Compound Lifts?

Relevant

For the past few months i've been following a routine that has seen reasonable results (given the fact that my diet wasn't consistently as good as it should have been and i'd skip the gym the odd time). It consisted of a mix between machine and free weights.

So i've got to a stage where i'm in fairly good shape, although my fitness is still a bit crap. So after I come back from holidays I was thinking of trying to amend my goals a bit and start to get a bit bigger over the winter months while also improving my fitness.

So my question is...

If i was to concentrate on some compound lifts, eg deadlifts, squats, bench press etc 2 days a week and then concentrate on HIIT cardio on another two days would i see results or would the two counteract each other in any way?

Cheers

gabgab

Look at starting strength, google it and there are some good reviews of it on here in the logs, or very similar workouts.

I am trying to do it at the minute but also have a triathlon in 4 weeks, so I'm at a bit of a mismatch of stuff, to get bigger eat more, lots more, of clean foods and lift heavy.

Transform

Not at all that a good combo just get your form right on the compounds and make sure your doing chin ups also

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Transform, would you recommend Chin ups over Pull ups? If so why?

gabgab

Yeh I am curious to that also,

Hanley

Pull ups have always thrashed my shoulders and I've never really felt them in my lats. I started doing chins while leaning back a bit and aiming more for my nipple line and the difference is night and day.

tribulus

For the sake of pedantry I'm assuming pullups = palms out and chinups = palms in?

I've always just called them chins and just stated if they were palms in or out.

Colm_OReilly

Chins involve the biceps moreso than pulls, and are recommended by Rip on SS. I can't remember his exact reasoning, however.

gabgab

Cheers Colm,

rubadub

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Chins involve the biceps moreso than pulls, and are recommended by Rip on SS. I can't remember his exact reasoning, however.

I think Rip was saying (along with other reasons I am not sure of) to do whichever you can do most reps of. For most people this is chinups. I began a thread about Rip a while ago here


I do a mixture of both, usually more chins though, I much prefer them. I might start on pullups for a 1st set, since if I want to be in a 8-12 rep range I can do more pullups on my first set, then switch to chins and be able to match that number.

For the sake of pedantry I'm assuming pullups = palms out and chinups = palms in?

99% of people who state both in the same sentence/context mean exactly that. 1% are looking for an argument;)

I've always just called them chins and just stated if they were palms in or out.

US military call then both pullups. That is what I mean, if listed on their own it could mean either, if both are talked about it is pullups=palms out.

Hanley wrote: »

I started doing chins while leaning back a bit and aiming more for my nipple line and the difference is night and day.

You mentioned doing 100 chins a while ago, how many sets was that? how long a break between etc? any particular reason for doing it?
I do a lot of weighted ones and am going to try it with weight on my feet so I can lean them in front or behind to hit different areas.

To make my chins more of a compound movement I often do knee raises at the same time, weights on the feet would increase that effect.

There was a pic on a site of a kid with a weight on his feet, very simple, just a loop of rope or webbing, passed through the hole in a weight plate then looped onto both feet, so it hung taut sort of like lifting straps. If you tied 2 lifting straps together you might be able to use them the same, I may stitch mine up since I never use them anymore anyway.

Climate Expert

I've started to do weighted pullups now with 7.5kg balanced on my legs.

I've been doing lots of compounds the last year and I'm always steadily increasing the weight. Is this enough or should I be mixing it up to get better results?

Transform

Under hand grip or parallel grip is best really as you can lift the most - oh and no half getting chin over the bar and then lowering only until the arms are slightly bent - arms should be fully extended (with tension) at the bottom.

Start adding weight when you can do 8 reps

Overhand grip, from my experience, will always give people problems with the shoulders over time.

Get up to doing a few reps (3-5)with 25-30kg hanging off you and you will have great shoulders and an even more impressive back.

I see ZERO point in doing biceps curls unless you are already chinning.

Use one arm rows, seated rows and bent over lateral raises all as alternatives to chins. Keep varying the reps also eg do a day where you do 50chins with no weight (keep taking breaks until you get to 50 (50 could be any number) then weighted for 4-6reps etc

rubadub

Transform wrote: »

Under hand grip or parallel grip is best really as you can lift the most - oh and no half getting chin over the bar and then lowering only until the arms are slightly bent - arms should be fully extended (with tension) at the bottom.

What do you make of a mixed grip? I have been doing some of them recently. i.e. on hand over, one under. Also sometimes I do really high chins, lower chest to the bar, are these worthwhile doing, or is chin over bar good enough.

Transform wrote: »

Overhand grip, from my experience, will always give people problems with the shoulders over time.

I have seen some advise pullups, but usually military minded people, where it translated to functional strength, climbing walls etc. I do pullups on some building structures, do you have any tips on protecting the shoulders? Are pullups working other muscles or do you think just stick with the chins.

