Automatic 'towed' - What damage to expect?

BeardyGit

A work colleagues car ran out of petrol just off the M50/N11 on Wednesday. He walked the few hundred meters to work. When he went back to get it going with a gerrycan at lunchtime, the car had been 'towed' using a winch onto a tilt and slide flatbed truck. This was at the request of the Gardaí apparently, as it was reported to be causing an obstruction by a local resident.

The car is a Vauxhall Omega Auto, and was in 'P' and had the handbrake applied fully. When the owner went to the depot in Kilmacanogue to collect it, he found the front wheels completely out of alignment. Obviously, someone had applied a fair bit of force a steering component - most likely pulling from the front I'd guess. Incredibly, when they went to investigate the complaint, they used a forklift truck to pick the car up so they could look underneath, and then had the utter cheek to say "don't worry, we do that with new cars all the time"! No doubt it was removed from the flatbed in the same manner when it arrived in the yard - Perhaps this was when the steering damage was caused. They also didn't use rubber blocks to effectively jack the car on the forks....

After complaining to the owner of this well known recovery company, the owner of the vehicle has managed to have the car brought to an independent mechanic to have the steering repaired. Apparently it needs new trackrod ends, or perhaps something similar....

I reckon there could easily be more problems to come as a result of this car being dragged onto the back of the truck. I know it was dragged as the recovery company driver admitted this when they were asked if the car was lifted onto the truck or not. It also wasn't towed behind the truck as it was in gear with the handbrake on.....idiots.

What else should the owner be on the lookout for as a result of this gross incompetence? Bearing in mind the vehicle was brought to the garage nominated by the recovery company to do the repairs, I'd like him to have some idea what else might need to be checked. I'm flabbergasted..... Has anyone else had similar experience with this recovery company - You'll know who I'm talking about I'm sure?

Esel

Sounds nasty. No advice, but a free bump....

galwaytt

Theortically, his gearbox/torque convertor could be fubar'd...........you cannot tow/drag autos - full stop.

Pataman

Slightly off topic, If you happened to be there at the time, can it be put in neutral, then towed?

Esel

^ No. Towing in neutral, if the driving wheels are on the road, can still damage the gearbox. Distance and speed of tow are important factors - i.e. short distance low-speed tow will probably be OK. See owner's manual for details.

homer90

Gil_Dub wrote: »

What else should the owner be on the lookout for

Fuel Guage ............

Henry Ford III

Driven wheels must be lifted off the ground when towing. If not drivetrain damage may ensue.

RobbieMc

In the states, recovery companies use a special dolly for the rear of a 4X4 to have the wheels off the ground when towing.
At least in the states nearly all vehicles are automatic, so they are "expert" in recovery.
Over here, recovery jocks are there to just "recover", by any means they can.

I've seen some horrors when it comes to recovery, they would make your OIL boil.

ronnie3585

Excuse my ignorance gents but could someone explain exactly how towing an automatic car damages the drivetrain, thanks.

vibe666

even in neutral a carwith an automatic gearbox is never truly in neutral like a manual car is, they're just designed differently because of the way they work.

per manufacturers advice, towing will either be "not at all" or "only at low speeds for short distances". anything from 30mph for no more than 30 miles to 50mph for 50 miles depending on what exactly you're towing.

the only safe way is to tow it with the driven wheels raised off the ground and stationary, i.e. the front wheels up if it's front wheels drive and the back wheels off the ground if it's rear wheel drive (with the steering locked straight, obviously).

Darragh29

At a low speed for example just pulling the car onto a flatbed, you would be unlucky for any damage to occur, I'd say he will be ok. For damage to occur, fluid pressure would have to build up in the transmission, this doesn't happen at low speeds, so I'd say he'll be grand...

Darragh29

BTW, you can tow an automatic but just not with the driven wheels on the ground.

luckyD

homer90 wrote: »

Fuel Guage ............

:pac::):pac::D:) problem solved!

