Sligo says "No" to Lisbon.

starbelgrade

..as I was touching on it in the Argos thread, I said I'd start a new one here.

I was as surprised as I was shocked that Sligo (& most of Ireland) gave a 2 fingers up to Lisbon - especially in a country that consistently baffles me by electing & re-electing governments that have never done & never will do anything it's electorate wants it to do.

Yet, even though we voiced our opinion.. what was the response? We're now being told that we didn't understand what we were voting on. We are too thick, obviously. The only people who celebrate our "No" vote are the european "extreme right" parties. Hmm, last time I checked, MOST european elected parties were fairly, if not extreme, right. Some, like the british Labour party, were elected under the guise of left wing, but have since been involved in nothing BUT right wing activities (war, privitisation, etc). But we obviously don't understand the nuances of THAT either.

Now we're facing the possible prospect of it being ratified ANYWAY. It reminds me of the "Dead Parrot" sketch in Monthy Python.

Barroso: No no it's not dead, it's, it's just restin'! Remarkable resilience these Treaties, ay? Beautiful typeface!

Ireland: The typeface don't enter into it. It's stone dead.

Barroso: Nononono, no, no! 'It's just resting!


Though I salute the Sligo posse who came out & said "No", and hold some contempt for the "Yay sayers", a little more contempt has to be held by the 40 odd percent of lazy b*stards who didn't even bother their holes to cast a vote. We've had less than 100 years of democracy here & as we went to the polls to defend our constitution, just under half the electorate don't even seem to care that we have one. Tut tut. How very dare you.

Xiney

The No side had a far more effective lobby in Sligo. Up north through Drumcliffe, Grange, Cliffoney - there wasn't even a single "YES" sign up. Everything was a No sign. So it seems the Yes lobby didn't even bother getting out there at all!! (Though they did get out to West Sligo and I didn't see enough of South Sligo to judge)

The No side had fear, the Yes side didn't get it's point across at all. Fianna Fail sent out a leaflet who's big and bolded point was essentially, "we've always voted yes, so let's continue that tradition!" I'm sorry, what? Asking that we vote on something based on how we voted before, rather than taking each situation as it comes? Personally that rang alarm bells for me!

I'll be honest, I wasn't allowed to vote because I'm a non-EU national (no balls about that either, I've only been here 9 months and I don't think it would have been right to let me vote for the future of Europe) so I didn't really bother digging very deep into the issues and learning too much about it. I tried to read that book they sent out with the yellow pencil on it that was supposed to explain it in plain English, but I found it not to be in plain English and that I'd rather be doing something else.

Gillie

3 reasons ppl voted no:

-Understood the Treaty but had issue with certain parts of it
-Didn't understand the treaty and played it safe
-Didn't like being told what to do and took exception with the sheer arrogance of our government!:mad:

People should have voted though. There is no excuse for not voting.

Look at where it got the stong yes. There is a pattern.

People are feeling the pinch and and want problems in our own back yard sorted first - rightly or wrongly!

brianthebard

People say that the No side used fear, but it was the Yes side that claimed we would be sidelined in Europe and that everyone would be pissed off with us if we voted no. The No side claimed we could get a better deal. Which side made Europe sound more like a big scary overlord?

Also, to highlight how crap the Yes campaign was, Marian Harkin was quite vocal and at a lot of debates and she still couldn't convince her electorate it was a good idea. She's a pain in the hole though and I hope she doesn't get re-elected next year.

Edit: the turnout nationally was pretty good actually, I doubt you'd get much better unless it was a really REALLY big issue being voted on.

T runner

A couple of points:

(This are my personal opinions only by the way)

The treaty would change one line in our constitution along the lines "Ireland accepts the lisbon treaty and its terms". Thats why we are having a referendum. There is nothing in it otherwise to affect our constitution or sovereignty. No other change is necessary. Thats a fact.

Voting no is not playing it safe. If you play it safe presumably you know the consequences of voting no. The consequences are that we will be asked to vote again with a small change, (one commisioner per country). This is the only change the EU can make without re-ratification for all members (the council of ministers can change this). The next vote will be either YES or well move on without you. I.e re-ratified in the 26 countries with the sentence added "This treaty does not apply to the republic of Ireland".

We are now in a weakened position with our partners in Europe. The parrot analogy might be apt but Ireland is the parrot who says NO too dumb to realise that all thats going to happen is that its going to get its head slapped and then be asked the exact same question.

