French military show goes wrong!

Local-womanizer

A military shooting demonstration in south east France has left 16 people wounded, after real bullets were used instead of blanks.

Four of the wounded are in a critical condition, including a young child.

A Defence Ministry official said the incident occurred during a demonstration of hostage-freeing techniques at a barracks in Aude.

The soldier who fired the shots has been detained. It is not clear why the wrong ammunition was used.

Reports from the scene say the hostage scenario had been acted out five times before a crowd at the Laperrine military barracks, near Carcassonne, when on the sixth take real bullets began flying through the air, and onlookers fell to the ground.

In a statement, French President Nicolas Sarkozy expressed his horror at the incident and said he was urgently waiting for the results of an official investigation.

A regional official, Bernard Lemaire, told France 3 radio that it is thought the incident was accidental but that foul play has not been ruled out.

"The question being asked is 'Did the soldier engage in a criminal act or not?'," Mr Lemaire said.

"For now, no-one can answer that, but the theory being worked on is one of error," he added.

The critically injured victims were taken to hospital in Toulouse.


Sounds like a big mistake to let happen.Hope everyone recovers.

The Black Oil

Heard about this on the radio this morning. Let's hope everyone pulls through.

Good Lord, I'm shocked. :eek:

That has to be the worst nightmare of marksmen and reenactors everywhere. Just goes to show that these are killing machines, and the safety precautions are there for a very good reason.

Wishing a speedy recovery as well.

Nuttzz

no blank fire attachments? interesting

Morlar

Pretty horrific stuff . . .

'No psychological problems'

However, Defence Minister Herve Morin said: "I cannot rule out anything because we don't know what might be going on in a man's head."

He said "an experienced soldier" should not be able to confuse blanks with real bullets.

"According to initial findings of the inquiry, the incident involved a soldier with a perfect record, who had participated in operations and had seven to eight years of experience," he said.

"There is nothing that would make one think he had behavioural or psychological problems," he added.

Reports from the scene say the hostage scenario had been acted out five times before a crowd at the Laperrine military barracks, near Carcassonne, when on the sixth take real bullets began flying through the air, and onlookers fell to the ground. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7480483.stm


You would wonder how a hostage scenario would require the soldier to point and shoot at 15 civilian spectators (on target) and 2 fellow soldiers. Hopefully they will all make a full recovery and find out exactly what happened there.

The Black Oil

The CoS of their army has resigned. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7483159.stm

That was quick. I can only imagine the reaction if there was some sort of scandal (not involving danger to human life) in the Irish political context.:rolleyes: However, that's another topic.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7481982.stm
The victims included a three-year-old boy, who was hit in the heart, and both of his parents.

Awful

arybvtcw0eolkf

There was a similar accident in 'The Glen only a few year's ago.

Although only one guy was badly wounded the circumstances were very similar.

A sentry was also part of the exercise, after emptying his mag of blanks he changed mags and put in a charged mag and shot a soldier in his trench.

Anyone here in Cathal Brugha Bks will be more familiar with the incident than I am.

Morlar

Mairt wrote: »

only one guy was badly wounded the circumstances were very similar.

I think thats kind of understandable mistake - and will probably continue to happen from time to time regardless of the precautions. One accidental shooting is understandable imo - though not forgivable. But to accidentally hit 17 people without noticing is a bit much. The only thing I can think of would be if the bullets travelled through more than one person, like say each round hit 3 people or say, if it was in some kind of training room /scenario where he had no visibility but where his bullets passed right through wooden walls or something like that. How else could he not have noticed shooting 17 people?

Cato

Morlar wrote: »

I think thats kind of understandable mistake - and will probably continue to happen from time to time regardless of the precautions. One accidental shooting is understandable imo - though not forgivable. But to accidentally hit 17 people without noticing is a bit much. The only thing I can think of would be if the bullets travelled through more than one person, like say each round hit 3 people or say, if it was in some kind of training room /scenario where he had no visibility but where his bullets passed right through wooden walls or something like that. How else could he not have noticed shooting 17 people?

maybe it was part of the drill were a firing squad sprayed blanks into the crowd for a reaction?