Wishbone Ash

Gil_Dub wrote: »

A work colleagues car ran out of petrol just off the M50/N11 on Wednesday. He walked the few hundred meters to work. When he went back to get it going with a gerrycan at lunchtime

You work colleague was very irresponsible for leaving a vehicle on a busy road and heading to work. Why didn't he call the Gardai immediately and wait at the car for a tow truck to arrive or, if he didn't have a telephone, he could have called from work and returned immediately to the scene.

galwaytt

Darragh29 wrote: »

At a low speed for example just pulling the car onto a flatbed, you would be unlucky for any damage to occur, I'd say he will be ok. For damage to occur, fluid pressure would have to build up in the transmission, this doesn't happen at low speeds, so I'd say he'll be grand...

Yes, but in Park, with Handbrake on ?? The gearbox is mechanically locked, and the wheels are locked, so how did get up the flatbed? Kicking and screaming ??

Darragh29

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You work colleague was very irresponsible for leaving a vehicle on a busy road and heading to work. Why didn't he call the Gardai immediately and wait at the car for a tow truck to arrive or, if he didn't have a telephone, he could have called from work and returned immediately to the scene.

Whether he was in the car or outside it or a mile away from it, the car still represents the same fairly neglible risk to other careful road users.

If the handbrake was on then the car was dragged up onto the flatbed with no possible damage to automatic transmission. No big deal, it'll very most likely be fine...

Tony Broke

Darragh29 wrote: »

No big deal, it'll very most likely be fine...

How do you figure that?

Darragh29

Tony Broke wrote: »

How do you figure that?

Sorry, thought it was a RWD Merc. Either way, it will probably be fine as per my previous post regarding hydraulic pressure not building up to cause transmission seal damage... The car probably hardly moved 10 feet!

VH

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You work colleague was very irresponsible for leaving a vehicle on a busy road and heading to work. Why didn't he call the Gardai immediately and wait at the car for a tow truck to arrive or, if he didn't have a telephone, he could have called from work and returned immediately to the scene.

fcuk me - this must be a p1sstake surely? or are the high horses working overtime?

no - looks like a p1sstake/troll

Darragh29

VH wrote: »

fcuk me - this must be a p1sstake surely? or are the high horses working overtime?

no - looks like a p1sstake/troll

Unfortunately no, not a piss take...

vibe666

Darragh29 wrote: »

At a low speed for example just pulling the car onto a flatbed, you would be unlucky for any damage to occur, I'd say he will be ok. For damage to occur, fluid pressure would have to build up in the transmission, this doesn't happen at low speeds, so I'd say he'll be grand...

you don't appear to have read the OP's question.

The car was in 'park' and was dragged with all 4 wheels locked stationary along the road and onto the back of a flat bed truck and he has already had it confirmed that it has caused some damage to the steering as quoted by a garage it was taken to.

Additionally, it is quite reasonable to expect further damage t the auto box as result of this.

quite how that can be classed as 'grand' I'm not entirely sure. :rolleyes:

Darragh29

vibe666 wrote: »

you don't appear to have read the OP's question.

The car was in 'park' and was dragged with all 4 wheels locked stationary along the road and onto the back of a flat bed truck and he has already had it confirmed that it has caused some damage to the steering as quoted by a garage it was taken to.

Additionally, it is quite reasonable to expect further damage t the auto box as result of this.

quite how that can be classed as 'grand' I'm not entirely sure. :rolleyes:

Here we go, the reason their is alleged damage to the track rod ends was most likely because the car was taken off the truck using a forklift! I've seen several cars, including automatics, dragged up onto recovery trucks and no damage done.

I think I've said this three times now but I'll say it again. The car hasn't effectively been towed, it was dragged 10 feet. I don't think this will cause transmission damage, I imagine that there will be no damage because I think the car would have to be towed at speed for hydraulic pressure to build up and start damaging seals. At very low speeds, small volumes of hydraulic fluid can get past the seals without causing damage.

The only way the OP will know whether or not there is transmission damage is to start the car and see if it will drive. I'd be more inclined to wait for a problem to emerge than to be pursuing the very worst case scenario. That's one of the rules of thumb, if it ain't broke, leave it alone!

vibe666

you don't see to understand the difference between being towed and being dragged.

you're right that towing an automatic at low speed isn't likely to build up enough pessure to do the transmission any damage but there's no way of knowing what damage might be caused by the pressure on the gearbox of the dragging motion trying to force the wheels to turn when it's in park.

