irish team lacks pace

tughfc

just thought id bring this up and i believe that this is the major problem with irish rugby at the moment! the lack of pace in our team compared 2 other teams is high, theres no''what one would call speedsters'' in the irish team at the moment and there doesnt seem 2 be many coming through the ranks either! when i say speedsters i refare 2 people like habana,williams,rockocoko,varndell,clerc. these are people who can win matches and bring that spark that a team like ireland need in my view!
if u look at the irish backline it speaks for itself o driscoll,o gara,horgan all lack pace and kearney,fitzgerald,tommy bowe,reddan have alright pace but nowhere near enough 2 burn someone! i think in my view if we had someone with speed we may have beaten australia nd been alot closer 2 new zealand! its just the final push that we need and this wins matches!

Inquitus

meh txt spk md mi i's bld

any chance you can type it out in full for an old fella like myself? please?

Stev_o

As a race of people we arent blessed with speed like most other nations, that said iv played with and seen some very fast lads (one infact played rugby and is a sprinter and is very successful at his level) you will get fast lads but that doesnt mean they will be the best thing going.

Tbh the best wingers in the world have pace to burn BUT their best asset that sets them out against everyother winger in the world is balance guys like Caucau Robinson Rokocoko these guys had pace but my god they have the greatest balance in the world to cut defences to shreds

[Jackass]

Bring back Hickie I say!!!

Have to agree OP and is something I've thought about myself, it's a massive asset to have out wide that you rightly say can often be the difference between winning a losing and imo every team must have at least one speedster in the back 3 which we dont really have...

O'Leary is maybe the quickest option we have? Maybe try him out on the wing (where I think he origionaly played?) instead of scrum half seeing as he's been dropped as 9 for the "A" side, so maybe it's not going to work out for him there...

davyjose

Varndell? Matchwinner? :pac:

dc69

Notice anything about the players you mentioned?
We dont have any black players in the Country.We will have to wait a few more years.Fast white people are uncommon,fast black people are 2 a penny,we have to live with what we have.

Diamondmaker

Previous post here where I mentioned Hickie is a great loss for the OP very reasons. A lack of a finisher and a man who can make last ditch back tracking cover tackles giving a head start.

Only genuine guys I ever remember having pace are in fact DH and Simon Geoghan. Of course he was a different era so to speak but I would be very keen to see any sprint times recorded for him. He also had a twitchiness..ala. Shane Williams to him ready to exlode on a run like a grey hound n the blocks.

Williams try Vs the bocs was sublime example of pace and intelligence - in running advantageous lines.

Dont see where we are going to get any pace any time soon. Kearney is arguably tha fastest in the squad at the minute???

E ven in his last season old Man Hincks still had pace to burn, it was unfortunately a little early for him to retire, I felt. Of course there were external factors.

Another reason is athletics is not a school sport. Kids dont attend track and field as a matter of course. It is a very minority sport in Irl.
Wonder could we use Derval ORourke on the wing

Diamondmaker

dc69 wrote: »

Notice anything about the players you mentioned?
We dont have any black players in the Country.We will have to wait a few more years.Fast white people are uncommon,fast black people are 2 a penny,we have to live with what we have.

In a generation or 2 hopefully we will have a few O'Nguyens in the backs and McPolskovs in the Front row !

To allow this more accesibility needs to be created to rugby.

As a race we are not built to be world beaters at any team sport.... are we?

Sangre

international career aside the guy has over 40 tries for leicester and nearly a 100% strike rate.

Sangre

tughfc wrote: »

when i say speedsters i refare 2 people like habana,williams,rockocoko,varndell,clerc.

So our problem is we lack some of the best players in the world! An astute observation!

Sparky14

Diamondmaker wrote: »

Only genuine guys I ever remember having pace are in fact DH and Simon Geoghan. Of course he was a different era so to speak but I would be very keen to see any sprint times recorded for him. He also had a twitchiness..ala. Shane Williams to him ready to exlode on a run like a grey hound n the blocks.

I remember Brendan Mullin used to be extremely quick, even faster than Geoghan. Think he used to run the 200m for Ireland, know wud ideally be 100m. I remember he almost caught N'tarmack in 1995 WC from an interception and a big headstart.

Diamondmaker

Sparky14 wrote: »

I remember Brendan Mullin used to be extremely quick, even faster than Geoghan. Think he used to run the 200m for Ireland, know wud ideally be 100m..

Very true, I remeber he was a sprinter also...forgot about him.

