July 1st Regulation Changes

dreamingoak

what exactly is the current situation on this? I'm on my third provisional, I've been driving for 3 years, and have my test in a month.
All I can find seems to be horror stories and misinformation.
What is the actual legal and practical position now??

biko

Did you have a look in the sticky?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055176756

"Persons on their 1st, 3rd and subsequent Provisional Licence/Learner Permit are required to be accompanied at all times"

Morgans

As you are on a third provisional there should be no change to you regarding the new laws. Sticky says it better.

dreamingoak

I've been on a second provisional and driving for 3 years on my own, just updated to a third provisional, actually the test is in 2 weeks. I'm a 30 something woman, and have a completely clean ( provisional ) licence. surely a guard would be reasonable? any similar experience?

dreamingoak

any guards on here? What would you say to someone like me if you stopped me?

xeroshero

Ive read the sticky, and re read it and Ive read a million threads on this topic... (have a look OP)

But one thing that I haven't found yet, maybe its obvious but say I get stopped and they slap me with the €1000 fine or whatever fine, can I then drive away? unaccompanied!? I'll be moving away from home soon and will not have anyone to "bail" me out/accompany me, what happens immediately after Im stopped????

biko

dreamingoak wrote: »

surely a guard would be reasonable?

Don't count on it.
Fines are pretty heavy btw.

Hal1

From everything I have read in the national papers and web and comments on this board and others, they are having a zero tolerence crackdown on provo drivers. Maybe there is a bit of scare mongering involved here on if they actually do follow through with this law. I wouldn't be suprised if they make an example of a few motorists on their provo licences driving unaccompanied.

donhughberto

Like many i am awaiting a test having failed last one but only just. I think it would be good to know what will happen. It can't be one rule for one and another gets off with a warning.

They should document process so everybody knows where they stand. I live in a small town and i know 50% of people are going to drive on and find out when stopped.

This is crazy if its 1,000 euros. Most people i know don't even use L plates on provisionals and never did so hence 2,000 euros if maximum fine applied.

I would be interested in a statement form the guarda on how law will be passed. It should be fair for all. I would like to see what other people think but it is a shambles for people driving. The full license drivers are going to meet delays at checkpoints. Garda are going to have to pull over every car on the road to check.

raido9

dreamingoak wrote: »

I've been on a second provisional and driving for 3 years on my own, just updated to a third provisional, actually the test is in 2 weeks. I'm a 30 something woman, and have a completely clean ( provisional ) licence. surely a guard would be reasonable? any similar experience?

If you believe what they're saying, you will be hit with a nasty fine. Your age, driving history, and time driving should not come into it.

The fact that you are one your third provisional and still haven't passed your test indicates your not ready to drive around unaccompanied.

Three years to learn to drive and pass the test! You have no excuse if you get caught.

dreamingoak

There was confusion last night about the likely impact of the new regulations on drivers with provisional licences, with the Minister for Transport, Noel Dempsey, appearing to be at odds with the Garda over the implementation of the system. Stephen Collins , Conor Lally and David Labanyi report.

Responding to intense public anger at the planned clampdown, Mr Dempsey said the Garda authorities would take a "proportionate" and "common sense" approach to implementing the regulations for two or three months.

A statement yesterday afternoon from Garda headquarters appeared to contradict Mr Dempsey's assertion, saying gardaí would "fully enforce the laws in relation to this area". The statement added that gardaí would "where appropriate issue a caution/warning, notice or prosecution".

However, reliable senior Garda sources said later yesterday that in reality, gardaí would operate a three-month grace period. "If a driver is stopped and driving alone is the only offence, it will mean a caution," said one source.

In a statement last night, Mr Dempsey attempted to defuse the controversy, but the Opposition parties have accused him of "making an ass of the law". The Minister, in his statement, said that - conscious of the widespread concern among holders of provisional licences that from Tuesday next driving while unaccompanied would lead to prosecution - he had discussed the issue with the Road Safety Authority (RSA) and the Garda authorities.