And how exactly is lifting up a car with a forklift supposed to damage track rod ends?

Darragh29

vibe666 wrote: »

you don't see to understand the difference between being towed and being dragged.

you're right that towing an automatic at low speed isn't likely to build up enough pessure to do the transmission any damage but there's no way of knowing what damage might be caused by the pressure on the gearbox of the dragging motion trying to force the wheels to turn when it's in park.

And how exactly is lifting up a car with a forklift supposed to damage track rod ends?

By bending the track rod arms if they come into contact with the fork on the forklift or also by possibly causing them to come apart when the vehicle is being vertically dropped on the ground by the forklift. This could realistically only happen if there was alreaady track rod end wear present. It is hard to see how two track rod ends can be dislocated by dragging a vehicle a few feet onto a flatbed truck.

There is a way to know what damage has been done, start the car and see if it will drive, simple! Either way, if damage is done, damage is done, if it isn't, it isn't, how on earth is anyone here going to know???

vibe666

How big exactly is this forklift supposed to be to get anywhere near enough to the wheel arch on an Omega to damage the track rod ends? :rolleyes:

forklifts are designed specifically with a steady up and down movement in mind for safely moving palettes around, not throwing them. it's HIGHLY unlikely that the kind of movements a forklift would perform would stress anything (other than improper lifting points under the car) beyond normal operating tolerances.

and claiming that it's not possible for it to have either it's track rod ends or transmission damaged by forcefully dragging it along the ground shows an astounding lack of even basic mechanical knowledge.

The icing on the cake though is suggesting 'giving it a go' as an effective means of diagnosing possible problems.

you really will have to let us know where the garage is where you work so we know to avoid it like the plague. :rolleyes: [/sarcasm]

this might be a hard thing for you to take in, but the best way of finding out if you have serious mechanical problems with a car is to have a professional look at it for you, NOT to 'give it a go' and make any possible problems worse by using the vehicle 'just to see'.

"Oh, I think I might have broken my leg. I know I'll just run up and down just to make sure". :rolleyes:

Darragh29

vibe666 wrote: »

How big exactly is this forklift supposed to be to get anywhere near enough to the wheel arch on an Omega to damage the track rod ends? :rolleyes:

forklifts are designed specifically with a steady up and down movement in mind for safely moving palettes around, not throwing them. it's HIGHLY unlikely that the kind of movements a forklift would perform would stress anything (other than improper lifting points under the car) beyond normal operating tolerances.

and claiming that it's not possible for it to have either it's track rod ends or transmission damaged by forcefully dragging it along the ground shows an astounding lack of even basic mechanical knowledge.

The icing on the cake though is suggesting 'giving it a go' as an effective means of diagnosing possible problems.

you really will have to let us know where the garage is where you work so we know to avoid it like the plague. :rolleyes: [/sarcasm]

this might be a hard thing for you to take in, but the best way of finding out if you have serious mechanical problems with a car is to have a professional look at it for you, NOT to 'give it a go' and make any possible problems worse by using the vehicle 'just to see'.

"Oh, I think I might have broken my leg. I know I'll just run up and down just to make sure". :rolleyes:

I'll keep this simple for you as you're obviously more interested in trolling and going down the personal abuse road than you are in discussing anything here.

Only a few weeks ago I had a mechanic who worked for me buy a car that there was no key for, it had been lost, usual set up, handbrake on. The car was being stored in my garage and came in on the back of a recovery truck. The mechanic who bought the car had to drag it off the truck, no problem, no track rod end damage, simply, NO PROBLEM!

Is there any evidence whatsoever that this car has a suffered transmission damage????

No, there isn't. What your effectively suggesting, in the absence of any other useful contribution that you've yet to make here, is that the transmission is taken out of the car and stripped down to check for damage. Then if everything is working, put it back together again and happy days???
Sure we'll just spend a couple of grand checking that out and if it's all well, then fine, there might not have been a problem at all but our customer is happy enough to pay around 2K to be assured of that!?!

