Joe Horn Acquitted

norbert64

HOUSTON -- A suburban Houston homeowner was cleared by a grand jury Monday for shooting to death two men he suspected of burglarizing his neighbor's home.

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=6235878

I guess it was to be expected :eek:

GirlInterrupted

Two things in that report stand out to me.

''I'm gonna kill them'' he told the 911 dispatcher and Mr Horn shot the men in question in the back.......

Supercell

Serves them right tbh.

Guy:Incognito

Fcuk them . Wont be breaking into people houses anymore so thats +2 for the neighbourhood.

ronnie3585

Hero.

GirlInterrupted

Stekelly wrote: »

Fcuk them . Wont be breaking into people houses anymore so thats +2 for the neighbourhood.

You don't believe the punishment should fit the crime?

ejmaztec

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

You don't believe the punishment should fit the crime?

But they probably didn't have anything worth burgling.:p

Mossy Monk

Stekelly wrote: »

Fcuk them . Wont be breaking into people houses anymore so thats +2 for the neighbourhood.

+1

Guy:Incognito

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

You don't believe the punishment should fit the crime?

I belive that I'd rather not wake up some night with some wanker in the room going through my stuff who most likely would kill me and my family should we get in his way. The more of them off'd in various cruel and unusual ways the better imo.

I have no sympathy for people killed while breaking the law (we're talking proper crimes , not speeding and the like) and things like burglars/car thieves & drug dealers come particularly low on my list.

Sherifu

Gotta love Texas.

Manic Moran

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

Two things in that report stand out to me.

''I'm gonna kill them'' he told the 911 dispatcher and Mr Horn shot the men in question in the back.......

Two things to respond to that.

Firstly, context. The "I'm gonna kill them" was said directly after the dispatcher said "If you go out there, could get hurt." It could well have been an affirmation that if there were to be any violence, he'd come out on top.

Secondly, shot in the back is irrelevant. There have been articles/experiments in various publications where it has been demonstrated that in the time it takes someone to identify a threat and react to it, the target can have rotated and started to run. It takes the average person from a third to half a second for the OODA loop to process, even when ready. You can turn around faster than that. This is why often times police end up shooting people in the back, causing huge furore when they are then cleared of wrongdoing. You will note that the detective who witnessed the shooting stated "that this suspect was actually closer to Horn after he initiated his run than at the time when first confronted" (from http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5864151.html).

There is a part 2(b) about being irrelevant. At an oversimplification, Texas law allows you to shoot people burglarising other people's homes. I don't think that was Horn's intent, he just wanted to stop them, but either way, his actions were arguably not against the law even if he had shot them without fear for his safety. Most States restrict this to people burglarising your own home, but I guess Texans pride themselves on being neighbourly folk.

You don't believe the punishment should fit the crime?

I absolutely do. Mr Horn was found by the Grand Jury of his peers not to have a case to answer for. Ergo, no crime, and no punishment.

NTM

longshanks

Sherifu wrote: »

Gotta love Texas.

what about the farmer chap in sligo (i might be mistaken on the location) who shot the pavee in the back. twice. gotta love sligo, or wherever scumbags are shot in the back

randylonghorn

norbert64 wrote: »

Joe Horn Acquitted

I would just like to clarify that this guy was absolutely no relation ...

takola

longshanks wrote: »

what about the farmer chap in sligo (i might be mistaken on the location) who shot the pavee in the back. twice. gotta love sligo, or wherever scumbags are shot in the back

Yeah we're brutal for shtuff like that up here. Get off my land or I'll come out with my pitchfork!

Near shure that was Donegal though.

longshanks

takola wrote: »

Yeah we're brutal for shtuff like that up here. Get off my land or I'll come out with my pitchfork!

Near shure that was Donegal though.

ok, cool your boots takola (rockin name you got there missy), gotta love donegal

takola

longshanks wrote: »

ok, cool your boots takola (rockin name you got there missy), gotta love donegal

(Thank you, Thank you very much!)

Twas Donegal though (I think). They're worse up there too! They try to steal all our sheep! That's why the pitchforks have to be taken out!

longshanks

i love you, you better not be fat

i hate when i decide to stalk someone and they turn out to be fat.

smellslikeshoes

I normally support this sort of stuff but I don't like the way he intended to kill them, that strikes me as premeditated. Surly he could have went in there and shot the lads in the arse or something? It just strikes me as excessive force heading in there with thr sole purpose of killing them.

enda1

Talking about Padraig Nally from Mayo who shot a frog I think in the back.