Also I do "ring-ups" on gymnastic rings, which is a cross between both, since your hand can twist around, saving the shoulders. Maybe I should stick to these instead of pullups, and keep up the static chinups too?

Transform wrote: »

I see ZERO point in doing biceps curls unless you are already chinning.

Is that a typo, did you mean you should do curls if not chinning? I still do one arm assisted negative curls about once a week. I also do weighted negatives while chinning sometimes, maybe 6 normal reps, and 4-5 negatives straight after. The negatives take it out of me, and the next time I usually stick to unweighted ones.

Hanley

rubadub wrote: »

You mentioned doing 100 chins a while ago, how many sets was that? how long a break between etc? any particular reason for doing it?
I do a lot of weighted ones and am going to try it with weight on my feet so I can lean them in front or behind to hit different areas.

I did it with 6x10 and 8x5. Took about half an hour in total. no real reason behind it, I just wanted to try it out!!

I've done 3x8 with 15kg hanging off me in the last few days, quite easily too. I'm hoping to do 25kg for sets of 8 in the next few weeks.

Transform

Changing grip is just for variety as is changing the rep range. What matters most is that your getting stronger and adding more weight once you can do over 8 normal chins.

With regard soulder issues - the majority of people i deal with work in fairly sedentary jobs which means desk and car for most of the day and they tend to have fairly rounded shoulders so i only put in chins once we have done 3-4 months of back/shoulder exercises that help set the shoulders back into the right position i.e. rows, scap raises, bent over lateral raises, straight leg deadlifts i find help here also for the top of the movement.

again as i said i see absolutely ZERO point in doing biceps curls if you are not already doing chin ups, for example, 16-25yr old guys in the gym fannying around with 3-4 different biceps/triceps exercises and they don't chin or dip!!!! And then they wonder why they only added 6lbs to a 11stone body in 6 months, oh and when is the last time you saw these same guys doing leg work - mickey mouse leg extensions and 3inch leg presses don't count

rubadub

Hanley wrote: »

I did it with 6x10 and 8x5. Took about half an hour in total. no real reason behind it, I just wanted to try it out!!

Thought it might have been just for the sake of it, I'm the same! That is the weird thing with bodyweight exercises, I often do high reps just to see how many I can do, while I would never try and do 20reps+ with weights. Also I have a bar in my room so can do them just passing by, putting a dip belt on takes time. Another method to make them harder is to simply actively lift or lower yourself with one hand more than the other. I can do around 20chins but I can reduce this to whatever rep range I want simply by focusing on one arm more, usually I do this just on the negative phase.

I would like to one day do a one arm chin (proper 1 arm, not hand on wrist) but I have heard you can get tennis elbow injuries from it, by using the both hands you avoid this twisting, the other hand simply keeps you in the normal position without aiding too much. If people find it hard to use one arm more just use 2-3 fingers on the hand you intend to be weak.

Hanley wrote: »

I've done 3x8 with 15kg hanging off me in the last few days, quite easily too. I'm hoping to do 25kg for sets of 8 in the next few weeks.

I would say you will get that easy, I am 3x8 with 20kg at the moment, but then I weigh 20kg less than you. I did a 1RM chin with 50kg last week, ~20stone in total, might need a stronger bar soon!

Transform wrote: »

With regard soulder issues - the majority of people i deal with work in fairly sedentary jobs which means desk and car for most of the day and they tend to have fairly rounded shoulders so i only put in chins once we have done 3-4 months of back/shoulder exercises that help set the shoulders back into the right position i.e. rows, scap raises, bent over lateral raises, straight leg deadlifts i find help here also for the top of the movement.

Right, it may not be as much of a worry to me so, I have never experienced any difficulty or pain doing them, think I will stick to the rings all the same.

BrianD3

If you can do a weighted chin with +50 kg at a BW of ~75 kg then you are not too far away from doing a 1 arm chin. A 1 arm chin is generally considered to require less strength than a two arm chinup with 100% of BW strapped on. However the one armer requires more technique and some elbow tendonitis is almost inevitable while training for it.

Re: shoulder problems I have been doing pullups (overhand grip) with relatively big weights for several years and have not experienced any. I use a shoulder width grip. From what i've read, wide grip pullups can cause shoulder problems.

A useful pullup variation to do is a partial range pullup with a weight >1RM. Because the sticking point in a pullup is near the top, if you exclusively do full range pullups you might not be hitting the lower, stronger part of the movement as hard as you can. Make the bottom part stronger and theen when you go back to full ROM you'll hit the sticking point with more speed.

Climate Expert

What do you lads use to hang weights off you? I'm just stuck to latching a dumbell in between my feet.

BrianD3

What do you lads use to hang weights off you?

Dipping belt, cost me 30 quid from Workout World. The chain was pretty weak and after it inevitably broke I replaced it with a much stronger chain from a hardware shop.

