What does it take to break "The Big 3" in the marathon?

--amadeus--

It looks like a few of us are around the same sort of pace - 3:00 - 3:30ish and I would imagine that anyone in and around that speed has an ambition to one day crack the big 3 (well I know I do!)

Anyone out there done it? What is the general feeling on what's required? Is it just a case of doing high mileage or is there a level of talent that's also needed?

aburke

On my third attempt, I broke 3 hours in Dublin last year.

It was technically my first attempt at sub 3.
I had run 3:33 in 2005, 3:13 2006, all in Dublin

Its hard to pinpoint what the trick is.

In my opinion.. You WILL need
1. A few years of running. 6 month of big mileage wouldn't cut it, I reckon you'll need a few years in your legs
2. Plenty of miles [hardly a secret]
3. Discipline - I spend the first 16 miles just holding back, and sticking to race pace.
4. Discipline part two - you need to train on days when you don't want to
5. 6 months training uninterrupted by injury
6. Everything going right on the day

and lastly...
7. LUCK

I ran 24 miles with a guy who had trained pretty much like I did. I pushed on at 24, just because I could. He still ran steady, but couldn't find an extra gear at all. He finished in 3:00:01

Best of luck to all attempting to go sub 3.
It a magic feeling, knowing all the hard work paid off.

I had planned to run in Berlin, but that has been scuppered by injury, and I might go for Dublin again this year.

Peckham

Thanks for posting that report - looks like I'm in a reasonably similar situation as to where you are when you broke 3. I did 3:26 in Dublin 2006, 3:06 in Dublin 2007 and hoping for sub-3 this time out. Wasn't trying to break 3 on either of my previous attempts, and reached my goal on both occasions (i.e. goal first time was to finish, and hopefully go sub-3.30, goal second time was qualify for Boston).

The discipline bit is the one I think I need to work on, in particular not cut runs when I get home from work because I'm tired/lazy/unmotivated. Am using the same training plan as last year (Pfitz 18/55), but willing to tweak the plan upwards a bit....what's more beneficial - introduce longer runs or increase the intensity of some of the speed sessions? Hoping to do both, but wondering where I'll see a better gain.

Racing Flat

aburke wrote: »

I ran 24 miles with a guy who had trained pretty much like I did. I pushed on at 24, just because I could. He still ran steady, but couldn't find an extra gear at all. He finished in 3:00:01

Ouch!

BJohnson

aburke wrote: »

I ran 24 miles with a guy who had trained pretty much like I did. I pushed on at 24, just because I could. He still ran steady, but couldn't find an extra gear at all. He finished in 3:00:01

Poor Maurice - that still breaks my heart!

Enduro

A friend of mine did 2:59:59

Its amazing the horrendous difference between triumph and disaster that 2 seconds causes after all that time!

--amadeus--

That must have been more painful than the run!

Thanks ABurke, great post. What kind of mileage were you doing before that race?

I'm not sure if I want to target sub 3 this time round. I have three years training behind me now (started running in July 2005) and I am planning decent miles this time (30 & 40 miles for the last two weeks, planning to up that to 50 this week and up again the week after). The discipline I don't know about - no run yesterday and tomorow looks shaky because of work.

History is 4:26 / 4:00:06 / 3:44 / 3:37 / 3:33 / 3:24:58 / 3:15:06 and I think that going from 3:15 to 2:59:59 in one jump may be a bit mutch, if I'm even capable of that. I'll maybe target 3:05 - 3:10 this time and hope for sub 3 in the spring.

Peckham

Great consistency there Amadeus - a nice pattern of improvements, but as you say, it may take a sub 3.10 before you can make the jump to sub-3.

Maybe go for your sub 3.10 (which would be Boston qualifying time if you're a younger male), and then head over there in April to go sub-3. That would be an achievement, albeit a tough one!

--amadeus--

I wish! I clocked my Boston time this spring, I needed 3:15. I was actually thinking of going to Rotterdam again - if ever there was a race that could be run fast that has to be it

Euchrid

Amadeus - I was in very similar boat last year.. Had worked my PB down to 3:14, so went into Dublin hoping to maybe break 3:10 and qualify for Boston.. Got the best training I'd ever had in the run in and and a good day... found myself 3km out with a chance of a 3hr and when I realised I had a chance of an unexpected 3hr... Well that's some motivation, I got my 10th wind from I dont know where and took off for those last few kms, passed I don't know how many people and hit the line with a full minute to spare.

