Metro North vs Northern line spur

IIMII

I've just been reading through various threads with sporadic references to Metro North vs a spur off the northern line.

I think the idea of a metro/luas/railway through north central Dublin is a good idea. Neither do I have a problem with a northern line spur.

However, reading through previous threads I have wondered what the benefits are of a post interconnector northern line being quaded and a spur added to Swords and the Airport.

The question I'm asking is how does the Metro North (Airport-Swords section specifically) plan compare to the northern line spur/quadding/interconnector idea?

I have to admit that the idea of connecting the airport to Dublin city centre makes sense, but similarly connecting the busiest airport in the country to the national railway network also makes sense particularly if the interconnector passes through Dublin city centre as well.

Any thoughts?

Irish and Proud

IIMII wrote: »

I've just been reading through various threads with sporadic references to Metro North vs a spur off the northern line.

I think the idea of a metro/luas/railway through north central Dublin is a good idea. Neither do I have a problem with a northern line spur.

However, reading through previous threads I have wondered what the benefits are of a post interconnector northern line being quaded and a spur added to Swords and the Airport.

The question I'm asking is how does the Metro North (Airport-Swords section specifically) plan compare to the northern line spur/quadding/interconnector idea?

I have to admit that the idea of connecting the airport to Dublin city centre makes sense, but similarly connecting the busiest airport in the country to the national railway network with the possability of direct trains from say Galway to Dublin airport also makes sense.

Any thoughts?

Quad-tracking the Northern line would have its difficulties, with noise and vibrations in the vicinity of piling (for box cutting) etc. Then there's the disruption - especially with symmetrical track augmentation - the Kildare route project seems to be using parallel augmentation (2 tracks added to one side off the existing line. This in turn would probably mean that work on the Kildare route can continue without any major disruption. More so, the stations there seem to be operating as normal while additional platforms are constructed alongside. Please follow...

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/kildare_project_update.asp

...to view 2 images of Hazelhatch station (bottom of page). I can't see this being done on the Northern Dart Line TBH.

What I would propose is quad-tracking the Northern Line from the Interconnector to Clontarf (golf course), from where an express rail tunnel would continue to North of Coolock. From a proper interchange station there, the line would split into 2 surface routes, one for the Airport and one for Malahide. Now, Clontarf and Malahide stations would probably require reconstruction, but all other Dart stations would continue operating as normal, throughout the entire project timeframe.

The question is: what would this proposal do???

1) Allow a faster and shorter Dart connection to the Airport, and Metro North (if it's built);

2) Allow all express trains to by-pass the now congested Northern Dart Line from South of Malahide (Malahide would require re-location to the South of Dublin Road) to Clontarf. Beneficial services would include: The Enterprise, Northern Suburban, and possible express Dart services from Balbriggan;

3) Enable the Northern Dart Line to be upgraded to a service with regular frequency. Assuming that the Airport Dart service utilises the interconnector (3 minute headway), a headway of 6 minutes should be possible from Clontarf to Howth Junction, with 12 minute headways on both the Malahide and Howth spurs;

4) The station North of Coolock would enhance the development potential of lands within the North Fringe area. It would also allow a major P+R facility to be provided there, which would absorb some road traffic from the Swords and Malahide routes.

As there would be no stations in the tunnel (for safety reasons with diesal trains involved), it should be much cheaper than the tunnels for Metro North. I've been pushing this concept before, because I think it's well worth considering.

Regards!

GerardKeating

IIMII wrote: »

I've just been reading through various threads with sporadic references to Metro North vs a spur off the northern line.

I think the idea of a metro/luas/railway through north central Dublin is a good idea. Neither do I have a problem with a northern line spur.

However, reading through previous threads I have wondered what the benefits are of a post interconnector northern line being quaded and a spur added to Swords and the Airport.

The question I'm asking is how does the Metro North (Airport-Swords section specifically) plan compare to the northern line spur/quadding/interconnector idea?

I have to admit that the idea of connecting the airport to Dublin city centre makes sense, but similarly connecting the busiest airport in the country to the national railway network also makes sense particularly if the interconnector passes through Dublin city centre as well.

Any thoughts?

Quad-tracking a working line, like the northern would cause years of disruption.

But quad-tracking a green field site (like the Airport Metro) will cause little or no disruption to existing services.

Metrobest

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Quad-tracking the Northern line would have its difficulties, with noise and vibrations in the vicinity of piling (for box cutting) etc. Then there's the disruption - especially with symmetrical track augmentation - the Kildare route project seems to be using parallel augmentation (2 tracks added to one side off the existing line. This in turn would probably mean that work on the Kildare route can continue without any major disruption. More so, the stations there seem to be operating as normal while additional platforms are constructed alongside. Please follow...

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/kildare_project_update.asp

...to view 2 images of Hazelhatch station (bottom of page). I can't see this being done on the Northern Dart Line TBH.

What I would propose is quad-tracking the Northern Line from the Interconnector to Clontarf (golf course), from where an express rail tunnel would continue to North of Coolock. From a proper interchange station there, the line would split into 2 surface routes, one for the Airport and one for Malahide. Now, Clontarf and Malahide stations would probably require reconstruction, but all other Dart stations would continue operating as normal, throughout the entire project timeframe.