"The Minister understands that the gardaí will approach each case using discretion and common sense as opposed to automatic prosecution. The Minister believes that sensible Garda enforcement of that type will mean that for an initial period of a few months, Garda efforts in the main will be aimed at cautioning and advising unaccompanied drivers of the new legal requirements."

The statement also said the Insurance Federation had confirmed that the change in law affecting second provisional licence holders did not change their insurance status.

The chairman of the Road Safety Authority Gay Byrne told The Irish Times.

Stark

donhughberto wrote: »

This is crazy if its 1,000 euros. Most people i know don't even use L plates on provisionals and never did so hence 2,000 euros if maximum fine applied.

A pair of L-plates costs a few euro. Much cheaper than paying €1,000.

bryanmurr

No offence to any provisional drivers here but has there not been enough of a warning already that this is coming? At the end of this 3 months people will still want more time

dreamingoak

actually Raido, I,ve had a provisional for nearly 12 years, but have been in and out of the country over that time. I've been driving perfectly competetly for the last three years, and have not failed a test in this country. I was just following the old way of waiting till I felt completely ready before applying for the test. This way of doing it has caught out a lot of women in the same position as me. The blame lies with the system having been the way it has for so long. Please dont take your vitriol out on me, as you dont know what kind of driver I am.

Stark

dreamingoak wrote:

The blame lies with the system having been the way it has for so long.

Of course. Always with other people. :rolleyes:

dreamingoak

TODAYS IRISH TIMES

No plan to crack down on L-drivers

DAVID LABANYI

GARDAÍ HAVE no plans to specifically target unaccompanied learner drivers from next Tuesday.

From midnight on July 1st, the loophole allowing second learner permit holders to drive unaccompanied will close.

From that date, all learner drivers must be accompanied by a driver holding a full-licence for at least two years.

Head of the Garda Traffic Corps assistant commissioner, Eddie Rock, said last night the law on unaccompanied driving “will be enforced in an appropriate and proportional manner”.

No specific checkpoints to target unaccompanied learner motorists were planned, he said. Last October, confusion surrounded the enforcement of what has been to date a lightly policed law. The proposal to close the loophole caused a furore when the Minister of Transport, Noel Dempsey, and the Road Safety Authority (RSA) sought to introduce it within days.

A public outcry saw the deadline extended until July 1st this year to allow 122,000 holders of a second provisional licence apply for a test.

As of the end of May, over 117,000 drivers held a second learner permit, according to the RSA.

The vast majority of these licences were for cars.

Drivers on second learner permits will be legally required to change their travel habits from next week when the loophole closes.

Noel Brett, head of the RSA, said 48,000 learner drivers a month are being tested.

“Of the 122,000 second provisional licence holders as of last October, over 100,000 will have been tested by the end of June,” he said.

He also said that second learner permit holders who have applied for a test have been offered a test date.

The pass rate is 59 per cent and the average waiting time for a test is eight weeks.

“Right now there is no compulsion to pass the test, but we will review it at the end of the year and will talk to the minister about any additional measures required" he said

dreamingoak

Stark wrote: »

Of course. Always with other people. :rolleyes:

O please! Of course I take responsibility for my own decisions! I have applied for the test, It's in two weeks. I was just pointing out that the way the system has been for so long has resulted in a lot of people, especially mums like myself, finding themselves in the same position.
And also that the situation as it stands is not very clear, with so much chopping and changing.

Stark

The situation is as it always has been. If you are driving alone on a 3rd provsional, you are driving illegally, regardless of whether the Gardaí are on the look out for you or not. "Couldn't be arsed" isn't going to earn you sympathy.

dreamingoak

no, but, "i've just upgraded to a 3rd and the test is in a couple of weeks" might. According to the Times, Head of the Garda Traffic Corps assistant commissioner, Eddie Rock, said last night the law on unaccompanied driving “will be enforced in an appropriate and proportional manner”.

I think The Gardai will be much harder on young male drivers who statistically kill themselves on provisionals than on the other camp of 30 -40 something mothers, on test lists.

