Horrendus or Humane?

elgriff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMALbjYnNNQ

whitser

looks instant and humane to me.

meathstevie

Bullet or shot wouldn't be any quicker by the looks of it. That's some shooting...

thehair

a bit mad but good shooting with a BOW:eek:steve:D

patbundy

very nice shooting.felt sorry for the fourth guy though being caught on the job:D:D:D

Sparks

Looks humane.
Now, where are the out-takes where the guy with the crossbow missed? Those would be horriffic. There's a reason you normally do this sort of thing up close...

John Griffin

Ivan is going to wet himself:D:D:D

Tackleberry.

John Griffin wrote: »

Ivan is going to wet himself:D:D:D

+1 will he write a book or a one liner that won;t be topped

Grizzly 45

Does it really exist,or an elaborate spoof???

Sparks

It appears to be real:
http://arrowds.com/catalog/gobblerguillotine125grain-p-30.html

Grizzly 45

Okay,humane enough then.Fowl is generally done in with a blade in commerical production anyway.

Sparks

Sure it's humane - when you hit the target. And wasn't it you in another thread on deer hunting less than an hour ago saying that sometimes when you do everything right, stuff just goes wrong anyway?
Wring the bird's neck or decapitate it properly, not with some gimmick like this ffs.

Cpt.Blackadder

Those are all the rage for turkey hunting in the states apparently. I don't know who makes them but they are pretty dramatic. All they are is an arrow with 4 razor blades attached. I'd say it looks like instant death, decapitation is pretty serious if I remember Leaving Cert biology.:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

So you are now going to invent a new sport of hunting wild turkeys with your bare hands,one of the most artful game birds ????Love to see it in action ROTFLAMO.
Sorry forgot Sparks...you Never make mistakes either...Never had the perfect shot[as so you thought]go wrong?
Stop being an engineer and admit to being human ffs Or are you from planet Vulcan??
When you hit the target,if it decapitates the head,isnt that what it is supposed to do,not hit centre mass??
Logical.....

Mellor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So you are now going to invent a new sport of hunting wild turkeys with your bare hands,one of the most artful game birds ????Love to see it in action ROTFLAMO.
Sorry forgot Sparks...you Never make mistakes either...Never had the perfect shot[as so you thought]go wrong?
Stop being an engineer and admit to being human ffs Or are you from planet Vulcan??
When you hit the target,if it decapitates the head,isnt that what it is supposed to do,not hit centre mass??
Logical.....

I think you are missing the point, just because it can be humane, doesn't meant it is always humane.
(For the record, nothing is always humane)

CJhaughey

Sparks wrote: »

Sure it's humane - when you hit the target. And wasn't it you in another thread on deer hunting less than an hour ago saying that sometimes when you do everything right, stuff just goes wrong anyway?
Wring the bird's neck or decapitate it properly, not with some gimmick like this ffs.

And how do you wring the birds neck? walk over and pick it up?
Decapitate it how? By throwing a cleaver at it?
These look efficient and with a 4" radius they offer a lot bigger kill radius then a bullet.

Sparks

You wring the bird's neck by catching it, holding it under one arm, then pulling and breaking the neck with the other arm. Will you look silly running round after a turkey? Bet your arse you will. Tough. You wanted to hunt the bird rather than raising it yourself, didn't you?
(and you decapitate it with a blade the way we've decapitated chickens and turkeys with a blade for a few thousand years - with an axe or a similar heavy sharp blade).
The point being, you're right up close and can't miss because of some random puff of wind.
(How come it's fine to argue for hunting with hounds because the up-close nature of the kill prevents wounded animals escaping to die of sepsis, but you can't argue that in this case, where one miss and you have a badly injured bird running away? I mean, they say to use this thing on feckin ostriches and even at point blank range, that does not look like a quick humane kill to me...)


