Standard of Intercounty Refereeing

DDC1990

I would just like your thoughts on Intercounty Referee's these day's. Today we witnessed one of the worst refereeing performances, dare i say in the history of the GAA. The Referee for todays Munster Minor Football Final was an absolute joke. He whistled every touch on the shoulder, every two yards stolen for a line-ball, every short free called back and a young lad was Sent-Off for two very innocuous "fouls". He clearly played for the draw, when Kerry were 5-6 points up he gave very soft free's against them. He even changed the amount of added time he had up from 3 to 1 minute, as soon as the game was equalized. He was booed off the field (something that i don't think is right) for his performance by both fans for ruining a potentially good game.
As for the Senior referee, not since the infamous Paul Galvin incident have we seen such, baffling decisions to send players off. Nicholas Murphy did deserve his second yellow, but his first was pretty questionable. Then Marc Ó Sé, one of the games most respected defenders, got a Straight Red...for what? Two players challenged for the ball and Marc was tougher then the Cork player. Even JBM (a Cork legend!) said that it shouldn't have been even a yellow! And Darragh Ó Sé picked up a second yellow card for a push in midfield...something that happens at every kickout around the middle. A free? Yes. Yellow Card... No way!
Finally, a lot was made of Paul Galvin's "lack of respect for officials" Im not condoning what he did, but maybe the officials should start doing their job to a high enough standard, so that they earn that "respect".
The GAA need to vastly improve the quality of refereeing before we lose our young players to Soccer and Rugby.

blackbelt

DDC1990 wrote: »

I would just like your thoughts on Intercounty Referee's these day's. Today we witnessed one of the worst refereeing performances, dare i say in the history of the GAA. The Referee for todays Munster Minor Football Final was an absolute joke. He whistled every touch on the shoulder, every two yards stolen for a line-ball, every short free called back and a young lad was Sent-Off for two very innocuous "fouls". He clearly played for the draw, when Kerry were 5-6 points up he gave very soft free's against them. He even changed the amount of added time he had up from 3 to 1 minute, as soon as the game was equalized. He was booed off the field (something that i don't think is right) for his performance by both fans for ruining a potentially good game.
As for the Senior referee, not since the infamous Paul Galvin incident have we seen such, baffling decisions to send players off. Nicholas Murphy did deserve his second yellow, but his first was pretty questionable. Then Marc Ó Sé, one of the games most respected defenders, got a Straight Red...for what? Two players challenged for the ball and Marc was tougher then the Cork player. Even JBM (a Cork legend!) said that it shouldn't have been even a yellow! And Darragh Ó Sé picked up a second yellow card for a push in midfield...something that happens at every kickout around the middle. A free? Yes. Yellow Card... No way!
Finally, a lot was made of Paul Galvin's "lack of respect for officials" Im not condoning what he did, but maybe the officials should start doing their job to a high enough standard, so that they earn that "respect".
The GAA need to vastly improve the quality of refereeing before we lose our young players to Soccer and Rugby.

Oh here we go...another referee bashing session because my team lost....wah wah.

In fairness,from what I saw,the referee called everything right but I was working today while watching the match at the same time so until I see the Sunday Game (shudder) I will hold my final judgement until then.

PS. I can't wait for Puke Presenter Pat to give his analysis and presentation on yet another terrible Kerry display (against Derry and today) and Tomthepest to also share his insight.Watching the Munster Final today was refreshing.

Pride Fighter

The standard is shockingly bad. Collie Moran gets banned for something that was never a red card. Mark O'Se did a similar challenge except he used his shoulder to shield the ball and gets sent off for at most a yellow card.
No consistency
Games ruined
Ridiculous suspensions handed out by the CCCCCC (or however many C's its called)
Fans are feed up and are voting with their feet (no wonder the attendences are sh1t this year)

