Windows and Fire Reg's

Villain

Just had a meeting with a window sales man and he has said that my front windows will have to be french windows to allow for fire regs and have a bar at 800mm from the floor.

Do bedrooms downstairs in a house have to attain to fire regulations.

RKQ

All habital rooms (bedrooms) must comply fully with the Building Regulations.
All bedrooms must have a fire escape window ope.

The ope size has changed slightly / reinterpeted last year.

Can you explain what you mean by "French windows"?

Villain

May check my homebond book so, this have been a oversight so, nothing that can't be fixed now but the front elevation will look different in respect of windows.

My parent's house was only built 4 years ago and you wouldn't get out of any of the bedroom windows unless your under 4 foot tall?

RKQ

Sorry about that, but this has been enforced fully since 1999 or so.

Your parents must have suffered bad "design" or "inspection".
Still thats life...
It is possible to apply to your local Fire Officer for a letter of Exemption.
Its safety thats the important thing.

Compliance will Document B / Fire does save lives.

Slig

then that house doesnt comply with part B. from 97 there was a requirement to provide an alternative means of escape from a bedroom and its something I personally feel very strongly about.
There are regs on the size of the windows (min area 0.45SqM I think with a minimum width and height aswell) and they have to be between 800 and 1100 above the ground (even GF windows). All glass below 800mm above finished floor level has to be toughened glass.
what your window salesman was trying to say is that you should have a glazing bar at 1.1m above FFL with standard double glazing above and toughened below.
The problem is that PVC is very chunky and if you put this in it generally ends up at eye level when you are sitting down. Easier to put toughened throughout that window(s)

sydthebeat

Villain wrote: »

Just had a meeting with a window sales man and he has said that my front windows will have to be french windows to allow for fire regs and have a bar at 800mm from the floor.

Do bedrooms downstairs in a house have to attain to fire regulations.

i have had clarification from the department on this very issue.

The ground floor bedroom windows DO NOT have to have a guarding bar at 800 above floor level once the distance from the cill externally to the path is LESS THAN 1400mm

Therefore in most case ground floor bedroom windows can go as low as you want once the distance from the cill to the path doesnt exceed 1400mm

This is the ammendment to the regs published last year, i think...
Paragraph 2.4 to read:
Guarding should be provided for any window, the sill of which
is more than 1400 mm above external ground level and is less
than 800 mm in height above internal floor level. Where a window
is capable of being opened, special care must be taken to ensure
that the guarding must remain in place and effective at all times (see
Diagram 6).

muffler

But you do still need toughened/safety glass at that height hence a transom of some type will be needed.

sydthebeat

muffler wrote: »

But you do still need toughened/safety glass at that height hence a transom of some type will be needed.

not if the whole pane is constructed in that manner, which it should unless otherwise designed into it.

muffler

sydthebeat wrote: »

not if the whole pane is constructed in that manner, which it should unless otherwise designed into it.

Maybe I misread your last post but what about the bottom of the opening being 800 - 1100 above ffl or is this over ruled by the 1400mm external measurement?

sydthebeat

muffler wrote: »

Maybe I misread your last post but what about the bottom of the opening being 800 - 1100 above ffl or is this over ruled by the 1400mm external measurement?

the 800 - 1100 'rule' only applies in situations where the distance from the external cill to the ground is in excess of 1400mm.... otherwise the cill can be as low as you want thus the opening section can also be as low as you want.
In most cases this applies to ground floor bedroom windows.

muffler

sydthebeat wrote: »

the 800 - 1100 'rule' only applies in situations where the distance from the external cill to the ground is in excess of 1400mm.... otherwise the cill can be as low as you want thus the opening section can also be as low as you want.
In most cases this applies to ground floor bedroom windows.

I see now what you mean. I hadnt seen the addition to your other post with the data included.

It would still mean that for example if you had a 1700 high/deep window in a bedroom of a bungalow that the glass would have to be toughened though regardless of the fire aspect.

sydthebeat

yes.

it would have to be toughened to the minimum height as required under the BS, but say in a case where the whole window is one pane ie no transoms, then that pane would have to be totally toughened.

muffler

sydthebeat wrote: »

yes.

it would have to be toughened to the minimum height as required under the BS, but say in a case where the whole window is one pane ie no transoms, then that pane would have to be totally toughened.

Yeah thats exactly what I was referring to. Cheers.

Villain

Ah great info sydthebeat, thanks a million, so toughened glass and two full length french windows is the way to go.

