More Italian politics.

brianthebard

From independent.co.uk;

The Interior Minister, Roberto Maroni, a leader of the rabble-rousing Northern League – close allies of Silvio Berlusconi on the government benches – has explained his next step in his assault on the "emergenza di sicurezza", the "security emergency": fingerprinting all Gypsies.

It was the only way, he told a parliamentary committee on Wednesday, for Italy to guarantee "to those who have the right to remain here, the possibility of living in decent conditions." For this purpose the Roma – those with Italian nationality and those without, EU citizens and those from outside the Community – will all have their fingerprints taken. And the rule will even apply to Gypsy children – for reasons that to many of Mr Maroni's supporters must have sounded obvious: "to avoid phenomena," as he put it, "such as begging". The new measures, he said, were indispensable "in order to expel those who do not have the right to stay in Italy".

full article here

The very right wing Italian government has been claiming for a while now that the Roma's in Italy, and immigrants in general, are the cause of all their woes. Despite being horse **** it seems the Italian citizens are willing to believe it, and soon there will be an ethnic register of all gypsies and later all immigrants in Italy.

Gypsies are blamed across Europe for a multitude of sins, but the reality is they are probably the worst treated ethnic minority in the EU. However some countries like Spain have shown that with proper care and attention their lot can be improved(although there is much more to be done). The Italian government doesn't believe this is possible and wants instead to isolate gyspies even further and possibly expel them all, or as many as possible, from the country. What I don't understand is why these xenophobes have the support of the Italian people (at least those that voted for the Northern League and Berlusconi's party). Thoughts?

mike65

Why is easy enough, anecdotal "evidence" and ignorance. The irony is that as the modern wimmins of Italy flatly refuse to have more than 1.4 children the country will either have to live with immigration in the long term or go into a population crash.

Mike.

Kama

The quotes from the Northern League seem a blast from the facist past:

“It is easier to destroy rats as wipe out the gypsies.”
“People are going to do what the political class cannot.”
Rossi

Seriously, is this legal, in the EU?
Or is a blind eye just being turned?

I would have assumed we didn't legally condone racially-targeted legislation, government-incited pogroms against a scapegoat racial group, and militarization due to a 'security emergency'.

Apparently I was naive. For a country which invented the mafia, and whose current leader was a P2 member with alleged mafia links, blaming 'criminality' on gypsies seems a bit rich.

Tha Gopher

brianthebard wrote: »

Gypsies are blamed across Europe for a multitude of sins, but the reality is they are probably the worst treated ethnic minority in the EU. However some countries like Spain have shown that with proper care and attention their lot can be improved(although there is much more to be done). The Italian government doesn't believe this is possible and wants instead to isolate gyspies even further and possibly expel them all, or as many as possible, from the country.

How is it the responsibility of the Italian taxpayer to, as you seem to suggest, "civillise" foreign gypsies? Dont you think all available funds would be better spent lifting the economy in the South?

What I don't understand is why these xenophobes have the support of the Italian people (at least those that voted for the Northern League and Berlusconi's party). Thoughts?

I dunno

Increased crime, often violent and disproportionate to their percentage of the population
Few if any of them working and paying tax
Claiming benefits

Take your pick.


btw how much work do you do amongst the Roma community in your locality? I would have serious doubts about whether the OP was being serious or just trying to stir some shizzle.

Kama wrote: »

I would have assumed we didn't legally condone racially-targeted legislation, government-incited pogroms against a scapegoat racial group..... For a country which invented the mafia, blaming 'criminality' on gypsies seems a bit rich.

Those damn Italians stereotyping Gypsies as criminals, sure isnt the mafia an Italian invention!


I love the smell of irony in the evening........

marcsignal

brianthebard wrote: »

From independent.co.uk;
What I don't understand is why these xenophobes have the support of the Italian people (at least those that voted for the Northern League and Berlusconi's party). Thoughts?

Maybe because it's what the Italian people want? or maybe they have no more faith in the PC approach, and don't want to pay higher taxes for people who 'seem' to display a wanton disrespect for their host country, and the people in it ?

Democracy can be funny like that you see, people may not speak honestly in public about these things, for fear of being swept away and drowning in a Politically Correct Tsunami. Put the same people in a polling booth, and things can often be different.
Look at Ireland's citizenship referendum a few years back, says it all imo.

Tha Gopher wrote: »

How is it the responsibility of the Italian taxpayer to, as you seem to suggest, "civillise" foreign gypsies? Dont you think all available funds would be better spent lifting the economy in the South?