Morlar

Cato wrote: »

maybe it was part of the drill were a firing squad sprayed blanks into the crowd for a reaction?

I suppose thats another possibility too.

DublinWriter

Cato wrote: »

maybe it was part of the drill were a firing squad sprayed blanks into the crowd for a reaction?

My Uncle served in both the Irish and British armies and always used to tell me that a weapon should only be aimed when you intend to kill.

I couldn't see many other armed forces putting on such hi-jinx and grandstanding.

Cato

just a guess really, i find it hard other wise to understand how he accidentally did all that damage without realizing.

Poccington

Mairt wrote: »

There was a similar accident in 'The Glen only a few year's ago.

Although only one guy was badly wounded the circumstances were very similar.

A sentry was also part of the exercise, after emptying his mag of blanks he changed mags and put in a charged mag and shot a soldier in his trench.

Anyone here in Cathal Brugha Bks will be more familiar with the incident than I am.

I've heard of that one myself, quite the story.

The lad that was shot is still serving.

sunnyjim

Poccington wrote: »

I've heard of that one myself, quite the story.

The lad that was shot is still serving.

But is the lad who pulled the trigger still serving?

Local-womanizer

I just cant understand that a long serving solider could make that mistake,especially when the public are are around.But then again we dont know the whole story.Heard today that everyone is making a recovery which is good to hear.

Hagar

A tragic story.

Let's not forget a modern firearm on full auto will fire 17 rounds in only a fraction of second. Compare the reaction time to cease fire when the error was realised to the reaction time to hit the brakes on a car. Half a second is a long time firing at say 600 rpm.
Accidents happen, military accidents tend to be very serious.

Poccington

Local-womanizer wrote: »

I just cant understand that a long serving solider could make that mistake,especially when the public are are around.But then again we dont know the whole story.Heard today that everyone is making a recovery which is good to hear.

These things happen.

Although he was a long serving soldier, He may have just been a bit lazy doing his drills..... Although it still doesn't explain why he had a full magazine of live ammo sitting in pouches.

The whole training exercise excuse makes no sense.... How could you possibly leave a live mag sitting there after an Ex?

Poccington

sunnyjim wrote: »

But is the lad who pulled the trigger still serving?

I couldn't tell ya to be honest.

The lads with more service than me may be able to answer that though.

Stercus Accidit

I was reading the times article on this today, some mention was made of a "lever" on the famas that prevents it from firing real bullets when being used for a blank fire exercise, the implication was he would have had to switch this lever to use the mag of live ammo he had.

Does this make sense to anyone?

The article said if set for use with blanks, but live ammo was used it would cause the gun to explode, therefore he would have to have set the gun to fire live ammo intentionally.

Conversely, this "lever" sounds a bit odd, in the field having a lever that could be accidentally hit that would cause the gun to explode if used seems a bit unlikely, could it have been an adjustable gas system they were on about, like the regulator on the steyr for example, if so could a rifle fire live rounds when set for blanks?

Cato

ive seen picture of famas and i thought that lever was just for loading the bullet (of whatever type) into the chamber, i think thats wron, but then again i aint no expert!

Tribunius

Motosam wrote: »

I was reading the times article on this today, some mention was made of a "lever" on the famas that prevents it from firing real bullets when being used for a blank fire exercise, the implication was he would have had to switch this lever to use the mag of live ammo he had.

Does this make sense to anyone?

The article said if set for use with blanks, but live ammo was used it would cause the gun to explode, therefore he would have to have set the gun to fire live ammo intentionally.

Conversely, this "lever" sounds a bit odd, in the field having a lever that could be accidentally hit that would cause the gun to explode if used seems a bit unlikely, could it have been an adjustable gas system they were on about, like the regulator on the steyr for example, if so could a rifle fire live rounds when set for blanks?

No there is no such lever. What they were probably on about is a BFA Blank Firing Adaptor). This is basically a metal plug with a small hole in the centre that screws into the barrel. This traps enough gas in the system to allow the rifle to cycle ie load another round.

If you fired a live round with ones of these attached it is quite possible that your barrel could explode. It can also just be blown off (the barrel will bulge though) as seems to be the case here.

