Brown Bess

chem

Lads I have seen an original brown bess at a good price. Only wondering if it would need a licence? It dates from the 1700`s. Its flintlock and it would never be fired, but id like to keep on the right side of the law, before I buy it:cool:

meathstevie

That's a smoothbore musket isn't it ? Shotgun or subsequent shotgun licence if it's in working order. If it actually is I'd pay the licence instead of wrecking the musket for which you'll need permission to have a deact anyway.

Grizzly 45

IMO it falls beyond the liscensing as it is older than 1820/1840 remit and is original.

Croppy Boy

Any firearm manufactured before 1845 does not require a licence. You apply to your Super for a permit for an antique gun, this he will give you at no cost.

If you are bringing it in from an EU country, you will need an import cert from the Dept of Justice.

chem

Cheers lads. One brown bess on its way soon:D Will ring DoJ tomorrow and see what spanner they will trow in the works:rolleyes:

Be alot earier if there was a collectors licence in this country!

Getting it for €800 and its in ex condition. Will let you know how it goes;)

Croppy Boy

For €800!!! Are you sure it's an original. Brown Bess's come in basically three different models, Londland, Shortland and India models, to get one for €800 would indeed be a snip, they usually start at about €2000 and up, depending on condition.

Grizzly 45

[

Be alot earier if there was a collectors licence in this country!

FACT!!!! Hello any DOJ/Gardai,Spooks or other types reading this!!!!:D

chem

Croppy Boy wrote: »

For €800!!! Are you sure it's an original. Brown Bess's come in basically three different models, Londland, Shortland and India models, to get one for €800 would indeed be a snip, they usually start at about €2000 and up, depending on condition.

Oh yes in deed it is a snip :D:D:D Have been after one for years, but the woman would never agree to spending the money as they were priced at €2000 up.

chem

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[


FACT!!!! Hello any DOJ/Gardai,Spooks or other types reading this!!!!:D

G45 whats your point? I know for a fact even the media troll here as well as the "man":D Im not saying im going to import it by a low flying aircraft, or high power speed boat:eek:

Im ringing DoJ in the morning and then my super. Not going to risk my licenced guns over this:cool:

Was just saying if we had a collectors licence her like in the UK it would be alot easier to collect historic firearms like the brown bess.

johngalway

chem wrote: »

G45 whats your point? I know for a fact even the media troll here as well as the "man":D Im not saying im going to import it by a low flying aircraft, or high power speed boat:eek:

Im ringing DoJ in the morning and then my super. Not going to risk my licenced guns over this:cool:

Was just saying if we had a collectors licence her like in the UK it would be alot easier to collect historic firearms like the brown bess.

Methinks you're taking Grizzly up wrong Chem, read his post in context and all will become clear

jwshooter

chem wrote: »

Oh yes in deed it is a snip :D:D:D Have been after one for years, but the woman would never agree to spending the money as they were priced at €2000 up.

lucky bxxxxxd can you post a pic of it do you know its history ,love to hear more of it regards john

kowloon

Croppy Boy wrote: »

For €800!!! Are you sure it's an original. Brown Bess's come in basically three different models, Londland, Shortland and India models, to get one for €800 would indeed be a snip, they usually start at about €2000 and up, depending on condition.

I've seen percussion fitted India patterns for half that. Almost bought one but ended up with a MkII Martini instead.

chem

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[


FACT!!!! Hello any DOJ/Gardai,Spooks or other types reading this!!!!:D

Sorry G45 picked you up all wrong there. I may stay away from the blue smarties:o

ivanthehunter

I thought that if i firearm was a hundred years old or more that it could be considered an antique as far as licencing is concerned?
I just that this figure is stuck in my head and I'm sure i read it either in the customs and excise imports exceptions list or in the statute books its self

Is it the case that such a firearm(100 year old) can be kept but it must be decommissioned unless its manufactured before 1820/40?