corcaighcailin9

It's the lack of consistency that drives me mad the most. I'd accept that refs are human and will never, ever get every decision right but not applying the rules fairly to both sides is what bugs me most.
On the sendings off, I though Nicholas Murphy probably deserved the first yellow but for the second, the Kerry player (Seamus Scanlon I think) put his head down and Murphy had already committed himself. In that situation, I felt a talking to or a show of the black book would have sufficed. However, minutes after that, Dara O Se cynically pulled back Pearse O Neill who was breaking through the Kerry defence. He was already on a yellow and the ref didn't even speak to him and punished him only by awarding the free against him. Absolutely zero consistency. I think Dara was sent off as much for constant infringing as anything else. He was clearly trying to antagonise young Pearse O Neill and I think I speak for an awful lot of GAA fans when I say I was delighted he got his comeuppance. He gets away with absolute murder in 99% of the games he plays and rarely is punished accordingly.
As for Marc O Se, I do feel sorry for him. I thought it looked a lot worse the first time I saw it and can only presume that from where the ref saw it, he thought it was a bad attempt at a challenge as well.
It will be interesting to see how the CCCC deals with these issues. No douby Kerry will feel victimised if both O Ses are suspended.

DDC1990

blackbelt wrote: »

Oh here we go...another referee bashing session because my team lost....wah wah.

Wow mature comment! I never said everything the ref did was against Kerry, i just said the standard of refereeing was poor. The sending off's were laughable. And the minor game was a joke. Thi sis not just my opinion, it was also the opinion of the Radio Kerry commentators. And as i said earlier Micheál Ó Muircheartigh and Jimmy Barry Murphy agreed that the 3 sending off's were soft at best.
Cork were the better team in the second half, no doubt. The ref cant put the ball over the bar for the opposition,. But this thread is about the standard of Refereeing, not about our 3-in-a-Row hopes being in tatters.
If you have nothing constructive to say, don't bother saying it.

As for CorcaighCailín: Your right Scanlon was going a bit low, but Nicholas Murphy was still careless. Also Darragh Ó Sé will definitely not be suspended because it was 2 Yellows. I hope the CCC will show a bit of sense and recind the card against Marc. A very clean player who was unlucky with the collision. Congrats anyway and good luck for the rest of the year. We'll meet ye in Croker later hopefully and set the record straight.

Pride Fighter

DDC1990 wrote: »

Wow mature comment! I never said everything the ref did was against Kerry, i just said the standard of refereeing was poor. The sending off's were laughable. And the minor game was a joke. Thi sis not just my opinion, it was also the opinion of the Radio Kerry commentators. And as i said earlier Micheál Ó Muircheartigh and Jimmy Barry Murphy agreed that the 3 sending off's were soft at best.
Cork were the better team in the second half, no doubt. The ref cant put the ball over the bar for the opposition,. But this thread is about the standard of Refereeing, not about our 3-in-a-Row hopes being in tatters.
If you have nothing constructive to say, don't bother saying it.

Blackbelt is a referee so he is going to defend his brothers. I think the refereeing has been shocking this year but at blackbelts level of refereeing (club level) they do a good job that can be very difficult. So dont judge his comment without taking that into account.

DDC1990

Sorry, im not on these boards long enough to know that. I understand of course the tough job that referee's have but at this level, come on! Still don't think Wah-Wah is very constructive :S

corcaighcailin9

DDC1990 wrote: »

Wow mature comment! I never said everything the ref did was against Kerry, i just said the standard of refereeing was poor. The sending off's were laughable. And the minor game was a joke. Thi sis not just my opinion, it was also the opinion of the Radio Kerry commentators. And as i said earlier Micheál Ó Muircheartigh and Jimmy Barry Murphy agreed that the 3 sending off's were soft at best.
Cork were the better team in the second half, no doubt. The ref cant put the ball over the bar for the opposition,. But this thread is about the standard of Refereeing, not about our 3-in-a-Row hopes being in tatters.
If you have nothing constructive to say, don't bother saying it.

As for CorcaighCailín: Your right Scanlon was going a bit low, but Nicholas Murphy was still careless. Also Darragh Ó Sé will definitely not be suspended because it was 2 Yellows. I hope the CCC will show a bit of sense and recind the card against Marc. A very clean player who was unlucky with the collision. Congrats anyway and good luck for the rest of the year. We'll meet ye in Croker later hopefully and set the record straight.

