Rake Per Half Hour V's Pot Rake !

WhalloranIRL

Question for people.

At the tournaments I run we generally use a Per Player Per 30 minute rake. The recent tournament saw some players complaining about that, how we would work it is as follows.

Rake starts at 9PM (hypothetical)
When you sit down at the table you pay if you sit down between 9 and 9.15
If you sit down after 9.15 you don't pay until 9.30. Our blinds were .50/1 with the rake being 2.50 pp/30m.

I'm looking to get some feedback on this, as people were saying it would be cheaper to pay rake on a per pot basis and as a result were waiting for the 15 minutes were they wouldn't have to pay to sit down, suggested rake done out like so.

No Flop - No Rake
0-10 - No Rake
11-20 - €1
21-30 - €2
31-40 - €3
41-50 - €4
50+ - €5 Capped

What are players preferred rake ? Your thoughts ?

Ste05

Do you actually go around every half hour/ hour and ask people for their rake or do you just rake pots as the play goes on??

WhalloranIRL

Every 30 minutes the dealer will ask players seated for the 2.50 we don't rake pots at all. All money won in the pot is the players.

What I'm trying to figure out is what players think of it / what's best.

Killme00

I would recommend raking each pot as a better method of collecting the rake because it appears to make the game less expensive to play and its a fairer method when players havent been there for the full hour/ half hour

WhalloranIRL

Killme00 wrote: »

I would recommend raking each pot as a better method of collecting the rake because it appears to make the game less expensive to play and its a fairer method when players havent been there for the full hour/ half hour

Cheers killme00 that's what I'm looking for opinion on how its done currently and what players believe to be best.

nicnicnic

you should be taking the rake from the pots rather then from each player, weather this involves you raking a set amount every hour ( basically having your dealer taking the equilivent of €x per person per hour from the pots played in that hour) or you take a set rate per pot is your decision

bops

nicnicnic wrote: »

you should be taking the rake from the pots rather then from each player, weather this involves you raking a set amount every hour ( basically having your dealer taking the equilivent of €x per person per hour from the pots played in that hour) or you take a set rate per pot is your decision

yep, taking the rake directly from the players, although v reasonable and transparent, is a bad idea - people see themselves being directly hit with the charge, and also say for eg, if you have sat there like a rock for 2 hours down 60 quid without winning a hand, this direct charge would probably wreck your head!

the bottom line is that people are, in general, stupid - you are charging them a very fair price, but they would rather pay twice that as long as they didn't notice :rolleyes:

if i were you rake the pots per hand like you have outlined, they will be happier and you will get much more rake imo

gl

WhalloranIRL

bops/nicky thanks for the replies, yeah I think the rake per pot might be the best option going forward we wanted to try and give the player the best deal on the cash tables, encourage play and get people to come back etc... but complaints started so if the rake is a little less obvious to players as a "direct charge" it might suit better.

You can please some of the people some of the time ....etc etc

NickyOD

Run a bigger cash game with bigger blinds
(1/2 or 1/3) and rake the pots. 2.50 a half hour is the cheapest rake I've ever heard of and nowhere near financially viable for a cardroom to maintain........

.....unless of course it's self deal.

If not then you've started off on a very bad foot because will definitely need to increase the rake. You're players probably don't have a clue how good they have it.

WhalloranIRL

NickyOD wrote: »

Run a bigger cash game with bigger blinds
(1/2 or 1/3) and rake the pots. 2.50 a half hour is the cheapest rake I've ever heard of and nowhere near financially viable for a cardroom to maintain........

.....unless of course it's self deal.

If not then you've started off on a very bad foot because will definitely need to increase the rake. You're players probably don't have a clue how good they have it.

We don't run a card room Nicky just tournaments monthly in hotels around Waterford and its fully dealer dealt, majority of players are pub players who enjoy a bigger event every so often, first night we tried the 1/2 with a higher rake of €6 pp/60mins and no one wanted to play so we ended up dropping the blinds and rake that night, going to rake the pots in future from the feedback here.

KevIRL

NickyOD wrote: »

Run a bigger cash game with bigger blinds
(1/2 or 1/3) and rake the pots. 2.50 a half hour is the cheapest rake I've ever heard of and nowhere near financially viable for a cardroom to maintain........

.....unless of course it's self deal.

If not then you've started off on a very bad foot because will definitely need to increase the rake. You're players probably don't have a clue how good they have it.

Its fully dealer dealt, in fairness to Wayne, he gives very good value. Like you said the players dont know how good they have it.

