Gay adoption

Bottle_of_Smoke

Topic's come up a bit recently. Should a same sex couple be allowed to adopt a child?

My opinion is no. A child is better off with a male & female parent and there's no shortage of suitable hetero couples who want a child.

Also the child of a gay couple is going to have a nightmare in school.

Seems to me to be just another "equality issue"

Opinions?

Fol20

i agree with the op..Children should be brought up with a father and mother.I think it would affect them very negatively if they are brought up in a gay lifestyle.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

how exactly would it affect them negatively?

the only way I can think of is from the prejudice and bigotry of others.

4Xcut

Also going to have to agree with the op. The issue here isn't the equality for the couple but rather the life that the child will have growing up. He/she will have a terrible time at school as was already said.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Princess Innocent Knickers wrote: »

how exactly would it affect them negatively?

the only way I can think of is from the prejudice and bigotry of others.

Studies suggest the world is full of prejudice and bigotry

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

studiest suggest you're doing your part.

IrishKnight

Children should be brought up with a father and mother.

Yet a hell alot of chidlern aren't, and they turn out just fine....

oh well , okay

Think the hard time at school argument is an easy cop out to be honest .

If kids wanna give kids a hard time it's gonna happen regardless . They'll find a reason if they want to .

Follow the hard time at school logic and next thing there's no redheads at school , no kids with braces or glasses or funny names or overweight kids or tall kids or small kids or smelly kids or kids with a stammer or with poor parents or rich parents or divorced parents the list goes on and on and on .

Follow that logic further and would you allow interracial families to adopt ? how about couples with a disability ? People wouldn't dare broach that argument with these minorities .

Fol20 - define a gay lifestyle please ?

Personnaly I think it's a thorny issue and one that doesn't sit well with me if I'm honest but when I look at the arguments against it I find they all have rather large holes in them .

jaffa20

I am gay and never want to have children but if say (god forbid), my niece was left parentless, shouldn't i have the right to adopt her rather than see her go to a stranger? Whether my partner is male or female has nothing to do it. I don't see how differently it would affect the child and it is only the world views that would affect her and not the upbringing itself. Such is the world view of the op.

Bottle_of_Smoke

oh well , okay wrote: »

Think the hard time at school argument is an easy cop out to be honest .

If kids wanna give kids a hard time it's gonna happen regardless . They'll find a reason if they want to .

Follow the hard time at school logic and next thing there's no redheads at school , no kids with braces or glasses or funny names or overweight kids or tall kids or small kids or smelly kids or kids with a stammer or with poor parents or rich parents or divorced parents the list goes on and on and on .

Follow that logic further and would you allow interracial families to adopt ? how about couples with a disability ? People wouldn't dare broach that argument with these minorities .

Fol20 - define a gay lifestyle please ?

Personnaly I think it's a thorny issue and one that doesn't sit well with me if I'm honest but when I look at the arguments against it I find they all have rather large holes in them .

If you feel that way you really don't know anything about children. I went to multiple denomination schools & some of my group of friends in secondary came out(all of us male) I also used to play on football teams with working class kids I've seen both views. Being gay was the worst thing you could be labelled as with the football crowd. The gay guys in school outside my group tended to have very little male friends.

Gay parents would be the ultimate ammo for any bully/slagging match. Can only imagine the resentment the child would feel toward the parents. You don't see the equality value when you're 11 the loser of the school. They know they're gonna go through grief from day one.

You also have to remember how few children will have gay parents if it was legislated for. There's huge waiting lists for adoption in this country, I don't know even know that many adopted people. And a maximum of 10 percent of potential adoptions would be homosexual. Therefore those very few children probably wouldn't even know someone else in school with gay parents.

Whereas there are plenty of children of interacial marrages, and it's nowhere near as embarrassing for a child. Same for disabilities. I'm not saying it should be that way, but it is that way & it will be for a very long time. And it's not fair on the few kids that would have to go the childhood of a gay adoption.

Irishknight wrote:

Quote:
Children should be brought up with a father and mother.

Yet a hell alot of chidlern aren't, and they turn out just fine....

Well do you think single people should be able to adopt children then?

oh well , okay

I've seen some vicious bullying growing up in Ireland , thinking about it now some of it was quite horrific .

I was in a school with only one Chinese kid and the abuse he got would make your skin crawl , we had a kid with a skin condition and he was literally treated like a leper . We had gay kids at school too and I can say hand on heart say the abuse they got was no worse than other kids . Maybe you feel being gay was the worst thing to be but I'm sure the Chinese boy in my school thought being Chinese was the worst .

Do you think it's wrong that kids bully kids or do you think it's wrong that kids go to school with backgrounds that make them prone to bullying ? Do you think it acceptable that a whole society would base it's policies on playground politics ?