Some people say it was used as a protest vote. I wouldnt use it as a protest vote because to me there was no danger in Lisbon. I wasnt 100% sure but the fact that ALL European leaders have agreed plus nearly all parties in Republic bar Sinn Fein convinced me.
I have to accept that group as being wiser than me, in this regard, and that they are not all idiots or conspiring against us.
Europe has been great for Ireland, for me voting YES was the safe option.

Before Europe my Aunty had to give up her job in the public service to get married. If we werent in Europe this would be a backward country stuck out on the edge of the Atlantic, going nowhere. Europe (and especially Germany, Angela Mirkle sp. defended us again this morning) have been a friend to Ireland.

Some of the protest seems to be against the government and their arrogance in telling us how to vote. The government CANNOT tell you how to vote. Only political parties can. One of the main no campaigners was a member of the Greeen party who have 2 ministers in government.

People have to take responsibility for their own vote and decide for themselves. We need to stop blaming the government and others.

The only protest vote who were correct were the poor (or s---bags as the middle class like to call them) who have been so marginalised by the Irish Society (=government AND Irish people) that they are forced to vote this way to be heard.

All that said I respect anybodys decision to vote NO as that is there right.

DenMan

I think NO was always on the cards in Connaught, especially in Sligo and Mayo. People have a right to take notice of what is going on around them. In a Democratic society we (the people) elect the Government to represent us both at home and abroad. They WORK for us. A lack of information was always going to play a part. I mean, what nations leader advises the people to vote NO if they are unsure about the treaty? In a Democratic Europe it is the people who are supposed to be a the forefront for change. Other nations now (Czech Rep) are now really considering the ramifications of the Irish peoples decision. Europe is heading towards a SuperBloc and this is very un-democratic, taking the voice away from the people. The people of Sligo voted NO for this reason. Well done on voicing your opinion. Ireland for one has always been at the forefront for change in Europe and has campaigned for a better and democratic Europe. Now we have to take the correct steps into making that a reality.

Big_Mac

Gillie wrote: »

3 reasons ppl voted no:

-Understood the Treaty but had issue with certain parts of it
-Didn't understand the treaty and played it safe
-Didn't like being told what to do and took exception with the sheer arrogance of our government!:mad:

People should have voted though. There is no excuse for not voting.

Look at where it got the stong yes. There is a pattern.

People are feeling the pinch and and want problems in our own back yard sorted first - rightly or wrongly!

Methinks you are forgetting another reason for Sligo to vote no:

Our government wanted us as a people to use our vote to give them what they want. However, they conveniently ignored us when we ran protest marches about the removal of the cancer services in Sligo. They essentially gave us a big screw you because the couldn't give a toss (I'm not interested in their political reasons for doing it, it was a bad decision by all counts). Sligo, rightfully as turned around and done the same to them, and we have given them a big two fingers.

You reap what you sow. Serves them right. Bastards!

Essexboy

Xiney wrote: »

The No side had a far more effective lobby in Sligo. Up north through Drumcliffe, Grange, Cliffoney - there wasn't even a single "YES" sign up. Everything was a No sign. So it seems the Yes lobby didn't even bother getting out there at all!! (Though they did get out to West Sligo and I didn't see enough of South Sligo to judge)

The No side had fear, the Yes side didn't get it's point across at all. Fianna Fail sent out a leaflet who's big and bolded point was essentially, "we've always voted yes, so let's continue that tradition!" I'm sorry, what? Asking that we vote on something based on how we voted before, rather than taking each situation as it comes? Personally that rang alarm bells for me!

I'll be honest, I wasn't allowed to vote because I'm a non-EU national (no balls about that either, I've only been here 9 months and I don't think it would have been right to let me vote for the future of Europe) so I didn't really bother digging very deep into the issues and learning too much about it. I tried to read that book they sent out with the yellow pencil on it that was supposed to explain it in plain English, but I found it not to be in plain English and that I'd rather be doing something else.

You are wrong! There were "Yes" posters in Grange: trouble was you had to walk right up to the posters to read the message. Councillor Patsy Barry recycled his Local Election posters by cutting off the "Vote FF" slogan and attaching a miniscule "Yes" sticker to them. His name and photo were visible at 100 yards distance, the "Yes" slogan was visible at under 1 yard.

