Why do the Irish feel above the law?

Eru

Seen all over the news and media today that a young Irish lad was shot dead in the US. By all accounts he was suffering from mental issues having gone over on a holiday. It also appears that his visa had expired. Now that in itself isnt an excuse to shoot someone nor do I know what took place and thats why Im not going to go into too much detail second guessing the situation until more facts are known.

Now I do feel for him and his family not too mention the officer afterall if this lad was suffering from mental illness he probable wasnt thinking clearly nor were his (possible) actions usual for him. As for the officer, Im pretty sure he didnt start his day intending to shoot anyone. Regardless, I cant help wondering why is it the Irish feel that when it involves someone from here its somehow different or more important?

People are being shot and killed all over the world both by criminals and by the police. Rarely gets a mention but yet this incident got more news coverage that 60 people being massacred in Chad(which is only mentioned because the Irish troops are there). In addition, the officer was responding to a burglary. In the US not only the police but the housholder has far reaching powers in the use of force.

Now so far, and its early days into this case, we have heard a few things through the media all of it speculation and coming from one side. What I noted was the statements "A lot of people are angered by what had happened", "It was excessive force", "He wasnt the type of lad to have a gun" and "Why didnt they use a taser?"

First off I have relations living in the states, 2 complete sets of families and both have guns in the houses. My Uncle and my cousins all use them and have what can only be described as a mini arsenal. My second set has only one gun for personal protection and that includes people tresspassing.

Secondly, how can someone seriously ask why a taser wasnt used if the suspect was 50 feet away and pointing a gun at you? Im not saying thats what happened but maybe it is. On top of that, he was mentally ill, illegally in the country and had no reason to be near the house in question. Im betting theres little anger sover what happened and the majority of people dont care, those that do support the police.

Now the fact that he was an illegal in the country moves onto the second reason Im thinking this. All the ilegal Irish currently satying in the US. What makes them so important? Why can they alone ignore immigration laws and be treated differently compared to all the other nationalities going to the US and for that matter, here?

Seems very strange that people that decided to enter another country illegally can then turn around and demand permission tonot only stay but then condemn the countries practices aand culture. To add insult to injury these people, who turned their backs on this nation, then start demanding that the Irish government intervene on their behalfs. Why? Are the Irish just short sighted and arrogant or have we fallen in love with our own self styled image of being loved arouond the world?

Latchy

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Why? Are the Irish just short sighted and arrogant or have we fallen in love with our own self styled image of being loved arouond the world?

Cant answer to your original start topic about the tragic shooting but the ' in love with our own self styled image of being loved around the world ' has being used by generations of irish and may very well be an out dated concept in a lot of countries who previously bought into the ' friendly simple irish country of guinness drinkers

(itself again an outdated image )

Terrontress

You can't blame someone for wanting to leave Ireland. Just look out the window and see why.

Many of these people over there are paying tax and social security, contributing to voluntary organisations, living model citizens' lives yet cannot leave the country.

I agree that Irish people should be treated no differently to everyone else but those who are living positive lives over there should be allowed to stay on, similar to how people from the ten accession states could come to Ireland but not claim benefits.

sunnyjim

Many of these people over there are paying tax and social security, contributing to voluntary organisations, living model citizens' lives yet cannot leave the country.

Thats baloney.

Most people who try to stay under the radar are not paying tax, as it uncovers them.

Who cares how much of a model they are? They broke the law. They can't decide to break the law or seek exemptions because it suits them.

They'll have to wait for work visas or greencards like the rest of us.

Gavin

Now I do feel for him and his family not too mention the officer afterall if this lad was suffering from mental illness he probable wasnt thinking clearly nor were his (possible) actions usual for him. As for the officer, Im pretty sure he didnt start his day intending to shoot anyone. Regardless, I cant help wondering why is it the Irish feel that when it involves someone from here its somehow different or more important?

It is of course different, the person is Irish. Much the same way that if there is any sort of international catastrophe,(tsunami, riots, etc) the Dep. of Foreign Affairs determine if any Irish are involved. Every country does this, they look out for their citizens, it's the very basis of a Governments job.
Now maybe in the grand scheme of things it's somewhat pointless, discriminating between nationalities, but nonetheless, it is done.