Wile E. Coyote

"i've just upgraded to a 3rd and the test is in a couple of weeks"

Why should this get you any sympathy? We've all known since last October that this was going to happen.

dreamingoak

because I applied for the test in october, and It shows that i am doing something about it. The crackdown, I am sure is aimed at people who are trying to avoid the test altogether, and/ or who are reckless drivers

Wile E. Coyote

The clamp down (if there is one) will and should be aimed at everyone on a provisional licence who is driving unaccompanied. And i find it very hard to believe that you applied for a test in October and 8 months later you've heard nothing. The average wait at the minute is about 2 months and anyone on a second provisional (which you would have been on) was given preference on test dates.

Wile E. Coyote

I am sure is aimed at people who are trying to avoid the test altogether

People who are trying to avoid the test???? You've been on a provisional for 12 years!!!!!

ztoical

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

People who are trying to avoid the test???? You've been on a provisional for 12 years!!!!!

+1 your exactly who this is aimed at - people who have been driving on provisionals for years having never taken a single test. And don't point out that you've got your test coming up, its pretty clear the only reason you applied at all was due to the new laws coming in.

dreamingoak

For goodness sake this disgussion on whether I personally am 'looking for sympathy' or ' cant be arsed' is totally off topic. The Thread isnt called, 'hey come kick a provisional liscence holder'.

what I am asking is, what kind of response from the gardai have people in my position had when they were stopped? That is :30 something woman on a 3rd provisional, clean liscence and test booked and immanent.

dreamingoak

I diddnt say ive heard nothing. Its on the 9th of July. and Ive been out of the country most of that time. Ive been driving here for 3 years.

Wile E. Coyote

No one knows what the response is going to be like until the new law comes into force. I would imagine that it will be heavily enforced for the first few weeks, given loads of media coverage with hard luck stories from people who have been caught and then it will die out.

I would definatly look for someone to drive around with you for a while anyway.

donhughberto

Stark wrote: »

A pair of L-plates costs a few euro. Much cheaper than paying €1,000.

Aye but some people are too cool to have ugly L plates on cars. I agree but i know a few very close to me who never used them. Question is "how do Gardai spot these types on Law Breakers".

Also how will insurance companys deal with people who drive away. Surely policys are null and void if breaking the law?? Makes people think.

I am all for safer roads but i find people who cause accidents have no trouble passing tests, ie "boy racers" term.

dreamingoak

hi don, I read in the times that the insurance federation said theres no effect on peoples insurance.

raido9

dreamingoak wrote: »

actually Raido, I,ve had a provisional for nearly 12 years, but have been in and out of the country over that time. I've been driving perfectly competetly for the last three years, and have not failed a test in this country. I was just following the old way of waiting till I felt completely ready before applying for the test. This way of doing it has caught out a lot of women in the same position as me. The blame lies with the system having been the way it has for so long. Please dont take your vitriol out on me, as you dont know what kind of driver I am.

12 years and you haven't taken the test. A fine is too good for people like you, you should be put off the road.

Your making excuses for yourself now I'm afraid. Just take some responsibility and do the test. You were given 6 months warning this was coming in.

donhughberto

dreamingoak wrote: »

hi don, I read in the times that the insurance federation said theres no effect on peoples insurance.

That would be one way to make people stop but insurance companys are not stupid I suppose. Interesting to see what happens and what people are going to do about it. I booked two tests but i know its 8 weeks at least. I am still mad at myself for failing first one.

I wish everybody luck and hope to see you all on the roads with full licenses in the future. It does not mean it will be a safer road all the same.

raido9

dreamingoak wrote: »

because I applied for the test in october, and It shows that i am doing something about it. The crackdown, I am sure is aimed at people who are trying to avoid the test altogether, and/ or who are reckless drivers

Or people who are on their third provisional licence without bothering to try the test. :rolleyes:

dreamingoak

for the love of god read back a bit first! i have the test in two weeks! I applied straight away in october!

donhughberto

raido9 wrote: »

12 years and you haven't taken the test. A fine is too good for people like you, you should be put off the road.

Your making excuses for yourself now I'm afraid. Just take some responsibility and do the test. You were given 6 months warning this was coming in.