Not very pretty but there was years of torment and anguish which was involved in that case which allowed the temporary insanity thing to be allowed I think.

Some redneck shooting a couple of guys in the back for robbing his neighbour! I think that's a bit of a different story. The cowardly fcuk. Should not be allowed get away with such brutlity, but I guess you can't expect third world countries to live to 1st world standards.

Pompey Magnus

HOUSTON -- A suburban Houston homeowner was cleared by a grand jury Monday for shooting to death two men he suspected of burglarizing his neighbor's home.

Burglarizing? Is that a real word? I have never heard it used before

danniemcq

takola wrote: »

(Thank you, Thank you very much!)

Twas Donegal though (I think). They're worse up there too! They try to steal all our sheep! That's why the pitchforks have to be taken out!

you startin?

Sherifu

longshanks wrote: »

what about the farmer chap in sligo (i might be mistaken on the location) who shot the pavee in the back. twice. gotta love sligo, or wherever scumbags are shot in the back

Mayo. Mr. Nally proved trying to rob someone in them parts is a risky business.

I heard about two Polish lads caught robbing last week not too far from there that got a bit of a beating for their troubles.

Gone West

Sherifu wrote: »

I heard about two Polish lads caught robbing last week not too far from there that got a bit of a beating for their troubles.

"Heard" Yes...

Sherifu

FuzzyLogic wrote: »

"Heard" Yes...

I refuse to answer on the grounds that......

Agamemnon

Stekelly wrote: »

Fcuk them . Wont be breaking into people houses anymore so thats +2 for the neighbourhood.

Hear, hear.

Degsy

Certain "elements" in american society tried to turn the whole thing into a racist issue,claiming the two scumbags were shot because they were black and not burglars.The black panthers showed up to intimidate Mr Horne and this is what happened.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=TEZ9s0ZBAu8

Dragan

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Clm1OJl2D1Y&feature=related

I love O'Reilly.

norbert64

the saga may yet continue.
http://www.myfoxhouston.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=6924909&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1

Dyr

thats some nice shootin joe

Guy:Incognito

norbert64 wrote: »

the saga may yet continue.
http://www.myfoxhouston.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=6924909&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1

Why doesnt she look for an inquiry into why theres so many thieving scumbags that are still in the loose and havent been shot yet.

Mossy Monk

Degsy wrote: »

Certain "elements" in american society tried to turn the whole thing into a racist issue,claiming the two scumbags were shot because they were black and not burglars.The black panthers showed up to intimidate Mr Horne and this is what happened.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=TEZ9s0ZBAu8

USA USA USA USA USA

sigh. I must go out shouting Republic of Ireland later.

Lirange

This is Joe's call to the Emergency Authorities (911).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc

AARRRGH

Wow.

As much as I hate scumbags, he really shouldn't have gone outside and killed them.

Sully

Hes either stupid or he intentially went out to kill them.

dotsman

Lirange wrote: »

This is Joe's call to the Emergency Authorities (911).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc

He really gives scumbag-killers a bad name.

Personally, I think (from listening to that) he has an IQ of a 5 year old.

Cianos

That's crazy. There was no need whatsoever to kill them. Unless they started breaking in to his own house and he felt his life was in danger.

He got really worked up when he saw they had a bag of stuff...what did he expect, they'd go in to the gaf, forget why they're there and walk out empty handed?

And I hate when people say things such as "It's my right to protect myself", and "it's my right to carry a firearm". Yes, it's your right but you don't have to choose to place yourself in that situation where you are forced to exercise this right.

foxshooter243

fair play to joe horn and any other texan who exercises their right to defend their and their neighbours homes and property. I had a situation where i had property stolen and another part of my home torched by thugs in the middle of the night, the powers that be have the names of the guys who did it but have never been able to prosecute due to the witnesses not being willing to stand up in a court of law...if we had been living in texas then those guys would have been fair game and i wouldnt have hesitated-but as we arent then they still continue their rampage
through society untouched- no one will ever have me believe thats the way to go!