People are being shot and killed all over the world both by criminals and by the police. Rarely gets a mention but yet this incident got more news coverage that 60 people being massacred in Chad(which is only mentioned because the Irish troops are there). In addition, the officer was responding to a burglary. In the US not only the police but the housholder has far reaching powers in the use of force.

Same as above.

Now so far, and its early days into this case, we have heard a few things through the media all of it speculation and coming from one side. What I noted was the statements "A lot of people are angered by what had happened", "It was excessive force", "He wasnt the type of lad to have a gun" and "Why didnt they use a taser?"

First off I have relations living in the states, 2 complete sets of families and both have guns in the houses. My Uncle and my cousins all use them and have what can only be described as a mini arsenal. My second set has only one gun for personal protection and that includes people tresspassing.

Secondly, how can someone seriously ask why a taser wasnt used if the suspect was 50 feet away and pointing a gun at you? Im not saying thats what happened but maybe it is. On top of that, he was mentally ill, illegally in the country and had no reason to be near the house in question. Im betting theres little anger sover what happened and the majority of people dont care, those that do support the police.

Why are you saying what may and may not have happened ? Just as all the people asking why not use a taser, you don't know any of the details. What is the point of speculating ?

It does appear that there is anger over what happened, given that 100 people protested [1].

Now the fact that he was an illegal in the country moves onto the second reason Im thinking this. All the ilegal Irish currently satying in the US. What makes them so important? Why can they alone ignore immigration laws and be treated differently compared to all the other nationalities going to the US and for that matter, here?

Seems very strange that people that decided to enter another country illegally can then turn around and demand permission tonot only stay but then condemn the countries practices aand culture. To add insult to injury these people, who turned their backs on this nation, then start demanding that the Irish government intervene on their behalfs. Why? Are the Irish just short sighted and arrogant or have we fallen in love with our own self styled image of being loved arouond the world?

This is just really bizarre generalisations. You'd think that someone, who is a member of an organisation which suffers more than most from negative generalisations would realise the inaccuracy of such statements.


[1]http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0703/breaking25.htm

petergfiffin

Your arguments seem to be a bit contradictory if you ask me (which by posting here you kinda did ).

On top of that, he was mentally ill, illegally in the country and had no reason to be near the house in question

So what?? Is it the fact he was mentally ill, an illegal alien or in the wrong place the justification for shooting him or is it just when you put them together?

Secondly, how can someone seriously ask why a taser wasnt used if the suspect was 50 feet away and pointing a gun at you? Im not saying thats what happened but maybe it is.

It's now been proven it isn't what happened, he was on the ground trying to get up meaning a taser or baton may have been more appropriate.

To add insult to injury these people, who turned their backs on this nation, then start demanding that the Irish government intervene on their behalfs.

These are the same people who for generations have used the wealth they generated in these countries to send money back to Ireland, have contributed to Irish charities or have returned more educated and better trained than when they left. As an Irish citizen the day the Irish government stop intervening on the behalf of Irish people is the day I'll apply for citizenship somewhere else!! Would you want the government to intervene if (god forbid) something happened you or one of yours abroad??

The Irish are no different to any other people in the world, if this was an American shot dead by the Guards the US government would intervene in exactly the same way

Terrontress

sunnyjim wrote: »

Thats baloney.

Most people who try to stay under the radar are not paying tax, as it uncovers them.

Who cares how much of a model they are? They broke the law. They can't decide to break the law or seek exemptions because it suits them.

They'll have to wait for work visas or greencards like the rest of us.

I know of several people out in New York who have gone out on a British passport, established themselves, come home, returned on an Irish passport with some form of sponsorship and pay tax. They are only allowed to work in one industry, that sponsored for, but they are working in pubs and on sites and pay tax on their income to make them appear on the radar and hopefully legitimise them in future. Happens all the time.

sunnyjim

It's now been proven it isn't what happened, he was on the ground trying to get up meaning a taser or baton may have been more appropriate.

