k and not penalise the most vulnerable.

sharper

How Strange wrote: »

IMO, the government should introduce a tax band for people earning over €100k and not penalise the most vulnerable.

How will a new tax band make it cheaper to run a business?

shoegirl

You have to remember that people on the minimum wage compare their incomes to social welfare. At the moment there is already a quite fine line between the level of income replacement for those on welfare, and those on the dole. For a private tenant getting max rent supplement, this can be as little as 20 or 30 euros.

To reduce the bottom level of wages to an even lower level would provide an incentive for workers in the situation above to not work. It would also provide a strong disincentive for anybody already on welfare to stay there: they must be guaranteed a better rate.

The other thought is that it could initiate a "race to the bottom" in Europe where employers start toppling minimum wage agreements. Once this is exhausted the only option left would to be to start to reduce welfare payments in order to force recipients into work (already done in the UK, where the basic adult rate is a mere 53 pounds a week). I don't think this is a drection I'd like to see the country start to go. The unintended consequences, rightly pointed out, would be to reduce the spending power of those nearest the bottom, which would only further cripple the economy.

How Strange

sharper wrote: »

How will a new tax band make it cheaper to run a business?

How about a 10% cut in salaries for all top managers in all businesses?

I personally think this is disgusting, taking money from the poorest and most vulnerable people in society. I've survived on minimum wage before and I use the word survived quite literally.

I don't care how businesses cut their running cost but it should never be at the expense of those at the bottom.

Another thing, this will be only the start of the cuts because gradually salaries will be subjected to cutbacks under the same banner of 'reducing running costs'. Let the cutbacks start at the top and only affect those at the bottom as an absolute last resort.

Corruptedmorals

Yes it would put them at risk. Currently, people who are in my job longer and therefore getting a good bit more than the starting wage (slightly above minimum) are getting less hours, and few Sundays because that's time and a half, and new people are getting more hours in their place. I'm sure there's plenty other companies who would jump to lower the wage and give more hours to those on it to the detriment of loyal staff.

311

If they cut the minimum wage ,inflation would have to rise. Because instead of 4 people sharing a house ,7 people would share a house and mortgages wouldn't get paid :eek:

shoegirl

shoegirl wrote: »

You have to remember that people on the minimum wage compare their incomes to social welfare.

Where I work at the moment,hours are being slashed left right and centre. Some people on part time contract are down to 15 hours a week from their usual 37. They would probably be making more money on the dole ffs.

Newaglish

311 wrote: »

If they cut the minimum wage ,inflation would have to rise. Because instead of 4 people sharing a house ,7 people would share a house and mortgages wouldn't get paid :eek:

Either that's not explained very well or it's absolute nonsense?

How would a reduction in the demand for houses cause inflation?!

311

Newaglish wrote: »

Either that's not explained very well or it's absolute nonsense?

How would a reduction in the demand for houses cause inflation?!

If there are 100,00 houses for rent now ,with 60,000 people renting.

Then only 70,000 houses are rented by the 60,000 . Who pays the rent on the 30,000 ? Inflation does.

sharper

How Strange wrote: »

How about a 10% cut in salaries for all top managers in all businesses?

How would you propose to enforce such a thing? Incidentally nobody has proposed a wage cut for anyone.

I personally think this is disgusting, taking money from the poorest and most vulnerable people in society. I've survived on minimum wage before and I use the word survived quite literally.

The poorest and most vulnerable people in society are the old, sick, disabled, mentally ill and so on not minimum wage workers. It's not logical to associate the minimum wage with someone trying to live exclusively on it, a lot (most?) minimum wage jobs are part time/student/temporary jobs and not anything anyone should be trying to make a living off.

In any event the purpose of the minimum wage is to prevent outright exploitation, not to provide a "living wage".

I don't care how businesses cut their running cost but it should never be at the expense of those at the bottom.

Another thing, this will be only the start of the cuts because gradually salaries will be subjected to cutbacks under the same banner of 'reducing running costs'. Let the cutbacks start at the top and only affect those at the bottom as an absolute last resort.

The point of cutting the minimum wage is to make it cheaper to hire new people not to cut the wage of existing minimum wage workers wholesale.

sharper

311 wrote: »

If there are 100,00 houses for rent now ,with 60,000 people renting.

Then only 70,000 houses are rented by the 60,000 . Who pays the rent on the 30,000 ? Inflation does.

Say what? Inflation is the expansion of money supply and the costs of good and services. What you are proposing would significantly reduce the cost of renting i.e. deflation!

How Strange

sharper wrote: »

How would you propose to enforce such a thing? Incidentally nobody has proposed a wage cut for anyone.

Lisneys announced a pay cut across the board for all employees a few weeks ago. Davys said this week that those earning over 50k would be forced to take a 5% paycut.

The poorest and most vulnerable people in society are the old, sick, disabled, mentally ill and so on not minimum wage workers. It's not logical to associate the minimum wage with someone trying to live exclusively on it, a lot (most?) minimum wage jobs are part time/student/temporary jobs and not anything anyone should be trying to make a living off.

I work with people every day who are on minimum wage. They work about 50+ hours a week just to live a decent life in Dublin.

In any event the purpose of the minimum wage is to prevent outright exploitation, not to provide a "living wage".

Not so. There are lots of jobs in the services sector that pay the minimum wage. You've obviously been fortunate enough never to earn minimum wage for a consistent length of time.

The point of cutting the minimum wage is to make it cheaper to hire new people not to cut the wage of existing minimum wage workers wholesale.