Xiney

Nice. Very cute.

And they wonder why the yes campaign was deemed such a spectacular failure??

muffler

T runner wrote: »

No other change is necessary. Thats a fact.

That is your opinion and certainly not a fact

T runner wrote: »

Voting no is not playing it safe. Europe has been great for Ireland, for me voting YES was the safe option.

Are you being lead here by the "yes" camp. If you backed horses I assume you back them each way in order to cover your ass;

T runner wrote: »

The government CANNOT tell you how to vote. Only political parties can.

Oh shit. And here I was led to believe for all these years that the government was made up of political parties.

T runner wrote: »

People have to take responsibility for their own vote and decide for themselves. We need to stop blaming the government and others.

And I thought the people did vote and did decide and blamed nobody.

T runner wrote: »

The only protest vote who were correct were the poor (or s---bags as the middle class like to call them) who have been so marginalised by the Irish Society (=government AND Irish people) that they are forced to vote this way to be heard.

What in the name of Jesus, Mary and their wee donkey are you on about.


Now then. I voted no and Im proud of that fact but I haven't resorted to putting down the people who have voted yes on an internet discussion forum. perhaps you should take this matter up in the politics forum.

T runner

That is your opinion and certainly not a fact

You are correct there are 2 lines. Here they are


”may be a member of the European Union established by virtue of that Lisbon Treaty.“


“No provision of this Irish Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by membership of the European Union referred to Š or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the said European Union or by institutions thereof, or by bodies competent under the treaties referred to in this section, from having the force of law in the State.”

Are you being lead here by the "yes" camp. If you backed horses I assume you back them each way in order to cover your ass;

You are right again. I dont gamble, but the safe option may be to cover it each way. In a referendun situation that probably translates to not voting. However, in post referendum surveys a lot of people gave the reason of not understanding the treaty and playing it safe as a reason for voting no.

Oh shit. And here I was led to believe for all these years that the government was made up of political parties.

The government is made up of a council of ministers. Taking the current government as an example, the vast majority of FF TDs are not members of the government. To highlight the point: An independent TD who backed the election (in the dail) of a government could be made a minister (i.e part of the government) even though he/she was not a member of a political party.

And I thought the people did vote and did decide and blamed nobody.

On this thread "government arrogance" and the government wanting us to vote they way they wanted, were given as reasons for voting no.

Serves them right. Bastards!

i.e the government was blamed. Some of the vote was used as protest against things unrelated to the lisbon treaty.

What in the name of Jesus, Mary and their wee donkey are you on about.

In my decision to vote yes I took into account only the issue of the actual Lisbon treaty.
I personally would argue in principle with using use issues outside the treaty as a reason for voting either way, except for the really poor in this society to which this vote will make no difference. The Protest “No” vote for people in this situation was sensible but will no doubt be ignored by the government and looks like yet again is being ignored by the rest of the people. Again my opinion only.

Now then. I voted no and Im proud of that fact but I haven't resorted to putting down the people who have voted yes on an internet discussion forum

. I dont believe that anywhere in my post I have put anyone who voted “no” down or being disrespectful to them. I respect everyones vote equally and can only tell myself how to vote. I dont like the style of cherrypicking quotes and trying to rip them to shreds so I have tried to answer all of your points. I also stated at the start of my post that these were my opinions only.

perhaps you should take this matter up in the politics forum.

I have a query here.


Muffler, I notice that you are a moderator for this forum. In the main part of your post you seemed to give personal responses to my post but this comment seems to be more in your role as moderator. Could you clarify if you are asking me not to post anymore on this thread? If so should this not apply to all posters on this thread and not just me (the only poster on the yes side???)?

I have read the charter and if you need to take action here I will PM you as the charter advises. Let me know.

muffler

T runner wrote: »

Muffler, I notice that you are a moderator for this forum. In the main part of your post you seemed to give personal responses to my post but this comment seems to be more in your role as moderator. Could you clarify if you are asking me not to post anymore on this thread? If so should this not apply to all posters on this thread and not just me (the only poster on the yes side???)?

I have read the charter and if you need to take action here I will PM you as the charter advises. Let me know.

If you look closer you will see that I am not a moderator of this particular forum. I am a mere user responding to points you made in your earlier post.