Link to said proof, please.

Fighting Irish

ifl

tallaght01

petergfiffin wrote: »

So what?? Is it the fact he was mentally ill, an illegal alien or in the wrong place the justification for shooting him or is it just when you put them together?

Exactly what I was thinking. I'm all for members of the cops trying to encourage us to listen to the other side of the story. In my game, it always annoys me when people go on Joe Duffy or whatever complaining about their doctor, when you know their story is pretty unlikely to be exactly what happened.

BUT

You seem to be implying that it was OK to shoot this guy because he was an illegal immigrant and mentally ill and possibly commiting a burglary. These factors should have no bearing on the situation. To take someone's life, it shoud be as an absoloute last resort. maybe it was. Who knows. But the other factors mentioned by the OP have nothing to do with it. After reading the original post, I have just this minute gone from being someone who, despite not having any love for the gardai, thought they should be allowed carry guns for protection, to someone who thinks it's the worst idea in the world.

Black Swan

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Seems very strange that people that decided to enter another country illegally can then turn around and demand permission tonot only stay

What's the statement on the Statue of Liberty about people coming to the USA? Gosh, it slips my mind for some reason... Doubt if many people can recite it over here, or even know that it exists (the statement on the statue).

keen

Why does this case indicate that the Irish feel their above the law?

Esel

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Last edited by Karlitosway1978; Yesterday at 06:03. Reason: Appeared unsympathetic

I dread think what the original post was like, tbh.

Mentally ill, visa expired, no reason to be near the house - shoot! He was asking for it. :rolleyes:

Latchy

keen wrote: »

Why does this case indicate that the Irish feel their above the law?

Nobody above the law regardless of race colour creed except to say some get away with breaking it more than others .

Maybe the policeman who shot the irish lad broke the law

King Ludvig

OP you seem to have decided in your own mind that Andrew Hanlon was a criminal (or at least was commiting a crime at the time of the incident). The fact of the matter is we have no idea what the suituation was.

Even thats irrelevant. Lets for a moment imagine someone is a burgler, is that justification for a police officer to open fire? If the burgler was armed thats a different matter, but again we dont know the details of this particular incident.

Finally I dont see how this incident links to "the irish" thinking they are above the law

keen

latchyco wrote: »

Nobody above the law regardless of race colour creed except to say some get away with breaking it more than others .

Maybe the policeman who shot the irish lad broke the law

I understand that nobody is above the law, I read the thread title and then the post and can't see the link between this story and how the Irish feel their above the law.

Latchy

yeah i know , i was just stating the obious as in irish or nay nobody is above the law but understand OP was refering to some of our race who think thay deserve special attention when they find themselfs in situations abroad as mentioned .

Eru

King Ludvig wrote: »

OP you seem to have decided in your own mind that Andrew Hanlon was a criminal (or at least was commiting a crime at the time of the incident). The fact of the matter is we have no idea what the suituation was.

Even thats irrelevant. Lets for a moment imagine someone is a burgler, is that justification for a police officer to open fire? If the burgler was armed thats a different matter, but again we dont know the details of this particular incident.

Finally I dont see how this incident links to "the irish" thinking they are above the law

I havent decided anything, I was merely pointing out the possibility that the shooting was justified. I agree with you, we dont have anywhere near enough information to make an informed decision and thats the reason for my post, why are we attacking the police because it involves an Irishman? No one mentions the other shootings in the US. Please try to also remmeber that many have decided in their heads that he was walking along whistling and this cop simple gunned him down.

As for America, yes within their various laws fleeing from the police does allow them too shoot as does tresspassing. remember within many states within the US a person can shoot and kill a tresspasser.

My point is that the Irish illegals within the US are no different to the illegals here but yet many, not all seem to think its somehow different. Its not, there are laws governing entry into the country and they broke them. Simple as. Its not as if Ireland is a terrible country and they can claim asylum now is it?

Overall Im trying to understand why we seem to also put our culture, laws and ideals above those of the nation this happened in. They have their own laws, systems and culture. Who are we to demand anything of them?

However Im just glad a thread I started actually got responses.