Or we could use our heads here and just check if there is any evidence of damage by seeing if the car is driving normally, which is all ANY garage is going to do in order to diagnose a possible problem in the first instance.

You need to stop pretending you know what you're talking about and stop imagining that when an automatic car is towed when it shouldn't be, that there is some cheat sheet or some special little known procedure for undoing that damage before the vehicle is driven again and undoing the damage that has already been done and thereby avoiding an expensive repair.

If hydraulic seals are gone in in an automatic gearbox, the damage is done. End of story. This will be the case whether the vehicle subsequently is driven or not.

MercMad

I agree with Darragh29. This type of dragging, and I dont condone it, is not going to harm the auto box, although it would be possible to damage the "Park" lockout solenoid.

Basically when the 'box is put in "P" a solenoid slots into a rack. It would be possible to break this, or damage the rack but you would notice, since "P" wont work anymore ! This usually only happens if you slam it into "P" whilst still on the move !

If the car was dragged with the selector in "P" and the h-brake on, then its unlikely to have damaged anything. It was obviously a ham-fisted operator who most likely damaged the steering by using a tie rod to hook up to instead of the wishbone or chassis member.

Using a forklift on a vehicle, without rubber blocks is just pure animal !

I would check for floor damage too, and damage to fuel lines, pipes and clips

vibe666

your arguments just don't make any sense. repeating them n an attempt to make them right isn't going to cut it.

you are stating as fact that there is no damage when you have no idea whether there is or not, based solely on your own assumptions of watching someone do something similar when none of us have any idea of what damage may or may not have been caused.

someone has damaged yer mans car and he's gotten them to take it to a garage, personally I'd be demanding that it's checked over properly rather than just giving it a go and keeping my fingers crossed. there's already one confirmed fault as a result (in some way or another) and quite possibly other things as well.

I'm sure you'd rather him find out while he's test driving it along a motorway at 60-70mph but personally, considering it's already at a garage I'd rather make sure it gets looked at properly before anyone drives it to make sure everything is kosher.

apologies for anything you see as a personal attack, I just have a very low tolerance for bull$hit.

Darragh29

vibe666 wrote: »

your arguments just don't make any sense. repeating them n an attempt to make them right isn't going to cut it.

you are stating as fact that there is no damage when you have no idea whether there is or not, based solely on your own assumptions of watching someone do something similar when none of us have any idea of what damage may or may not have been caused.

someone has damaged yer mans car and he's gotten them to take it to a garage, personally I'd be demanding that it's checked over properly rather than just giving it a go and keeping my fingers crossed. there's already one confirmed fault as a result (in some way or another) and quite possibly other things as well.

I'm sure you'd rather him find out while he's test driving it along a motorway at 60-70mph but personally, considering it's already at a garage I'd rather make sure it gets looked at properly before anyone drives it to make sure everything is kosher.

apologies for anything you see as a personal attack, I just have a very low tolerance for bull$hit.

Grand, you can't "check over" an automatic transmission without test driving the car so come back when you know what you are talking about.

BeardyGit

Neither of you are actually contributing anything with the pissing contest.

Darragh29, sorry to say this but you're just coming across an ill-educated back yard mechanic with your replies on this thread. Now, now. I'm not having a go - You're normally spot on, but you're missing the point on this thread.

Vibe666 has picked up on the need for a little care and caution in how the matter should have been handled. Instead of arrogant know it all type responses from the mechanic, a clear demonstration of understanding and care was what the owner needed, given the fact his car had been damaged through inappropriate rough-housing in the first place.

Now, aside from that, you'll note that I never suggested the feckin' tranmission should be pulled apart, so quit with the exageration Darragh. What I actually asked was what else he should have them watch out for....

MercMad's the only one who's actually bothered giving useful advice in his reply, without the hype and chest-puffing rubbish:

I take from his response that the owner should have had them check the "Park" lockout solenoid, floor pan, fuel and brake lines and associated clips.

Useful.

In any case, the car's been repaired. It needed new trackrods, trackrod ends and a steering rack as the original developed a terminal leak after its trauma.