+1

Tha Gopher wrote: »

I dunno

Increased crime, often violent and disproportionate to their percentage of the population
Few if any of them working and paying tax
Claiming benefits

Take your pick.

+1

Tha Gopher wrote: »

btw how much work do you do amongst the Roma community in your locality? I would have serious doubts about whether the OP was being serious or just trying to stir some shizzle.

you spotted it too Gopher?

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Those damn Italians stereotyping Gypsies as criminals, sure isnt the mafia an Italian invention!

I love the smell of irony in the evening........

brianthebard

Tha Gopher wrote: »

How is it the responsibility of the Italian taxpayer to, as you seem to suggest, "civillise" foreign gypsies? Dont you think all available funds would be better spent lifting the economy in the South?

where did I suggest that gypsies need to be civilised? Furthermore, most gypsies in roma are Italian citizens. I believe that the education of the Italian people will lead to the lifting of the economy, not the shunning of a particular aspect of it.

Increased crime, often violent and disproportionate to their percentage of the population
Few if any of them working and paying tax
Claiming benefits

Take your pick.

Please provide figures that prove this, since the facts show that crimes of this nature have actually gone down. But by all means, don't let the facts get in the way of your bigotry.

btw how much work do you do amongst the Roma community in your locality? I would have serious doubts about whether the OP was being serious or just trying to stir some shizzle.

there are no gypsies in my locality, I live a number of miles from any large town. what is this shizzle you talk about?

Bubs101

brianthebard wrote:

The very right wing Italian government has been claiming for a while now that the Roma's in Italy, and immigrants in general, are the cause of all their woes. Despite being horse **** it seems the Italian citizens are willing to believe it, and soon there will be an ethnic register of all gypsies and later all immigrants in Italy.

What I don't understand is why these xenophobes have the support of the Italian people (at least those that voted for the Northern League and Berlusconi's party). Thoughts?

I take it that you have never lived in Italy, particularly the north? I have and the Roma are an absolute plague on Milan and Turin. They offer nothing to society, constantly cause fights, do nothing but beg, urinate on the streets, don't work, don't make any attempt to ingratiate themselves with communities, intimidate tourists and are responsible for a massive percentage of the crime in Italy(particularly in Rome) despite their relitively small numbers. Italians despise them so it's no wonder they have the people's support. If I could vote there, they'd have my vote.

Say for example, you had just bought a house or an appartment and a traveller moved his caravan across the street, his family pissed opposite your house, he just sat outside topless every day drinking beer infront of your kids, he'd beat the living daylights out of his wife in plain view of everybody (happened daily with the scum who lived opposite me) and played gypsy music all through the night and the most the police could do is move them inside. Would you not vote for somebody who would take the hardline?

brianthebard

Hi bubs,i've heard a rumour that settled people can be pricks,commit crimes and beat partners,do you tar them all with brush too?

marcsignal

brianthebard wrote: »

Hi bubs,i've heard a rumour that settled people can be pricks,commit crimes and beat partners......

Absolutely true, but when settled people indulge in Anti-Social Behaviour they generally draw negative attention to themselves, and I've heard of more than one case, of settled people being removed from their council houses/flats because of their antics, and complaints from neighbours, and rightly so.

Seriously brianthebard do you think the Italians all just woke up one morning and suddenly decided to hate the Roma ? Is this Bigotry something that just fell out of the sky to befall the Italian people ?

For the record, in my experience of people who like to lecture others about how bigoted they are, particularlly liberal politicians, they usually do so from behind their own electric gates. Now I'm not suggesting you personally, are living in a mansion far away from these problems, but I've found that some of the people who are ready to jump to defend Irish Travellers and Roma alike, only do so until they have some negative experience with them themselves.

For a society to function normally, there are unwritten rules that we all generally agree to follow, why shouldn't people be pissed off when the Roma don't? why should the Roma be exempt ? I mean, they choose to live the way they do.

The Roma that camped on the M50 Roundabout in Dublin had property in their home town in Romania, their own Mayor urged the Irish Government to deport them, it wasn't the bigoted Irish.

Tha Gopher

brianthebard wrote: »

where did I suggest that gypsies need to be civilised? Furthermore, most gypsies in roma are Italian citizens. I believe that the education of the Italian people will lead to the lifting of the economy, not the shunning of a particular aspect of it.

The gypsies they are seeking to expel are not Italian, and you know it. More pointless posting.

Please provide figures that prove this, since the facts show that crimes of this nature have actually gone down. But by all means, don't let the facts get in the way of your bigotry.

Here is a better idea.

The common perception is that a large amount of them are involved in criminality.