I remember the first night there was a few pots up around the 300-400 euro mark from .5/1 blinds with zero rake

bohsman

It used to be seen as illegal to take a % of a pot, its either being ignored or being read differently now.

charlesanto

I love the concept of paying an hourly rake. Only because i hate nits !

tiptap

charlesanto wrote: »

I love the concept of paying an hourly rake. Only because i hate nits !

I agree,
In the UK most of the clubs don't rake the pot, you pay an hourly fee which I think is a far better idea.

Slightly confused though OP, you mention it's monthly tournaments,
Why have rake when you can just have a reg fee ?

KevIRL

tiptap wrote: »

Slightly confused though OP, you mention it's monthly tournaments,
Why have rake when you can just have a reg fee ?

He runs cash tables as people get knocked out of the tournament

tiptap

KevIRL wrote: »

He runs cash tables as people get knocked out of the tournament

ah yes, that'll explain it,
cheers

corkie123

at 5 euro per hr u must be the cheapest around and they still complain lol
i myself would love this game as in some of live places i have play in they take much much more than that in 15 mins haha

RoundTower

I think what you do is the best and the fairest and the most transparent and you should keep doing it.

It might be "bad for the game" because it makes the rake much more obvious to the players. But that doesn't make it bad.

Goodluck2me

RoundTower wrote: »

I think what you do is the best and the fairest and the most transparent and you should keep doing it.

It might be "bad for the game" because it makes the rake much more obvious to the players. But that doesn't make it bad.

it makes it bad if the players dont like it and dont play.

dannydiamond

RoundTower wrote: »

I think what you do is the best and the fairest and the most transparent and you should keep doing it.

It might be "bad for the game" because it makes the rake much more obvious to the players. But that doesn't make it bad.

I totally agree,but as bops suggested human nature's a funny animal and as the op's dealing with mainly pub players I think raking pots as opposed to players will

A)make the players feel better(regardless of common sense)

B)make more money for the organiser

WhalloranIRL

RoundTower wrote: »

I think what you do is the best and the fairest and the most transparent and you should keep doing it.

It might be "bad for the game" because it makes the rake much more obvious to the players. But that doesn't make it bad.

I agree that it would appear to be the fairest way however players complained and wouldn't pay/play. Obviously I want to encourage players to the tables and as others have posted - a little less transparency (although a bad thing imo) may have a positive on my game.

dannydiamond wrote: »

A)make the players feel better(regardless of common sense)

B)make more money for the organiser

A is the main point above, not so much B although not a bad thing either

RoundTower

well you could wait till a player goes on a toilet break and then grab some chips from his stack, this would be inconspicuous and you could probably take quite a lot, but I don't think it would a good way to rake the game.

Poker players complain no matter what you do, they complain about this mostly because they aren't used to it and I doubt it will really lose you players.

NickyOD

WhalloranIRL wrote: »

first night we tried the 1/2 with a higher rake of €6 pp/60mins and no one wanted to play so we ended up dropping the blinds and rake that night, going to rake the pots in future from the feedback here.

This is exactly what I was getting at. Just because your players don't know the price of a loaf of bread doesn't mean you should sell it for half price. Once you realise you're going to have to increase the rake to make the game financially viable the players will become even more disgruntled. €6/hr pp is astonishingly cheap imo.

mormank

100% do not use the per half hour rake..anywhere i have used it it only causes hassle and players dont even realise how much cheaper it can be. I seriously cannot see a single argument FOR using per half hour rake over taking out of pots barring the one that says that the players who win will end up paying the rake. But meh to that one...

pokerkingsni

What is the usual rake for a €1/€2 game anyway?

phantom_lord

.

bohsman

€3.80 per player per half hour is what we were charging.

Marq

RoundTower wrote: »

I think what you do is the best and the fairest and the most transparent and you should keep doing it.

It might be "bad for the game" because it makes the rake much more obvious to the players. But that doesn't make it bad.

.

Hectorjelly

Yeah I think a time charge is much better, its much more transparent.

I think the OP should be commended for having such low rake, its his business whether is profitable or not. The rake has been so high in some 12 games ive played last year that it has put me of playing live cash games.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Its time charge in the Vic , I have to say i hated it

jacQues

Most people who "hate" the hourly rake are tight players who don't gain/lose anything from that situation and hate paying in general. Although they should know better, as less rake for other players means more potential money for them. Most other players don't understand the difference.

Paying per hour is so much more transparent, it's not even funny. Raking per pot is hidden and soooooo much more income for the organiser, most players don't seem to be able to spot that. Per pot rake works out as about double the amount per player as opposed to hourly!

As a player who can count, I prefer hourly rake (or half-hour, same deal).

jacQues