Transform

did the same myself - get a dip/chin belt.

I used to hold a dumbbell in between my legs before i got the belt - got up to holding a 30kg for my dips before the bruises got too much to take and my wife started getting concerned!

Climate Expert

Transform wrote: »

did the same myself - get a dip/chin belt.

I used to hold a dumbbell in between my legs before i got the belt - got up to holding a 30kg for my dips before the bruises got too much to take and my wife started getting concerned!

ha, the exercise becomes mroe about using your leg muscles to balance the dumbell rather than doing a pull up.
I've just ordered on online for 20 quid. By the end of hte summer I want to be repping 20KG.

rubadub

BrianD3 wrote: »

If you can do a weighted chin with +50 kg at a BW of ~75 kg then you are not too far away from doing a 1 arm chin. A 1 arm chin is generally considered to require less strength than a two arm chinup with 100% of BW strapped on. However the one armer requires more technique and some elbow tendonitis is almost inevitable while training for it.

hmm, I would have thought you would want to be able to do more than 100% BW, because of the extra technique and twisting involved. If I can do 75kg with both hands at a weight of 75kg then each hand is chinning 75kg. If I do a standing military press or curl I can lift more than twice with a barbell than I can with a dumbell- the bar makes it easier for me since I am not having to incorporate as many stabilising muscles. Most could bench more with a bar than with dumbells (i.e. 100kg bar Vs 2x50kg dumbells). And I would have thought, for me anyway, that this is even more pronounced doing a chinup with one arm, as your weight it very shifted to one side. If you have any good links please post them, this is a good site http://www.beastskills.com/OneArmPull.htm

If you stand on a scale you can do an isometric pull on the chinning bar, look at the scale and you can see how much more you would need to do the pull. I think I was 25-30kg off last time I checked. But that is just to begin the lift off the ground, not a full chin.

For anybody wondering the common convention similar to the chinup/pullup confusion

This is a one hand chinup

While this is a one arm chinup (a LOT harder!)

BrianD3 wrote: »

Dipping belt, cost me 30 quid from Workout World. The chain was pretty weak and after it inevitably broke I replaced it with a much stronger chain from a hardware shop.

I have the ironmind belt, I had read of chains snapping so was worried, the ironmind one gets great reviews, and is rated to ridiculous loads, they make stuff for strongman contests etc. Was about €50 delivered from their own store, might be even cheaper now with the dollar. I also got 3-4 magazines sent free after the purchase with interesting articles and crazy strongman equipment.

You can also stick the plates in a back pack, or a combination of back pack and dumbell on the feet.

BrianD3

rubadub wrote: »

hmm, I would have thought you would want to be able to do more than 100% BW, because of the extra technique and twisting involved. If I can do 75kg with both hands at a weight of 75kg then each hand is chinning 75kg.

Jim Bathurst of the beastskills site can do a OAC but is still a fair bit away from the +100% added two armer and i've heard read similar thing from other posters on the dragondoor site. Personally I got the +100% several months before getting the OAP but I had injuries specific to the OAP also I reckon my OAP form was deficient. My OAP form with my non dominant hand is still quite poor and uncoordinated

I think what happens is "looser" form can be used in the one arm versions and if you have good technique the twisting etc. ceases to be a problem and may even help if you can harness it. Also I reckon that with the one arm versions timing and muscle firing etc. are more important.

Hard to know however...

rubadub

BrianD3 wrote: »

Jim Bathurst of the beastskills site can do a OAC but is still a fair bit away from the +100% added two armer and i've heard read similar thing from other posters on the dragondoor site..

Very interesting, I will have a read on dragondoor, I have only read the articles there, not the posts. I was saying at 100% BW I would be lifting 75kg with each hand but this is not really true, just like you cannot equate pushups directly with weight, i.e. my upper arms are static so I am not really lifting their weight, and I reckon if I put on 20kg of fat tomorrow (venly dispersed all over the body) I could do more than I could with 20kg on a belt today,

BrianD3 wrote: »

I think what happens is "looser" form can be used in the one arm versions and if you have good technique the twisting etc. ceases to be a problem and may even help if you can harness it. Also I reckon that with the one arm versions timing and muscle firing etc. are more important.

Makes sense when you put it like that. There was a link to an interview with a chinning expert on beastskills, some guy was having difficulty and another experienced guy was saying just twist into it and he flew up doing a OAC.

rubadub

BrianD3 wrote: »

Jim Bathurst of the beastskills site can do a OAC but is still a fair bit away from the +100% added two armer

he is just 10lb away now
http://www.beastskills.com/training.htm

He had been doing reverse bicep curls with a 2" bar to get over a weakness, this was pointed out on another forum where people were discussing isolation vs compound exercise, and that one could help another. I have 2x6" long, 40mm diameter PVC tubes on my bar that I can move in place for chinning with, really works the forearms well. I might try some thicker ones too.