So we have 2 maybe 3 very fast irish players since the late 80s/90s......:mad:

tughfc

Sangre wrote: »

So our problem is we lack some of the best players in the world! An astute observation!

well sangre people would maybe see o driscoll as the best in the world yet he lacks nd burning pace, u dont have 2 be the fastest to be the best look at ngwenya varndell not known for there great rugby skill but known for how they bring that spark of pace that can win matches!


also shane williams is white nd so is clerc nd the people i chose yes i know are the best in the world for there pace but no1 in the irish squad comes anywhere near there pace, people like the guys i have mentioned win games for there team purely because of there pace nd this is what ireland lack,and again there doesnt seem 2 be any burners coming through the ranks! i watched shane williams against south africa nd he single handily kept them in the game!

RuggieBear

any more text speak and there will be bans.

tughfc

my bad sorry!

thirtyfoot

Sparky14 wrote: »

I remember Brendan Mullin used to be extremely quick, even faster than Geoghan. Think he used to run the 200m for Ireland, know wud ideally be 100m. I remember he almost caught N'tarmack in 1995 WC from an interception and a big headstart.

Mullin was a handy 110m hurdler with a 14.41 PB. Back in the '80's this was close or could have been the Irish Record. However it wasn't blistering quick like example Nigel Walker who had an equivalent 110 hurdles PB of 13.51, a big difference to 14.41.

It might be a surprise that Michael Kiernan was probably faster than Mullin and ran 21.48 in a 200 and was a national 200m champion.

Amazotheamazing

It's nothing to do with not having any black players, Hickie, Williams, Tait, Clerc, aren't exactly lacking pace. We suffer because so many of Ireland's best athletes end up playing in the GAA. Look at Stephen Kelly for Limerick, has been playing for Shannon for the past 2 seasons and he's lightening fast, just came over to rugby too late to make an impact. There's two or 3 guys in the Kerry panel who are outrageously fast too, and that's replicated all over the country.

We're a minority sport in Ireland, if we'd all the GAA players playing rugby, we'd have plenty of speedsters.

Sherifu

The GAA exists, there's no point lamenting it. I'm not so sure you'd find faster rugby players from the GAA ranks but you may well find good Rugby players with upper body strength.

[Jackass]

In fairness we're not doing too badly considering it's the fourth choice sport in Ireland (after football, hurling and soccer) but if it was no.1, could we possibly be of the standard of NZ? (simular size country, simular population, but rugby is by far the no.1 sport there.)

Sorry, kind of irrelivant, but interesting to think about.

remus808

[Jackass] wrote: »

In fairness we're not doing too badly considering it's the fourth choice sport in Ireland (after football, hurling and soccer) but if it was no.1, could we possibly be of the standard of NZ? (simular size country, simular population, but rugby is by far the no.1 sport there.)

Sorry, kind of irrelivant, but interesting to think about.

We would certainly have greater player depth, but I don't think thats quite the reason for NZ's dominance. To me it is their genes and those of the south-sea islands many of their players come from that give them the edge.. Watching the Ireland V NZ game in the u20s competiton recentley, this was particularly evident. At that age, their backs were stronger than our forwards, while their forwards were faster than our backs! Says it all.

dc69

tughfc wrote: »

also shane williams is white nd so is clerc

Yes but as I said,fast white people are uncommon compared to fast black people.There are some however and the 2 guys you mentioned are some.

But they are freaks,like hickie was.Wales have no one else any where close to williams,so he is a one off like hickie and france have wingers falling out of trees,it could be due to the large algerian or other ethnic minorities interbreeding with the natives that they have so many but France are the only country I have seen that produce fast white wingers on a large scale.

Any way I dont think speed is a must,its great if you have it but it not a must imo.

I think you could win a wc without a flyer like habanna or williams.

Im pretty sure some of the rugby schools are now getting in sprint trainers for their young players so maybe something could come from this.

Because I think with sprint training,if you dont do it young then you wont get all the benefits.

Sparky14

Tingle wrote: »

Mullin was a handy 110m hurdler with a 14.41 PB. Back in the '80's this was close or could have been the Irish Record. However it wasn't blistering quick like example Nigel Walker who had an equivalent 110 hurdles PB of 13.51, a big difference to 14.41.

It might be a surprise that Michael Kiernan was probably faster than Mullin and ran 21.48 in a 200 and was a national 200m champion.

Interesting to hear about Michael Kiernan, was prob just a bit before my time. They'll obv be more quick wingers for Ireland, but agree genes are going to dictate that there not going to be as common as countries like England, France, NZ etc..

tughfc

Any way I dont think speed is a must,its great if you have it but it not a must imo.

I think you could win a wc without a flyer like habanna or williams.