I could clearly see the marks on the underside of the sills from where it was lifted by the forklift. If it were my car, I'd have hammered the recovery company for that bit alone.....

Gil

richardsheil

Gil_Dub wrote: »

Useful.

In any case, the car's been repaired. It needed new trackrods, trackrod ends and a steering rack as the original developed a terminal leak after its trauma.

I could clearly see the marks on the underside of the sills from where it was lifted by the forklift. If it were my car, I'd have hammered the recovery company for that bit alone.....

Gil

Thus proving Darragh to be correct. No damage to gearbox.
as he stated.

Top marks for Darragh for using his cop on.

Richard

Jonty

How did your man know the alignment was off??

BeardyGit

richardsheil wrote: »

Thus proving Darragh to be correct. No damage to gearbox.
as he stated.

Top marks for Darragh for using his cop on.

Richard

Good grief. Darragh gave his opinion on the matter, and to be honest, could just as easily have been wrong. Just as easily.

Anyway, job done. Let's all move on.

BeardyGit

Jonty wrote: »

How did your man know the alignment was off??

It was so far out, you could see it as you approached the car. I kid you not.

Esel

vibe666 wrote: »

I'm sure you'd rather him find out while he's test driving it along a motorway at 60-70mph....

This is a completely uncalled for comment, imo.

Anyway, I blame RobbieMc for causing this spat. He excavated a two month-old thread!

Darragh29

Gil_Dub wrote: »

Good grief. Darragh gave his opinion on the matter, and to be honest, could just as easily have been wrong. Just as easily.

Anyway, job done. Let's all move on.

I could have been, but your friend would have been no worse off. I don't know why people won't accept this, but the only cost effective way to test an automatic gearbox for functionality is to test drive the vehicle.

You won't see any problems on the outside so your wasting your money getting someone to look at it, the problem will occur in the hydraulic solenoid seals inside the gearbox also also possibly within the torque converter, where hydraulic oil cannot be directed along the appropriate paths within the transmission because the seals that control the flow of oil are busted. It's like an aortic aneurysm occuring in your transmission, for anyone out there with medical knowledge...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aortic_aneurysm

Dirk Gently

Gil_Dub wrote: »

A work colleagues car ran out of petrol just off the M50/N11 on Wednesday. He walked the few hundred meters to work. When he went back to get it going with a gerrycan at lunchtime, the car had been 'towed' using a winch onto a tilt and slide flatbed truck. This was at the request of the Gardaí apparently, as it was reported to be causing an obstruction by a local resident.

Dolly wheels aren't standard equipment carried on tilt and slide recovery trucks. Was it put on the spec lift or the bed? If there wasn't a car already on the bed it could have been jacked up and put on skids to winch it onto the bed. Again, not all trucks would have skids but generally most would have some kind of dish in a compartment to do this. If the bed wasn't an option and the gardai ordered the driver to remove the vehicle then he would have little choice but to move it by any means he could, reversing and grabbing it with his spec. Your friend made an error waiting until lunch time to go back to the vehicle. He should have gone straight back or else reported it to his breakdown assistance and informed them it was an automatic which needed to be lifted not towed. Fuel would either have been brought out or else the car lifted to a petrol station.

Towing an automatic is a no no but under the instruction of the gardai and in the absence of the owner, a note or a contact number the recovery driver might not have had a choice. I don't know the details of what happened or how much of an obstruction it was but the Garda may have given the driver no choice. Anyway, with out speculating too much the moral of the story is to leave a contact phone number clearly visible on the window. It's possible the recovery driver was irresponsible but it's equally possible he done it against his will under the instruction of a garda.

You asked about the recovery company involved....

Judging by the recovery company involved I'd be leaning towards garda instructions rather than negligence tbh. They're one of the better agents around. Believe it or not they actually train other agents recovery operators in health / safety / recovery techniques. We sent some of our own lads down to them a while ago for training. Again I could be wrong and the recovery driver might be totally responsible but I'd investigate more before putting all the blame on him. Try find out which garda told him to lift it and if the Garda gave him any choice in the matter.

Esel

^ Surely the Garda cannot 'force' the recovery driver to remove the car?