But that's not what this thread is about - it's about gay adoption - now whatever about the rights and wrongs I think it's an absurd argument that childrens playground attitude to children of gay adoption is reason enough to not allow it .

Incidentally single people can adopt in Ireland .

I have redhair.....should I abstain in case I inflict school yard bullying on any possible offspring?

Bottle_of_Smoke

oh well , okay wrote: »

But that's not what this thread is about - it's about gay adoption - now whatever about the rights and wrongs I think it's an absurd argument that childrens playground attitude to children of gay adoption is reason enough to not allow it .

Ironically enough that is exactly what this thread is about. You can't just exclude the child. He or she is 1 out of the 3 people involved in gay adoption.
The Chinese kid knows his parents didn't choose to be chinese, whereas gay adoption children know both their chose to put them in their position and as I pointed out, there's plenty of chinese/foreign kids nowadays. Even if it was legislated for there would still be very few children of gay adoption.

kizzyr

Personally I think people should be judged on any number of other things when being considered as adoptive parents before their sexual orientation is taken into the equation.
There are many many children who live in dreadful circumstances with heterosexual parents e.g abuse towards them, towards either parent, alcoholism, drug abuse, neglect, etc etc. Any child that has a parent (more so if there are two) that loves it unconditionally,will teach it a good moral code of conduct through its life, to love and respect other people, to be proud of themselves and their achievements is a lucky lucky child. Whether its parents happen to be two men, two women, a man and a woman is immaterial in my view.

oh well , okay

Ironically enough that is exactly what this thread is about. You can't just exclude the child. He or she is 1 out of the 3 people involved in gay adoption.
The Chinese kid knows his parents didn't choose to be chinese, whereas gay adoption children know both their chose to put them in their position and as I pointed out, there's plenty of chinese/foreign kids nowadays. Even if it was legislated for there would still be very few children of gay adoption.

You've hinted several times that the child might resent his gay guardians for putting them in this situation . Don't all children at some point resent their parents ? Would Moonbabys child resent him/her for inheriting red hair .

I think you missed the point a little bit on the Chinese kid ... would he of got that abuse in China ? or did he get it because his parents chose to live here ? would he resent them for moving and would he be right to so so ?

The point I'm trying to make still stands though - should we allow playground attitudes dictate the decisions we make as a society ? I'm all for a healthy debate on gay adoption and don't particularly have a steadfast view on it - I just feel this particular argument to be without merit .

Dave!

There was a time when a child would be abused to no end for coming from a broken home; for having Protestant parents; for having inter-racial parents; for having foreign parents... etc etc etc. Society evolves and people grow up. There's nothing exceptional about homophobia, it's just another form of prejudice in a similar vein to racism. There was a time when black people were slaves, and were lynched regularly. We move on. Now it's an outrage if anything like that is even joked about.

If they're not slagged about having gay parents it will be because they have spots or glasses or they're fat or they're too smart or they're too dumb or they're black or they're Muslim or they're crap at sports.

The way to deal with sh*t like this is to not let the bigots and the morons win; it's to challenge the opinions of the parents, and educate the children about the subject. It will soon become acceptable, just like everything else.

But all this aside -- has anyone got research which provides information on the welfare of children with heterosexual parents versus homosexual parents? Is there a significant difference? Or are we just going on anecdotal evidence and stories from our childhood about the guy who came out and was beaten up?

eVeNtInE

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dr_manhattan

Got to love the "if you say that you know nothing about children" argument.

okay, quick and simple:

1. Nobody knows what's the proper way to raise a kid. We get serial rapists from luxurious homes with parents and au pairs. We get geniuses from single parent ghetto families. And every possible permutation in between. Discipline may control a child or make them rebel. A lack of it may destroy a child or make them a polyglot genius.

2. Singletons are allowed to adopt, so please, leave your "mother and a father" argument at the door. Besides which: I know three murderers and a man who murdered his own parents - ALL of them came from upper middle class families, never wanted, parents always there. Is that a decent argument to ban hetero couple for adopting?

IMHO from 12-112, if they pass the criteria they can adopt.

I do not remotely give a flying **** if they only have sex in groups of 200 or more, or if they wear sellotape on their heads: if they are capable parents then they are CAPABLE PARENTS.

The schoolyard... yeah whatever.

Cato

shouldent really be allowed to raise kids it would introduce to many parental/child relationship issues to possible.

eVeNtInE

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Cato

Im not psychologist unfortunatly.

dr_manhattan

Im not psychologist unfortunatly.

So how can you know it's a problem?

eVeNtInE

This post has been deleted.