Fyr.Fytr

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

However Im just glad a thread I started actually got responses.

And it hasn't been locked, fair play

keen

There's been lots of other cases where someone was shot by the police and other non Irish people living in America have asked why wasn't a non lethal measure used like shooting of the leg, tazered etc.



They have the right to question the police and their ways if they feel they were wrong.

But as the OP said he wasn't shot for whistling and you'd have to hear the full story before knowing if they have cause to complain.

FGR

There might be a question as regards to the use of a tazer but 'shooting of the leg' is something that simply isn't done outside of television.

Most (if not all) Police Officers around the world are trained to aim at the largest part of the body which happens to be the torso. Why? Because when the point comes to pulling the trigger on a firearm your sole intention is to put the suspect on the ground quickly and effectively.

It may sound horrible and inhumane but that's procedure. When aiming at the legs there's a very low chance of actually hitting the target..especially when using a handgun as their accuracy is very poor over long distances.

keen

Yes but when someone dies people don't see sense and are looking for something to blame.

If he robbed the bank and pointed the gun in the officers face they would still blame the policeman.

Eru

ForegoneReality wrote: »

There might be a question as regards to the use of a tazer but 'shooting of the leg' is something that simply isn't done outside of television.

Most (if not all) Police Officers around the world are trained to aim at the largest part of the body which happens to be the torso. Why? Because when the point comes to pulling the trigger on a firearm your sole intention is to put the suspect on the ground quickly and effectively.

It may sound horrible and inhumane but that's procedure. When aiming at the legs there's a very low chance of actually hitting the target..especially when using a handgun as their accuracy is very poor over long distances.

Anyway, being shot in the leg stands a very real chance of severing an artery and causing rapid blood loss and death.

keen

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Anyway, being shot in the leg stands a very real chance of severing an artery and causing rapid blood loss and death.

You also have a decent chance of surviving too.

Dave!

Whatever about the rest of your post.........

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Now the fact that he was an illegal in the country moves onto the second reason Im thinking this. All the ilegal Irish currently satying in the US. What makes them so important? Why can they alone ignore immigration laws and be treated differently compared to all the other nationalities going to the US and for that matter, here?

Seems very strange that people that decided to enter another country illegally can then turn around and demand permission tonot only stay but then condemn the countries practices aand culture. To add insult to injury these people, who turned their backs on this nation, then start demanding that the Irish government intervene on their behalfs. Why? Are the Irish just short sighted and arrogant or have we fallen in love with our own self styled image of being loved arouond the world?

I agree with most of this. In media reports and the likes you'll find Mexicans, who cross the border to work and support their family, are 'illegal aliens', etc., whereas the Irish lobby has managed to euphemistically label themselves 'undocumented'. I don't see the difference really... Is there any stats out there that differentiates the Irish and Mexican immigrants significantly?

Samson

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

As for America, yes within their various laws fleeing from the police does allow them too shoot as does tresspassing. remember within many states within the US a person can shoot and kill a tresspasser.

Please clarify the above point.

In which state(s) is it legal for a law enforcement officer to shoot a fleeing suspect?
Is it the same state(s) that it is legal to shoot someone for trespass?

Can you quote the particular laws to which you refer?

Fyr.Fytr

Well its the same here, people shot or killed here normally related to gangs the next day the red tops lead with the "familys story"

"Ah jaysus he was an angel he didnt do drugs or nothin"

Yea so he was shot for no reason, right............

keen

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Well its the same here, people shot or killed here normally related to gangs the next day the red tops lead with the "familys story"

"Ah jaysus he was an angel he didnt do drugs or nothin"

Yea so he was shot for no reason, right............

In this day and age people are getting shot for very little, row in a pub half an hour later someone comes back with a gun.

There was also a plumber shot for no reason a while back so it does happen.

Fyr.Fytr

Its rare enough, 9/10 are genuine cases

keen

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Its rare enough, 9/10 are genuine cases

What's a genuine killing?

deadwood

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Its rare enough, 9/10 are genuine cases

1/10 not-so-genuine cases okay so?:eek:

Fyr.Fytr

Genuine in the fact that they are involved in crime and as a result are shot

Live by the sword die by the sword anyone?

keen

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Genuine in the fact that they are involved in crime and as a result are shot

Live by the sword die by the sword anyone?