The question is: what would this proposal do???

1) Allow a faster and shorter Dart connection to the Airport, and Metro North (if it's built);

2) Allow all express trains to by-pass the now congested Northern Dart Line from South of Malahide (Malahide would require re-location to the South of Dublin Road) to Clontarf. Beneficial services would include: The Enterprise, Northern Suburban, and possible express Dart services from Balbriggan;

3) Enable the Northern Dart Line to be upgraded to a service with regular frequency. Assuming that the Airport Dart service utilises the interconnector (3 minute headway), a headway of 6 minutes should be possible from Clontarf to Howth Junction, with 12 minute headways on both the Malahide and Howth spurs;

4) The station North of Coolock would enhance the development potential of lands within the North Fringe area. It would also allow a major P+R facility to be provided there, which would absorb some road traffic from the Swords and Malahide routes.

As there would be no stations in the tunnel (for safety reasons with diesal trains involved), it should be much cheaper than the tunnels for Metro North. I've been pushing this concept before, because I think it's well worth considering.

Regards!

Quad tracking the northern is a non-runner, unfortunately. The only way the airport´s going to see heavy rail is if a high speed line was constructed from Dublin to Belfast via the airport.

For now, just thank your lucky stars the airport´s getting a metro station.

D.L.R.

Metrobest wrote: »

Quad tracking the northern is a non-runner, unfortunately. The only way the airport´s going to see heavy rail is if a high speed line was constructed from Dublin to Belfast via the airport.

For now, just thank your lucky stars the airport´s getting a metro station.

The way I see it, doubling up on the northern line is - in the long term - actually essential.

With the motorway network expanding, people will be less inclined towards trains. Intercity bus routes will soon be faster than their equivalent rail route. And there is the private car. The rail network needs to actively compete with road. This can't happen without faster speeds, and faster speeds can't happen unless rail traffic is better segragated. This means more rail lines.

Stopping short of actual hi-speed lines which for now are unattainable/unjustified, at the very least the rail network must provide separate lines for intercity & local traffic. Quadding the northern line will happen eventually, be it online or offline, because demand will require it to happen.

Back to the topic, and I'm hopeful the airport will one day be served by the metro AND a mainline spur.

ga2re2t

Why is there so much emphasis here about quad-tracking the northern line? Surely just one extra track (i.e. tripling the line) would work wonders in itself without causing the disruption entailed by quad-tracking?

If you want to connect the airport to the national rail network you could start by extending the metro to the northern line just before (or after?) Donabate. You'd then, more or less, have a service "Belfast-Dundalk-Drogheda-Dublin Airport". Unfortunately, main line trains (e.g. the Enterprise) would not be able to use the metro line directly to the airport as I believe the metro north will be using European standard gauge.

stiktoir

ga2re2t wrote: »

Why is there so much emphasis here about quad-tracking the northern line? Surely just one extra track (i.e. tripling the line) would work wonders in itself without causing the disruption entailed by quad-tracking?

If you want to connect the airport to the national rail network you could start by extending the metro to the northern line just before (or after?) Donabate. You'd then, more or less, have a service "Belfast-Dundalk-Drogheda-Dublin Airport". Unfortunately, main line trains (e.g. the Enterprise) would not be able to use the metro line directly to the airport as I believe the metro north will be using European standard gauge.

You need to get a stronger pair of binoculars to assess things fron France on the nothern line.
Killester, Harmonstown and Raheny stations are in a cutting. Clontarf Rd to Killester is mostly on a ramp.
All the stations would have to be completely rebuilt.
Triple tracking the northwern line would cost at least 80% the quad cost and 100% the disruption.

dowlingm

Here's my take - given the realities of Metro North etc. rather than scrapping them.

• Extend Metro North to a terminus at Donabate to facilitate northern Enterprise/suburban users going to Swords/Airport/Ballymun/DCU.
• Extend Metro West past Metro North and Howth Junction and convert Howth DART track to be Metro West's terminus.
• Improve Enterprise service not by inner city quad tracking but by building a new northern track from Donabate direct to just outside Drogheda station rated for 200km/h, cutting the curve around to Balbriggan.
• Build Balbriggan Port and route Navan ore freights there at the earliest opportunity.
• Add passing track south of Donabate where the cost is not prohibitive.

Would that remove 0-change commuting from Howth apart from DB service. Yup. Do I care? Nope - which is odd because I normally hate adding transfers. Getting rid of track crossing conflicts with Dublin-Drogheda services means more slots for those services which will likely carry far more people in the long run, and if the shenanigans on the M3 continue, we might need Navan-Drogheda-Dublin passenger slots after all. The bottleneck should then become Connolly but hopefully interconnector will solve that.

If I had a clean sheet of paper, a reasonable budget and a time machine, I would:

• build a DART line from Donabate to Tallaght to interline with an extended DART network through Balbriggan
• build the M1 Boyne bridge with a rail deck and the express rail line south of that through the M1 land take
• relocate the Drogheda Enterprise station to north Drogheda
• retain the existing southern station for outer suburban traffic from Dundalk/Drogheda North and Navan.