Acupuncture

I rarely hear anyone question acupuncture these days,its not regulated in this country and seems to be growing in popularity..

Most people I meet,assume theres some anatomical\histological basis behind it's silly methods..where as aromatherapy,reflexology and homeopathy are quite openly ridiculed...and rightly so

So here's how it works

"Acupuncture is a technique of inserting tiny needles into parts of the body in order to improve the flow of Qi through the meridian system of the body"

So,with almost no evidence of it's effectiveness,other than the typical placebo response results..

Why are these fantastic B.S Artists so rarely questioned??

johnsix

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are these fantastic B.S Artists so rarely questioned??

Two phrases:
"My sister had it done and it cleared her back pain right up."
"What do scientists know?, they're so closed minded"

Who needs evidence when you have good marketing and ignorance to pray upon?

lilRedSmurf

Actually there is scientific evidence to back it up.

There are quite a few studies focusing on the (I know I'm probably not spelling this right but here goes) DeiQi part of acupuncture. Its a point at which deep relaxation and pain relief is supposedly achieved.
There are measurable and repeatable changes in a number of deep brain regions using both functional MRI's and PET scans when this state is reached.

Its been around for thousands of years and is used by many professional sports bodies and I know some professional gymnasts and sports people who use it with great effect.

There are however, as with all professions, a small number of practitioners who have neither the proper training or qualifications to be working professionallly that bring some ill repute. But in my experience with the drugs regulations in sport getting even more stringent, people who are looking for alternatives that work often find a great deal of relief and benefit through acupuncture.

johnsix

lilRedSmurf wrote: »

Actually there is scientific evidence to back it up.

There are quite a few studies focusing on the (I know I'm probably not spelling this right but here goes) DeiQi part of acupuncture. Its a point at which deep relaxation and pain relief is supposedly achieved.
There are measurable and repeatable changes in a number of deep brain regions using both functional MRI's and PET scans when this state is reached.

What studies are these? Can you link to them?
Did you know there is a study showing that fake acupuncture works as well as "real" acupuncture
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/AlternativeMedicine/tb/2604
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050504101520.htm
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/17/1892?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=acupuncture&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-09/eecc-adn092607.php

lilRedSmurf wrote: »

Its been around for thousands of years and is used by many professional sports bodies and I know some professional gymnasts and sports people who use it with great effect.

One sentence two fallacies.
Just because it's been around for a thousand years it doesn't mean it works. leeches have been around for ages as has drilling a hole into your skull to release the demons.
Also subjective evidence isn't evidence. My mother saw a Higgs boson once.

lilRedSmurf wrote: »

There are however, as with all professions, a small number of practitioners who have neither the proper training or qualifications to be working professionallly that bring some ill repute. But in my experience with the drugs regulations in sport getting even more stringent, people who are looking for alternatives that work often find a great deal of relief and benefit through acupuncture.

And sugar pills give people relief as well. As does actual medicine.

lilRedSmurf

johnsix wrote: »

One sentence two fallacies.
Just because it's been around for a thousand years it doesn't mean it works. leeches have been around for ages as has drilling a hole into your skull to release the demons.
Also subjective evidence isn't evidence. My mother saw a Higgs boson once.

Leeches are used rather commonly in "actual medicine" to alleviate blood clotting and slow healing in skin grafts and frost bite treatments. Drilling a hole in the skull is used in "actual medicine" to alleviate the symptoms caused by encephelitis and similar conditions involving the swelling of the membranes surrounding the brain and spinal cord. ( often mistaken for dementia or possesion in the old days funnily enough )

Just because its old school doesnt mean it doesnt work.