I have been driving about 3 months (provisional for about 7), took alot of lessons and failed test by 1 grade 2 so i think the test is not so bad. Its just about keeping the cool and getting over the nerves.

12 years means plenty of terrible habits.

Wishbone Ash

I don't want to kick you when you're down but there are a few points I would like to make.

dreamingoak wrote: »

I was just following the old way of waiting till I felt completely ready before applying for the test

That just reads like "I couldn't be bothered applying for the test as I can just rely on the Provisional Licence system and sure no one checks whether I'm accompanied or not".

Prior to the driving tests being outsourced to SGS, the average waiting times for tests were very long. Why on earth would someone wait until they are "ready" before applying? The sensible thing to do would have been to apply for the test as soon as you obtained the 1st provisional Licence.

dreamingoak wrote: »

I have applied for the test, It's in two weeks

You applied in October coincidently when the Minister announced that the accompanied regulations would be enforced.

dreamingoak wrote: »

what kind of response from the gardai have people in my position had when they were stopped? That is :30 something woman on a 3rd provisional, clean liscence and test booked and immanent.

Your age, sex and nature of your Provisional Licence shouldn't have any bearing of what the Garda would do (but it may all the same).

You say that you are a mother. I presume that you may require your car for transporting a child/children. You need to bear in mind that you Provisional Licence/Learner Permit was granted to you to allow you to access public roads while learning to drive. It was not granted to you as a licence to utilise public roads for work, social and family reasons.

And just to pre-empt the posters who will respond saying that the waiting times were so long that they had no choice:

When the Minister made his announcement last october there were 430,000 persons on Provisional Licences yet there were only 129,000 persons on the test waiting list. Now what were the other 300,000 persons doing?

donhughberto

dreamingoak wrote: »

for the love of god read back a bit first! i have the test in two weeks! I applied straight away in october!

I applied in Febuary and had one already, i guess test centres have different waiting lists. My brother has had two since October and hes on a first provisional, 2nd are supposed to get choice of dates etc. So i am guessing your application got lost somewhere

donhughberto

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

When the Minister made his announcement last october there were 430,000 persons on Provisional Licences yet there were only 129,000 persons on the test waiting list. Now what were the other 300,000 persons doing?

Good question, 300,000 more added to the list next month is my guess and kill the 8 week waiting list and back to 6 months again

pocketvenus

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

The clamp down (if there is one) will and should be aimed at everyone on a provisional licence who is driving unaccompanied. And i find it very hard to believe that you applied for a test in October and 8 months later you've heard nothing. The average wait at the minute is about 2 months and anyone on a second provisional (which you would have been on) was given preference on test dates.

You might like to know I also applied in October 07 and have been told I will getting my test in August!!! I had to ring the RSA to see what hold up was and was told it be August before I was due to take my test so there you go. I am telling the truth about when I applied and I have not been given preference.

techdiver

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

The average wait at the minute is about 2 months

Negative - Not even close, they may be publishing those fairytale statistics, but it's not the reality of what is happening.

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

and anyone on a second provisional (which you would have been on) was given preference on test dates.

Negative - I have seen no evidence of such measures, I'm on my second provisional and still waiting for a test date even though I applied in April.

Now roll the "It's your own fault bla bla bla", comments.

pocketvenus

techdiver wrote: »

Negative - Not even close, they may be publishing those fairytale statistics, but it's not the reality of what is happening.



Negative - I have seen no evidence of such, measures I'm on my second provisional and still waiting for a test date even though I applied in April.

Now roll the "It's your own fault bla bla bla", comments.

Your are right there, ok you can say that they are bringing the waiting times down but there are not near the "on demand" test they are advertising. I mean everyday I am hearing about people waiting at least 4 months which is bad never mind say I am waiting 8 months and just to clarify I applied start of October as soon as I got my 2nd provisional licence. By that time I had got all my lessons and had plenty of experinence so that when I got my test I'd have the skills and confidence to pass.

dreamingoak

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You applied in October coincidently when the Minister announced that the accompanied regulations would be enforced.