In order to show that this is complete sh1t, and that anyone who has this impression is a half wit racist, please provide us with statistics proving regular Italians are proportionally more likely to be involved in crime than foreign gypsies. That they are less likely to have a job and more likely to claim benefits than foreign Gypsies.

Show me all that and I will gladly STFU.


edit- meh, Ill just do it myself

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7073873.stm

Unless 75% of the population of Rome are Romanian, that figure is somewhat disproportionate.

there are no gypsies in my locality, I live a number of miles from any large town. what is this shizzle you talk about?

I`m sure you live near some town where they live, as they live pretty much anywhere in Ireland these days.

Why arent you helping them? Surely not a bad dose of NIMBY you have there Brian?

Keyboard activism must be great fun. It is all well and good to have your little rant on the internet, yet if you were standing infront of them in a queue you can bet your house you would be keeping your hands firmly in your pockets and checking them after you had parted company.

Bubs101

brianthebard wrote: »

Hi bubs,i've heard a rumour that settled people can be pricks,commit crimes and beat partners,do you tar them all with brush too?

No because they are in the minority, the activities that I described earlier are clearly carried out by the majority of Roma from what I saw and heard.

I really don't think you can understand the problem unless you have seen it first hand and spoken to some Italians about it. It's not as if Italian's have a problem with immigrants, they were the most inviting people I have ever met, they have a problem with the Roma because they really stain the image of the country

brianthebard

Tha Gopher wrote: »

The gypsies they are seeking to expel are not Italian, and you know it. More pointless posting.

yet they are registering all gypsies on this ethnic register. I see you ignored my point on education.

Here is a better idea.

The common perception is that a large amount of them are involved in criminality.

In order to show that this is complete sh1t, and that anyone who has this impression is a half wit racist, please provide us with statistics proving regular Italians are proportionally more likely to be involved in crime than foreign gypsies. That they are less likely to have a job and more likely to claim benefits than foreign Gypsies.

Show me all that and I will gladly STFU.

The article I posted a link to already stated that the serious crimes the Italian govt are accusing gyspies of are down.

I`m sure you live near some town where they live, as they live pretty much anywhere in Ireland these days.

More senseless generalisations.

Keyboard activism must be great fun. It is all well and good to have your little rant on the internet, yet if you were standing infront of them in a queue you can bet your house you would be keeping your hands firmly in your pockets and checking them after you had parted company.

Treating gyspies and travellers as human beings is the first step to helping them, in that sense I am helping them much more than you. Not that what I get up to personally should be any of your concern.

brianthebard

Bubs101 wrote: »

No because they are in the minority, the activities that I described earlier are clearly carried out by the majority of Roma from what I saw and heard.

I really don't think you can understand the problem unless you have seen it first hand and spoken to some Italians about it. It's not as if Italian's have a problem with immigrants, they were the most inviting people I have ever met, they have a problem with the Roma because they really stain the image of the country

Good to see that personal experiences outweigh facts now.

Tha Gopher

brianthebard wrote: »

yet they are registering all gypsies on this ethnic register. I see you ignored my point on education.

You didnt make a point about education. Not onme worth replying to at least.

The article I posted a link to already stated that the serious crimes the Italian govt are accusing gyspies of are down.

Surely there couldnt be a direct correlation between this and the deportations of Gypsies?

I dont know why Im bothering to post, you have pretty much highlighted that deporting them seems to be pushing down the crime rate. Aside from that the article is nothing more than a load of PC arse anyway.

brianthebard wrote: »

Good to see that personal experiences outweigh facts now.

That is

a- offensive, and

b- Rubbish. Generally you will find there is a good correlation between personal experience and the hard facts and figures your type crave. I sent you a link to a stat that they were responsible for 75% of crime in Rome. You have failed to counter this with anything remotely solid.

Treating gyspies and travellers as human beings is the first step to helping them, in that sense I am helping them much more than you. Not that what I get up to personally should be any of your concern.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

NIMBY, end of. Your posts on this thread are a joke based on half truths and ignoring what you know to be true.

brianthebard

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Surely there couldnt be a direct correlation between this and the deportations of Gypsies?

Can you tell me how many gypsies have been deported then? And how many of them committed crimes?

I dont know why Im bothering to post, you have pretty much highlighted that deporting them seems to be pushing down the crime rate. Aside from that the article is nothing more than a load of PC arse anyway.

How have you shown this? You posted an article in which a politican says that 75% of arrests for murder, rape and robbery.
This a-is a made up figure with no evidence to back it up, which I have pointed out from the start is the problem with what the Italian government has been doing.
And b- doesn't tell us how many convictions there have been.
and finally c- the article mentions Romanian people as a whole, not gyspies. Can you prove that all these Romanians mentioned were gypsies? I doubt it.