Grizzly, if you want to hunt the turkey, okay. But for crying out loud, get the right tool for the job (a shotgun). This need for yahoos to get the latest feckin' gimmicky toy to kill an animal with is just downright... disrespectful.

bunny shooter

John Griffin wrote: »

Ivan is going to wet himself:D:D:D

He'll be in his element Now he'll want to know if it's legal here

pullandbang

Presumably if you wound a bird with the weird helicopter arrowhead, you do what we all do - send your dog after it, bring it back and then wring it's neck.

No different to taking it with a shotgun - just looks more skilful.

Grizzly 45

The point being, you're right up close and can't miss because of some random puff of wind.

Said the man an hour ago who was arguing that you must take in every consideration when shooting deer for all unforseen events:p

(How come it's fine to argue for hunting with hounds because the up-close nature of the kill prevents wounded animals escaping to die of sepsis, but you can't argue that in this case, where one miss and you have a badly injured bird running away? I mean, they say to use this thing on feckin ostriches and even at point blank range, that does not look like a quick humane kill to me...)

How far will it run with a partly severd head or a 4in blade stuck in it before it bleeds out?

Grizzly, if you want to hunt the turkey, okay. But for crying out loud, get the right tool for the job (a shotgun). This need for yahoos to get the latest feckin' gimmicky toy to kill an animal with is just downright... disrespectful.

[/QUOTE]
Or a 22mag rifle..but then again it is a tricky target too a head shot on a turkey.As with all live targets.If it gets the job done better in a specific field of hunting to dispatch the game is it a gimmick?

togster

I agree with Sparks. A misplaced arrow could cause some severe injuries.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Said the man an hour ago who was arguing that you must take in every consideration when shooting deer for all unforseen events:p

*looks at Grizzly patiently*
Yes?
And?
I'm saying you have to get up close and do the job right, not stand back with the latest gimmicky toy and see how wrong you can get it...

How far will it run with a partly severd head or a 4in blade stuck in it before it bleeds out?

Dunno. How long will a deer run if you just get it in the liver with a .270?

Or a 22mag rifle

Isn't it illegal to shoot wildfowl with a rifle in Ireland?

As with all live targets.If it gets the job done better in a specific field of hunting to dispatch the game is it a gimmick?

That's a pretty big "If" there Grizzly. I'd want to see someone other than the guy selling it prove that it's more effective and humane before I'd change my mind.

Dvs

Mellor wrote: »

I think you are missing the point, just because it can be humane, doesn't meant it is always humane.
(For the record, nothing is always humane)

The point is that,
this is legal in the jurisdiction where it is taking place.

As a hunter you try to do the best you can,
to be efficient in killing the chosen animal you are hunting,
with the tools you are using without causing undue suffering.

No hunting method will ever be humane enough,
for someone who is against hunting.



Dvs.

Sparks

Dvs wrote: »

The point is that,
this is legal in the jurisdiction where it is taking place.

Speaking as the chap making the point in the first place, no, that's not it.
Mellor was on the money - the point isn't the cases where it works well (which are all we're being shown here in the video by the people trying to sell this gimmick), the point is the ratio of cases where it works humanely to those where it does not.

There are several tried and trusted methods for humanely dispatching food animals. When some random company invents something that sounds like a special effects director trying frat-boy humour, I can't help but think it's (to steal a phrase) the answer to a question nobody was interested in asking in the first place.

thehair

well if i was hunting for a big turkey i would used a shotgun to shoot him or
her in the head under 60 yards it will work:D HOW many turkey do you see
running around without it head when out hunting steve:eek::Din or outside
ireland

Dvs

Sparks wrote: »

Speaking as the chap making the point in the first place, no, that's not it.
Mellor was on the money - the point isn't the cases where it works well (which are all we're being shown here in the video by the people trying to sell this gimmick), the point is the ratio of cases where it works humanely to those where it does not.

Sparks you made your own point as you see it,
I made mine.

Sparks wrote: »

There are several tried and trusted methods for humanely dispatching food animals. .

Sparks, you have never used any method to dispatch a food animal.