Great info lads

Mellor

There mistakes in this thread. People meant well, but its after getting messed around,


OP, you don't need french windows, the salesman was scamming you imo. People have also messed the required sized up and didn't explan them well.

muffler

Mellor wrote: »

There mistakes in this thread. People meant well, but its after getting messed around,

Can you elaborate please?

Mellor

The issues are being confused I think. I've spent alot of time on this recently, and had to go above and beyond, as it was a DOE job.

Toughened Glass:
Any glazing below 800mm, that is wider than 250mm, needs to be toughen glass.
This is unrelated to guarding required at opes.

Guarding at windows
Any window where the external ground level (or the level of an terrace adjacent, eg balcony) is greater than 1400mm below the cill, permenant guarding is required.
Guarding is to be at a level of 800-1100mm. Generally it will be the wall below the ope, with the cill at 800-1100. The guarding can be glazing, but it must be toughened, but it has to be fixed glazing. A transom at 800-1100 with toughened belowin an opening section does not comply. In that case you need a fixed bar at the required height.


Escape windows
Need to have a cill at 800-1100 when the outside ground level is greater than 1400. Or a cill at 600-1100 in a roof situation.
The window needs an opening area of 0.33m2, and clear with and height of at least 450mm

As you can see, you dont not need a french window to comply with this. Which is far far beyond the regs. I'm surprise that nobody made this clear.
Responses such as"you need escape window" are pointless if you don't define an escape window.
Obviously this isnt directed at everyone, some posts were spot on, and some will be aware of all I posted here already. But I repeated everything regarding window as im a sucker for for completeness of info

muffler

All good points Mellor and I can see where there is confusion. Like a lot of threads things are thrown in (well intended mostly) that have a relevance in one way but sometimes the comments can muddy the waters.

This thread went from discussing if bedroom windows on the ground floor have to be fire escape to talking about guarding and toughened glass. Both linked to the OP's query but I agree that the wrong advice may have been given.

Villain could you just clarify if it is indeed full height french windows that you are referring to - i.e. 2100mm high.

Mellor

muffler wrote: »

Villain could you just clarify if it is indeed full height french windows that you are referring to - i.e. 2100mm high.

I think he may be, infact almost sure.

Ah great info sydthebeat, thanks a million, so toughened glass and two full length french windows is the way to go.

Great info lads

I think the def of escape should of been posted at the start, that prevented the confusion. The posts on glazing and guarding were great posts, clear and concise, but with no requirement for escape defined previously, a layperson might easily take it up wrong

RKQ

I see where you are coming from Mellor. We did go abit off topic, but the OP seemed happy with the information supplied / debated.

I was the first to mention a bedroom requiring a means of escape and suggesting low cill levels were involved.The OP made no mention of this, I was simply trying to understand the advice he / she had been given. Trying to get into the mind of the Salesman.

The question was abit vague, so I offered a "possibility" that the salesman was referring to cill height. I didn't get into the requirements of an escape window, as this was not asked for in the original question.

A lay person could easily ask for relevant details if they were interested in same.

One must also assume that the Salesman was looking at drawings, prepared by a professional, complying with Building Control.

However, others were kind enought to reference page numbers of Document B, freely available in pdf download.

I also feel that too much information can be a problem at times. We are all here to help where possible, without confusing the Op with rafts of technical data.

Such technical information can be confusing and off-putting, isolating the OP. (I'd hate to put an Op off asking a question, for fear of souding silly.)

Villain

Hi guys, the problem I have is my plans give a window that is only 600 mm from ffl, they are 2m high but only 1m wide so he said that if I split the window down the middle I won't have enough opening to make it a fire escape window, the drop outside will not over 1m so I think that negates the need for a bar at 800mm but can someone work out if half of a 1m wide opening is enough for the regs or do I need french style windows where each side opens?