BeardyGit

esel wrote: »

^ Surely the Garda cannot 'force' the recovery driver to remove the car?

There's no need. The recovery company have a contract with the Gardaí, and would therefore simply be complying with their customers wishes, and under a certain blanket protection in so far as they're operating under the insruction of a member of An Garda Siochána.

Darragh29

Gil_Dub wrote: »

There's no need. The recovery company have a contract with the Gardaí, and would therefore simply be complying with their customers wishes, and under a certain blanket protection in so far as they're operating under the insruction of a member of An Garda Siochána.

The contract is awarded on the basis of:

(A) Being competent in the recovery of a vehicle, and...

(B) Having the necessary equipment to safely and efficiently recover a wide variety of vehicles.

They are under no protection whatsoever, they are not Gardai. Unfortunately a number of them are under an illusion that they are Gardai and if you challenge them verbally, you will notice how quickly they will fob you off to the Gardai. If your car is damaged when it is being recovered on the instructions of the Gardai, the recovery company is fully liable for the damages done to your vehicle.

Dirk Gently

esel wrote: »

^ Surely the Garda cannot 'force' the recovery driver to remove the car?

That's exactly what they can do. The company involved is AFAIK contracted to operate the M50 and keep it clear. Another company deals with stolen / burnt out / tax insurance stuff or anything to do with the Gardai. Generally when the Gardai tell them to lift something it must be done straight away and as quickly as possible. Some trucks even get escorts to a crash scene or a car causing an obstruction. The emphasis is on speed and clearing the road. It's not the same as a normal breakdown. I think 20 minutes is the time the gardai allow you from receiving the call to getting on scene. They don't want to know about how it's lifted, just that it must be lifted ASAP. We don't do the Garda work but sometimes our drivers might get flagged down and told to lift something off the road. We carry dollys but they take time to set up and do the job right. 9 times out of 10 the garda will tell the driver to stop fluting about and just drag it up.

Darragh29

Detention of vehicles.

41.—(1) The Minister may, after consultation with the Minister for Justice, make regulations authorising and providing for the detention, removal, storage and subsequent release or disposal of a mechanically propelled vehicle in use in a public place where—


( a ) the person driving the vehicle refuses or fails to produce there and then a driving licence then having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle, when production of such a licence is demanded of him by a member of the Garda Síochána under section 40 (1) of the Principal Act and the member is of opinion that the person is by reason of his age ineligible to hold a driving licence licensing him to drive the vehicle,


( b ) the vehicle is or a member of the Garda Síochána reasonably believes it to be registered in the State and the member is of opinion that the vehicle is being so used in contravention of section 56 (1) of the Principal Act, or


( c ) a member of the Garda Síochána is of opinion that any excise duty payable under section 1 of the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act, 1952 , in respect of the vehicle, being a vehicle which is or which the member reasonably believes to be registered in the State, has not been paid in respect of a continuous period of 3 months or more immediately prior to such use.


(2) Regulations under this section may, in particular and without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1)—


( a ) authorise and provide for the recovery by such persons or classes of persons as may be specified in the regulations from the owners of vehicles detained, removed, stored, released or disposed of, of charges in accordance with a prescribed scale, in respect of such detention, removal, storage, release or disposal and for the disposal of moneys received in respect of such charges,


( b ) provide for the waiver or deferral of such charges in such circumstances as may be specified in the regulations,


( c ) provide for the release, by or on behalf of persons referred to in paragraph ( a ), of vehicles detained, removed or stored to such persons and upon such conditions as may be specified in the regulations,


( d ) authorise and provide for the sale (or the disposal otherwise than by sale), by or on behalf of persons referred to in paragraph ( a ) of vehicles detained, removed or stored and provide for the disposal of moneys received in respect of such sale or other disposal.


(3) Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, a vehicle shall not be disposed of thereunder before the expiration of a period of 6 weeks from the date of its detention or 2 weeks after notice of the intended disposal has been given in the prescribed manner, whichever is the longer.


(4) A person who obstructs or impedes, or assists another person to obstruct or impede, a member of the Garda Síochána in the performance of his duties under this section shall be guilty of an offence.