I have, none is always humane for want of a better term.

Sparks wrote: »

When some random company invents something that sounds like a special effects director trying frat-boy humour, I can't help but think it's (to steal a phrase) the answer to a question nobody was interested in asking in the first place.

What personal knowledge or experience, do you think gives you the expertise to decide that this is not an effective improved development in bow hunting equipment for the purpose of hunting turkeys in the USA, over using existing broadhead arrows currently on the market.

The random company as you call them, has demonstrated experience and knowledge of hunting turkey in the USA.

And it would be the choice of those hunters involved in turkey hunting in the USA to decide if they wanted to use this product.

Dvs.

thehair

Madame TogBog wrote: »

I agree with Sparks. A misplaced arrow could cause some severe injuries.

you could also say the same about a bullet near miss or i shot him just
a little low the turkey only half dead still running around that is my
point of view.steve

Sparks

Dvs wrote: »

Sparks you made your own point as you see it,
I made mine.

That's fine. Just don't tell mellor he's missed my point when he's gotten it exactly right...

What personal knowledge or experience, do you think gives you the expertise to decide that this is not an effective improved development in bow hunting equipment

I think you missed my point again - which was that wringing the birds neck by hand or chopping its head off while you have it physically restrained so you doesn't miss, or opening an artery with a knife while it's stunned, or any of the standard techniques used are all superior to bow hunting. My personal knowlege and experience based on fourteen years of using firearms as well as thirty-odd years of common sense tells me that projectiles, be they from a firearm or from a bow, do not always go where you just know they're going to go before you fire them. Are you going to tell me you know different? Because if you are, think for a moment about why you don't have all the medals in all the competitions you've ever entered.

I'm not vegetarian or vegan or anything like that, I think we evolved as omnivores and animal protein is an important part of our diet, and I have zero problem with killing an animal to provide food. But I also believe that if you're going to kill a thing, you have an ethical duty to do it right, not mess about trying to do it with some sort of target shooting gizmo that some random company is trying to sell to you as the next best thing since sliced bread.

And it would be the choice of those hunters involved in turkey hunting in the USA to decide if they wanted to use this product.

And my choice to think of them as being disrespectful to the animal they're hunting, and thus not real hunters. Just like any sperm donor can create a fetus without being worthy of the title "father", any idiot can eventually kill an animal without being worthy of the title "hunter".

Dvs

Sparks wrote: »

That's fine. Just don't tell mellor he's missed my point when he's gotten it exactly right...

Sparks I did not tell mellor he missed anything.

I stated the point as I see it.

Re-read my post and tell me where I did this.

The problem with you discussing the subjects of the hunting forum is,
that you do not hunt hunting is not target shooting,
you are trying to reason using what you know, which is ISSF target shooting.

Sparks wrote: »

My personal knowlege and experience based on fourteen years of using firearms as well as thirty-odd years of common sense tells me that projectiles, be they from a firearm or from a bow, do not always go where you just know they're going to go before you fire them. Are you going to tell me you know different? Because if you are, think for a moment about why you don't have all the medals in all the competitions you've ever entered.

Hunting does not require target shooting max or near max scores,
down three or four points and your not in the medals does not apply.

If you don't hit exact point of aim shooting an animal, it is still dead.

I have killed animals in a slaughter house.

I have killed animals with firearms and a bow.

Arrows generally do not kill animals in the same way as a firearm,
knock down is not a primary factor, cutting a bleed channel is,
but I would not expect you to know that.

Dvs.

yank_in_eire

I have hunted turkeys with a bow using normal broadheads and the generally accepted best shot is straight through both wings or dead center of the chest if the bird is facing you or center of the back if it's not.
I don't know if I would use this contraption, but aiming for a head shot with it seems ok. If you miss high, right or left you won't hit anything, miss low and you will still hit major arteries and organs which will put the bird down quickly.
It does look a bit OTT though.