Yes but your nine out of ten stat is a pure guess whether your right or wrong, there's some innoncent people getting caught up with heavy criminals that will not think twice about shooting someone for the most trivial of issues/denting their ego.

Eru

Samson wrote: »

Please clarify the above point.

In which state(s) is it legal for a law enforcement officer to shoot a fleeing suspect?
Is it the same state(s) that it is legal to shoot someone for trespass?

Can you quote the particular laws to which you refer?

Google the 'Castle law' which gives people, and I quote "the right to use whatever means necessary to protect themselves and their property without fear of civil liability"

Irish law, nevermind the US allows the use of reasonable force to protect yourself against attack. In theory this allows you to use equal force to which your threatened. Guy breaks into your house and you have genuine reason to believe he will kill you then you can kill them.

A quick Google search produced the following;
'Castle law' arms Texas homeowners with right to shoot (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/012008dnmetfightingback.6a8cbd.html)

In regards fleeing persons being shot the official policy of Auston police is that you dont shhot fleeing people when they pose no risk of injury. If they pose a risk to you or others, fire away. More reading on this can be found at http://www.davidfranklaw.com/case06.htm which is a defence lawyers paper concerning a particular case where an officer shot a man who was fleeing a robbery in progress.

In more detail the Castle law, sometime refered to as the 'Castle Doctrine' in the US can be read at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine and I would like you to note that it allows the use of deadly force for such offences as burglary, tresspass, arson and public Mischief.

It was also debated and found legal to use deadly force when someone simple enters your property or commit these offences against another person or property as can be seen in the Joe Horn shooting controversy which can be read up on multiple sites using a simple search of the name.

The 'Castle doctrine' and other named laws and case laws stated apply in various states within the US using either those names or others.

So I think I have proved my point but can I ask a question? Do you realise how much research would be involved in covering every single state within the US?

dee_97880

50 ft away and armed? Def not. It has not been said that AJ was armed. The chief of police has been quoted as saying "officers are trained to handle the mentally ill" I guess he forgot to end it with "by shooting them." America is made of immigrants...illegal and legal...

Esel

I am grateful that there are no plans for regular Gardaí to be armed.

At least there is a fair chance that the gung-ho 'Shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out' types will be weeded out during the selection process for Detective and special armed units.

deadwood

esel wrote: »

I am grateful that there are no plans for regular Gardaí to be armed.

At least there is a fair chance that the gung-ho 'Shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out' types will be weeded out during the selection process for Detective and special armed units.

You've nothing to fear, esel.
When you consider the paperwork involved in issuing a fine on the spot, even the triggeriest-happiest guard will think twice about unleashing the beaurocratical nightmare of firing a shot!
Anyway, there's no fear of anyine arming gardai in the near future - they're afraid to give us mobile phones!!!

Eru

deadwood wrote: »

Anyway, there's no fear of anyine arming gardai in the near future - they're afraid to give us mobile phones!!!

You using your state phone for sex lines again????

deadwood

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

You using your state phone for sex lines again????

But I'm only on for 3 minutes a pop!:cool:

Victor

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Why do the Irish feel above the law?

Because they think they can get away with it, because they have been allowed get away with it.

dee_97880

Victor wrote: »

Because they think they can get away with it, because they have been allowed get away with it.

Ummmm...the point was not negative about AJ and his Irish heritage. It was negative that Silverton Police Officers think they are above the law. AJ was unarmed and shot at least 5 times. Doesnt matter if his visa was expired or that he was Irish....it matters that a police officer chose to kill a 20 year old young man with out just cause. I dont recall AJ ever saying he was above anyone or any law.

sunnyjim

The officer didn't know this 'AJ' guy. He didn't know his age, his nationality, his visa status, anything. He most likely went out and tried to do his job. He may have made a mistake somewhere, but it wont be known until after the jury decide so.