Everything just came together that day, so I'd say that while it's a big jump, there is no reason it can't be done! The only downside was I lost my sequence of ever-improving PBs.. slipped back a few minutes after that one, but will get there again before the year is out!

TheRoadRunner

Peckham wrote: »

what's more beneficial - introduce longer runs or increase the intensity of some of the speed sessions? Hoping to do both, but wondering where I'll see a better gain.

In my opinion an increase in longer runs is more beneficial. I just find you get great strength from them that allows you to really dig in.

I am an advocate of speed sessions however. Presently I'm doing a session of
400s once a week and will gradually increase the number of repetitions over the coming weeks. I don't mind if I get slightly slower as I increase the number.

Stupid_Private

I think motivation and discipline are the most important... and some luck. Also what's considered high mileage to some isn't to others and what works for some doesn't work for others. I never went above 18miles on my Sunday runs last year and that worked fine for me.

My two best marathons though have been run when I've not targeted a time - just gone out and run. Two that I've targeted times on I've ended up blowing up on...

I've found kicking alcohol to touch in the weeks leading up to it helping as well. Actually mainly just beer. Drinking wine hasn't been a problem for some reason!

Racing Flat

Stupid_Private wrote: »

I never went above 18miles on my Sunday runs last year and that worked fine for me.

Worked damned fine if you got a 2.46 - what did the rest of your training entail? Thanks.

--amadeus--

Good motivational stories in there!

I'm def. going to try and get more longer runs in. I uped my midweek runs from 6 - 10 to 10 - 15 for the last marathon and it worked well. I'm hoping taht an increase in overall mileage, keeping teh midlength midweek runs and doing more 20 - 22 milers in the training will build my stamina. Pace isn't usually an issue - my last mile in Roterdam was 6:40 - but consistancy of pace is.

Clum

I'm targeting my first sub 3 this year aswell. Ran 3.08 a few months back and approached it one km at a time, no positive or negative splits, just a steady pace all the way (in theory).

I'd actually trained for a 3.15 but my training went better than expected so in the few weeks before the marathon I decided to go for a 3.10. This meant running an average of about 4 mins 30 seconds per km.

Using something like the McMillan Running Calculator and inputting a target marathon time of 3 hours 10 you need to be able to run a 10K in 40 mins 29 seconds, or 4.03 per km. And a half marathon in 1.30.05, or 4.17 per km.

I achieved these first so had a good idea as to where I stood....

However, just to knock 10 mins off the marathon time and hit 3 hours, using the same logic and calculator, you need to be able to run the full marathon at 4.16 per km, that's faster than just the half marathon pace required for a 3.10 marathon!

I'll stick with the high mileage in training but I really need to improve my running speeds to accomplish this target so I will be doing more speed sessions and tempo sessions than I did in preperation for my last marathon.

Step one has been completed though, I've managed to go quicker than the required time for a 10K (38.21 McMillan reckons) and next up is accomplishing the half marathon time of 1.25.21...

I'm sure some will argue against my approach but for me personally it works.

Peckham

Looks like we have a boards.ie pace group for October 27th!

Stupid_Private

Racing Flat wrote: »

Worked damned fine if you got a 2.46 - what did the rest of your training entail? Thanks.

Looking at my schedule it doesn't look as structured as I remembered it...

At its peak the training was something like this:
Monday 8-10 miles
Tuesday Fartlek session covering 8-10 miles 16 x 1 minute or 8 x 2 minutes
Wednesday 13 miles
Thursday 8-10 miles
Friday Fartlek session covering 8-10 miles 16 x 1 minute
Saturday off
Sunday 18 miles (There were only three 18 miles, before that they were all 15/16)

In the last 10 weeks there were plenty of races every other weekend which obviously changed that pattern around somewhat. A 7k race 10 weeks before, 10 miles in Rathcoole in September (great race, shame it's gone this year), Phoenix park half and 5 mile in phoenix park 3 weeks before.

Peckham

Stupid_Private wrote: »

In the last 10 weeks there were plenty of races every other weekend which obviously changed that pattern around somewhat. A 7k race 10 weeks before, 10 miles in Rathcoole in September (great race, shame it's gone this year), Phoenix park half and 5 mile in phoenix park 3 weeks before.