Like thousands of others, I applied on purpose in october in response to the changes in policy.

I did actually get a test a little earlier, on the 11th of this month but had to defer it as it inconcievably fell on the same day as one of my final exams. The new date is the 9th of July.

I am not making any excuses. I am in the same position as thousands of others in the country, and now looking to sort the problem out.

techdiver

dreamingoak wrote: »

Like thousands of others, I applied on purpose in october in response to the changes in policy.

I did actually get a test a little earlier, on the 11th of this month but had to defer it as it inconcievably fell on the same day as one of my final exams. The new date is the 9th of July.

I am not making any excuses. I am in the same position as thousands of others in the country, and now looking to sort the problem out.

Once again hurray for the RSA and the lies about reducing waiting times for everyone! Lies I tell ye! Lies!

Of course this is Ireland, we will of course settle for it because of our anything will do attitude to public service. Be damned to anyone who questions where our tax money + the €38 we paid for the test in advance has gone to.

dreamingoak

thank you techdiver and pocket venus (lovely name) for weighing in on the side of the provisional driver on a waiting list! It seems theyd like to round us all up, shoot first and ask questions later.

Wishbone Ash

techdiver wrote: »

Negative - Not even close, they may be publishing those fairytale statistics, but it's not the reality of what is happening

Do you compile the statistics for all test centres?

Negative wrote:

- I have seen no evidence of such measures, I'm on my second provisional and still waiting for a test date even though I applied in April

Because you have seen no evidence you can dismiss the statistics given by a statutory organisation! :rolleyes:

Did you state in you application form that you are willing to be tested at very short notice. Have you contacted the RSA and informed them that you are on a 2nd Provisional Licence and are willing to take any available cancellation slot?

pocketvenus wrote: »

I mean everyday I am hearing about people waiting at least 4 months which is bad never mind say I am waiting 8 months

The times provided by the RSA are average waiting times.

Regularly, we have posters on this forum who have been offered tests in weeks or even days. One was offered a test the day after applying and AFAIK the average time has dropped again.

pocketvenus wrote:

I applied start of October as soon as I got my 2nd provisional licence. By that time I had got all my lessons and had plenty of experinence so that when I got my test I'd have the skills and confidence to pass.

Again very coincidental. Why didn't you apply earlier and aquire the skills in the meantime? If you weren't ready, you could have deferred it.

dreamingoak wrote: »

Like thousands of others, I applied on purpose in october in response to the changes in policy

When you realised that you would have to get your licence in order. Are you implying that, had the Minister not made the announcement, you would have continued to drive around on a Provisional Licence?

It an insult to those of us who didn't drive unaccompanied (when legally required) and applied for tests as soon as possible.

techdiver

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Do you compile the statistics for all test centres?

I don't think anyone is, those figures are fiction. No-one I know has received a test next to near any of those "average" times.

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Because you have seen no evidence you can dismiss the statistics given by a statutory organisation! :rolleyes:

Yes. It is after all an Irish Organisation that has pledged to meet a certain number by a certain time or look like fools. Forgive me if I'm skeptical about their figures especially when there is no independent audit of them.

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Did you state in you application form that you are willing to be tested at very short notice. Have you contacted the RSA and informed them that you are on a 2nd Provisional Licence and are willing to take any available cancellation slot?

No such option on the online application, plus try to call the RSA driving test number (1890 40 60 40), and see if you can even get through. I have tried many times with no luck and so have others. When I did get through the automated menu system just cuts me off when selecting the options I need.

dreamingoak

yes thats exactly what i'm saying. well actually I would have done it around now, having finished up my course first. that was the plan. what lunatic would not apply for the test after the october announcements?

This is what thousands of people in the country are doing: on hearing of the october policy changes, they applied for the test. Why do you keep saying ' oh coincidentally you applied in october.."?

pocketvenus

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Do you compile the statistics for all test centres?


Because you have seen no evidence you can dismiss the statistics given by a statutory organisation! :rolleyes:

Did you state in you application form that you are willing to be tested at very short notice. Have you contacted the RSA and informed them that you are on a 2nd Provisional Licence and are willing to take any available cancellation slot?