I know a lot of sports people because I treat them and I am one.

johnsix

lilRedSmurf wrote: »

Leeches are used rather commonly in "actual medicine" to alleviate blood clotting and slow healing in skin grafts and frost bite treatments. Drilling a hole in the skull is used in "actual medicine" to alleviate the symptoms caused by encephelitis and similar conditions involving the swelling of the membranes surrounding the brain and spinal cord. ( often mistaken for dementia or possesion in the old days funnily enough )

Yes but the leeches didn't suck the "bad blood" out and cure alot of the stuff they where meant to way back when. Nor does drilling a hole in your head release demons.
Does acupunture actually remove blockages in invisble chi which cause all ailments?

lilRedSmurf wrote: »

I know a lot of sports people because I treat them and I am one.

Even though she swears she saw a Higgs boson, those stuck up bastards at CERN won't accept her evidence. What assholes.

faceman

johnsix wrote: »

What studies are these? Can you link to them?
Did you know there is a study showing that fake acupuncture works as well as "real" acupuncture
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/AlternativeMedicine/tb/2604
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050504101520.htm
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/17/1892?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=acupuncture&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-09/eecc-adn092607.php


One sentence two fallacies.
Just because it's been around for a thousand years it doesn't mean it works. leeches have been around for ages as has drilling a hole into your skull to release the demons.
Also subjective evidence isn't evidence. My mother saw a Higgs boson once.


And sugar pills give people relief as well. As does actual medicine.

There was an excellent documentary on either BBC or channel 4 last year (or maybe the previous year) which followed a massive study into the effects of Acupuncture on pain relief. It took experts from a number of fields and conducted the experiment on a the large bunch of volunteers who all suffered from the same condition.

The links below are to a show of similar type but i cant confirm if it was the same show.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4631930.stm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/acupuncture-does-combat-pain-study-finds-523963.html

Anyway, they hooked up volunteers to MRI machines during the insertion of needles to study brain activity.

The experiment split the volunteers into 3 groups. (There were either 1600 or 600 volunteers)
One group was treated with acupuncture, one with fake acupuncture and the last with traditional medicine.

Anyway the result was very interesting

I was treated with acupuncture some years ago for tinnitus as a last resort and it combined with TRT (tinnitus retraining therapy) had the most successful results to any of the other treatments i had.

Unfortunately the justification for the acupuncture working by the practitioner was, to be honest, bull, however it did offer benefit to me.

johnsix

faceman wrote: »

Anyway, they hooked up volunteers to MRI machines during the insertion of needles to study brain activity.

Something seems wrong about this. MRI machines are essentially big **** off magnets, the idea of putting a guy covered in metal needles in one just seems like a bad idea. (That is of course if they used metal needles)

faceman wrote: »

The experiment split the volunteers into 3 groups. (There were either 1600 or 600 volunteers)
One group was treated with acupuncture, one with fake acupuncture and the last with traditional medicine.

I think it was this study
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/17/1892?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=acupuncture&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

faceman wrote: »

Anyway the result was very interesting

I was treated with acupuncture some years ago for tinnitus as a last resort and it combined with TRT (tinnitus retraining therapy) had the most successful results to any of the other treatments i had.

Unfortunately the justification for the acupuncture working by the practitioner was, to be honest, bull, however it did offer benefit to me.

Probably should clarify myself. Acupuncture is a placebo, a very good one in fact.
However there is no evidence of it being as effective as a lot of practitioners say it is. Also there are simpler cheaper and less bull****-y way of administering a placebo.

Deacon Blues

This is interesting.

I was very sceptical about acupuncture. However, my daughter had it done for tinnitus, and has seen a remarkable improvement.

She has suffered from tinnitus many years, (since her early teens, she's twenty one now). We brought her to various doctors, and she had all the tests, including MRIs etc., and the diagnosis was tinnitus. No cure, and she was told to put up with it, and manage the symptoms. She went to the Irish Deaf Association, and they gave her some tips, such as keeping a radio on low at night to help her sleep. About three or four years ago, we went to an acupuncture clinic in the local pharmacy. A course of acupuncture was recommended, forty euro a shot, and eight visits required., twice a week for four weeks. She did it, and managed to get relief, but it tended to "wear off" after a couple of days. The tinnitus never really went, but was greatly eased. She did a few of these courses over a year.