That is

a- offensive, and

b- Rubbish. Generally you will find there is a good correlation between personal experience and the hard facts and figures your type crave. I sent you a link to a stat that they were responsible for 75% of crime in Rome. You have failed to counter this with anything remotely solid.

Offensive to whom? You're here trying to damage my reputation and calling me names, and you are calling my posts offensive? I didn't realise you were so sensitive to other peoples plight Gopher.

NIMBY, end of. Your posts on this thread are a joke based on half truths and ignoring what you know to be true.

You've yet to prove anything as usual.

Fratton Fred

How do the government intend to identify "Roma" gypsys? maybe they could do a few genetic checks and then tattoo a star on their arm to make them stand out.

Maybe a few camps with barbed wire fences could be made to keep them in.

This is a very dangerous road the italians appear to be treading imho.

ejmaztec

The Italians aren't the only ones trying to make the Roma "invisible". A couple of years ago, the mayor of a Czech town had the Roma tenants of some dilapidated apartment building evicted, allegedly for non-payment of rent, then sent them on their way to a destination some 60 miles away from the town.

http://www.praguepost.com/articles/2007/04/11/the-authorities-sign-off-on-internal-exile.php

This doesn't seem to be as highly publicised as the Italian venture.

Some 95% of the Czech Roma were wiped out by the nazis. After the war, it seems that in the Iron Curtain countries, the communists decided to even out the Roma by spreading them all over the various Eastern-bloc countries. They wanted every country to get their fair share.

marcsignal

Forget the Italians & Czechs. The Finns have been having problems of their own too, not with Roma, but with Irish Travellers, believe it or not

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/travellers-cause-havoc-in-finland-crime-spree-1426218.html

so where are we now ?

The Italians are Racist, the Czechs are Racist, and the Finns are Racist ?? Christ! before we know where we are it'll be the Final Solution :rolleyes:

ejmaztec

marcsignal wrote: »

Forget the Italians & Czechs. The Finns have been having problems of their own too, not with Roma, but with Irish Travellers, believe it or not

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/travellers-cause-havoc-in-finland-crime-spree-1426218.html

Irish travellers? They're just tourists on a bender:o

Tha Gopher

brianthebard wrote: »

Can you tell me how many gypsies have been deported then? And how many of them committed crimes?

Im going to repeat this, as I dont think you got it the first time.

The Italians all assume there is a problem with gypsy anti social behaviour. Probably because every ATM scam in the newspaper involves Roma. Or they see them crating a nuisance on the streets. Or the dozens of murders commited as mentioned in the BBC article.

Now. It is your task to find figurees proving the above to be a load of nonsense. You cant. You also cant admit you are wrong, so you harp on with the same PC bull. Out of curiousity would you dare have a person to person discussion along these lines with people who have been a victim of these crimes?

How have you shown this? You posted an article in which a politican says that 75% of arrests for murder, rape and robbery.
This a-is a made up figure with no evidence to back it up, which I have pointed out from the start is the problem with what the Italian government has been doing.

You have provided zero evidence that it is a made up figure. It is your opinion, nothing more.

And b- doesn't tell us how many convictions there have been.

Fine. Go find out, and prove us all wrong

and finally c- the article mentions Romanian people as a whole, not gyspies. Can you prove that all these Romanians mentioned were gypsies? I doubt it.

Given they dont seem to have much animosity towards non Gypsy Romanians I think you can draw your own conclusion there Sherlock.

Offensive to whom? You're here trying to damage my reputation and calling me names, and you are calling my posts offensive? I didn't realise you were so sensitive to other peoples plight Gopher.

Im not trying to damage your reputation. You are doing that all on your own. I didnt force you at gunpoint to come in here on a baseless PC rant.

You've yet to prove anything as usual.

Im waiting for the figures proving Gypsies are less likely to commit crime in Italy. You keep ignoring this request, why? Because you know you are talking nonsense?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

This is a very dangerous road the italians appear to be treading imho.

So what is the alternative?

I wish there was a system whereby the likes of Brian can elect to be taxed extra to support these types, and the rest of us can have our taxes spent on worthwhile sectors.

marcsignal

and if they really want to screw it up for themselves, they should get 'pavee point' to stick their oar in.
They made a damn good job of fcuking it up for the M50 crew.

brianthebard

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Im going to repeat this, as I dont think you got it the first time.

The Italians all assume there is a problem with gypsy anti social behaviour. Probably because every ATM scam in the newspaper involves Roma. Or they see them crating a nuisance on the streets. Or the dozens of murders commited as mentioned in the BBC article.