Gillie

T runner wrote: »

Muffler, I notice that you are a moderator for this forum. In the main part of your post you seemed to give personal responses to my post but this comment seems to be more in your role as moderator. Could you clarify if you are asking me not to post anymore on this thread? If so should this not apply to all posters on this thread and not just me (the only poster on the yes side???)?

What has that got to do with it?

From what I see you seem to have taken exception to being the only Yes voter.

For what it's worth I only made up my mind on the day itself and was leaning towards a Yes.

This thread was started to reflect on how Sligo voted. The Majority voted No.

I outlined the reasons I believe that people voted No.

You seem to think you are being singled out here? Is that the case?

T runner

That is not the case. I have every right to ask for clarification If someone I perceive is a moderator may be asking me to stop posting on a thread/forum.

If he was actually a moderator then I would indeed have a concern about being singled out.

Perhaps the word "moderator" could be removed from under Mufflers name on this forum if his role is actually as registered user and not moderator to avoid future confusion?

Gillie

T runner wrote: »

That is not the case. I have every right to ask for clarification If someone I perceive is a moderator may be asking me to stop posting on a thread/forum.

If he was actually a moderator then I would indeed have a concern about being singled out.

Perhaps the word "moderator" could be removed from under Mufflers name on this forum if his role is actually as registered user and not moderator to avoid future confusion?

Maybe Muffler can confirm this but here's my Take:
He suggested that you post in the Politics forum as you seemed to be seeking a serious discussion on the Lisbon Treaty while the thread here is somewhat informal and may not go into the depts that you (or others) desire.

Muffler took you up on a couple of points as any of us (including Mods) have a right to do. It is a discussion board after all? Mods have every right to take part in discussions.

I didn't think you were being singled out but hey thats me!

Anyway. Mufflers a big boy so i'm sure he can answer this himself.

T runner

That is not the case. Surely it is reasobable to seek clarification If someone I perceive is a moderator may be asking me to stop posting on a thread/forum.

If he was actually asking me as a moderator to move my postings to the politics forum, then I would indeed (as the only one asked to move and the only "Yes" poster) have a concern about being singled out.

Perhaps the word "moderator" could be removed from under Mufflers name on this forum if his role is actually as registered user to avoid future confusion?

Ill repeat I respect everyones right to an opinion equally and therefore have no problems being the only "yes" poster on this forum. (That said if there are other yes people out there, feel free to help me out)

Gillie

T runner wrote: »

That is not the case. Surely it is reasobable to seek clarification If someone I perceive is a moderator may be asking me to stop posting on a thread/forum.

If he was actually asking me as a moderator to move my postings to the politics forum, then I would indeed (as the only one asked to move and the only "Yes" poster) have a concern about being singled out.

Perhaps the word "moderator" could be removed from under Mufflers name on this forum if his role is actually as registered user to avoid future confusion?

Ill repeat I respect everyones right to an opinion equally.

???
Look its between you and Muffler now.

For what its worth he is a mod of many fora. He just handed over the Sligo one recently.

You could try posting in Feedback but i'm bowing out now as i am coming dangerously close to back seat modding!

Good luck.

T runner

I honestly dont believe I was singled out.

If someone acting as moderator asked me alone to take my comments to the politics forum then, yes, I would have a concern about being singled out. I dont believe my comments are any more political or serious than anyone else's comments who posted here.
I also believe it is good and healthy that this debate should stay here. It is relevant to Sligo.

muffler

T runner wrote: »

That is not the case. I have every right to ask for clarification If someone I perceive is a moderator may be asking me to stop posting on a thread/forum.

If he was actually a moderator then I would indeed have a concern about being singled out.

Perhaps the word "moderator" could be removed from under Mufflers name on this forum if his role is actually as registered user and not moderator to avoid future confusion?

Gillie just about summed it up nicely. Yes I am a moderator but not of this forum. I post here in the same capacity as you. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine and if I feel like commenting on the content of your posts then I am quite entitled to.

Now you have 3 paragraphs in the post above with the word "if" in each one. Walt Disney made a fortune based on the meaning of the word "if". I would suggest that you stick to posting facts and not second guessing things that are not there.

Should you feel the need to get into serious debate about the Lisbon treaty then I still make the suggestion that you should post in the politics forum as this thread is in relation to how Sligo said no to the treaty.

Now if you dont like the word "moderator" below my user name then PM one of the admins about it.

