TMA vs MMA !!!!!

TKD SC

Ha ha, now that I have your attention!! We all know we secretely love these threads!! Anyway, I'm starting this one as a light hearted one and hope to god it doesnt actually turn into ma vs ma nonsense debate. So, please dont let that happen! No arguments allowed! Why can't we all just get along - what film was that from again?

Anyway, I'd like to start with the following:
What exactly is TMA?? We do know what MMA is (or do we?!), but what is TMA. Traditional M.A.? Does that mean we judge it by age? If so, TKD was only founded by Gen Choi in 1955; Shotokan karate by Funakoshi in 1921, Aikido by Ueshiba in the 1920's - 30's; BJJ by Gracie in the 1910's; Judo by Jigoro in the 1880's. That's just to throw out a few there, resulting in BJJ being more "traditional" than aikido!
You could also argue they all came from older arts, and therefore are traditional / have a traditional outlook / ritual in that way. Could you not also argue MMA came from older arts too so?!
Also, see good quote below from David Jones from recent thread. Everything evolved. Maybe the evolution has stopped though with all "TMA"s whereas MMA is still open to evolving? For example, I can't see tkd evolving any further, except for getting more and more technical re "put your hand here so that's it is 3cm instead of 4cm from your solar plexes" in patterns. Maybe its evolving a bit on the sparring side through different coaches etc? And did MMA not largely come from boxing, judo, wrestling and bjj. Older arts than a lot out there?!
If traditional is judged by age then are we down to pre 20th century ones? Pre 18th century? 8th century? Did MA's / fighting ability not pass down from teacher to student and changed then per each fighters individual style before passing on again? So where are we now? What's traditional? What's old? What's new? What has links to the past and what doesn't?

MMA / TMA - what's what?? I dont find my tkd classes particularly traditional, unless you want to believe that the patterns are thousands of years old and a link to the past warriors and sholars of korea. If I go to a bjj / mma class I don't see it as being any more or less traditional than tkd class. Even tai chi / ba gua I didn't find "traditional". The ones I found, in my own mind / concepts, to be more "traditional" were aikido, bujinkan jutsu and ju jutsu - which is probably down more the various rituals / kneeling bows / weapons aspect as well as perhaps the non-sparring element.

Anyway, my lunch time is over! I probably could have said the above in a more structured / logical way, but sure...discuss and reply if it's of any interest to you! Later,

Simon

Quote from David Jones on recent thread re mma sub forum:"Swamped by MMA sounds like MMA is a bad thing, its just the evolution resulting from several arts coming together. Its no longer style vs style, its a way of training to try and cover all the bases about where a fight might go as realistically as is possible (minus the biting and eye gouges) What is so threatening about that I have never been able to put my finger on. Most of the MMA guys on here have a TMA background so what is the problem. If you like what you do you should be willing to discuss it and not feel threatened by other people who have something different they like and are willing to discuss it."

cowzerp

its hard to say what traditional is, because everyone has there own version of what traditional is!

my version today of traditional would be an art that stays the same because its the way it started out and should not be changed due to tradition!! a lot of Karate's are guilty of this.

MMA is simply cross training the most effective techniques of striking and grappling and combining them to make 1 complete art..MMA done badly is cross training innefective arts to make a completley poor training system, still MMA, just bad MMA!!

Judomad

traditional?????? all that means in regards to MA is that there too small minded to evolve and move on to more effective manors of combat/self defense. yes i do judo but i also do mma which one is best??? i couldnt and wouldnt compare as judo is a great sport but thats all, a sport, MMA is a professional industry always improving and updating itself. so when people say traditional it bugs me..traditional my b****x!!!!! :p

Roper

I think Simon that your post perfectly illustrates why there is no such thing as TMA. MMA is a sport but I know a lot of guys who compete in MMA still train in "TMA" systems for the enjoyment of them so in the case they must be TMAMMAs.