The italians "assume" these things because they are told so by right wing media and political sources.

independent.co.uk wrote:

(referring to baby snatching, a recent fradulent scandal in Italy)But the origin was an ancient fear, rooted not in fact but legend. Mr Bellu said: "There is nothing in police records to support the idea that Roma have stolen babies. It's just a legend. But one that still has people in its grip."

Marco Nieli, the president of Opera Nomadi, the most important organisation representing Italy's Roma, said: "The first Roma arrived in Italy in 1400 and have been here ever since, and are Italians in every respect. The real problem is one of crass ignorance: if someone says that Roma steal babies, the political parties reflect and amplify this nonsense. This way all the problems are swept under the carpet."

Now. It is your task to find figurees proving the above to be a load of nonsense. You cant. You also cant admit you are wrong, so you harp on with the same PC bull. Out of curiousity would you dare have a person to person discussion along these lines with people who have been a victim of these crimes?

I don't know exactly what figures you want me to provide, since they don't seem to be divided into Italian and Gypsies. Probably because an awful lot of Gypsies are Italian. What I can tell you is that Italy has a lower rape per capita figure than Ireland. (see here ) In addition assault figures per capita are also much lower than in Ireland here
If gypsies are such a cause for concern, why aren't the crime figures higher?

You have provided zero evidence that it is a made up figure. It is your opinion, nothing more.

And the person who provided the figure was only stating an opinion, so really they are equal. If mine is wrong, then so is the person who stated it.

Given they dont seem to have much animosity towards non Gypsy Romanians I think you can draw your own conclusion there Sherlock.

From the first article I posted (which I doubt you bothered to read);

Giovanni Maria Bellu, a La Repubblica journalist and an expert on Italy's minorities, said the problem was one of misunderstanding. "Most Italians make no distinction between Italian Roma and those who arrived from Yugoslavia during that country's break-up," he said. "And many Italians think that 'Rom' is an abbreviation of 'Romanian' – and since the arrival of Romania in the EU there has been a large influx of Romanians. People conflate these separate things. There have been crimes committed by Romanians – and people confuse these with the Rom, and the Rom end up being blamed for everything.

So there is definitely animosity towards Romanians, but the Roma people specifically are bearing the brunt of this.

Im waiting for the figures proving Gypsies are less likely to commit crime in Italy. You keep ignoring this request, why? Because you know you are talking nonsense?

Where did I say they were more or less likely to commit crimes? Stop putting words in my mouth.

Tha Gopher

brianthebard wrote: »

The italians "assume" these things because they are told so by right wing media and political sources.

Lovely.

I await a link comparing the facts to screaming Italian tabloid frontpages full of apparent bull.

I don't know exactly what figures you want me to provide, since they don't seem to be divided into Italian and Gypsies.

Really?

Didnt seem to matter when you asked me for figures!

Probably because an awful lot of Gypsies are Italian. What I can tell you is that Italy has a lower rape per capita figure than Ireland. (see here ) In addition assault figures per capita are also much lower than in Ireland here
If gypsies are such a cause for concern, why aren't the crime figures higher?

What in the name of all holy does that prove? That Italian residents are on a whole proportionately more law abiding than Irish residents? I could have guessed that one myself, seeing as hanging around cul de sacs drinking and vandalising cars isnt the forte of a great many Italian youth.

And the person who provided the figure was only stating an opinion, so really they are equal.

It is your opinion that he pulled this random figure out of his arse. Personally Im more likely to believe someone in contact with the Rome police than some Irishman ranting on teh interwebz.

But, again, if you can prove he lied, show it!

From the first article I posted (which I doubt you bothered to read);....

I glanced through it the other day. I dont recall it mentioning this story wasnt actually true. We have some random journalist saying historically it is exaggerated, but absoloutely no mention of whether the recent case is true. A random journalist seemingly being a more reliable source in your eyes than the Rome official. Hey, politicians lie, but journalists? Not a chance

"Italy's Roma paranoia spilled on to the world's front pages on 13 May, when a woman in a suburb of Naples called Ponticelli alleged that a Roma girl had tried to steal her baby. The community erupted in fury, and thugs belonging to the Camorra crime syndicates threw petrol bombs into the local gypsy squatter camp, driving out the inhabitants and burning the place to the ground. Suddenly there was no avoiding the fact: the Italian hatred for the Roma had taken a dramatic new turn.

But the origin was an ancient fear, rooted not in fact but legend. Mr Bellu said: "There is nothing in police records to support the idea that Roma have stolen babies. It's just a legend. But one that still has people in its grip."