Thanks for all the help and pms guys

joebre

Hope OK to post this query here as Post Title relates to my query as well.
Bought new 2 storey house, with windows in gables and 2 Velux windows in middle bedroom. Was given Certificate of Compliance with Planning & Building Regs. It said everything was in order.
I have recently realised that the Velux windows are too high for escape. The vertical wall in the bedroom is 1.5 high and the cill of the Velux is almost 2.0m over the floor. The Velux are also centre pivoted.
I rang the local Building Control Officer and he said that the cill height could be 1100mm, the same as standard windows.
Don't know how he could accept this as TGD Part B says "600 mm in the case of a rooflight".
When I took the matter up with the builder, he showed me a prototype that he had shown to the Building Control Officer.
It was like a bedside locker, but about 1.0m high. You opened what looked like the top drawer and a series of 4 or 5 steps folded out. This brought you up to about 600mm from the cill. The Velux would need to be change to top-hung to give a clear unobstructed opening of 450mm.
What would people think of this.
I am surprised that the BCO could allow a variation of the 600mm rule. I am told that acceptance of the folding stairs is to be agreed between the householder and the builder. There are other house similar to mine in the development.

topcatcbr

See below as taken from TGD part B for dwellings

(a) The window should have an openable section
which can provide an unobstructed clear open
area of at least 0.33 m2 with a minimum width
and height of 450 mm (the route through the
window may be at an angle rather than straight
through). The opening section should be capable
of remaining in the position which provides this
minimum clear open area.

Villain- If you split the window down the middle and hinge it as for a door (not using sliding friction hinges) you should comply (just about) with the min width.

(b) The bottom of the window opening should be
not more than 1100 mm and not less than 800
mm (600 mm in the case of a rooflight) above the
floor, immediately inside or beneath the window
or rooflight. As an exception to the general
guidance in TGD K (Stairways, Ladders, Ramps
and Guards) that guarding be provided for any
window, the cill of which is less than 800 mm in
height above floor level, guarding should not be
provided to a rooflight opening provided in
compliance with this paragraph.

Joebre Your velux windows do not comply as you have explained them. the cill is too high from the finished floor. 600mm is the min distance from finished floor level and 1100mm is the max.
The size of the velux will dictate weather it needs to be top hung or centre hung. The BCO was correct in what he said

Mellor

RKQ wrote: »

I see where you are coming from Mellor. We did go abit off topic, but the OP seemed happy with the information supplied / debated.

I was the first to mention a bedroom requiring a means of escape andsuggesting low cill levels were involved.The OP made no mention of this, I was simply trying to understand the advice he / she had been given. Trying to get into the mind of the Salesman.

The OP was happy, but if you read the last post, they were under the impresion that full french windows were needed.
This is what the salesman said, and is utter bolllox.
Generally, I find its the sales men that do most of the scaremoungering and misinforming regard regs and new regs.
Anyway, the issue should be crystal now

Mellor

To be honest, its hard to say for sure.
It really depends on the exact model of the frame and how it is constructed.

Area won't be a problem. You will be close to the 450mm limit.

1000mm wide, so i'd say it would be about 450 opening,

Suggestions.
Make sure that the windows open fully, past 90 degrees. This can be with either a door hinge, or detachable sliding hinges.
Make sure that there is no vertical bar fitted in the centre, as well as helping with regs, its look much better.
Finally, Change width to 1135 (size of ope, window to fit), this is a block work dimension, its better practice to size opes to this. Also, it will mean that the windows defo comply.


If you are set on the 1000mm ope, they check it out, It certainly can comply.
If it does't in the model you like, up it to 1135.
You do not need full height french windows. Ignore a sales man that says you do

ps. As you said (just to confirm), the cill at 600 is fine, as its on the GF

joebre

Thanks for reply, tptcatcbr

I was misreading the TGD. I now realise that the Velux can be within 600mm of floor but that it can be as high as 1100mm.
What do people think of the temporary steps ?
I know that I don't like them !


joebre

topcatcbr

joebre wrote: »

Thanks for reply, tptcatcbr

I was misreading the TGD. I now realise that the Velux can be within 600mm of floor but that it can be as high as 1100mm.
What do people think of the temporary steps ?
I know that I don't like them !


joebre

I agree i dont like the idea of a piece of furniture being perminent in a room.

I think the right solution would be to install a larger velux where the cill will be approx 1000 above FFL

Victor

Height of window off floor / ground

On the ground floor., if your internal and external heights are about 800-1100mm off ground, you should be fine. The internal height can be lower, but you need to make sure people can't fall from a height from the cill to the ground outside.


Height of window

Once you comply with the rules of 450mm in one dimension and an area of 0.33m2 you can have any height that is sensible.


Width of window

Villain wrote: »

Hi guys, the problem I have is my plans give a window that is only 600 mm from ffl, they are 2m high but only 1m wide so he said that if I split the window down the middle I won't have enough opening to make it a fire escape window, the drop outside will not over 1m so I think that negates the need for a bar at 800mm but can someone work out if half of a 1m wide opening is enough for the regs or do I need french style windows where each side opens?