Then, another practicioner was recommended. He's Irish, but had trained in China, and was very professional. He took a detailed history (which the practicioner in the pharmacy hadn't, theirs was quite cursory), and then did a treatment. While the placement of the needles was similar, he went deeper with them. The results were remarkable. Within hours of the first treatment, the tinnitus was effectively gone. While it did come back slightly over teh week, with a second treatment, she got more permanent relief. She goes back about once every six months for a treatment, and the tinnitus is kept at bay.

As I said at the start, I was very sceptical. I did some research (quackwatch etc.) and found it very difficult to get information. While many alternative treatments were ridiculed (and rightly so in my opinion), the best (or worst) I could find for acupuncture was that there was no scientific basis for it to work.

I don't know what all this means, except that it worked for her. Whether placebo or not (and I don't think so) the fact is that the symptoms of her tinnitus have gone after acupuncture treatments, when the full might of conventional medicine had told her to "deal with it".

I'll be very interested to hear any comments.

johnsix

Placebos can help with symptoms of many diseases, however the effect is purely psychological.
Placebos like acupuncture cannot actually cure the sickness.

Further more any placebo would have had similar effects.
However there is some evidence to show that the more elaborate the placebo the better it works.

Not only is there no scientific basis for acupuncture to work, the is no evidence that acupuncture has any effect past placebo.

???

The big reason there is no definitive studies on acupuncture is because it is very difficult to give fake accupuncture! Almost every point is now a meridan point. I heard one quack say that they must have accidently hit meridan points. You just can't argue against that!

johnsix

??? wrote: »

The big reason there is no definitive studies on acupuncture is because it is very difficult to give fake accupuncture! Almost every point is now a meridan point. I heard one quack say that they must have accidently hit meridan points. You just can't argue against that!

One of the studies used fake needles that where blunt and folded inside themselves like a magicians knife.

???

But that doesn't blind the person giving it...

Penn and Teller are covering acupuncture on the next episode of B.S...should be fun:)


Episode 2: "New Age Medicine"
Nobody ever gets sick in China. Okay, that would be true if Eastern Medicine were actually worth a monkey's ass. But here’s the truth: sticking acupuncture needles in your feet will not cure your asthma; the Chinese practice of cupping does nothing more than leave ugly red marks on your back; and the Japanese “art” of reiki won’t channel your spiritual energy for healing – it’ll just channel your money into the reiki “artist’s” pocket. At least Tiger Penis soup tastes delicious, even if it – like all the other Chinese herbal potions – doesn’t cure a damn thing. We're taking down the charlatans who prey on the seriously ill with this unproven, unscientific, and unbelievably dumb type of "medicine."

Baggio...

lilRedSmurf wrote: »

Actually there is scientific evidence to back it up.

Not trying to be overly argumentative here, but I'd be interested in seeing these studies properly. Could be funded by acupuncturists, or someone with monetary interests. Kinda' like the tests that showed smoking was okay - sanctioned by Philip Morris of course.

Just because something has been around for thousands of years doesn't mean it works, or can be replaced by science.

Anecdotal evidence, I'd need something more concrete in order to change my mind to be honest. I've heard more people recently (scientists) debunking acupuncture, and I'm inclined to agree with them.

Deacon Blues

johnsix wrote: »

Further more any placebo would have had similar effects.
However there is some evidence to show that the more elaborate the placebo the better it works.QUOTE]

Well, you've certainly covered all your bases there !!!!

You say that any placebo would have similar effect, but then that the more elaborate, the better. Seems like a major contradiction to me.

So, in my example, an expensive course of treatments should have provided a better placebo effect, but didn't. She had no previous experience of acupuncture, so didn't know that if another guy did the same points she'd have better results. We were actually very happy with the initial results from the pharmacy, but went to the other guy because someone else needed a lift for a physio session (he's also a sports physio).

johnsix

Deacon Blues wrote: »

Well, you've certainly covered all your bases there !!!!