Any link to corroborate the mother of the baby was pulling a Shannon Matthews? Or, again, is it just what you hope is true? (*I havent looked up this bit, and if you post something showing the whole thing was untrue Ill gladly retract).

So there is definitely animosity towards Romanians, but the Roma people specifically are bearing the brunt of this.

They may well be. But you still havent conceded that maybe it is because of the behaiour of a large section of the community.

Where did I say they were more or less likely to commit crimes? Stop putting words in my mouth.

It was certainly fooking implied. So what, after reading all this you think maybe they are responsible for a disproportionate amount after all? Tis all getting very confusing.....

Bubs101

Brian, you can quote the lack of figures all you want but you wanted to know the reason that Italians hate them so much, and no, before you try and ascribe it to some nonsense such as a legend about stealing babies, it's because they offer nothing to Italian society. They are quite literally a plague on the northern territories and Rome

murphaph

I'm sure this fingerprinting etc. is politically motivated but hey, if the italian people are happy with it, then so be it. The roma gypsies of europe are thieving parasites who do not want to contribute anything to society and are happy to claim benefits, beg and steal and yes, I have day to day experience of them-they are truly horrible people and I would be happy if Ireland deported every last one of them. We have enough homegrown thieves and parasites without importing roma. Usual disclaimer: one or two roma are probably brain surgeons paying top rate tax blah blah blah but in general, would you more PC types trust a roma ith the keys to your house, thought not......;)

Tha Gopher

murphaph wrote: »

would you more PC types trust a roma ith the keys to your house, thought not......;)

[PC Reply] I wouldnt trust ANYONE with the keys to my house. Your point is worthless blah blah blah [/pc]

Most PC people rightly wouldnt trust a Roma with the keys to their house.

What they wont admit is that they also wouldnt dream of renting a house to them. Or having them as neighbours. Or wouldnt be concerned if they heard their teenage sister was going out with one.

Blatant hypocracy, lies and half truths is all you get from these crowd generally. They usually get shown up in any attempt at debate mind, which is always quite funny

sock puppet

Tha Gopher wrote: »

I wish there was a system whereby the likes of Brian can elect to be taxed extra to support these types, and the rest of us can have our taxes spent on worthwhile sectors.

So what are the Italians supposed to do about the problem then if they don't try and help the Roma. Let them all commit crime? Close their eyes and hope the problem goes away?

Tha Gopher

sock puppet wrote: »

So what are the Italians supposed to do about the problem then if they don't try and help the Roma. Let them all commit crime? Close their eyes and hope the problem goes away?

They could always deport them, like they are currently doing.

The Italians dont owe them help. They owe the mezziogiorno help from their tax money. They do not owe any help to touring gypsies who in many cases have already been thrown out of Germany, France, UK, even Ireland. If they are so in need why arent you contributing? Why arent you helping out personally?

Surely you arent afraid of them are you?

sock puppet

Tha Gopher wrote: »

They could always deport them, like they are currently doing.

The Italians dont owe them help. They owe the mezziogiorno help from their tax money. They do not owe any help to touring gypsies who in many cases have already been thrown out of Germany, France, UK, even Ireland. If they are so in need why arent you contributing? Why arent you helping out personally?

Surely you arent afraid of them are you?

I'd be in favour of deporting them but the majority of them are Italian or EU citizens. And personally I've no desire to help them. We have never caused the Roma people any harm so it's not our problem. It's not the Irish who made them into second class citizens in their own countries. Maybe if the Italians hadn't tried to eradicate them there wouldn't be so much animosity between them. The Italians certainly do owe them help.

ejmaztec

sock puppet wrote: »

I'd be in favour of deporting them but the majority of them are Italian or EU citizens. And personally I've no desire to help them. We have never caused the Roma people any harm so it's not our problem. It's not the Irish who made them into second class citizens in their own countries. Maybe if the Italians hadn't tried to eradicate them there wouldn't be so much animosity between them. The Italians certainly do owe them help.

What kind of help would you suggest the Italians give them?

Tha Gopher

sock puppet wrote: »

I'd be in favour of deporting them but the majority of them are Italian or EU citizens.

Many of them are Italian. Virtually all are EU citizens. The EU does allow for the deporting of other EU citizens in some cases.

And personally I've no desire to help them. We have never caused the Roma people any harm so it's not our problem.

The Italians never did anything to Romanian gypsies.

It's not the Irish who made them into second class citizens in their own countries. Maybe if the Italians hadn't tried to eradicate them there wouldn't be so much animosity between them. The Italians certainly do owe them help.

ffs.