Also the famas has a cyclic rate of 1000 to 1100 rounds per minute. So on full auto it will take just under 2 seconds to empty a full 30rd mag.

the_syco

Nuttzz wrote: »

no blank fire attachments? interesting

Here's the thing, yeah, after firing a mag of blanks, he then took out a mag from his pocket, and shot people. The two mags look very different, so I'd say something ain't quite right in the lads head.

Article taken from here

A French soldier shot and wounded 17 people, including five children, when he fired live rounds instead of blanks at visitors watching a hostage-taking exercise in an army barracks.
"Suddenly, people were falling, we thought it was part of the exercise, and then we saw blood," one witness told AFP on Monday.
A senior army officer insisted that the incident Sunday at a barracks near the southwestern city of Carcassonne was almost certainly the result of an "unintentional" error.
Fifteen civilians were among those injured, including a three-year-old boy and a six-year-old girl who were both operated on overnight and were described Monday as being in a stable condition. Two soldiers were also injured.
The soldier who fired the shots, a sergeant described as experienced with no history of behavioural or psychological problems, was detained following the incident.
An army source said three other soldiers were also detained.
The eyewitness who spoke to AFP, who asked not to be named, said there were seven or eight soldiers with guns taking part in the exercise, with one of them in the middle of the hundreds of spectators pretending to be a terrorist.
Immediately after the real shots were fired, "an official shouted out over the loudspeakers "Cease fire!", he said.
The use of the live rounds was "99.9 percent" likely to be "an unintentional fault," said Colonel Benoit Royal, the head of the French army's information service.
Military and civilian investigators immediately opened probes into the events at the Third Marine Parachute Regiment barracks.
"I cannot rule out anything because we don't know what might be going on in a man's head," Defence Minister Herve Morin said on France Info radio.
He said the shooter had first fired a magazine of blanks and then loaded a fresh magazine but this time with live bullets.
"Why did he have it in his pocket?" he asked.
He said an experienced soldier would not confuse blanks and real bullets, noting that the two munitions are packed into different-coloured magazines.
The senior official for the Aude region where Carcassonne is located, Bernard Lemaire, said that investigators believed the deadly ammunition was loaded by mistake.
"The question being asked is 'Did the soldier engage in a criminal act or not?'," Lemaire said. "For now, no one can answer that, but the theory being worked on is one of error."
French President Nicolas Sarkozy was due to visit the injured in the hospitals in Carcassonne and Toulouse, his office said.
Gilles Hulard, a doctor from Carcassonne's rescue service, said the injured had received first aid within three to four minutes of the shooting.
The Third Marine Parachute Regiment based outside of Carcassonne numbers 1,200 troops.

Tribunius

the_syco wrote: »

Here's the thing, yeah, after firing a mag of blanks, he then took out a mag from his pocket, and shot people. The two mags look very different, so I'd say something ain't quite right in the lads head.

Article taken from here

That is taken out of context. You can't fire a full mag of blanks on full auto without a BFA (explained above). Sure he reloaded but it was just part of the show.

This was just a terrible accident in my opinion.

Clip from the show not the actual event.
http://dailymotion.alice.it/cluster/...du-280608_news

arybvtcw0eolkf

sunnyjim wrote: »

But is the lad who pulled the trigger still serving?

Yes.

Stercus Accidit

Tribunius wrote: »

No there is no such lever. What they were probably on about is a BFA Blank Firing Adaptor). This is basically a metal plug with a small hole in the centre that screws into the barrel. This traps enough gas in the system to allow the rifle to cycle ie load another round.

If you fired a live round with ones of these attached it is quite possible that your barrel could explode. It can also just be blown off (the barrel will bulge though) as seems to be the case here.

Also the famas has a cyclic rate of 1000 to 1100 rounds per minute. So on full auto it will take just under 2 seconds to empty a full 30rd mag.

That sounds like it makes more sense.


If he was frantically reloading as he probably had been doing all day for the demo, he may have missed the difference in the magazine he was carrying.

It was hypothesised that the loaded mag could have come from a previous live fire exercise, in which case it may have been inadvertently left in his vest or with the blanks.
At the very least it sound like a serious breach of safety protocol, if not something more sinister.