You say that any placebo would have similar effect, but then that the more elaborate, the better. Seems like a major contradiction to me.

Similar as in they provide pain relief etc. through psychological means.
Better as in one is more successful in said pain relief than the other.

Deacon Blues wrote: »

So, in my example, an expensive course of treatments should have provided a better placebo effect, but didn't. She had no previous experience of acupuncture, so didn't know that if another guy did the same points she'd have better results. We were actually very happy with the initial results from the pharmacy, but went to the other guy because someone else needed a lift for a physio session (he's also a sports physio).

Subjective anecdotal evidence isn't evidence.
It's a logical fallacy.

pH

Deacon Blues wrote: »

You say that any placebo would have similar effect, but then that the more elaborate, the better. Seems like a major contradiction to me.

So, in my example, an expensive course of treatments should have provided a better placebo effect, but didn't. She had no previous experience of acupuncture, so didn't know that if another guy did the same points she'd have better results. We were actually very happy with the initial results from the pharmacy, but went to the other guy because someone else needed a lift for a physio session (he's also a sports physio).

No it's not (a contradiction), and it's compatible with your telling of the story (the 2nd practitioner took a more detailed history and went deeper with the needles). It's well know that 2 placebo pills are better than one, that a placebo injection is more effective than a pill, even telling the patient that this is a more expensive pill than produces a stronger effect.
http://www.badscience.net/2008/06/money-money-money-money-money/#more-715

The thing is, subjective tinnitus as you say has "no cure" (in a strict medical sense) but anything which helps relax the patient and help them deal with it will reduce symptoms. So it's not surprising that acupuncture helped in this case.

It's a hugely interesting area, combining ethics and psychology. Sometimes it can be hard for real doctors to give sham treatments (patients can pick up that fact that doctors "know" what they're giving isn't really going to help - hence the need for double-blind studies), and therefore a practitioner whose treatments have no real medical value can be hugely effective in dispensing the placebo effect because they believe in it themselves.

faceman

johnsix wrote: »

I think it was this study
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/17/1892?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=acupuncture&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

Probably should clarify myself. Acupuncture is a placebo, a very good one in fact.
However there is no evidence of it being as effective as a lot of practitioners say it is. Also there are simpler cheaper and less bull****-y way of administering a placebo.

I dont think that was the study as the results from the documentary showed dramatically positive results for acupuncture. I wish i could remember the full details so i could google it properly.

Deacon Blues wrote: »

This is interesting.

I was very sceptical about acupuncture. However, my daughter had it done for tinnitus, and has seen a remarkable improvement.

As a long time tinnitus sufferer myself, i find that understanding and support in the irish medical profession is abysmal. I have to say im surprised that the tinnitus was completely supressed by the acupuncture as tinnitus doesnt go away (unfortunately). However its good to see that your daughter had a positive result. The British Tinnitus Association are a well run organisation and arrange support groups, meets up etc. They are far more useful than the National Deaf Association in Ireland.

???

Was the doccumentary double blinded?
How did they give sham accupuncture?

The trend with accupuncture studies is that the better the studies the lower the effect and in the best studies it shows nop efficacy. Listen to quackcast (get it from iTunes) for a really good one on accupuncture.

Cyrus

i havent read all of this, however my mum has been a chronic migraine sufferer most of her adult life, 6 sessions of acupucture later and no head aches for the past 8 months

it must do something?

pH

Cyrus wrote: »

i havent read all of this, however my mum has been a chronic migraine sufferer most of her adult life, 6 sessions of acupucture later and no head aches for the past 8 months

it must do something?

No for many reasons, here's a few.

A few successful anecdotes mean nothing. Unless a trial is methodical and we know how many patients were treated and how many were successful no conclusions can be drawn.

The placebo effect is well know, and is especially strong and relevant with symptoms like chronic pain.