Cutting the minimum wage is the start of the race to the bottom in terms of salaries. What happens when you or I go to change jobs in a year or two under this scenario? We should, for arguments sake, have an earning potential of 50-60k but because it's possible to hire people more cheaply your earning potential has decreased. It would affect mobility between jobs and create a labour market where the employer dictates terms and conditions.

If the minimum wage is cut what incentive do the lower income earners have to get out of bed in the morning? Why not just sign on the dole? You'd probably be better off when you consider medical cards and rent allowance.

sharper

How Strange wrote: »

Lisneys announced a pay cut across the board for all employees a few weeks ago. Davys said this week that those earning over 50k would be forced to take a 5% paycut.

Sure and that's for Lisneys and Davys to figure out, what you called for though was a pay cut across all businesses. What about if my employer doesn't want to cut my wage? What then?

I work with people every day who are on minimum wage. They work about 50+ hours a week just to live a decent life in Dublin.

You're confusing minimum wage and living wage. The first thing is why should every single job be legally required to pay what constitutes a "decent life" (whatever that is)?

Secondly if nobody can afford to live on minimum wage minus €1 then there's no issue is there? Employers will have to keep wages the same since nobody will work for the new wage.

Not so. There are lots of jobs in the services sector that pay the minimum wage. You've obviously been fortunate enough never to earn minimum wage for a consistent length of time.

Ah right of course I must be up in my ivory tower drinking ivory champaign out of my ivory wine glass. I used to work in a part time job when I was in secondary school and throughout college to support myself.

Cutting the minimum wage is the start of the race to the bottom in terms of salaries. What happens when you or I go to change jobs in a year or two under this scenario? We should, for arguments sake, have an earning potential of 50-60k but because it's possible to hire people more cheaply your earning potential has decreased. It would affect mobility between jobs and create a labour market where the employer dictates terms and conditions.

The labour market doesn't work this way. It works off supply and demand not some abstract notion of what people "should" be paid. If you or I go to change jobs then employers will pay what is necessary to attract people with our skills and experience.

As for the race to the bottom, well we've been racing to the top for the last 10 years and look where it's put us. The most over inflation property bubble market in the world. Most expensive/nearly most expensive country to live in in Europe. What employer in his right might would pick here to operate?

If the minimum wage is cut what incentive do the lower income earners have to get out of bed in the morning? Why not just sign on the dole? You'd probably be better off when you consider medical cards and rent allowance.

The dole needs to be reduced as well. This is not a matter of "Hey let's screw over the least fortunate while we have the chance!!" it's a matter of just how well you should be able to live without working a day in your life.

Newaglish

311 wrote: »

If there are 100,00 houses for rent now ,with 60,000 people renting.

Then only 70,000 houses are rented by the 60,000 . Who pays the rent on the 30,000 ? Inflation does.

I'd actually love to hear what your interpretation of inflation actually is because I think there may have been a serious misunderstanding somewhere.

If nobody is living in these 30,000 houses, then nobody is paying rent. You can't rent out an empty house to "inflation". What you can do is lower the price to encourage people to rent them. Which, incidentally, would be deflation.

I would however make the point that increased interest rates and therefore mortgage costs, along with lower incomes, less job security and a troubled housing market would reduce the likelihood of people to buy houses and therefore result in more people renting and thus inflation in the price of rent.

I don't suppose that's what you're getting at?

311

Newaglish wrote: »

I would however make the point that increased interest rates and therefore mortgage costs, along with lower incomes, less job security and a troubled housing market would reduce the likelihood of people to buy houses and therefore result in more people renting and thus inflation in the price of rent.

I don't suppose that's what you're getting at?

Thats the area I was referring to alright ,interest rates increasing . I'm sure when the rates go up ,they go up for businesses too .

I'm not a financially savvy person ,I use lay man's terms for a lot of what I understand . But I do believe in what I've said and I hope we can all just work that little bit harder and keep things as they are for the moment.

Imposter

What is the minimum wage in Ireland these days? And what is the rough take home pay of a single person on minimum wage?

Wages in Ireland are way to high in comparison to other eurozone countries. Until that somehow evens out and the economy starts mirroring what's happening in the bigger eurzone countries, Ireland is in for some serious pain. If it doesn't decide to go in that direction then the only real option for Ireland is to leave the Euro.

sharper

Imposter wrote: »

What is the minimum wage in Ireland these days? And what is the rough take home pay of a single person on minimum wage?

According to CitizensInformation it's €8.65 an hour. So based on a 40 hour week that's €1499 a month and €17992 a year. This is the minimum and not all that much better than the dole (once you add in benefits like rent allowance). That gives you some idea of why the country is fecked.

Wages in Ireland are way to high in comparison to other eurozone countries. Until that somehow evens out and the economy starts mirroring what's happening in the bigger eurzone countries, Ireland is in for some serious pain. If it doesn't decide to go in that direction then the only real option for Ireland is to leave the Euro.

Well there are basically two ways of doing it. We can either try to cut our labour costs or wait for increases in everyone else's wage costs to outpace ours and that'll take years.

Imposter

sharper wrote: »

According to CitizensInformation it's €8.65 an hour. So based on a 40 hour week that's €1499 a month and €17992 a year. This is the minimum and not all that much better than the dole (once you add in benefits like rent allowance). That gives you some idea of why the country is fecked.

What would the take home be roughly for a single person earning that?

Newaglish

Imposter wrote: »

What would the take home be roughly for a single person earning that?

Income of €17,992 per annum will yield the following (for an average single person):

Annual Gross Income: €17,992
Tax at 20%: €3,598.40
Tax Credit: €3,660.00
Tax Payable: €0

Monthly take-home pay: €1,499.33
Weekly net income: €346.00