Interested to read this. I've decided to only do a limited amount of races this summer. Was actually just thinking of doing Longford Half and Mooathon. Would also have done adidas 10 mile, but it's the week before Longford Half which I want to take a good shot at trying to go sub-1.25.

Am wondering now if I need to include more short distance races (i.e. of the 10k variety).

--amadeus--

Very interesting - flies totally in the face of everything else I've read or been told, which is the usual mantra of "miles make winners"! Would I be right in saying that the schedule had no really long or short sessions but that they were all quite intense? Did you have any fallback weeks? How many build up races and what kind of performances did you do? Lastly would you consider yourself to be a "natural" - does running come easy to you? (apologies for so many questions, very interested)

Pace group sounds good, as long as someone brings a pushchair in case I get tired....

Stupid_Private

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Very interesting - flies totally in the face of everything else I've read or been told, which is the usual mantra of "miles make winners"!

There certainly are a lot of miles in that schedule - I think the most I did in a week was 65 and it was usually there are there abouts.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Would I be right in saying that the schedule had no really long or short sessions but that they were all quite intense?

The only really intense sessions were the Tuesday and Friday. The rest were all at an easy pace, including the long runs which were tough just because they were long... the pace certainly wasn't fast.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Did you have any fallback weeks?

I suppose the weeks that I raced would be the fall back weeks. If I was racing 5 miles on the Saturday the Thursday and Friday would be easy and then the Sunday off before restarting into everything on the Monday.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

How many build up races and what kind of performances did you do?

In the last 10 weeks there were 4 races with the distances gradually going up. Before then there were plenty of races in the 10k range during the summer

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Lastly would you consider yourself to be a "natural" - does running come easy to you?

Natural? Not at all... I just enjoy it

RacoonQueen

aburke wrote: »

I ran 24 miles with a guy who had trained pretty much like I did. I pushed on at 24, just because I could. He still ran steady, but couldn't find an extra gear at all. He finished in 3:00:01

Ouch!

Abhainn

Peckham wrote: »

Interested to read this. I've decided to only do a limited amount of races this summer. Was actually just thinking of doing Longford Half and Mooathon. Would also have done adidas 10 mile, but it's the week before Longford Half which I want to take a good shot at trying to go sub-1.25.

Am wondering now if I need to include more short distance races (i.e. of the 10k variety).

For Berlin prep I have also planned the Longford half where I hope to get into the 1:26's but now I think the 10 miler the week before might not be too smart. Will probably subsitute the 10 miler that weekend for a long 20 instead as the weeks are flying by
A 10k the second week Sept looks like a possibility though

Racing Flat

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Very interesting - flies totally in the face of everything else I've read or been told, which is the usual mantra of "miles make winners"!

As SP himself said, there were miles there - just because there was nothing over 18, averaging 65miles a week probably ticks the miles makes winners box.

Also, in relation to miles makes winners, got to be careful about this 30 'quality' miles a week might be better than 80 'junk' miles...

Racing Flat

Stupid_Private wrote: »

Monday 8-10 miles
Tuesday Fartlek session covering 8-10 miles 16 x 1 minute or 8 x 2 minutes
Wednesday 13 miles
Thursday 8-10 miles
Friday Fartlek session covering 8-10 miles 16 x 1 minute
Saturday off
Sunday 18 miles (There were only three 18 miles, before that they were all 15/16)

Great training. I don't think I could manage a 13 on a Wednesday after a Tuesday session, but maybe that's because our Tuesday sessions are maybe too hard for that as we still have an eye on a few 10k and half marathon races prior to the big one. Will try to stretch the Thursday run out a bit though over next 2 months, with some of it at marathon pace.

Racing Flat

Abhainn wrote: »

For Berlin prep I have also planned the Longford half where I hope to get into the 1:26's but now I think the 10 miler the week before might not be too smart. Will probably subsitute the 10 miler that weekend for a long 20 instead as the weeks are flying by
A 10k the second week Sept looks like a possibility though

10mile a week before is too much - definitely won't perform at your best, so pick one or the other, the half being the better option with a marathon coming up IMO. I wouldn't do a 20 the weekend before either, if you want to do your best in the half. Maybe 15 or so. I'll be doing a 10k race the week before, hopefully not flat out, rather a very hard tempo run, by hopefully I mean it's a team event so I'm hoping going 2mins slower than my best will be sufficient...