Even without the placebo effect, reporting bias kicks in. Has it really been 8 months "migraine free"? maybe she had a couple of headaches but hasn't counted these as migraines? Maybe it's not really 8 months, which leads me on to ...

Many symptoms are cyclical, they come and go, we tend to put up with them for a while and then look for some form of treatment, which in many cases coincides with the worst point in the cycle. Humans have a strong causation engine built into our brains, whatever we happened to do just before it started to get better is obviously 'the cure'.

Maybe she changed her diet, or took more exercise or changed something in her lifestyle she was allergic to, or maybe some combination of all of those.

Conducting proper research into the efficacy of treatments is not easy, it's a process full of pitfalls and science/medicine have developed some really good methodologies in this area. I'm sorry, and with all due respect "Well my mum ..." just doesn't cut it.

Cyrus

ok maybe it doesnt to you, i couldnt care less about acupuncture either way, im an accountant and as such a born cynic

but i can only go on what i have seen, she had chronic migraine, i.e. in the bed for a day in a darkened room to get through it migraine, and has always been prone to headaches, and now nothing for 8 months after trying everything else with no success?

also, why would the chinese persist with it for 1000s of years if there are no benefits? Maybe the studies conducted thus far arent properly testing its effects?

pH

Cyrus wrote: »

also, why would the chinese persist with it for 1000s of years if there are no benefits? Maybe the studies conducted thus far arent properly testing its effects?

Did you not read my post?

The placebo effect is a 'benefit', it's real, and especially relevant for symptoms such as chronic pain. I also gave you some other reasons as to why people might believe a treatment is effective when in reality it's not.

You may as reason that there must be something in "tiger penis" and "rhino horn" (otherwise why would traditional asian medicine persist with them!).

Cyrus

i cannot see how 'placebo' can cure chronic migraine or at least stop it for 8 months, that to me is as much hocus as you believe acupuncture to be

pH

Cyrus wrote: »

i cannot see how 'placebo' can cure chronic migraine or at least stop it for 8 months, that to me is as much hocus as you believe acupuncture to be

Context Acupuncture is widely used to prevent migraine attacks, but the available evidence of its benefit is scarce.

Objective To investigate the effectiveness of acupuncture compared with sham acupuncture and with no acupuncture in patients with migraine.

Conclusion Acupuncture was no more effective than sham acupuncture in reducing migraine headaches although both interventions were more effective than a waiting list control.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/293/17/2118

And you see that's what we call 'science'. You don't have to take anyone's word for it if you don't want to, they have published exactly what they did and the results, anyone can replicate it to check their results. It's got absolutely nothing to do with "believing" it's all about well designed repeatable experiments and evidence.

Cyrus

i understand the basis of a scientific study, ive done theses of my own, but business related, so i dont appreciate you 'trying' to talk down to me

the results of the study do seem to back up what you say.

it seems then the benefit is a psychological one. whatever it is, my mum has never been happier, headache free for the first time in over 25 years.

pH

I think the general points made by Thomas Kida in his book "Don't believe everything you think" are good ones and worth repeating here.

• We prefer stories to statistics.
  
• We seek to confirm, not to question, our ideas.
  
• We rarely appreciate the role of chance and coincidence in shaping events.
  
• We sometimes misperceive the world around us.
  
• We tend to oversimplify our thinking.
  
• Our memories are often inaccurate.

All these explain to some degree why things like acupuncture are still around and given credence.

faceman

pH wrote: »

I think the general points made by Thomas Kida in his book "Don't believe everything you think" are good ones and worth repeating here.

Funny how he didnt call the book "dont believe everything you read"

???

also, why would the chinese persist with it for 1000s of years if there are no benefits? Maybe the studies conducted thus far arent properly testing its effects?

Fallacy. Argument from antiquity.

And the studies are testing the claimed effects.

monkeyfudge

Also there was as stage where the Chinese government would have actively promoted such things as opposed to the expense of providing a proper expensive health care system.