They do NOT owe help to FOREIGN gypsies. People who until the 1990s they had zero contact with. Jesus like :rolleyes: Thi is just taking the piss at this stage.

And where is Brian gone?

sock puppet

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Many of them are Italian. Virtually all are EU citizens. The EU does allow for the deporting of other EU citizens in some cases.

Well according to this article almost half of them are Italian citizens with about 40,000 being from the Balkans. These people are not citizens of these countries anymore after the breakup of Yugoslavia therefore there is nowhere to deport them to.

The Italians never did anything to Romanian gypsies.




ffs.

They shipped 1000 of them off to their deaths during World War 2 and were allied with Germany making them responsible for all of the war crimes committed. But i don't really want to argue about things that happened 60 years ago so I'll just leave it at that the Roma people have suffered discrimination throughout Europe since the middle ages and this only breeds hatred and mistrust. Italy has been nowhere near as bad as some other counties but they are hardly blameless.

They do NOT owe help to FOREIGN gypsies. People who until the 1990s they had zero contact with. Jesus like :rolleyes: Thi is just taking the piss at this stage.

Fine then but after the few thousand or so who can be deported are they'll still be left with the ones who are either Italian citizens or aren't citizens of any country.

In terms of helping the Roma I'd suggest either granting all of these Italian citizenship or else attempting to repatriate them but I can't see any Balkans countries accepting them in a hurry so it would probably be a long and drawn out process. Ending the segregated housing and the forced evictions would also help.

ejmaztec

sock puppet wrote: »

Well according to this article almost half of them are Italian citizens with about 40,000 being from the Balkans. These people are not citizens of these countries anymore after the breakup of Yugoslavia therefore there is nowhere to deport them to.


They shipped 1000 of them off to their deaths during World War 2 and were allied with Germany making them responsible for all of the war crimes committed. But i don't really want to argue about things that happened 60 years ago so I'll just leave it at that the Roma people have suffered discrimination throughout Europe since the middle ages and this only breeds hatred and mistrust. Italy has been nowhere near as bad as some other counties but they are hardly blameless.



Fine then but after the few thousand or so who can be deported are they'll still be left with the ones who are either Italian citizens or aren't citizens of any country.

In terms of helping the Roma I'd suggest either granting all of these Italian citizenship or else attempting to repatriate them but I can't see any Balkans countries accepting them in a hurry so it would probably be a long and drawn out process. Ending the segregated housing and the forced evictions would also help.

I don't think that anyone became stateless as a result of the break-up of Yugoslavia.

sock puppet

ejmaztec wrote: »

I don't think that anyone became stateless as a result of the break-up of Yugoslavia.

http://www.errc.org/cikk.php?cikk=1097

Before the breakup of Yugoslavia people there had citizenship of their own republic and also Yugoslav citizenship. A lot of Roma were only registered as citizens of Yugoslavia and not their own countries. After the dissolution of Yugoslavia they became stateless. None of the new countries have solved this problem. The citizenship laws are also racist. In Croatia for example people who lived in Croatia before the breakup of Yugoslavia but were not official citizens can obtain citizenship but it discriminates against people who are not ethnic Croats.

Now none of this can be blamed on Italy but whether they like it or not its their problem too now. But thinking about it I don't think granting them Italian citizenship is the answer. They should put pressure on the former Yugoslav states to change their citizenship laws and in the meantime treat the Roma humanely by stopping the forced evictions.

ejmaztec

sock puppet wrote: »

http://www.errc.org/cikk.php?cikk=1097

Before the breakup of Yugoslavia people there had citizenship of their own republic and also Yugoslav citizenship. A lot of Roma were only registered as citizens of Yugoslavia and not their own countries. After the dissolution of Yugoslavia they became stateless. None of the new countries have solved this problem. The citizenship laws are also racist. In Croatia for example people who lived in Croatia before the breakup of Yugoslavia but were not official citizens can obtain citizenship but it discriminates against people who are not ethnic Croats.

Now none of this can be blamed on Italy but whether they like it or not its their problem too now. But thinking about it I don't think granting them Italian citizenship is the answer. They should put pressure on the former Yugoslav states to change their citizenship laws and in the meantime treat the Roma humanely by stopping the forced evictions.

The way that I see it is that, because the Roma try to live their lives below the radar in many societies, they're not too hot in retaining the usual cross-border, or any other documentation. If they can't prove their identities and points of origin, then they've only got themselves to blame. We are all expected, even within the EU, to produce passports etc, so why should the Roma be exempt from the same rules and regulations as everyone else?