How about we ask questions like 'why did he decide to break the law and stay there? Why did he think he was above the law to do so? What sick and sordid motives were behind him calling to a neighbours door every at night so often? Was he having an affair?!' See?!

Give it over already.

dee_97880

I guess multiple shot wounds to an unarmed man would be considered "his job"????? What does a visa expired have to do with being murdered??? I guess I dont get that point at all. It is not anyones job to fire multiple shots at an unarmed man doesnt matter if he is in the USA illegal or legal.

If the cop gets the benefit of the doubt why can AJ not get the benefit of the doubt. At this point there is no confirmation of burlary either.

Eru

dee_97880 wrote: »

I guess multiple shot wounds to an unarmed man would be considered "his job"????? What does a visa expired have to do with being murdered??? I guess I dont get that point at all. It is not anyones job to fire multiple shots at an unarmed man doesnt matter if he is in the USA illegal or legal.

If the cop gets the benefit of the doubt why can AJ not get the benefit of the doubt. At this point there is no confirmation of burlary either.

Yes but its only the likes of you jumping to cunclusions and damning someone without the full facts.

And you will see the purpose of visas if you read the full original post.

Rowley Birkin QC

Outside the specifics of the case in the USA I think that Irish people generally have a healthy disrespect for authority.

Now before anyone gets into the saddle of their high horse I am not referring to the anarchic types in Moyross etc. but rather the people that will not accept every rule and regulation without questioning it first, often in great detail.

As to where it comes from; In north Cork, where I am from, I genuinely believe it goes back to our colonial past where laws came form London and people's mindset was in opposition to this and to a certain extent that it has come down through the generations.

Another theory is that it comes from our highly centralised system of governance whereby laws and regulations come "down" from Dublin and people feel a disconnect from the process and look for ways to circumvent the laws. Again, in my experience, I refer mainly to minor issues not serious criminal activity.

/tentatively eyes up flame retardant suit

TheNog

I agree with most of what you said there but I dont believe that the majority of people believe they are above the law. There are many decent people who when cuaght out doing something wrong they hold their hands and admit and apologise for it.

Having said that there are some who genuinely think they can do what they wish without consequence. Some of those when caught breaking any particular law do not usually do so but they feel hard done by when they are prosecuted. It is usually a case of 'me, me, me' bu they fail to see the bigger picture of safety for themselves and others. There are hardcore people who do not want to follow any rules and they blame gardai or police for their own actions while deluding themselves to the fact that they should be solely responsible for their actions.

I cannot comment the AJ case in the US because I simply do not know the facts but there is always two sides to the story. In this case the two sides will be from the cop himself and the story that forensics will tell.

sunnyjim

I guess multiple shot wounds to an unarmed man would be considered "his job"????? What does a visa expired have to do with being murdered??? I guess I dont get that point at all. It is not anyones job to fire multiple shots at an unarmed man doesnt matter if he is in the USA illegal or legal.

Did you even read my post?

dee_97880

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Yes but its only the likes of you jumping to cunclusions and damning someone without the full facts.

And you will see the purpose of visas if you read the full original post.

Please do look up your upstanding officer now my friend. Officer Gonazels Silverton Oregon. Arrested for sex abuse of a child. Hmmmm????

Rowley Birkin QC

Is that going on at the moment or is it old news dee??

If he was just arrested but nothing proved then it should have no bearing on this debate.

Esel

^ Just like the fact that AH was an illegal alien is irrelevant.....

Eru

dee_97880 wrote: »

Please do look up your upstanding officer now my friend. Officer Gonazels Silverton Oregon. Arrested for sex abuse of a child. Hmmmm????

You see? Once again your the one jumping to conclusions and finding someone guilty before they have even been tried.

If I was too even suggest that AH was actually commiting a crime you would be jumping up and down about it. Oh and it appears that he was banging on someones door and ranting like a lunatic which explains the call being made and why he was approached by the officer in the first place.

esel wrote: »

^ Just like the fact that AH was an illegal alien is irrelevant.....

For the love of god start reading full posts and see that my comments concerning visas was more than just about one person.