Cato

Mr Crystal wrote: »

Then would you care to explain how you came to the conclusion that gay people "shouldent really be allowed to raise kids it would introduce to many parental/child relationship issues to possible."

easy, same reason you don't see same sex gay couples raising kids in society.Let me ask you a question is there a Fundamental Reason WHY same sex couples need to raise kids?

jaffa20

Because they would be able to teach their kids to spell properly :rolleyes:

jaffa20

Cato wrote: »

easy, same reason you don't see same sex gay couples raising kids in society.Let me ask you a question is there a Fundamental Reason WHY same sex couples need to raise kids?

Is there a fundamental reason why they shouldn't I thought that was the topic... Reversing the question won't get you anywhere.

Cato

jaffa20 wrote: »

Is there a fundamental reason why they shouldn't I thought that was the topic... Reversing the question won't get you anywhere.

You cant prove a Negative, my question makes more sense.

dr_manhattan

so let me get this straight:

we shouldn't let same sex couples raise kids cos it'd cause problems.

What problems?

No idea. Except they're not allowed to raise kids so there!

brilliant.

jaffa20

Then would the below reason suffice as i posted in an earlier message. Also, if the biological parent wanted to give her child to me and i was willing to accept. Shouldn't i be allowed? Or should a piece of paper decide issues relating to society and hand the baby over to a complete stranger against the mother's wishes.

jaffa20 wrote: »

I am gay and never want to have children but if say (god forbid), my niece was left parentless, shouldn't i have the right to adopt her rather than see her go to a stranger? Whether my partner is male or female has nothing to do it. I don't see how differently it would affect the child and it is only the world views that would affect her and not the upbringing itself. Such is the world view of the op.

dr_manhattan

"my question makes more sense."

Okay then: why should same sex couples raise kids?

1. cos they want to
2. cos they can
3. cos there's no reason they shouldn't (even you don't have one, cato)
4. cos there's no recipe for raising kids
5. cos they're the same as any other couple

how's that?

ixoy

Cato wrote: »

easy, same reason you don't see same sex gay couples raising kids in society.

So the reason they shouldn't raise kids is because they don't raise kids? What?

Let me ask you a question is there a Fundamental Reason WHY same sex couples need to raise kids?

Is there a fundamental reason why opposite sex couples need to raise kids?

Cato

as i said im no psychologist, ive yet to hear any good reasons why they need to raise kids or am i not jumping on the band wagon correctly?

Some reasons why i think it would be a bad idea? the points mention by OP also i believe a child develops its ideas of male/female relationship through its parents, i think introducing same sex parents would mess with the natural order of things and lead to psycological problems later on.i dont believe this crap that a child is born gay etc its what he/she is exposed to at mental maturity which influences this.

hope that makes sense, dont think it really matters anyway gonna get abused by having a different opinion:rolleyes:

Cato

jaffa20 wrote: »

Then would the below reason suffice as i posted in an earlier message. Also, if the biological parent wanted to give her child to me and i was willing to accept. Shouldn't i be allowed? Or should a piece of paper decide issues relating to society and hand the baby over to a complete stranger against the mother's wishes.

i think biological parents should have the choice, not saying its right though, you have to think about the child as well not just yourself and your want to raise it.

the_syco

Princess Innocent Knickers wrote: »

how exactly would it affect them negatively?

the only way I can think of is from the prejudice and bigotry of others.

Yup. Why should the child suffer just so that the father and father feel equal to the mother and father next door?

Cato

Okay then: why should same sex couples raise kids?

1. cos they want to-i want alot of things to.
2. cos they can-therefore they should?
3. cos there's no reason they shouldn't (even you don't have one, cato)-already said trying to prove a negative is pointless and will never happen because its IMPOSIBLE
4. cos there's no recipe for raising kids-no but generaly there are circumstances were it would not beneficial for a raing a kid (same sex couples) for variose reasons i mention in other post
5. cos they're the same as any other couple-no, please same sex couple are not the same.

The_Minister

I used to be very against gay adoption (for the reasons cited above: bullying etc). I've actually changed my mind though.

Firstly, gay people can already adopt. There are many children in Ireland being raised right now by gay parents. All they have to do is adopt as a single parent.
This means that the issue isn't whether or not gay people can begin to adopt children, but whether or not gay couples can adopt. At the moment we have the very unsatisfactory situation where gay people who want to adopt are purposefully perverting the adoption system, and I would argue that for the sake of child welfare, it is important that gay people be allowed to adopt.

I have more, but I think that that deserves its own post.

Cato

ixoy wrote: »

So the reason they shouldn't raise kids is because they don't raise kids? What?

kinda missed my point or i dident put it across correctly, they did not conceive or produce child and im not sure a couple who has done neither of this have the required subconscious investment to properly raise a child the "regular" way, cause lets face it you can argue until your face turns blue, its just not the same!

ixoy wrote: »

Is there a fundamental reason why opposite sex couples need to raise kids?

yes there is, think about it :rolleyes:

the_syco

Cato wrote: »

yes there is, think about it :rolleyes:

I'm against it, but... there isn't. Kids don't catch the gayness. Think about it: gay people come from hero's, so gay's won't make hetro kids gay.