It's all bollix. Myself I have a 2nd degree in TKD and I don't hide it in the closet hoping none of my MMA friends will see it. When I first began exploring new training methods I was annoyed and irritated at the inflexibility and the lack of movement I perceived in TKD. By that I mean there was no grappling. But now I realise that TKD is, well, TKD, and there's no need to drag it kicking and screaming to MMA with me. If I move on it doesn't mean it has to. Equally, a lot of people might train BJJ and wish their club did more sparring/drilling/stand-up/submissions/position work.

The only time I care anymore is if I see something being trained that I think might get someone hurt. By that I mean some guy telling someone something will disable any attacker or the like. Other than that I just leave people to do what they want and as long as they're happy, leave them be.

It's only a pastime in any case for most people, and while some get really passionate about it, most just want to keep the belly at bay, learn something new or have a bit of fun by pushing themselves. Debates like the ones we see on here, in my opinion, only reinforce the quite common idea that people who train in MMA are idiots.

Judomad

Roper wrote: »

I think Simon that your post perfectly illustrates why there is no such thing as TMA. MMA is a sport but I know a lot of guys who compete in MMA still train in "TMA" systems for the enjoyment of them so in the case they must be TMAMMAs.

It's all bollix. Myself I have a 2nd degree in TKD and I don't hide it in the closet hoping none of my MMA friends will see it. When I first began exploring new training methods I was annoyed and irritated at the inflexibility and the lack of movement I perceived in TKD. By that I mean there was no grappling. But now I realise that TKD is, well, TKD, and there's no need to drag it kicking and screaming to MMA with me. If I move on it doesn't mean it has to. Equally, a lot of people might train BJJ and wish their club did more sparring/drilling/stand-up/submissions/position work.

The only time I care anymore is if I see something being trained that I think might get someone hurt. By that I mean some guy telling someone something will disable any attacker or the like. Other than that I just leave people to do what they want and as long as they're happy, leave them be.

It's only a pastime in any case for most people, and while some get really passionate about it, most just want to keep the belly at bay, learn something new or have a bit of fun by pushing themselves. Debates like the ones we see on here, in my opinion, only reinforce the quite common idea that people who train in MMA are idiots.

bit harsh now barry, im not an idiot ALL the time, only sometimes when im bored in work looking for an arguement on here

TKD SC

Roper wrote: »

there is no such thing as TMA. MMA is a sport but I know a lot of guys who compete in MMA still train in "TMA" systems for the enjoyment of them so in the case they must be TMAMMAs.

It's all bollix. .

Much more condensed version than my long waffle!! I personally hate the term TMA, and wish it would just go away! But I suppose there's a tradition there now...:rolleyes:

conor rowan

had my first kung fu lesson the other day and it was brilliant craic. such a laugh.
what worries me is when people lose sight of this and think their ma makes them invincible. at the end of the day its just a way of keeping yourself fit,releasing stress and have a laugh
I agree with roper, when people aren't trained realistically or told that they can face anything it becomes a problem. other than that whatever makes people happy. people are by nature different what works for one might not work for another

anyway back on topic. TMA = anything that isnt MMA:D

ps will be posting a fantastic video of my mate getting accidentally kicked inthe balls by the instructor during said lesson. well once i can convince him to upload it onto youtube

Tim_Murphy

At end of the day you can boil of the BS down to this

"Train what you like; understand what you are training for; have fun!"

David Jones

What style of Kung fu is it Conor? I did Wing Chun for a good while in College, but always hankered after Chow Gar Mantis or some five animal style stuff. I think it would have given me a bit more flexibility which Im now trying to get with Ashtanga Yoga which is possibly one of the hardest things I have ever done, no joke! :eek:

Nothingcompares

who you doing the ashtanga stuff with dave? Just working from the dvd yourself?

dlofnep

Traditional martial arts = Lots of bowing, katas and other ceremonies.

Anything else != Traditional.