T runner

Accusing me of "second guessing" is unfair. Because "Moderator" was written under youre name it was reasonable to assume it a fact. Or do ex-moderators on boards.ie generally keep the word moderator under their name like on this forum.

As an outgoing moderator (and moderator of many other fora according to Gillie) it would probably be good practice for you to organise the change of the description under your name? If you have a good reason to leave it there, lets hear it but you cant argue with the fact that it is misleading.


Think Ill stick around if its all the same.
Im on for this thread getting back on topic now.

takola

T-Runner,

Myself and Xiney are the moderators of this forum. However, as with all moderators on Boards the word moderator will appear under our usernames and the forums we moderate will be shown below our postcount. That's how it has always been on boards and the fact that you don't like it is not going to change it. If you would like it changed I suggest that you yourself contact one of the admins and ask them to change it. Nobody else seems to have a problem with it therefore none of the rest of us are going to do it for you.

Last time I checked this thread was to discuss how the people of Sligo voted in the lisbon treaty not which forums muffler moderates or whether or not you like that it shows moderator below his username. He has just as much right to his opinion in this thread as anyone else and in this forum he is just a regular user.

Back on topic please!

T runner

Thanks for clarifying that, that makes sense. I didnt realise moderator appears under a moderators name in all forums and not just the one that they are moderator for. As long as everyone knows that then it is not misleading.

When Muffler told me to go to the Politics forum I thought I was being requested to leave by the Forum moderator.

Anyway, that was only one of 8 points I made in reply to Muffler the other 7 being very much on topic and as yet unreplied to.

I value everyones opinion including Mufflers and am interested in hearing his response to the points (repeated below) if he chooses.

Quote:
That is your opinion and certainly not a fact

You are correct there are 2 lines. Here they are


”may be a member of the European Union established by virtue of that Lisbon Treaty.“


“No provision of this Irish Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by membership of the European Union referred to Š or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the said European Union or by institutions thereof, or by bodies competent under the treaties referred to in this section, from having the force of law in the State.”



Quote:
Are you being lead here by the "yes" camp. If you backed horses I assume you back them each way in order to cover your ass;

You are right again. I dont gamble, but the safe option may be to cover it each way. In a referendun situation that probably translates to not voting. However, in post referendum surveys a lot of people gave the reason of not understanding the treaty and playing it safe as a reason for voting no.



Quote:
Oh ****. And here I was led to believe for all these years that the government was made up of political parties.

The government is made up of a council of ministers. Taking the current government as an example, the vast majority of FF TDs are not members of the government. To highlight the point: An independent TD who backed the election (in the dail) of a government could be made a minister (i.e part of the government) even though he/she was not a member of a political party.


Quote:
And I thought the people did vote and did decide and blamed nobody.

On this thread "government arrogance" and the government wanting us to vote they way they wanted, were given as reasons for voting no.
Quote:
Serves them right. Bastards!

i.e the government was blamed. Some of the vote was used as protest against things unrelated to the lisbon treaty.




Quote:
What in the name of Jesus, Mary and their wee donkey are you on about.

In my decision to vote yes I took into account only the issue of the actual Lisbon treaty.
I personally would argue in principle with using use issues outside the treaty as a reason for voting either way, except for the really poor in this society to which this vote will make no difference. The Protest “No” vote for people in this situation was sensible but will no doubt be ignored by the government and looks like yet again is being ignored by the rest of the people. Again my opinion only.



Quote:
Now then. I voted no and Im proud of that fact but I haven't resorted to putting down the people who have voted yes on an internet discussion forum

I dont believe that anywhere in my post I have put anyone who voted “no” down or being disrespectful to them. I respect everyones vote equally and can only tell myself how to vote. I dont like the style of cherrypicking quotes and trying to rip them to shreds so I have tried to answer all of your points. I also stated at the start of my post that these were my opinions only.

Xiney

Please try to keep your posts on the subject of Lisbon somewhat related to Sligo, as this is the Sligo forum.

Otherwise, I will have to ask that this discussion migrate over to politics.

DenMan

Can I ask a question? I know in smaller communities primary schools act as polling stations. What about Sligo Town? Is it the schools a swell?, or is it community centers or maybe both. Just curious.

takola

The schools are the polling stations as far as I know. St Edwards was closed for it. I'm assuming all the national schools were.