Cianos

foxshooter243 wrote: »

fair play to joe horn and any other texan who exercises their right to defend their and their neighbours homes and property. I had a situation where i had property stolen and another part of my home torched by thugs in the middle of the night, the powers that be have the names of the guys who did it but have never been able to prosecute due to the witnesses not being willing to stand up in a court of law...if we had been living in texas then those guys would have been fair game and i wouldnt have hesitated-but as we arent then they still continue their rampage
through society untouched- no one will ever have me believe thats the way to go!

You think death is a fitting punishment for burglary?

Guy:Incognito

Cianos wrote: »

You think death is a fitting punishment for burglary?

I do.

They know people are armed and allowed to defend themselves and their property. After that their own stupidity takes care of the rest .


As I have said already in this thread I have absolutely no sympathy for criminals, whatever happens to them in the course of their scumbagness, legal or otherwise.

foxshooter243

Cianos wrote: »

You think death is a fitting punishment for burglary?

If someone is prepared to come onto my property burn my car and part of my home and cause a fire that was close to spreading to an elderly neighbour and her daughter-thats a violent act ,and as such needs to be met with more extreme violence in order to protect yourself-if that results in the death of a few low lifes then so be it. The law should empower people with the right to self defence and to protect themselves from all forms of attack, both on their person ,home and property etc.
Better a gun in the hand than a cop on the phone, I would bet that joe horns neighbourhood is quite a good place to live now;)

Cianos

foxshooter243 wrote: »

If someone is prepared to come onto my property burn my car and part of my home and cause a fire that was close to spreading to an elderly neighbour and her daughter-thats a violent act ,and as such needs to be met with more extreme violence in order to protect yourself-if that results in the death of a few low lifes then so be it. The law should empower people with the right to self defence and to protect themselves from all forms of attack, both on their person ,home and property etc.

You are describing arson which could lead to manslaughter. I asked whether burglary is a crime that should be punishable by death. In the case of Joe Horn, his life was not at danger.

Better a gun in the hand than a cop on the phone, I would bet that joe horns neighbourhood is quite a good place to live now;)

Oh yeah, looks like a great place to live. If you would enjoy living next to people like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEZ9s0ZBAu8

foxshooter243

Cianos, i admire your stance in being a champion of the rights of those who will not think twice about burning you in your bed as you sleep,
however arguing over the terminology which is legally applicable to the roasted bodies of my family or neighbours would not be high on my agenda.
We are living in a society which is spiralling into a freefall,20 years ago
the neighbourhood in which i live was crime free, you could have left your lawnmower on the lawn at night or your car unlocked without a worry,you could have went for a walk at midnight with nary a care, not so today, the number of victims of crime in my area has shot up at a huge rate.
burglary, theft of cars, attacks on the person and sexual assaults are happening at an increasing rate, a freind awoke to find a stranger in their
home one morning and when he phoned for help he was told that there was no one available as their resources were stretched.
I am not wishing to say we should completley imitate our american friends
and their culture, but it would be foolish to say that we have nothing to learn from it.As we get poorer and less able to pay for the huge demands of a police force, and criminals are able to hold the country over a gun barrel..the least the government can do is allow us to defend ourselves!
As a famous british judge once said " we dont hang men for stealing horses, we hang them so that horses dont be stolen"

Mossy Monk

Cianos wrote: »

You think death is a fitting punishment for burglary?

Most definately if you are stupid enough to do it in a state where you can be shot for trespass. 2 less scumbags out of the gene pool.

Pompey Magnus

Stekelly wrote: »

I do.

They know people are armed and allowed to defend themselves and their property. After that their own stupidity takes care of the rest .


As I have said already in this thread I have absolutely no sympathy for criminals, whatever happens to them in the course of their scumbagness, legal or otherwise.

And what happens when criminals start bringing guns with them when they break into houses to protect themselves from other Joe Horns? Where before if they are surprised by someone who walks in on them they would have dropped the stolen loot and ran, now they may shoot first.

I hate lowlifes as much as the next person but I don't think that the threat of violence is going to stop them. States which exercise the death penalty constantly have higher murder rates than non-death penalty states. If the threat of state execution does not stop these people then the threat of some redneck hick with a shotgun isn't going to change their minds.

Guy:Incognito

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

And what happens when criminals start bringing guns with them when they break into houses to protect themselves from other Joe Horns? .