.[/quote]

dont really agree there at all, speed is a necessity in international rugby without it theres very little penetration in a backline!

Diamondmaker

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

It's nothing to do with not having any black players, Hickie, Williams, Tait, Clerc, aren't exactly lacking pace. .

These guys are the exception rather than the norm.

Interestiing that 2 of the 4 are either former or current top try scorers for their country ( SW DH ), CLerc is likely to challenge Blancos record with a few season to go !

So pace obviously does matter ! Add Howlett to this list and a strong case could be made that pace is infact the be all and end all of being a prolific try scorer, or at least renowned speedsters become renowned try scorers.

Slightly seperate note:
In france and England and Wales to a lesser extent, there are several quick players for every one named above. It does not really debuck the theory.

Speed DOES have to do with having black players, in the modern day.

Its just a fact that is illusttrated by every 100 - 200m track event finals !

il gatto

I think I've mentioned this somewhere before, but I think the IRFU should look at courting a few young GAA players with a view to covering our imminebent problems at fly half. Handling skills, kicking ability and many of them are not far off physique-wise as well. I'm sure there's some 19-20year old GAA players who would jump at the idea of playing a professional sport for a few years. Sexton apart, and he's still not convinced me, it's a huge worry.

Stev_o

il gatto wrote: »

I think I've mentioned this somewhere before, but I think the IRFU should look at courting a few young GAA players with a view to covering our imminebent problems at fly half. Handling skills, kicking ability and many of them are not far off physique-wise as well. I'm sure there's some 19-20year old GAA players who would jump at the idea of playing a professional sport for a few years. Sexton apart, and he's still not convinced me, it's a huge worry.

Most GAA players iv ever talked to that were interested in playing rugby said they would want to play FB if they ever got the chance. Big boot safe under the high ball it would be natural to them.

madds

Ex-Leinster player Brendan Burke went back to play with the St. Marys GAA club in Leixlip 3 years ago during the off season. I remember one incident in a match where 3 lads on the opposing team standing in a "circle" 10 yards apart tried to handpass their way out of defence with Burkey chasing the ball down running from one man to the next, and he intercepted on the 4th or 5th pass! Watching supporters were raving about it - they couldn't believe someone could move so quickly back and forth over a short distance.

No real point to this, it's just that this thread reminded me of that incident.

Snickers Man

Diamondmaker wrote: »

As a race we are not built to be world beaters at any team sport.... are we?

Well I don't know. Seven of the first eight winners of the Hammer Throw in the Olympics (from 1900 to 1932) were born in Ireland. Although only one of them actually competed for Ireland, Pat O'Callaghan, winner in 1928 and 1932. The rest all competed for the USA.

In fact I think all or most of them were from the same area: around Pallas Greene in Limerick. But I can't be bothered googling for all of them now. Flanagan, Ryan and McGrath were some of the names.

Snickers Man

Sparky14 wrote: »

Interesting to hear about Michael Kiernan, was prob just a bit before my time.

Quite honestly, you didn't miss much. I think his fast sprint times were recorded before he played international rugby and he didn't exactly get quicker with age.

I can only remember one example of his pace being on show in an Irish rugby jersey and that was a kick and chase try against Scotland in 1983, his second season. Fairly early on in his career he started to put on weight and was decidedly pudgy.

Towards the end of his career he was an utter passenger, moved out to the wing from centre where he could do least damage and only keeping his place because of his goal kicking.

Sad but true.

Brendan Mullin on the other hand could still burn people off into his 30s. See if you can see his try against Wales in his last season (1985) as an example.

Diamondmaker

Snickers Man wrote: »

Well I don't know. Seven of the first eight winners of the Hammer Throw in the Olympics (from 1900 to 1932) were born in Ireland. Although only one of them actually competed for Ireland, Pat O'Callaghan, winner in 1928 and 1932. The rest all competed for the USA.

In fact I think all or most of them were from the same area: around Pallas Greene in Limerick. But I can't be bothered googling for all of them now. Flanagan, Ryan and McGrath were some of the names.

:rolleyes: a century ago ! Only reason we competed early on, in any sport, was due to our early take up of sports due to exposure to the UK and emigration to US whe inevitably many originated or competiton became popular.

I wonder how many nations were in the olympics back then also.

I guess we are good at horse riding and golf though. Lucrative in their own right but not team sports per se...

Snickers Man

Diamondmaker wrote: »

:rolleyes: a century ago ! Only reason we competed early on, in any sport, was due to our early take up of sports due to exposure to the UK and emigration to US whe inevitably many originated or competiton became popular.

I would say the main reason we were good at weight events back then was our diet. All that bacon and spuds helped you to bulk up legally.