Edit, sorry about the multi-posts, 520posts in and I still can't work out how to 'multiquote' if that's the right term - any tips?

copacetic

hit the button to the right of quote with the + on it on every post you want to quote, they will change colour. when you have picked them all hit the post reply button in bottom left and you get a proper edit window with everyone quoted. good thread people..

Abhainn

Racing Flat wrote: »

10mile a week before is too much - definitely won't perform at your best, so pick one or the other, the half being the better option with a marathon coming up IMO. I wouldn't do a 20 the weekend before either, if you want to do your best in the half. Maybe 15 or so. I'll be doing a 10k race the week before, hopefully not flat out, rather a very hard tempo run, by hopefully I mean it's a team event so I'm hoping going 2mins slower than my best will be sufficient...

?

Yes RF on reflection a 20 mile the week before is a bit much when trying for a PB at Longford half the following week. A shorter longer run would be wiser. Thanks for advise.

--amadeus--

Racing Flat wrote: »

As SP himself said, there were miles there - just because there was nothing over 18, averaging 65miles a week probably ticks the miles makes winners box.

Also, in relation to miles makes winners, got to be careful about this 30 'quality' miles a week might be better than 80 'junk' miles...

65 miles is certainly high (my own mileage would have been 40 - 50 before Rotterdam by comparison) but I meant the comment in relation to some plans and programs I have seen sub 3 runners following. P&D have plans with 90+ mpw for example and I know of someone who claims anymale under 40 can go sub 3 if tehy average 100 miles per week. Even at the midrange P&D plans have double sessions and most fast marathon runners have a series of killer intervals in thier schedules.

My problem with those plans is that I couldn't see how anyone with a life could follow them, wheras SPs plan looked doable for someone training at 7 - 8 m/mile pace and trying to hold down a job and not spend thier entire free time on the road.

hunnymonster

--amadeus-- wrote: »

My problem with those plans is that I couldn't see how anyone with a life could follow them, wheras SPs plan looked doable for someone training at 7 - 8 m/mile pace and trying to hold down a job and not spend thier entire free time on the road.

It is not so much people with a life versus the rest of us, the important distinction (IMO) is people with kids and a non-running spouse compared to singles or people with a running partner. In my last job I was working 80-90 hours a week (albeit a lot of those were on-call) and still training up to 30 hours a week. Then again, I don't have kids and my partner trains more than I do so it's relatively easy to fit it all in.

--amadeus--

Ahhh but MrsA is totally uninterested in training and running and I have the two rugrats, even getting out for a short run at the weekend is a challenge. If it wasn't for teh fact I'm self-employed and can skive off during the day I'd probably never run

hunnymonster

It's only 3 minutes, stop making excuses
And with that thought, I'm off to the track. First track session since I got back training. I'm a teeny bit scared!

TheRoadRunner

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Ahhh but MrsA is totally uninterested in training and running and I have the two rugrats, even getting out for a short run at the weekend is a challenge. If it wasn't for teh fact I'm self-employed and can skive off during the day I'd probably never run

I'm never procreating !

--amadeus--

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

I'm never procreating !

No need, I can sell you two (slightly soiled) for a knock down price...

TheRoadRunner

--amadeus-- wrote: »

No need, I can sell you two (slightly soiled) for a knock down price...

I have to say you aren't tempting me.

Peckham

hunnymonster wrote: »

It's only 3 minutes, stop making excuses
And with that thought, I'm off to the track. First track session since I got back training. I'm a teeny bit scared!

Know how you feel. Had my first Lactate Threshold/Tempo session on Monday evening - was feeling nervous as I upped the pace towards half-marathon pace for the first time in a long time. Fortunately was able to hold it for the 4 miles that I planned, and felt damn good at the end (albeit glad to slow down again!). :cool:

--amadeus--

hunnymonster wrote: »

It's only 3 minutes, stop making excuses
And with that thought, I'm off to the track. First track session since I got back training. I'm a teeny bit scared!

as long as you promise not to raise the bar in Berlin, that's all I'm saying...

How did the track session go?

hunnymonster

May not do Berlin. It's very close to Florida and I'm supposed to be having an easy year.

Track session nearly killed me. It was supposed to be
wu
4x100 pick ups
8x800 @HR183
4x100 pick-ups
cd
but I cried off the last couple of 800's. Was out for an hour this morning and could still feel it in my legs.