Bring it on

blackbelt

Maybe I jumped the gun with that comment but I just thought that you posted this thread because your team was beaten..it seemed a coincidence.

The best referees in the country are in my opinion McEneaney,Brian Crowe,Paddy Russell,Marty Duffy and Eddie Kinsella.I'm not too sure if Brian Crowe is still knocking around or not but his absence is very suspicious in line with his decision on the Meath-Cork game last year.

I think the standard of refereeing was very good at the start of the championship.However,since the Ward,Doherty and Moran incidents the standards of refereeing are going to be scrutinised.Todays events won't help.

When I watch the Sunday Game I'll post up my view.Given the amount of incidences (yellow cards) it is highly likely that one or two decisions were wrong.

Zzippy

Nicholas Murphy - deserved IMO. Already on a yellow and he made a silly tackle. Still, he won't be suspended so its not a major blow.
Marc O'Se - very very harsh. Think the ref must have thought he used the elbow, but on second viewing he may ask the CCCC to change it to a yellow. That would be justice, O'Se is not a dirty player at all.
Dara O'Se - well deserved I'm afraid. I lost count of his fouls, and the ref had already booked him and shown him the black book, so he was treading on very thin ice. Notice the Sunday Game didn't show another incident with him where he raised the elbow into a tackler's face, that went totally unpunished. Conor Counihan was going mad on the sideline asking the linesman to inform the referee. O'Se has gotten away with many similar chellenges over the years so I was quite happy to see him walk today. It didn't affect the game though, Cork had already won by that stage, and he won't be suspended so it doesn't really matter anyway.

Pure Cork

Dara Ó Sé deserved to go. He gets away with persistent fouling throughout games. Well done to the ref who finally caught him. He could've got a second yellow more than once in the second half.

Orizio

Basically, all physicality has gone out of soccer, and the GAA seems determined to carry on the 'good work' by getting refs to blow for any and all physical contact. Things like shoulders have practically gone out of both codes.

thirdmantackle

problem is that too many players now go into physical challenges looking to act the maggot.

they feign injury to get the opposition sent off

this often makes tackles look a lot worse than they actually are

GAA players are now being COACHED how to WIN a free ffs



I feel sorry for referees and the few honest players left playing the game.

Zzippy

Orizio wrote: »

Basically, all physicality has gone out of soccer, and the GAA seems determined to carry on the 'good work' by getting refs to blow for any and all physical contact. Things like shoulders have practically gone out of both codes.

I wouldn't say that. Refs are tightening up on unfair challenges, but a fair shoulder is still part and parcel of the game. There were quite a few good hard tackles made today that were let go, because they were fair. Kieran Donaghy made 2 superb shoulder tackles in a row, good hard fair challenges, and the ref had no problem with them, neither did the Cork players.

GAAman

thirdmantackle wrote: »

GAA players are now being COACHED how to WIN a free ffs

Are you for real?

This has been going on for a LONG time now this is nothing new

On topic yes the ref called alot more then he had to(munster senior match) but i didnt see any type of favoritisms between the teams he (the ref) seemed fair enough

Waylander

Pure Cork wrote: »

Dara Ó Sé deserved to go. He gets away with persistent fouling throughout games. Well done to the ref who finally caught him. He could've got a second yellow more than once in the second half.

No he didnt deserve to go. It was a ridiculous second card. If he was persistantly fouling, the ref should have waited for him to foul someone to send him off, not sent him off for fielding the ball in a way any midfielder in the country would be fully expected to challenge for it.

I thought all three sendngs off were very poor decisions. The refs seem to be a bit too whistle happy this year. That was not a dirty game yesterday, yet 3 men sent off????

thirdmantackle

of course I'm for real

every team is looking at every advantage they can squeeze out of a game

learning all the little tricks on how to win a free is part of this.

the other thing is how to crowd out a player and stop him playing the ball without giving away a free.

Waylander

GAAman wrote: »

Are you for real?