Which leads on to the second point. They hadn't invented willy shrinkers (steroids) back then. Or if they had, they weren't generally available to athletes.

I take the general point of the thread though. We don't, as a nation, have a lot of naturally quick people. I think the Irish (and Leinster) backlines have suffered dramatically since Hickie's retirement. And O'Driscoll is not as fast as he once was. He is showing a Kiernan-like propensity to put on weight too.

Eoin

Snickers Man wrote: »

I take the general point of the thread though. We don't, as a nation, have a lot of naturally quick people. I think the Irish (and Leinster) backlines have suffered dramatically since Hickie's retirement. And O'Driscoll is not as fast as he once was. He is showing a Kiernan-like propensity to put on weight too.

Not entirely on-topic, but apparently one of the ex-Leinster coaches (was it Williams?) said that Girvan Dempsey was as quick as Hickie, but just never looked like he was sprinting.

dub_skav

I had heard that Dempsey was a flier too. Apparently, in all their testing he comes out very high, he just doesn't open up that much in matches.
I suppose if true he is just a more conservative player than Hickie so you would rarely see him going around people

Eoin

dub_skav wrote: »

I had heard that Dempsey was a flier too. Apparently, in all their testing he comes out very high, he just doesn't open up that much in matches.
I suppose if true he is just a more conservative player than Hickie so you would rarely see him going around people

Well, Hickie was exceptional in broken play, but I think it's just that Dempsey looked quite effortless when running flat out. He also went around a lot more players than people give him credit for, but I think that's mostly been in the last few years. I don't know if that was Cheika giving him more latitude to do so.

dub_skav

Dempsey has always looked a different player for Ireland than Leinster. Not radically different now, but he seemed to look to run more for Leinster, probably a policy of safety under Eddie.
Shame we never saw what Dempsey could do with years of more freedom, still he was an excellent fullback if tarred with the "safe" tag by people a little easily.

Amazotheamazing

Dempsey is very fast, nearly as fast as Hickie, but he's slower getting up to speed so he rarely gets a chance to use his out and out pace.

Eoin

So, is Kearney probably the quickest at the moment?

tughfc

tommy bowe or even reddan could be wrong though!

Stev_o

Sparky14 wrote: »

I remember Brendan Mullin used to be extremely quick, even faster than Geoghan. Think he used to run the 200m for Ireland, know wud ideally be 100m. I remember he almost caught N'tarmack in 1995 WC from an interception and a big headstart.

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=0sslobIa4Ho&feature=related

Heres the footage go to 7.50 and you ll see the chase at first you think he hasnt got a hope but when N'tarkmack goes past the 22 Mullin closes in rapidly.

Diamondmaker

That clip shows nothing. Im pretty fast and the level I play at, I never am out paced.
I regularly slow down toward the end when confident, cos no matter how fit you are, if you bust your gut flat out, on a sprint, you are going to feel it for a while after.
You cant go flat out unless absolutley required, its not like a 100m sprint where its all over at the end, you got a whole game to go!

N'Tamack would have had a fair idea from history and analysis that he was the fastest on the field by whatever amount and he would just know what was just enough, to stay sufficently ahead of any one else from that head start.

Id be pretty confident that Mullin would never have taken him in a race, in fact, I thought he looked quite sluggish in that clip and Ntamack cruisning!

anonymous_joe

I think that very few people could actively disagree with the OP's assertion.

Obvious point: our wingers - Horgan and Bowe are not fast guys. Now they're not slow, but they're not the out and out speedsters á la Williams, Habana, etc. I appreciate those two are unbelievably talented, but look at France with Clerc, Heymans and a host of other young fast guys.

Perhaps it's an Irish thing, or perhaps it's our coaching, but we could certainly do with changing the situation.

Sparky14

Diamondmaker wrote: »

That clip shows nothing. Im pretty fast and the level I play at, I never am out paced.
I regularly slow down toward the end when confident, cos no matter how fit you are, if you bust your gut flat out, on a sprint, you are going to feel it for a while after.
You cant go flat out unless absolutley required, its not like a 100m sprint where its all over at the end, you got a whole game to go!

N'Tamack would have had a fair idea from history and analysis that he was the fastest on the field by whatever amount and he would just know what was just enough, to stay sufficently ahead of any one else from that head start.

Id be pretty confident that Mullin would never have taken him in a race, in fact, I thought he looked quite sluggish in that clip and Ntamack cruisning!