The_Minister

Cato wrote: »

kinda missed my point or i dident put it across correctly, they did not conceive or produce child and im not sure a couple who has done neither of this have the required subconscious investment to properly raise a child the "regular" way, cause lets face it you can argue until your face turns blue, its just not the same!

Surely that is an arguement against all adoption?
And before you say it, I'm straight, so I'm not being purposefully obtuse.

the_syco wrote: »

I'm against it, but... there isn't. Kids don't catch the gayness. Think about it: gay people come from hero's, so gay's won't make hetro kids gay.

No. But they may pressure them into a certain lifestyle. "Dad...Other Dad...I'm straight"


Na. On second thought I don't really see it.

Cato

the_syco wrote: »

gay people come from hero's

what?

i dident say it was a disease that could be caught sigh*

jaffa20

ugh i give up. I reread the above posts several times without understanding anything. I don't know if it is me or are the arguments against just repetitive and boring. Yes, the child comes first, yet they don't always come first in a heterosexual relationship with abuse, neglect etc etc. The idea of catching gayness is just ridiculous. But don't worry people in oposition, i've no intention of having kids so i won't spread my gayness :eek::eek:

jaffa20

Cato wrote: »

what?

i dident say it was a disease that could be caught sigh*

More or less. You said the upbringing goes against the natural order of things and it would directly affect the child's views and by being exposed to such an environment, he/she would somehow think it is normal and become gay.

Cato

well thats end of it for me i have my reasons, and im not against adoption im all for couples adopting who are unable to produce a child because of some physical defect/incapability, not because they cant because are biologically incompatible, guess that makes me old school bigot? :pac: weres the nazi party application form sign me up!!!:D

jaffa20

Cato wrote: »

well thats end of it for me i have my reasons, and im not against adoption im all for couples adopting who are unable to produce a child because of some physical defect/incapability, not because they cant because are biologically incompatible, guess that makes me old school bigot? :pac: weres the nazi party application form sign me up!!!:D

Gay males do have a physical incapability. I don't like the term biologically incompatible.

dr_manhattan

If your mother dies and your older brother helps your da with the housework... or your father dies and your older sister helps your mother with the housework...

That's the only major difference I see.

Possible lack of a role model of some description - is that enough to ban half the world from adopting?

****, if I was in business with someone - a bloke - and neither of us married but we wanted a kid and had a stable shared environment (I'm straight by the way) -

What would be the problem with that? ****, it beats an orphanage. Do we really only recognise marriage between a man and a woman as "stability"?

MagicMarker

If i were female, giving a child up for adoption, I'd rather he/she be brought up by a gay couple who were successful, mature, healthy, emotionally stable, good morals/ethics that could supply my child with a stable home, emotional and financial support as well as unconditional love.

I would choose them any day over a hetro couple that go to the pub every night, on welfare with a history of physical and mental abuse.

If a couple can offer a child a good and loving home, then their sexuality shouldn't come into it.

The_Minister

MagicMarker wrote: »

If i were female, giving a child up for adoption, I'd rather he/she be brought up by a gay couple who were successful, mature, healthy, emotionally stable, good morals/ethics that could supply my child with a stable home, emotional and financial support as well as unconditional love.

I would choose them any day over a hetro couple that go to the pub every night, on welfare with a history of physical and mental abuse.

If a couple can offer a child a good and loving home, then their sexuality shouldn't come into it.

Except that unstable hetero couples won't be allowed adopt. It isn't a choice between horribly heteros and godly gays. When you're talking about adoption, the demand and standards are high enough that all couples recieving children are of a very high standard. Gay adoption won't "save" any children.

MagicMarker

The_Minister wrote: »

Except that unstable hetero couples won't be allowed adopt. It isn't a choice between horribly heteros and godly gays. When you're talking about adoption, the demand and standards are high enough that all couples recieving children are of a very high standard. Gay adoption won't "save" any children.

True enough, i'd still choose a godly gay couple over a mediocre straight couple.

Like i said, if a good home is on offer, then sexuality shouldn't come into it.

dr_manhattan

"horribly heteros and godly gays."

9pm thursday, channel 4

;-)

The_Minister

MagicMarker wrote: »

True enough, i'd still choose a godly gay couple over a mediocre straight couple.

Like i said, if a good home is on offer, then sexuality shouldn't come into it.

I'm for gay adoption, but tbh I think your arguement isn't great. If it is a choice between two equally good families, one straight and one gay, then which is chosen?
None, of the other posters want children to suffer, but if they think that hetro relations are optimal for a child then they will want a straight family to be given preference.

The_Minister

dr_manhattan wrote: »

9pm thursday, channel 4

;-)

Did I make a funny and not realise it?:)