This has been going on for a LONG time now this is nothing new

On topic yes the ref called alot more then he had to(munster senior match) but i didnt see any type of favoritisms between the teams he (the ref) seemed fair enough

That was much the same in the Dublin Westmeath match. There was no favoritism shown, but there was no flow to the game, and this contirbuted to the match being a poor match. In the last few minutes of that game the ref gave a free to either team where there was clearly no foul in either case.

blackbelt

Nicolas Murphy can have no complaints.In my opinion he was lucky to get away with a second yellow as the tackle was high,dangerous and looked more intentional.

Marc O Se,similar type of incident to Collie Moran.He was going to protect the ball and the momentum of the Cork player crashing into him made it look worse.Thought it was a standard yellow card at best,he didn't exactly charge the Cork player,more held his ground and the Cork player came off worse.

Dara O Se,it was mentioned that he was persistently fouling.I didn't notice this when watching the game and working at the same time but if so he should be dealyt with by the referee.However,the ultimate decision that got him sent off seemed ridiculous to me.Kevin McStay was saying the ref made the correct decision.I didn't see it this way.I thought the referee could have waited for a more physical challenge to send him off.Dara (like Galvin) has been known to put in sly digs off the ball,however I think the decision against him yesterday wasn't right but hopefully he'll learn that he can't get away with everything in future.

Blackjack

blackbelt wrote: »

Nicolas Murphy can have no complaints.In my opinion he was lucky to get away with a second yellow as the tackle was high,dangerous and looked more intentional.

Marc O Se,similar type of incident to Collie Moran.He was going to protect the ball and the momentum of the Cork player crashing into him made it look worse.Thought it was a standard yellow card at best,he didn't exactly charge the Cork player,more held his ground and the Cork player came off worse.

Dara O Se,it was mentioned that he was persistently fouling.I didn't notice this when watching the game and working at the same time but if so he should be dealyt with by the referee.However,the ultimate decision that got him sent off seemed ridiculous to me.Kevin McStay was saying the ref made the correct decision.I didn't see it this way.I thought the referee could have waited for a more physical challenge to send him off.Dara (like Galvin) has been known to put in sly digs off the ball,however I think the decision against him yesterday wasn't right but hopefully he'll learn that he can't get away with everything in future.

Have to agree there.
For Marc O'Sé, I thought it was maybe a bit harsh having watched some of the replays but that said he definetly went for the Man and not the Ball into that tackle - he certainly did not have his eye on the ball you can from the replay. The Ref won't have had the benefit of Action Replay's and would have seen it from a very different angle, and had to make a decision on where he was seeing if from. It did look quite nasty and the Cork player was down for quite a bit, so there is a level of danger (i.e. Serious Neck injury) with that sort of tackle.

Dara O'Sé I've little sympathy for. I'd agree that getting a yellow for the tackle that sent him off was definetly harsh, but the Ref may well have spoken to him before about his persistent fouling.

Good game all the same - great comeback by Cork who I thought would not have had a prayer before the game.

dun459

Waylander wrote: »

No he didnt deserve to go. It was a ridiculous second card. If he was persistantly fouling, the ref should have waited for him to foul someone to send him off, not sent him off for fielding the ball in a way any midfielder in the country would be fully expected to challenge for it.

I thought all three sendngs off were very poor decisions. The refs seem to be a bit too whistle happy this year. That was not a dirty game yesterday, yet 3 men sent off????

Should have went to specsavers...

Waylander

dun459 wrote: »

Should have went to specsavers...

If that was what he got a second yellow for the Sunday game e3ditors should be shot. That was never shown on the highlights at all.

Tomthepost

blackbelt wrote: »

Oh here we go...another referee bashing session because my team lost....wah wah.

In fairness,from what I saw,the referee called everything right but I was working today while watching the match at the same time so until I see the Sunday Game (shudder) I will hold my final judgement until then.

PS. I can't wait for Puke Presenter Pat to give his analysis and presentation on yet another terrible Kerry display (against Derry and today) and Tomthepest to also share his insight.Watching the Munster Final today was refreshing.