To be honest hadn't seen the incident and it always seems better from memory. Don't agree that Mullin looked sluggish in the clip tho, hes definitely gaining on N'tarmack, if not at a tremendous rate. U can only discount when they get past the 22 and he knows he is sure he can't be stopped, because there is simply no way N'tarmack is pacing himself in a WC quarter final with a run in to finish off the game.

Pemba

il gatto wrote: »

I think I've mentioned this somewhere before, but I think the IRFU should look at courting a few young GAA players with a view to covering our imminebent problems at fly half. Handling skills, kicking ability and many of them are not far off physique-wise as well. I'm sure there's some 19-20year old GAA players who would jump at the idea of playing a professional sport for a few years. Sexton apart, and he's still not convinced me, it's a huge worry.

No chance. For a variety of reasons. Firstly, why would the IRFU want to upset the GAA circles by pilfering talented? You never s*** in your back garden.

Secondly, Out-Half is probably the one position you would never parachute anyone into without zero experience. 10's are generally naturally drawn to the position after playing the game for a few years.

Thirdly, Sexton has delivered, at an early age, in a tough spot. Give him time and you'll be convinced.

old boy

the kid earls on the munster development team, is supossed to have speed to burn. i have not seen him my self.

thirdmantackle

Shane Williams is white.

Howlett isn't coloured

Irish people can be fast - most of them are playing GAA, soccer or doing athletics

just something to realise

anonymous_joe

thirdmantackle wrote: »

Shane Williams is white.

Ryan Giggs isn't and he's Welsh. How do we know!?

Of course Ireland can produce fast people. Plenty of our footballers and gah players are pacy. We just have a lack of them in professional rugby. A noticeable lack.

ssmith6287

dub_skav wrote: »

I had heard that Dempsey was a flier too. Apparently, in all their testing he comes out very high, he just doesn't open up that much in matches.
I suppose if true he is just a more conservative player than Hickie so you would rarely see him going around people

Dempsey was recorded as being the fastest sprinter in the Irish team post world cup. Hickey was more agile though. another thing, look at their heights. Dempsey has longer legs then hickey so its always gonna look like hickey is running quicker. same with williams and robinson, we butty lads. they will always take off quicker but quickly burn out. im sure if you put lamont or rougerie up against these guys over a pitch then im sure the latter would turn out to be quicker,

il gatto

Pemba wrote: »

No chance. For a variety of reasons. Firstly, why would the IRFU want to upset the GAA circles by pilfering talented? You never s*** in your back garden.

Secondly, Out-Half is probably the one position you would never parachute anyone into without zero experience. 10's are generally naturally drawn to the position after playing the game for a few years.

Thirdly, Sexton has delivered, at an early age, in a tough spot. Give him time and you'll be convinced.

Firstly, you poach on the sly, and only players who may already be known to have an interest in rugby. Half a dozen GAA players may benefit rugby and do little or no damage to the GAA which has an abundance of top class athletes.
Secondly, you wouldn't automatically make them outhalf. They might get a few years at full back or on the wing to see if they'll be suitable first.
Sexton? What do you call delivering? It is a tough sport obviously, but he lacks the physicallity for No.10. Big centers would steamroll him at international level. I really hope he does make the step up, but potential (which he has) is not delivering. Still to be convinced.

il gatto

Earls got gas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpxsYTe1fDk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE3hFaVs_Rk

The accelration for Sexton's try vs. Argentina is where it's at. Never mind outright pace. The way he drops a gear and takes off is what you need.

thirtyfoot

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Of course Ireland can produce fast people. Plenty of our footballers and gah players are pacy. We just have a lack of them in professional rugby. A noticeable lack.

The GAA players are pacy compared to what? Other Irish GAA players. GAA players are slower than rugby backs. I saw a study of the Kerry and Mayo squads in the lead up to the All-Ireland a couple of years ago and their 50-100-200m times were very poor. In fact the average 200m time of about 28secs is around the standard that a decent 14 year old girl would run in a schools competition. 'Looking' pacy is relative to what you compete against, put these guys against international competitors like in rugby and you will see the difference. There are fast GAA players but there is no Habana waiting to be unearthed. If its pace you want to nurture you start when kids are 8-12 when the fast twitch are developing. After that you're left with what you have and can only endeavour to maximise that in later years.

Stev_o

il gatto wrote: »

Earls got gas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpxsYTe1fDk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE3hFaVs_Rk

The accelration for Sexton's try vs. Argentina is where it's at. Never mind outright pace. The way he drops a gear and takes off is what you need.

Im not sure that overall that he has unbelievable pace but your right in saying that his acceleration is very good off the mark you can see how fast his small legs are going when he checks the opposition its actually very scary! He also has the advantage of being low to the ground sort of reminiscent of the younger O'Driscoll