(5) No action shall lie in respect of anything done in good faith and without negligence in the course of the detention, removal, storage, release or disposal of a vehicle under this section.

Dirk Gently

part 4.

Darragh29

clown bag wrote: »

part 4.

I think you're missing the finer point here. I've looked up all the RTA legislation in recent years and as per the above extract, there are only certain specific circumstances under which a Garda can remove your vehicle or instruct someone else to remove your vehicle and it being broken down by the side of the road isn't cited in any legislation I can find as being a reason why your car can be removed without your authorisation.

I recently posted a thread on this very topic of recovery of vehicles at the side of the road by recovery agents where lets just say the issue of being instructed to do so by a Garda was very much open to question, and unfortunately the thead I started was promptly closed by a mod here on this forum.

Can anyone find a basis in legislation that allows a Garda to remove your car from the side of the road???

Dirk Gently

I think maybe you have a dispute with the Gardai more so than the recovery agent so, maybe a justifiable dispute, I don't know to be honest.
Neither of us know the circumstances of this particular incident. If a car is causing an obstruction, especially on a main artery where it could potentially cause problems then they generally want it lifted right away. If this recovery agent was under no pressure and had the time to take all the precautions and didn't, then he is definitely responsible. If however he was ordered to lift it in the interests of public safety and the Garda gave him no choice as to how to lift it then there's nothing he can do about it.

Whether that's right or wrong it's not the recovery operators decision, he must comply with the Garda. I would imagine there would have to be a level of power given to the Garda to make that decision though if he felt it was in the best interests of the safety of other road users. The only people who can answer the question in this incident is the recovery operator and the garda involved, that's why I recommended speaking with the Garda to find out his level of involvement in the recovery.

Darragh29

clown bag wrote: »

I think maybe you have a dispute with the Gardai more so than the recovery agent so, maybe a justifiable dispute, I don't know to be honest.
Neither of us know the circumstances of this particular incident. If a car is causing an obstruction, especially on a main artery where it could potentially cause problems then they generally want it lifted right away. If this recovery agent was under no pressure and had the time to take all the precautions and didn't, then he is definitely responsible. If however he was ordered to lift it in the interests of public safety and the Garda gave him no choice as to how to lift it then there's nothing he can do about it.

Whether that's right or wrong it's not the recovery operators decision, he must comply with the Garda. I would imagine there would have to be a level of power given to the Garda to make that decision though if he felt it was in the best interests of the safety of other road users. The only people who can answer the question in this incident is the recovery operator and the garda involved, that's why I recommended speaking with the Garda to find out his level of involvement in the recovery.

It's the recovery agent who is responsible because he did the damage. A Garda has no authority whatsoever to order or instruct anyone to move a privately owned car from a public place, unless one of the following conditions cn be satisfied:

( a ) the person driving the vehicle refuses or fails to produce there and then a driving licence then having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle, when production of such a licence is demanded of him by a member of the Garda Síochána under section 40 (1) of the Principal Act and the member is of opinion that the person is by reason of his age ineligible to hold a driving licence licensing him to drive the vehicle,


( b ) the vehicle is or a member of the Garda Síochána reasonably believes it to be registered in the State and the member is of opinion that the vehicle is being so used in contravention of section 56 (1) of the Principal Act, or


( c ) a member of the Garda Síochána is of opinion that any excise duty payable under section 1 of the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act, 1952 , in respect of the vehicle, being a vehicle which is or which the member reasonably believes to be registered in the State, has not been paid in respect of a continuous period of 3 months or more immediately prior to such use.

Basically if you have your car taxed and you have your licence on you and you are insured, they have no basis in law for interfering with your property.

VH

Gil_Dub wrote: »

Good grief. Darragh gave his opinion on the matter, and to be honest, could just as easily have been wrong. Just as easily..

yeah, but he wasn't wrong - he has experience in the field, gave his professional opinion, and was right - maybe a bit of credit is due to the man?