Well firstly I would like to congratulate Cork on a wonderful second half display and a deserved victory.
In relation to refereeing I think that the GAA has really lost the plot. Murphy was a little unlucky perhaps but of all the sendings off his was the most understandable.
I am a like bit disgusted by a Kerryman seemingly at least over-reacting to both of the Murphy challenges.
When it gets to the stage of sending players of for a push in the back we are in trouble.
Mind you the same guys should have went to the line earlier for off the ball stuff.
As for a player in possession of the ball being sent off? Well the mind boggles!
The GAA needs to grab a hold of itself whatever refs have been told it is OTT and destroying the game.
I don't think the result would have been any different whatever and again well done Cork.

Killme00

GAAman wrote: »

Are you for real?

This has been going on for a LONG time now this is nothing new

On topic yes the ref called alot more then he had to(munster senior match) but i didnt see any type of favoritisms between the teams he (the ref) seemed fair enough

Yes Armagh have it down to a fine art at this stage

DDC1990

One other thing i'd like to add to this dicussion is peoples suggestions to improve on these refereeing standards, should there be an exam (taking common sense into the equasion) or would that just discourage people from becoming refs? They seem scarse enough as it is!
Blackbelt i would especially like to hear your thoughts on this, as you already are a ref at club (?) level. We have some good ref's, (i.e McEneaney) But others are very poor (i.e Bannon, Russell, and Ó Cnámha---formally known as Gerry Kinneavy who refereed that joke of a munster final a few years back with as many stoppages as a shaggin American Football game!!!)

blackbelt

DDC1990 wrote: »

One other thing i'd like to add to this dicussion is peoples suggestions to improve on these refereeing standards, should there be an exam (taking common sense into the equasion) or would that just discourage people from becoming refs? They seem scarse enough as it is!
Blackbelt i would especially like to hear your thoughts on this, as you already are a ref at club (?) level. We have some good ref's, (i.e McEneaney) But others are very poor (i.e Bannon, Russell, and Ó Cnámha---formally known as Gerry Kinneavy who refereed that joke of a munster final a few years back with as many stoppages as a shaggin American Football game!!!)

I think to improve the standards of refereeing in the country the GAA and the county referee's council really need to assess referees on a more regular basis.I know of plenty of Dublin referees in Dublin (and not necessarily from Dublin) that should be refereeing as they call a match down to a tee and are very very experienced.

Gary McCormack from Naomh Barrog is one of the top referees in Dublin and was literally a natural born referee.Then there is Gerry Barrett (from Galway) who taught me in school and I've seen him referee some very tough matches between not so nice teams and dealt with them in a manner which was best.Paddy Power is another top official while the Lambes (from my own club St Vincents) are also great referees.

We need referees like the aforementioned.All this media nit-picking and the intervention of the CCCC is ridiculous and is discouraging potential and new referees.The problem is that the internal assessment of referees in different counties is not carried out on a regular basis and I have the feeling that I have been assessed once without any feedback whatsoever at a minor match...the most difficult level you can referee at.

Had Gary McCormack refereed that match,I don't think we'd be talking about the O Se brothers today.Referees need to be assessed at club matches from minor to junior to senior club level.Then once they have made the grade to senior level,they should automatically be assessed a few months after over the course of 3-4 games as a referee can have a bad day.

I think the problem is that the pool of intercounty referees is quite small in proportion to the referees that referee at senior club level and this must be looked at.I don't necessarily think the best referees are refereeing at the highest level apart from some like McEneaney,Crowe,Kinsella,Duffy and Russell.

PS. I think Paddy Russell is a good referee.It is just unfortunate for him that he has got some infamous controversial matches over the last 13 years.

shiibata

blackbelt wrote: »

PS. I think Paddy Russell is a good referee.It is just unfortunate for him that he has got some infamous controversial matches over the last 13 years.

I have always thought Paddy Russell a terrible referee, once the going gets tough, he seems to have a knack of making things worse.

Tomthepost

shiibata wrote: »

I have always thought Paddy Russell a terrible referee, once the going gets tough, he seems to have a knack of making things worse.

Yeah pretty much sums Russell up i think!