If a plane-load of Croatian Roma landed in Zagreb on a deportation flight from Rome, the Croatian's would have very little choice in the matter.

sock puppet

ejmaztec wrote: »

The way that I see it is that, because the Roma try to live their lives below the radar in many societies, they're not too hot in retaining the usual cross-border, or any other documentation. If they can't prove their identities and points of origin, then they've only got themselves to blame. We are all expected, even within the EU, to produce passports etc, so why should the Roma be exempt from the same rules and regulations as everyone else?

If a plane-load of Croatian Roma landed in Zagreb on a deportation flight from Rome, the Croatian's would have very little choice in the matter.

It has nothing to do with the Roma wanting to lie low and avoid detection. Its also happened to a lot of non-Roma people who migrated from one Yugoslav country to another before the war.

Since the former Yugoslav countries all want to be part of the EU and Slovenia are already members it should be easy for the EU to pressurise them into accepting these people back and making them citizens

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2008/0110/1199313761225.html

From the article
"Critics such as human rights watchdog Helsinki Monitor also point to Slovenia's poor record in dealing with non-Slovene citizens of the former Yugoslavia. In 1992, shortly after independence, thousands of non-Slovenes were simply erased from citizen books, when they failed to meet a six-month deadline of registration"

Many people in Slovenia didn't even know that Slovenian citizenship existed as it was pointless. Just search google for Slovenia and erased. The Roma and others who are stateless are entirely blameless for their situation.

Since the former Yugoslav countries all want to be part of the EU and slovenia already are it should be easy for the EU to pressurise them into accepting these people back and giving them back their citizenship. Its not a case of simply sending them en masse to a country where they will have no rights.

ejmaztec

sock puppet wrote: »

It has nothing to do with the Roma wanting to lie low and avoid detection. Its also happened to a lot of non-Roma people who migrated from one Yugoslav country to another before the war.

Since the former Yugoslav countries all want to be part of the EU and Slovenia are already members it should be easy for the EU to pressurise them into accepting these people back and making them citizens

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2008/0110/1199313761225.html

From the article
"Critics such as human rights watchdog Helsinki Monitor also point to Slovenia's poor record in dealing with non-Slovene citizens of the former Yugoslavia. In 1992, shortly after independence, thousands of non-Slovenes were simply erased from citizen books, when they failed to meet a six-month deadline of registration"

Many people in Slovenia didn't even know that Slovenian citizenship existed as it was pointless. Just search google for Slovenia and erased. The Roma and others who are stateless are entirely blameless for their situation.

Since the former Yugoslav countries all want to be part of the EU and slovenia already are it should be easy for the EU to pressurise them into accepting these people back and giving them back their citizenship. Its not a case of simply sending them en masse to a country where they will have no rights.

Thanks for the info links - I must have missed out on this crucial state of affairs.

However, the figure for "stateless" Slovenians seems to be in the region of 18000+. I can't find anywhere that tells me how many of these people are still residing in Slovenia, or what the ethnic divide is.

I think that the Italians are well within their rights to investigate the origins of the Roma population. Any of the resident Roma who cannot prove that they are Italian citizens must be segregated from the ones who can prove their Italian status. The next split would be to ascertain which of them are from other EU countries, and which of them are not. If the EU makes an exception in the case of the Roma, then they might as well let all of the North African "boat-people" in as well, not to mention anyone else on the EU's borders.

I get the impression that most people would turn a blind eye, were the Roma to disappear overnight and would imagine that only a small percentage would bother themselves to find out what became of them.

However, in these PC days, that's not going to happen (again). The Roma need a good spin-doctor to persuade people that they don't steal babies or your money and are simply culturally different. The job would take decades.

sovtek

ejmaztec wrote: »

I get the impression that most people would turn a blind eye, were the Roma to disappear overnight and would imagine that only a small percentage would bother themselves to find out what became of them.

Someone already tried that. I wonder what you would think if I were to trade Irish with Roma. Oh yeah someone already tried that as well.

ejmaztec

sovtek wrote: »

Someone already tried that. I wonder what you would think if I were to trade Irish with Roma. Oh yeah someone already tried that as well.

I think that you've got the wrong end of the stick in whatever assumptions you've arrived at.

marcsignal

ejmaztec wrote: »

We are all expected, even within the EU, to produce passports etc, so why should the Roma be exempt from the same rules and regulations as everyone else?

+1

Let's be realistic about this point, it's simply not possible to make 'special exceptions' to the point of infinity for this group and that group, or the legal system would end up bogged down in a quagmire of technicalities. There are plenty of rules and regulations that affect my life that I don't like, but that's just tough, I have to accept them anyway, be accountable for my actions, and I do so in the knowledge that my neighbour, generally speaking, has to also.