Dvs

Sparks wrote: »

And my choice to think of them as being disrespectful to the animal they're hunting, and thus not real hunters. Just like any sperm donor can create a fetus without being worthy of the title "father", any idiot can eventually kill an animal without being worthy of the title "hunter".

Sparks, this whole respecting your quarry is a pile of rubbish.

If someone respected an animal so much,
why would they kill it ?

An ethical hunter does not want to inflict undue pain or suffering on the animal they are hunting, but they do intend to kill it.

As another poster stated decapitation is pretty effective.

I think its closer to the truth that you find it offensive,
the turkeys head being chopped of so graphically.

If it fell over gracefully and gave one kick and expired,
you might find it less offensive.

But the Turkey would be dead either way.

Dvs.

thehair

If you don't hit exact point of aim shooting an animal, it is still dead.
HOW IS IT STILL DEAD
IF YOU SHOOT A ANIMAL AND MISS:eek: IT MUST DIE OF OLD AGE
YES OR NO

Dvs

thehair wrote: »

If you don't hit exact point of aim shooting an animal, it is still dead.
HOW IS IT STILL DEAD
IF YOU SHOOT A ANIMAL AND MISS:eek: IT MUST DIE OF OLD AGE
YES OR NO

Simple,
ISSF Target centre a few mm if you miss centre by an inch,
drop many points no medals for you.

Deer kill zone 6 - 8 inches miss centre by an inch, drop deer.

Rabbit kill zone 1 3/4 inches miss centre by an inch, drop rabbit.

Dvs.

It wasn't me!

Respect for your quarry is not rubbish. I disagree that it's disrespectful to lop the head off, and this device seems pretty humane if always used for headshots (It's like an airborne food processor), but respect is paramount. That means not taking pot-shots with the mentality of "fudge it, it's only a fox/rabbit/pigeon/whatever". With every shot, do everything in your power to ensure a good clean kill. If things go wrong, that happens too, but if things go wrong and you don't really care, because it was only a fox/rabbit/pigeon/whatever, then that's not showing the respect due to your quarry.

stink_fist

Notice how they cut the clip a few seconds after the head comes off? thats because the headless chicken will start flying around the place for a minute or more.

thehair

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Respect for your quarry is not rubbish. I disagree that it's disrespectful to lop the head off, and this device seems pretty humane if always used for headshots (It's like an airborne food processor), but respect is paramount. That means not taking pot-shots with the mentality of "fudge it, it's only a fox/rabbit/pigeon/whatever". With every shot, do everything in your power to ensure a good clean kill. If things go wrong, that happens too, but if things go wrong and you don't really care, because it was only a fox/rabbit/pigeon/whatever, then that's not showing the respect due to your quarry.

this is a very good point of view:)steve

nice1franko

Looks humane to me.

HOWEVER, it also seems a bit fukcing stupid.

Firstly, if you miss, I reckon there's a fairly good chance that turkey is going to be one mangled, inedible mess.

Secondly, right at the end of the clip when the fella comes out of the hide to collect the turkey - did you see how close he was to it?! the thing was right at his feet he could have sliced its head off with a long knife!! Americanos :rolleyes: they'll be using grenades on them next.

Dvs

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Respect for your quarry is not rubbish. I disagree that it's disrespectful to lop the head off, and this device seems pretty humane if always used for headshots (It's like an airborne food processor), but respect is paramount. That means not taking pot-shots with the mentality of "fudge it, it's only a fox/rabbit/pigeon/whatever".

I don't think your a hunter either It wasn't me!,

It may surprise you that,
most animals either are moving or may move at anytime,
missing the point of aim can be caused by this,
not any fudging on the part of the hunter.

It wasn't me! wrote: »

With every shot, do everything in your power to ensure a good clean kill. If things go wrong, that happens too, but if things go wrong and you don't really care, because it was only a fox/rabbit/pigeon/whatever, then that's not showing the respect due to your quarry.

I do not take pot shots,
not out of respect for for my quarry,
respect is not paramount,
Safety is paramount.