You could consider Muay Thai & Judo Traditional, but both are elements of MMA - to where their traditional aspects are not preserved.

David Jones

who you doing the ashtanga stuff with dave? Just working from the dvd yourself?

No with these guys http://www.ashtanga.ie/

Did the weekend beginner course and im now on my second of 4 weeks of classes, some of which are at 6am!! Then its just a matter of practising regularly. But its tough, hell of a lot tougher than I thought, very good for breathing control as well as flexibility.

Pride Fighter

TMA=MMA
MMA=TMA

arybvtcw0eolkf

Every dog has his day. If MMA is still around in its present form in 50 years time it'll be considered a TMA.

dlofnep

Doubt it Mairt. Boxing or Kickboxing aren't considered TMA's.

conor rowan

David Jones wrote: »

What style of Kung fu is it Conor? :

think it was the snake style. had a private class with myself and the 2 lads.it was their first time trying any MA and it was just a once off lesson. the guy had been training for 10 yrs he said. he called it gong fu anyway but i think thats just its name in chinese.
it was more of a laugh then anything else, just a few kicking drills. might try and call into the shaolin temple on my travels around china although ive heard its incredibly touristy and also incredibly expensive for the level of tuition you get.

yer man was class though, we spent a good 10 mins just getting him to do roundhouse and spinning kicks. he was also deadly at doing that mad let the body go all loose then harden up like a snake. well worth the 3 euro each

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote: »

Doubt it Mairt. Boxing or Kickboxing aren't considered TMA's.

Probably 99% of kickboxing clubs I've either trained with or been involved in in any way have had the base in TMA.

While MMA is great, when you take competitors and spectators into account it makes up a tiny minority of the Martial Arts community in Ireland.

ryoishin

Traditional in the Japanese sense means still being able to draw back your lineage to the begining of the art and having a unbroken line of inheritors of that art.

So for instances I can teach stuff from assiama ichiden ryu but im longer connected to the japanese teacher, so that means im no longer teaching assiama ichiden ryu even though ill be showing you the same katas in the same order etc.

But traditional can mean different things for different arts ive heard people say the gracies teach a more traditional bjj to other clubs.

Roper

ryoishin wrote: »

Traditional in the Japanese sense means still being able to draw back your lineage to the begining of the art and having a unbroken line of inheritors of that art.

So in other words, to be Traditional is about having some traditions? I have loads of traditions in my gym.
-Take your shoes off before you walk on the mats
-Keep your gi and training gear clean
-Welcome new people by introducing yourself
-Touch gloves and say thanks after a hard spar (even when you don't want to:D)
-and loads of others I can't think of.

The difficulty is when language/culture translations make a very simple thing into something huge. For example, taking your shoes off coming onto a mat is a hygiene issue, and in Japan (Thailand too) you do it everywhere, shops, homes, restaurants. It's just the done thing. But it gets tied up with all sorts of mumbo jumbo and suddenly people are taking their shoes off beause it's the martial way or something.

I've also ntoiced that once again, people are coming back to the term TMA despite early signs that we had established such a thing doesn't really exist.

cowzerp

Roper wrote: »

I've also noticed that once again, people are coming back to the term TMA despite early signs that we had established such a thing doesn't really exist.

Its better to have a term than no terms!

martial arts are not all the same, its using the term in a correct manner thats important, maybe trad could be clubs or systems that try to teach or operate in a traditional manner, even modern arts that base them selves on the whole bowing to sensei etc, Kata's, and in a lot of cases uniforms! like a karate uniform is nothing to do with the system where as a Judo Gi is part of the art!

riff-raff

How about CFS I do both styles of JUJITSU CFS AND TRAD JUJITSU and one can benifit the other ... My grounding is in trad Chinese kempo and i also adopted boxing... later i tried american kempo which i grew to dislike because of its dodgy names they use for ther techniques ....:)...but i have to say the benifits i get form the trad stuff are great because of alot of the sneaky stuff they use not only the manipulaition of joints but the use of pressure strike points which can be use in close clinches on the ground...mma is about adapting different techniques form earlier styles to make your own just look at Bas or Penn how their fighting styles are different and effective with both aiming for the same results

ryoishin

Thats not what i meant Roper I was only throwing it out there that in traditional japanese jujutsu circles traditional meant a link to a japanese grandmaster (for want of a better term, as its not used in japan) and being able to trace that link back to its fonder. Trust me it can get even weirder.