Dirk Gently

Darragh29 wrote: »

It's the recovery agent who is responsible because he did the damage. A Garda has no authority whatsoever to order or instruct anyone to move a privately owned car from a public place, unless one of the following conditions cn be satisfied:

I don't have a legal background and we are not contracted to do these Garda recoveries so I'm open to you being correct. You may very well be right. You could also be wrong and the Gardai could actually have the power to remove any vehicle they feel is likely to cause an accident or obstruct emergency vehicles reaching the scene of an accident. It's a mute point really though in respect to a recovery operator being ordered to do so by a Garda. He has no choice but to do as the Garda says, if what the Garda tells him to do is not legal then it's a matter for that Garda to explain his decision.

Picture this though. The recovery operator, under instruction from the Garda refuses to lift the vehicle. He loses his job, his company loses the contract. An accident happens because of that car not being moved and the recovery operator is now responsible for injuries or death. He has no choice but to follow the instruction of the Garda. If as you say the Gardai instruction is in contradiction with another law (or lack of law covering an area) then that must be a matter for the Garda to justify.

Have you tried asking the Gardai directly your questions? Maybe they could e-mail you any legislation which overrides your quoted legislation which states they can not touch the car. I would be surprised if there wasn't a public saftey issue allowing them to do so. Anyway, it's not something I deal with, except to say any incidents our drivers are involved in by way of being flagged down, the Garda gives the orders and we are obliged to follow them.

Darragh29

clown bag wrote: »

I don't have a legal background and we are not contracted to do these Garda recoveries so I'm open to you being correct. You may very well be right. You could also be wrong and the Gardai could actually have the power to remove any vehicle they feel is likely to cause an accident or obstruct emergency vehicles reaching the scene of an accident. It's a mute point really though in respect to a recovery operator being ordered to do so by a Garda. He has no choice but to do as the Garda says, if what the Garda tells him to do is not legal then it's a matter for that Garda to explain his decision.

Picture this though. The recovery operator, under instruction from the Garda refuses to lift the vehicle. He loses his job, his company loses the contract. An accident happens because of that car not being moved and the recovery operator is now responsible for injuries or death. He has no choice but to follow the instruction of the Garda. If as you say the Gardai instruction is in contradiction with another law (or lack of law covering an area) then that must be a matter for the Garda to justify.

Have you tried asking the Gardai directly your questions? Maybe they could e-mail you any legislation which overrides your quoted legislation which states they can not touch the car. I would be surprised if there wasn't a public saftey issue allowing them to do so. Anyway, it's not something I deal with, except to say any incidents our drivers are involved in by way of being flagged down, the Garda gives the orders and we are obliged to follow them.

Ah I'm not out to split hairs with you on it. I just think it should be more transparent the way the whole recovery from the side of the road thing is being operated at the moment. I know of one situation that I can't speak too much about at the moment because last time I did the thread was locked, but outside of the Dublin area, I know of one recovery operator who I would consider has a relationship with the Gardai that is far too cosy...

You can't have a situation where your car is at the side of the road and you go off to get it sorted and next thing you know the steering rack is hanging out of your car, the cost of having that sorted is a 4 digit figure, and nobody is responsible!

Dirk Gently

Darragh29 wrote: »

I know of one recovery operator who I would consider has a relationship with the Gardai that is far too cosy...

Without going into detail, I know exactly who your talking about and you're right, it is a very cosy relationship. I wouldn't fancy trying to pursue a claim against them even if they took a sledge hammer to my car and lifted it with a jcb.

Anyway, if you get confirmation regarding the lifting of vehicles let me know, it's an interesting point. In the mean time I don't think any of our lads will be refusing to carry out their instructions tbh.

Darragh29

clown bag wrote: »

Without going into detail, I know exactly who your talking about and you're right, it is a very cosy relationship. I wouldn't fancy trying to pursue a claim against them even if they took a sledge hammer to my car and lifted it with a jcb.

Anyway, if you get confirmation regarding the lifting of vehicles let me know, it's an interesting point. In the mean time I don't think any of our lads will be refusing to carry out their instructions tbh.

I'll be posting a video up here in the near future that will show you what happens when transparency goes out the window... You'd be amazed what some people will do when given the opportunity. I tried to start a discussion on this recently on this forum and I was locked down before a discussion even got started and told to leave it until I had some evidence of what I had said I became aware of, which I will have very soon...