The times provided by the RSA are average waiting times.

Regularly, we have posters on this forum who have been offered tests in weeks or even days. One was offered a test the day after applying and AFAIK the average time has dropped again.

Again very coincidental. Why didn't you apply earlier and aquire the skills in the meantime? If you weren't ready, you could have deferred it.

When you realised that you would have to get your licence in order. Are you implying that, had the Minister not made the announcement, you would have continued to drive around on a Provisional Licence?

It an insult to those of us who didn't drive unaccompanied (when legally required) and applied for tests as soon as possible.

It is not coincidental at all actually, these measures where introduced end of October 2007 my application form was posted into the RSA on 2nd so I was well ahead of the the new measures being introduced.

Yes I do know that the times are average but I think 8 months or even 4 is unacceptable. As I said I know these will improve but it should never have gotten to the stage of having year long waiting lists in the first place then we would not be in this situation. The Government should have anticipated this they can publish reports every years about the number of cars increasing on the road so surely somebody would have had the sense to know that the demand for tests would have increased thus tackling the problem years ago.

To tackle your question about why I did not apply straight away I wanted to be in the best possible position so that I would not have to defer and hopefully just have to take the test once and not have to go back to the bottom on the waiting list again if I did happen to fail. Which also adds to increased waiting times. If you have a look at the RSA website now they have recently added a note to say that you should build up your driving experience and confidence before applying for your test. This exactly what I did.

ztoical

dreamingoak wrote: »

Why do you keep saying ' oh coincidentally you applied in october.."?

because you said yourself you've had a provisional for 12 years and yet only applied for the test in october which implies that if the new laws weren't coming in you most likely still wouldn't have put in for the test.

Wishbone Ash

techdiver wrote: »

No-one I know has received a test next to near any of those "average" times.

So you know everyone on the waiting list?

techdiver wrote:

It is after all an Irish Organisation that has pledged to meet a certain number by a certain time

They are way ahead of their targets.

techdiver wrote:

No such option on the online application, plus try to call the RSA driving test number (1890 40 60 40), and see if you can even get through. I have tried many times with no luck and so have others. When I did get through the automated menu system just cuts me off when selecting the options I need.

Does the online application not have a section with "Any Additional Information" or a section where you inform them when you are not available.

(Traditional paper application is much better anyway IMO).

You could of course write to them. We still have a postal service and In my experience, traditional letters receive much more attention that emails.

dreamingoak wrote: »

I would have done it around now, having finished up my course first

Driving legally is much more important than any 'course'.

dreamingoak wrote:

This is what thousands of people in the country are doing: on hearing of the october policy changes, they applied for the test. Why do you keep saying ' oh coincidentally you applied in october.."?

Because many of those people are giving the two fingers to those of use who complied with the law long before spoonfeeding was introduced. They complain about waiting lists (I know you didn't complain about them) yet were not on one in the first place! they then use long waiting lists as an excuse for not applying! :rolleyes:

There is no constitutional right to drive in this country. It is a privilage which should be earned not abused.

raido9

dreamingoak wrote: »

thank you techdiver and pocket venus (lovely name) for weighing in on the side of the provisional driver on a waiting list! It seems theyd like to round us all up, shoot first and ask questions later.

What does that even mean?

Wishbone Ash

pocketvenus wrote: »

It is not coincidental at all actually, these measures where introduced end of October 2007 my application form was posted into the RSA on 2nd so I was well ahead of the the new measures being introduced

Fair enough, point taken.

o tackle your question about why I did not apply straight away I wanted to be in the best possible position so that I would not have to defer and hopefully just have to take the test once and not have to go back to the bottom on the waiting list again if I did happen to fail.

But you could have got to the top of the waiting list twice during you 1st Provisional!

pocketvenus wrote:

If you have a look at the RSA website now they have recently added a note to say that you should build up your driving experience and confidence before applying for your test

That is because some people on Provisional Licences (where there is no 6 month restriction) were being offered tests within weeks of applying and had not prepared for them.