Be careful here. Traditional "french windows" are in fact double doors that are normally kept closed and used as windows, but would be left open in warm weather to allow ventilation. They would be full height and more than enough to walk though, indeed they might be higher than doors (hot summer air rises). Tradition was they were slightly up off the floor and led to a terrace or balcony. They would be common here if sliding patio doors weren't in so much use.

"French (style) windows" also appears to be a term used to descibe windows where there is no mullion (fixed centre frame) to secure the two casement windows (equivalent to a double door) to, but are of conventional window dimensions.

If you have a 1000mm opening and lose 50mm on either side for the frame you have 900mm left - this gives you two choices:

(a) A traditional Irish casement window with the casement wider than the fixed panel. See image.

(b) Two opening leaves like you see in my "bad example" attached, each 450mm wide. Even at this, you might lose some of that 450mm because of the need to overlap the meeting edges* of the two windows. In this case, if the structural ope is only 1000mm you will end up with two different size casements.

* I can't think of the correct term.

topcatcbr

Another option which may be alot simpler is to have the whole window openable.

muffler

Villain wrote: »

Hi guys, the problem I have is my plans give a window that is only 600 mm from ffl, they are 2m high but only 1m wide so he said that if I split the window down the middle I won't have enough opening to make it a fire escape window, the drop outside will not over 1m so I think that negates the need for a bar at 800mm but can someone work out if half of a 1m wide opening is enough for the regs or do I need french style windows where each side opens?

Thanks for all the help and pms guys

French "style" and french windows are obviously 2 different things. If you intend having a mullion down the middle then you wont pass the fire regs as each half will be less than 450mm. Even leaving the mullion out wont sort your problems as you will lack security.

As has been suggested increase opening in block work to 1150mm or have the entire window hinged at the side the same as a door.

topcatcbr

muffler wrote: »

As has been suggested increase opening in block work to 1150mm or have the entire window hinged at the side the same as a door.

I am assuming that the house has already been built and opes formed. If it hasnt then do as suggested above.

Slig

Villan,
1) if you put in french doors instead of windows as shown on planning permission drawings then you will not comply with planning.
2) A 1 x 1.3m window CAN be openable as a single unit, Personally I like tilt and turn but some people dont like the way they open in as it doesnt work with curtains.
I would say that your salesman will dispute this and if he does than he is selling an inferior product. PVC frames are not structural on their own and unless the window is very small the frame should be reinforced with a steel box section. In typical Irish fashion the good workmanship is the exception rather than the rule and you will find it difficult to get a good manufacturer capable of providing the correct windows.

Villain

Sorry for the confusion, but I think some people has misunderstood my "french window" my meaning of french windo is that both sides open and lock in the middle i.e when you open both sides there is nothng left in the middle

sydthebeat

villain, i havent seen anywhere here as to how wide your opes are?

but generally, as has been said above, once the width exceeds 450mm when opened, and creates an opening larger than 0.33 m2... then it complies with regs.

lets assume your opes are 900 wide and 1.4 m high. if you have no fixed mullion and both 'leaves' open then your windows comply with the regs once the distance to the outside path from cill doesnt exceed 1.4 m, which youve said it hasnt.

i have seen that pvc manufacturers wont stand over any opes larger than 900 x 1350. but dont accept this.. if they cant stand over it then go to someone who will.

Mellor

Villain wrote: »

Sorry for the confusion, but I think some people has misunderstood my "french window" my meaning of french windo is that both sides open and lock in the middle i.e when you open both sides there is nothng left in the middle

A window like this will almost always comply with regs, it would have to be very strange proportions if it didnt.
The window guy was wrong/lying (not going to speculate, but a window salesmans should know whst is needed)
full height not needed.

Villain

Yea he might have been trying to mislead me, I kinda played the dumb shopper (well not hard I don't know that much about windows), My windows that are concerned i.e. downstairs bedrooms are 1m wide by 1.5m high, I think I may have given wrong measurements earlier.

Be interesting seeing how his quote compares, best I have so far is €9,300 for all windows and doors in Black PVC external and White internal.

Victor

muffler wrote: »

French "style" and french windows are obviously 2 different things. If you intend having a mullion down the middle then you wont pass the fire regs as each half will be less than 450mm. Even leaving the mullion out wont sort your problems as you will lack security.

And indeed windows in France tend to open in so that in hot weather, you can leave the shutters closed and the windows open.

Thanks to my sister.