Sparks

The Firearms Acts from 1925 onwards have always exempted antique firearms in section 26:

26.—(1) Nothing in this Act relating to firearms shall apply to any antique firearm which is sold, bought, carried, or possessed as a curiosity or ornament.

But there's never been an actual definition of "antique" in this context. The finance act 1995 does say

Every antique being, subject to and in accordance with regulations, one or more goods which are shown to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners to be more than 100 years old

I'm pretty sure that's where Ivan heard the 100 years figure, or something related to that anyway. But it's not clear if that can be applied to firearms. Of course, it's not clear that it cannot, but there's dissenting opinion. From a parlimentary question (Feb 22, 2000):

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. O'Donoghue):
...
The restrictions imposed by the firearms Acts do not apply to any antique firearm which is sold, bought, carried or possessed as a curiosity or ornament. Generally, firearms manufactured before the mid 19th century which do not utilise modern type ammunition would be classed as antique firearms.

And the Gardai's opinion on this is similar:

If the person wishes to import antique firearms the importation licence is issued subject to the condition that the weapons are submitted to the Ballistics Unit of the Garda Síochána (Police) for examination. Antique weapons are those manufactured pre 1845 which have an ignition system that does not utilise cased ammunition.

chem

So who is right sparks???

If its not in the law books can the gardi inforce it

If anyone can tell me how to post pics here ill put some up. Or if someone who can post pics here emails me there address I can send pics to them.

Sparks

Who's right? That's up to a court. As far as the Gardai enforcing it goes, I'd imagine they'd go with the guidelines they've issued themselves (the 1845 rule above).
As to whether that would stand up in court, well, that's something that's up to the courts. I know I wouldn't want to be the one morgaging my house to find out the answer to the question though.

ivanthehunter

Chem have

I'm nearly sure i read it in the Customs and excise guide lines. I was viewing a section on the restrictions imposed on the importation of certain firearms and weopens, i think?

chem

here she is. Cheers for telling me how to put the pic up ivan.;)

patbundy

shes beautifull chem

IRLConor

That looks lovely. I don't know why, but I want one!

Croppy Boy

chem, are you sure it's original? It looks remarkably fresh. The lock seems to have no markings on it, usually they have the GR symbol and Tower engraved on them. Are there any stamp marks on the barrel or on the stock? It looks like a third model India pattern, I see someone has added a back sight.

Try putting a pin into the touch hole to see if it extends into the barrel, drop the ramrod down the barrel and note the position on the rod against the muzzle, now take the rod out and see if it extends to the breech. The breech should be a shade below the touch hole.

The point being, if it is a non firing replica, you don't need an import cert but if it is a functioning replica, you would have to treat it as a modern shotgun.

SpitfireIV

Croppy has a point alright, she looks pretty fresh! But then I've seen Bess's which have been well cared for and look as good today as they did back then. She's an India Pattern alright, I'd say she's original, just has that look about it. The lock is blank, but appears well made. Perhaps this was a private purchase for an officer or someone whom could afford it, hence the lacking of the GR mark and 'Tower'. Besides, if it were made in India it would not be marked with the GR or Tower, but with the EIC (East India Company) 'Heart' and the year or a lion on the flat between the hammer and flash pan. Any chance of some close up pics of the lock? Or can you see any markings there? What about the bayonet, has that got any markings?

Just as an example of how easy it'd be to create a fake, see the images below. The first pic shows my 'Bess', which was obtained from a seller in the UK. It was a prop used in 'Sharpes Challenge', pretty well made piece, but lacking somewhat. It was made by an Indian company, and is dated December 1979. It is of course none firing and has a metal rod welded into the barrel to inforce this :pac:.