I am confident in my equipment and my ability to use it,
and do my utmost to cleanly kill anything I hunt.

If things go wrong I do care.



Thats what follow up shots are for,
and I practice those also.

You must have missed the part of my post about ethical hunters not wanting to inflict undue pain and suffering.

Dvs.

It wasn't me!

Dvs wrote: »

I don't think your a hunter either It wasn't me!

You'd be wrong. Yes, things can go wrong, and you have to allow for that and correct for it. It seems, however, that we think exactly alike, but use different words for the same thing. I use respect, where you do it for no other reason than that you feel it's ethical, which seems to be the same thing to me, so we do agree then.

elgriff

nice1franko wrote: »

Looks humane to me.

HOWEVER, it also seems a bit fukcing stupid.

Firstly, if you miss, I reckon there's a fairly good chance that turkey is going to be one mangled, inedible mess.

Secondly, right at the end of the clip when the fella comes out of the hide to collect the turkey - did you see how close he was to it?! the thing was right at his feet he could have sliced its head off with a long knife!! Americanos :rolleyes: they'll be using grenades on them next.

stink_fist wrote: »

Notice how they cut the clip a few seconds after the head comes off? thats because the headless chicken will start flying around the place for a minute or more.

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Respect for your quarry is not rubbish. I disagree that it's disrespectful to lop the head off, and this device seems pretty humane if always used for headshots (It's like an airborne food processor), but respect is paramount. That means not taking pot-shots with the mentality of "fudge it, it's only a fox/rabbit/pigeon/whatever". With every shot, do everything in your power to ensure a good clean kill. If things go wrong, that happens too, but if things go wrong and you don't really care, because it was only a fox/rabbit/pigeon/whatever, then that's not showing the respect due to your quarry.

Sparks wrote: »

Grizzly, if you want to hunt the turkey, okay. But for crying out loud, get the right tool for the job (a shotgun). This need for yahoos to get the latest feckin' gimmicky toy to kill an animal with is just downright... disrespectful.

These are all of the points that I agree with. I think it is a gimmick that is made for cheap laughs. If it hit the bird in the body, it would cause real damage without any risk of death

Grizzly 45

[

quote=Sparks;56411351]*looks at Grizzly patiently*
Yes?
And?

So you admit then that things can go wrong despite ones best ability and plans in hunting?

I'm saying you have to get up close and do the job right, not stand back with the latest gimmicky toy and see how wrong you can get it...

Well that hide looked pretty close to the turkeys.Giving that max shot I ,personally would want to try on any game with an X bow would be 30 meters that looked within range.

Dunno. How long will a deer run if you just get it in the liver with a .270?

Not very far.Most I ever had was 250 meters with a lung shot.But that was a 7.65 x53R

Isn't it illegal to shoot wildfowl with a rifle in Ireland?

Errr so is hunting with an X bow/bow in Ireland.We dont have wild Turkeys here ASFIK.So this only applies to the US,or where X bow hunting is allowed..

That's a pretty big "If" there Grizzly. I'd want to see someone other than the guy selling it prove that it's more effective and humane before I'd change my mind.[/quote]

Like who??

thehair

John Griffin wrote: »

Ivan is going to wet himself:D:D:D

Like who??
have a guest grizzly 45:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Firstly, if you miss, I reckon there's a fairly good chance that turkey is going to be one mangled, inedible mess.

Hmmm.a four inch dia blade hitting a bird in the breast area.Not really,it will be well bled out though,but still useable.Doesnt have to be roasted whole.


[]

Americanos :rolleyes: they'll be using grenades on them next.

[/QUOTE]
Can we lay off the Yank bashing for one!!:mad::mad::mad:.I am one,and there are a few others here as well.Would you appreciate it if we went on about Paddies throwing Semtex at deer?????????

Grizzly 45

thehair wrote: »

Like who??
have a guest grizzly 45:rolleyes:

Am lost here Hair.