But I dont know what traditional would mean to a TKD person.

I got the impression from this forum that traditional was a certain training methology, kata etc.

Roper

ryoishin wrote: »

Thats not what i meant Roper I was only throwing it out there that in traditional japanese jujutsu circles traditional meant a link to a japanese grandmaster (for want of a better term, as its not used in japan) and being able to trace that link back to its fonder. Trust me it can get even weirder.

But I dont know what traditional would mean to a TKD person.

I got the impression from this forum that traditional was a certain training methology, kata etc.

I knew what you meant I was just pointing out that there's no real good definition of the word traditional in this context. It's subjective. Your traditions might be longer and traceable but are they any more imprtant than mine?

cowzerp wrote:

Its better to have a term than no terms!

Yeah but what do they mean. I could go to one kenpo club and see terrible training methods and then go to another and get really good training. And MMA is no guarantee of good training, there are MMA clubs I wouldn't go to if I was stuck for a place to train, I'd sooner check out other more "traditional" places.

I suppose I'm harking back to my original comment- It's all bollix.

ryoishin

Ive no traditions other than washing my shorts and its not me doing it its my ma, ha ha. Have nt been involved in Traditional jujutsu circles in awhile. Actually not since i went up to your place and got rolled around like a virgin at a swingers party.

Roper

ryoishin wrote: »

Ive no traditions other than washing my shorts and its not me doing it its my ma, ha ha. Have nt been involved in Traditional jujutsu circles in awhile. Actually not since i went up to your place and got rolled around like a virgin at a swingers party.

Okay didn't know I knew you. Who are you?

ryoishin

I was only there once, but could nt make it regularly at the time and did nt want to be the guy who turned up once a month.

pma-ire

dlofnep wrote: »

Doubt it Mairt. Boxing or Kickboxing aren't considered TMA's.

sorry man!

but kickboxing came directly out of the full contact freestyle karate fights in the USA. the guys that were fighting at that time were bill wallace, chuck norris, joe lewis and benny "the jet".

it was a fight that benny was in which was shown on tv that was where this fighting contest got it's name. the guy commenting on the fight did'int know anythign about martial arts and just said "this is a great display of KICK-BOXING" as it how he saw it.

so full contact kickboxing has as more to do with traditional karate than muai thai or boxing.

riff-raff

Is the sport not about liking what you do no matter what style you do :rolleyes: some people like formal others like it casual bit like sex really :D

Charlie3dan

Replace the term TMA with Martial art
Replace the term MMA with Fightsport

Each to their own. They could actually learn alot from each other.

Roper

ryoishin wrote: »

I was only there once, but could nt make it regularly at the time and did nt want to be one of the guys who turned up once a month.

There I fixed that for you

Remind me who you are I have a very good memory for people. Not so good for numbers, bank accounts, birthdays, ages, places, when to pay car tax. But good for names and faces.

ryoishin

Ha ha you have a few once a monthers, probably coz of your dodgy jokes.

I was just back from thailand, i had black no fear shorts on and a blue t-shirt. Im a short bloke but handsome! Dave gave me your number.

You had a tooth ache that night. You did a stand up class with lots of different stations of hitting bags, jumping over things, and rolling on a swiss ball and some sparring. Then did a bjj class, with someone in side mount taking mount and then putting on a choke while walking towards their head and then you did an armbar. Then just rolling.

And there was talk of someone crippling a kid and that being their fight name!