Anthony Flew - There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Min

Fanny Cradock

Hi all,

I'm wondering if anyone has happened to read Anthony Flew's latest book There Is A God? To clarify, I'm not here to claim him as an apostate (if you'll allow the phrase) from atheism to belief in the divine. That goes both way, of course. It just that money will soon become a bit tight for me, and at €20+ for the book, I first wanted to canvas opinions from atheists (or anyone else) who may have read it.

Cheers!

Pompey Magnus

I had come across his name a few times before but knew next to nothing about him to be honest, I just read some articles from secular scholar Richard Carrier who has been involved in a tit-for-tat correspondence with Flew for a while now and Carrier points out that Flew actually did not write the book, it was actually his "co-author" Roy Abraham Varghese and evangeligal preacher Bob Hostetler (even though it is presented as a straight autobiographical account from Flew of his conversion to Aristotolean deism), in fact Hostetler isn't even credited at all. In an interview with the New York Times Flew confessed that he didn't even read the book prior to its publishing and was unaware of most of its content, quite possibly due to his slide into senility.

You probably haven't come across Richard Carrier before but I have read alot of his articles and I find him a level-headed commentator, not a mad anti-Christian atheist, so I personally would consider him to pretty trustworthy. Of course I am probably somewhat biased but I would at least be wary of just how relieable a supposed autobiography is when the person who is supposed to have written it confesses to not having even read it.

So in summing up I think you should send the €20 to me instead.

robindch

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I first wanted to canvas opinions from atheists (or anyone else) who may have read it.

Well, I'd never heard of Flew until his alleged conversion was taken up and marketed by the religious industries in the USA and elsewhere. I still haven't read any of his stuff, either before or after, so I can't comment upon it.

You may find the following article interesting though:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazine/04Flew-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

...in which Flew is painted as a man only aware in the vaguest sense of what's happening around him, or indeed, of the contents of the book which was ghost-written by a christian fundamentalist for Flew, and which Flew has never apparently read.

I'd approach this book with some caution if you're trying to understand atheism, or even Flew himself.

Fanny Cradock

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

So in summing up I think you should send the €20 to me instead.

Sure, first I'll need you to send me €40 as part of the down payment my bank requires of me to release my funds. All above board, you realise.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

Well, I'd never heard of Flew until his alleged conversion was taken up and marketed by the religious industries in the USA and elsewhere. I still haven't read any of his stuff, either before or after, so I can't comment upon it.

You may find the following article interesting though:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazine/04Flew-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

...in which Flew is painted as a man only aware in the vaguest sense of what's happening around him, or indeed, of the contents of the book which was ghost-written by a christian fundamentalist for Flew, and which Flew has never apparently read.

I'd approach this book with some caution if you're trying to understand atheism, or even Flew himself.

I'm surprised people hadn't heard of Flew before. His stuff used to crop up regularly in philosophy of religion courses. He seemed to be a pretty astute opponent to theists in his day (which was quite a long time ago).

I would hardly call him the world's most notorious atheist, though. I can think of a few others who deserved that title much more richly, but I will refrain from mentioning their names in case I get accused of trolling.

pH

Atheist dogma holds that he hasn't really converted, he's just having a crisis of non-faith. After all, if the Catholics can still call Mother Teresa one of their own I'm not going to let the fact that he now believes in God stop me counting him as an atheist.

Also .... In before "He never was an atheist, No true atheist would ever change his mind."

robindch

PDN wrote: »

I'm surprised people hadn't heard of Flew before. His stuff used to crop up regularly in philosophy of religion courses.

No doubt it did, but the atheism that you see 'round here matured a long way from the religious and philosophical departments of the universities of this world. "Practical atheism" might be a better term to describe what is certainly not what I assume must be the highly-wrought, if not impenetrable, arguments that Flew produced in the days when he took the time to read, if not also write, the books that have his name on the cover.

PDN wrote: »

I would hardly call him the world's most notorious atheist, though. I can think of a few others who deserved that title much more richly, but I will refrain from mentioning their names in case I get accused of trolling.

Having no god on whose behalf one can become offended, I like to think we're a more forgiving lot on this side of the fence. Who are these dangerous giants of whom you speak?

Fanny Cradock

I remember you mentioned him before, PDN. In fact, it was probably our conversation that latter flagged his name when it cropped up. What would you thik of the the book?

I've certainly heard the accounts of his senility. Indeed, there is a recent interview with him up on youtube which makes for uncomfortable viewing. Of course, I would much rather not believe that his conversion of sorts could only be explained away by a degenerative illness of the mind (which, i suspect, would fit in with some people view of of religious belief as a whole). Instead it was something a little more obvious: a genuine change of 'heart'.

Anyway, not interested in trading apostates or whatever he is or isn't. I'm just curious as to what brought him to do a 180, so to speak. (assuming he did this with his full mental faculties and not under duress). And ultimately to see if I'm better off keeping my stressfully earned cash.

PDN

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I remember you mentioned him before, PDN. In fact, it was probably our conversation that latter flagged his name when it cropped up. What would you thik of the the book?

I've certainly heard the accounts of his senility. Indeed, there is a recent interview with him up on youtube which makes for uncomfortable viewing. Of course, I would much rather not believe that his conversion of sorts could only be explained away by a degenerative illness of the mind (which, i suspect, would fit in with some people view of of religious belief as a whole). Instead it was something a little more obvious: a genuine change of 'heart'.

Anyway, not interested in trading apostates or whatever he is or isn't. I'm just curious as to what brought him to do a 180, so to speak. (assuming he did this with his full mental faculties and not under duress). And ultimately to see if I'm better off keeping my stressfully earned cash.

Yes, Fanny, I did initially mention the book to you, and to be honest I feel pretty bad about that now.

At first I was excited to think that someone like Flew would do a complete turnaround. But the more I've heard about this the more it sounds like the poor old guy is being exploited.

Try reversing the situation. If Billy Graham, with advanced age and poor physical health, suddenly released a book announcing that he was no longer a Christian, what would you think? Imagine furthermore that it turned out that he hadn't written the book at all, but had simply appended his name to a rant by Christopher Hitchens. Imagine also that, when interviewed, he appeared confused and didn't seem to recall anything from the book.

I would like to think in those circumstances that most fair-minded atheists would find little to crow about. That is how I feel about Flew's 'conversion'.

Galvasean

PDN wrote: »

Try reversing the situation. If Billy Graham, with advanced age and poor physical health, suddenly released a book announcing that he was no longer a Christian, what would you think? Imagine furthermore that it turned out that he hadn't written the book at all, but had simply appended his name to a rant by Christopher Hitchens. Imagine also that, when interviewed, he appeared confused and didn't seem to recall anything from the book.

I would like to think in those circumstances that most fair-minded atheists would find little to crow about. That is how I feel about Flew's 'conversion'.

Pretty much sums it up.

Fanny Cradock

I appreciate the honesty, PDN (as well as the input from others). If true, it is a terriblely sad thing to hear of people who need to twist the words of a now frail mind. I think I'll save my money!

Cheers all.