A little bit of work, and she looked like the image below. Since that pic was taken I have aged the lock and barrell etc to give it more of a patina.

kowloon

Very interesting, I was under the impression that the 1845, smoothbore and not cased ammo was set in stone.
We desperately need proper categories for antiques, my martini will be restricted come renewal time.

chem

got some pics of the markings lads. Abit worse for ware today. Charity do last night and in need of some water and asprin:o Cheers for the advise lads hope these pics shed more light on things;)

Will be able to say more after an hours kip;)

Last pic is a better close up of the markings on the lock. I can`t make them out

SpitfireIV

Looks like a date, 1803? 1808? 1802? Well, its the area of the lock where you'd expect to find the year on an India Pattern Bess

kowloon

Throw up some pics of the aging there croppy, looks like you've done a very good job on the wood.

SpitfireIV

Cheers Kowloon

There's a few pics below of my Bess as she is today. The 'Replica' I got was a typical India pattern, no handrail, no beavertail behind the barrell tang and a later parrern brass end cap on the stock.

I wanted to make it look like an early 3rd model, transitional Bess, made in the UK in the mid/late 1790's. hence I added the handrail, 'beavertail' and modified the brass endcap. I'm not sure what type of wood was used in these replica's, some form of Asian hardwood, wasnt the easiest to work with.

The bayonet pictured and it wood handle is supposedly from Ballinahinch (may have been used in the fighting up there) its c.1780 or there abouts.

Enjoy.....

kowloon

Excellent job, what did you use to age it?
Was thinking of getting a project gun, IMA sell unrestored sniders and martinis for pocket money, don't think I have the eye for restoration though.

chem

kowloon wrote: »

IMA sell unrestored sniders and martinis for pocket money, don't think I have the eye for restoration though.

An old friend of mine has a large collection of flints, percussions, swords and daggers. He can fix pieces and remake springs if they are snapped. Just as a side note. His collection was looked at by his local FO and he was very impressed:D

SpitfireIV

kowloon, for the wood I aged it by literally beating it with everything and anything, good way to get out any anger :pac:. Needed to add 'handling' dent, dings, knocks etc as you'd expect to find on such a piece. I added a few woodworm holes in and around the beavertail . I used to stains on it. A mahogany stain for the whole lot, then the detail areas around the handrail, beavertail, lock etc I added a darker stain, just to make these areas stand out a little more. Then I added a few coats of satin varnish.

The metal parts, a number of things really. I tried adding bleach, to rust them, heated them and dipped them in oil and stain to try and give them a darker tone. Still not terribly happy with the finish of the metal, some of the parts currently are rusting and I'll leave them like that for a while before cleaning them. I wish there was a 'patina in a bottle' that you could get

The guns on IMA certainly look interesting! There's a video too on one of the pages showing a before and after cleaned up 3 band Enfield! Very tempting indeed!

Croppy Boy

Croppy, you could try rubbing a solution of baking soda into the metal parts. This is what they do to barrels that have been browned to stop the rusting in its tracks when the desired colour has been reached.

kowloon

CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »

The guns on IMA certainly look interesting! There's a video too on one of the pages showing a before and after cleaned up 3 band Enfield! Very tempting indeed!

I know, I've been eyeing the yokes for a while now, still have some applications in with the gardai though.
When everything goes through I'll probably go for one, will see if anyone else wants one as the shipping would be nearly half the cost of the gun. Cheap enfields to be had if you imported a few at once. Will always be wall hangars though.

kowloon

Croppy Boy wrote: »

Croppy, you could try rubbing a solution of baking soda into the metal parts. This is what they do to barrels that have been browned to stop the rusting in its tracks when the desired colour has been reached.

If I remember correcly, vinegar and bleach do an excellent job getting the rust going in the first place. You need to do it outdoors though as there's a lot of chlorine gas from the reaction.

It's getting confusing having 2 croppy boys, I think I may have pm'd the wrong one at some point.

Croppy Boy

kowloon wrote: »

It's getting confusing having 2 croppy boys

It's a good job you weren't around two hundred years ago, there were thousands of us.:D