Dvs

elgriff wrote: »

These are all of the points that I agree with. I think it is a gimmick that is made for cheap laughs. If it hit the bird in the body, it would cause real damage without any risk of death

Well that goes to prove you must be another of the hunting experts posting in this thread.......

Can you explain how a carbon fibre or aluminium arrow topped with a razor sharp broadhead shot from a 60 - 70 lb compound bow at thirty metres or less, would cause real damage without any risk of death to the turkey for those of us less well informed.

Dvs.

thehair

[/quote]
Can we lay off the Yank bashing for one!!.I am one,and there are a few others here as well.Would you appreciate it if we went on about Paddies throwing Semtex at deer?????????

+1 steve this is the hunting forum NOT the attack forum grow up people

Sparks

Dvs, having respect for your quarry is not some stupid new-age hippy crap. It just means you use the right tool for the job and you do the job instead of mucking about. This thing's a frat-boy "hold my drink and watch this!" stunt.

Also, it's entirely possible to wound an animal non-fatally with that arrow. If you miss by an inch or three in the wrong direction (which is a damn sight easier with a bow than with a firearm), you'll only give it a shallow cut.

elgriff

Dvs wrote: »

Well that goes to prove you must be another of the hunting experts posting in this thread.......

Can you explain how a carbon fibre or aluminium arrow topped with a razor sharp broadhead shot from a 60 - 70 lb compound bow at thirty metres or less, would cause real damage without any risk of death to the turkey for those of us less well informed.

Dvs.

Can you explain why you initial evry post you make, even though your name is displayed just up to the left? The reader's here are not blind believe it or not. It would make sense for a long, well-informed post, but surely that wouldn't apply to you.

And of course by any real risk of death, I meant a very high chance of survival, as Sparks pointed out is the likely possibility in the event of a poor shot.

Dvs

Sparks wrote: »

Dvs, having respect for your quarry is not some stupid new-age hippy crap. It just means you use the right tool for the job and you do the job instead of mucking about. This thing's a frat-boy "hold my drink and watch this!" stunt.

Also, it's entirely possible to wound an animal non-fatally with that arrow. If you miss by an inch or three in the wrong direction (which is a damn sight easier with a bow than with a firearm), you'll only give it a shallow cut.

If you keep modifying your position on the disrespecting your quarry rubbish you will soon be agreeing with me!

I do not take pot shots,
not out of respect for for my quarry,
respect is not paramount,
Safety is paramount.

I am confident in my equipment and my ability to use it,
and do my utmost to cleanly kill anything I hunt.

If things go wrong I do care.



Thats what follow up shots are for,
and I practice those also.

You must have missed the part of my post about ethical hunters not wanting to inflict undue pain and suffering.



Sparks,
can you tell me exactly what experience do you have,
shooting a compound bow?

To be able to make such comments on compound bow accuracy ?

Dvs.

ivanthehunter

Yes i WET myself:D:D:D
Great device for a specific job when used by a well trained shooter.

Remember that bow hunting/fishing is big in the USA and they love their turkey shoots. IMO its great because it Green:rolleyes: and quite as to not disturb other wildfowl in the area that might be attracted to the baited area.

I personal would be after something with bigger ears:rolleyes:

What price are flights to the USA?:rolleyes:

Dvs

elgriff wrote: »

Can you explain why you initial evry post you make, even though your name is displayed just up to the left? The reader's here are not blind believe it or not. It would make sense for a long, well-informed post, but surely that wouldn't apply to you.

And of course by any real risk of death, I meant a very high chance of survival, as Sparks pointed out is the likely possibility in the event of a poor shot.

My previous post to you, asked for you to share the expertise on which you base your previous false and inaccurate statement that a body hit on a turkey with this type of arrow would not kill it.

You have not,
Instead you have made a personal comment about my initialing my posts.

I am well informed on all the topics touched on in this thread,
I have many years hunting experience,
I have direct personal first hand experience in anything I stated,
If you have something factual to respond with please do.

If not don't.

Dvs.