The laws were'nt brought in just a few weeks ago. They have been aware that people are armed, able , willing and allowed to pretectthemselves for a long time now. Seems to have worked out ok so far.

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

If the threat of state execution does not stop these people then the threat of some redneck hick with a shotgun isn't going to change their minds.

Might not stop them doing it but it sure as hell stop reoffending in its tracks.

norbert64

foxshooter243 wrote: »

fair play to joe horn and any other texan who exercises their right to defend their and their neighbours homes and property. I had a situation where i had property stolen and another part of my home torched by thugs in the middle of the night, the powers that be have the names of the guys who did it but have never been able to prosecute due to the witnesses not being willing to stand up in a court of law...if we had been living in texas then those guys would have been fair game and i wouldnt have hesitated-but as we arent then they still continue their rampage
through society untouched- no one will ever have me believe thats the way to go!

if you were un/fortunate enuf to catch those guys in the act, I'm sure most people would understand and grant you a self defense angle, if the bad guys came to harm.

the fact is however that it was Horns neighbour who was being done over, and he being understandably ticked off about it, foolishly decided to indulge in some vigilante justice.

Most western countries have kinda made that illegal at this point.

On the issue of them stepping on his lawn in the confontation, you could justify the first killing perhaps, but the accomplice no doubt realised this old guy was serious at that point, and probably decided to leg it. The tape seems to suggest so, which Horns response to, was to blow the sucka away.

Do the police even have a shoot to kill policy if the perp is fleeing?

Pompey Magnus

Stekelly wrote: »

Might not stop them doing it but it sure as hell stop reoffending in its tracks.

Where do you draw the line? These guys had a couple of thousand dollars, you think that was enough to warrent their execution. How about someone who pickpockets a wallet with fifty dollars, would you think that is an acceptable sum to kill for? What if a woman steals a pair of jeans from a clothes store, could the manager be justified in grabbing his shotgun and shooting her in the back as she left the store? If you are happy to allow people kill criminals then you should point out where you draw the line.

From the recording it sounds like the police had already arrived and they would have caught the guys and brought them to justice, this guy took the law into his own hands and killed two people for a relatively minor crime. Indefensible in my opinion.

Guy:Incognito

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Where do you draw the line? These guys had a couple of thousand dollars, you think that was enough to warrent their execution. How about someone who pickpockets a wallet with fifty dollars, would you think that is an acceptable sum to kill for? What if a woman steals a pair of jeans from a clothes store, could the manager be justified in grabbing his shot gun and shooting her in the back?

.

Why are you pretending like all crimes are the same. Pickpocketing and stealing from a shop are not the same as somebody coming into my home where my family are and putting us in danger. I have no problem with people being killed while stealign someones property like that. Call me what you like but I dont put a value on the lives of those sort of people. I just plain dont care what happens to them.

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

From the recording it sounds like the police had already arrived and they would have caught the guys and brought them to justice, this guy took the law into his own hands and killed two people for a relatively minor crime. Indefensible in my opinion.

Makes little difference to me. He saved the state a lot of mon ey in bringing them to court and possibly having to spend huge amounts keepign them in jail only for them to be out later and have to spend more money repeatign the whole process.

If I had my way, junkies, criminals etc would be used in wars as connon fodder.

Pompey Magnus

Stekelly wrote: »

Why are you pretending like all crimes are the same. Pickpocketing and stealing from a shop are not the same as somebody coming into my home where my family are and putting us in danger. I have no problem with people being killed while stealign someones property like that.

I thought the house was empty at the time. Who was in danger?

Guy:Incognito

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I thought the house was empty at the time. Who was in danger?

What about next time? This way there wont be and they wont be terrifing any familes. Again, no sympathy.

I'm sure you'll be as sympathetic should you wake up some night with a guy rifling through the draws in your room.

Pompey Magnus

Stekelly wrote: »

What about next time?

Ah, so it was a pre-emptive strike? They might have posed a danger to someone in the future so we should kill them now just in case.

I'm sure you'll be as sympathetic should you wake up some night with a guy rifling through the draws in your room.

I have been burgled and I have been pick pocketed, if I was given the opportunity I would not have had the guilty people killed, put then I am probably a bleeding hearted liberal.