[Almost] Official - There's Water Ice on Mars!!

Bob the Builder

Looks like they just found Water on Mars in the form of ice. Posted up onto the Nasa team's official twitter blog and just waiting for official confirmation now.

Story hasn't hit the headlines yet, or not that I can see.

Brilliant day, if we can confirm it isn't someone taking the piss....

Bob the Builder

Just an update on that:
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/06_19_pr.php

June 19, 2008 -- Dice-size crumbs of bright material have vanished from inside a trench where they were photographed by NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander four days ago, convincing scientists that the material was frozen water that vaporized after digging exposed it.

"It must be ice," said Phoenix Principal Investigator Peter Smith of the University of Arizona, Tucson. "These little clumps completely disappearing over the course of a few days, that is perfect evidence that it's ice. There had been some question whether the bright material was salt. Salt can't do that."

The chunks were left at the bottom of a trench informally called "Dodo-Goldilocks" when Phoenix's Robotic Arm enlarged that trench on June 15, during the 20th Martian day, or sol, since landing. Several were gone when Phoenix looked at the trench early today, on Sol 24.

Also early today, digging in a different trench, the Robotic Arm connected with a hard surface that has scientists excited about the prospect of next uncovering an icy layer.

The Phoenix science team spent Thursday analyzing new images and data successfully returned from the lander earlier in the day.

lostexpectation

carbon (dioxide ) ice?

they keep saying water ice but they don't know if its h20

AtomicHorror

Almost certainly not CO2. Don't think there's any solid CO2 in the region at the moment due to temperature/pressure? I think I read somewhere that as the winter comes in, CO2 ice may start to form in the region

Bob the Builder

From Twitter:
CO2 vs. H20 ice: Temp too high and pressure too low for CO2 ice.




The results are so narrowed down now, it can nearly be regarded as official by now...

AtomicHorror

A update from New Scientist. As I suspected:

Salt would not make such a disappearing act, and it is currently too warm on the northern plains of Mars for carbon dioxide ice to exist for any length of time. "It would be the equivalent of having water ice on a 140° day on Earth," Lemmon said. "It's not going to be there very long – not long enough to take its picture."

Too warm (at Mars pressure) for solid CO2.

lostexpectation

...on the north pole, its mostly co2 ice in the south pole i read.

AtomicHorror

lostexpectation wrote: »

...on the north pole, its mostly co2 ice in the south pole i read.

Phoenix is within the north pole latitudes. There should be CO2 ice further north from the landing site right now and when winter comes in, it'll likely return to where Phoenix is sitting. It will most likely cover the lander and kill it if the general temperature drop hasn't done that already.

ronbyrne2005

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aI10wpl35qqY&refer=worldwide

SuperSean11

If there is ice on mars what does that mean and what should we do now?

IrishKnight

"Scientists are rejoicing after the Phoenix Mars lander confirmed their long-held belief that ice is hiding under the surface in the Red Planet's northern region."

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0621/mars.html

marco_polo

SuperSean11 wrote: »

If there is ice on mars what does that mean and what should we do now?

Bring a bottle of vodka, mixers and some glasses

Seriously though it answers a question we have been asking for years, that water, one of the building blocks required for life is present on Mars. I believe another goal of the mission is to determine if any organic molecules are present.

WooPeeA

Let's say that there are large holes in the ice, and let's say they haven't been connected to the outside world for ages.. Is there any chance to find an Oxygen inside of those under-ice holes?

Sorry for naive question, I'm space beginner

AtomicHorror

WooPeeA wrote: »

Let's say that there are large holes in the ice, and let's say they haven't been connected to the outside world for ages.. Is there any chance to find an Oxygen inside of those under-ice holes?

Sorry for naive question, I'm space beginner

Depends if significant oxygen was present in the atmosphere of Mars in the past... it would have to be pretty deep ice mind you, since it seems that much of the ice melts or sublimates frequently enough, even near the poles. It certainly seems unlikely that this would be clarified by the Phoenix mission at any rate.

Some sort of ice core drill would be a nice mission to send.

AtomicHorror

SuperSean11 wrote: »

If there is ice on mars what does that mean and what should we do now?

They have water and we're running short on it. What would George Dubya do? Invade!

WooPeeA

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Some sort of ice core drill would be a nice mission to send.

Yeah, at least we could analyze the ice and check was there any liquid water before by those researches or do some research work to find out the answer for a question of previous atmosphere on Mars. But that would have to drill pretty deep.

AtomicHorror

WooPeeA wrote: »

Yeah, at least we could analyze the ice and check was there any liquid water before by those researches or do some research work to find out the answer for a question of previous atmosphere on Mars. But that would have to drill pretty deep.

Given the launch weight and the complexity of analysis needed, you'd probably need a manned mission for something like that.

WooPeeA

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Given the launch weight and the complexity of analysis needed, you'd probably need a manned mission for something like that.

The problem might be the energy. Most of satellites or even Phoenix are using Sun energy. But how that, let's call it robot, can get that energy under ice? Also drilling machine would need more energy than only driving Phoenix.. Going out of the ice every day to charge the batteries is not a solution..

AtomicHorror

WooPeeA wrote: »

The problem might be the energy. Most of satellites or even Phoenix are using Sun energy. But how that, let's call it robot, can get that energy under ice? Also drilling machine would need more energy than only driving Phoenix.. Going out of the ice every day to charge the batteries is not a solution..

Well for that kind of drilling you'd have a rig on the surface which would remain stationary. Energy would still be an issue though, if we relied on solar. The whole rig would need to be quite large and the solar array would be pretty impractically large too.

Manned mission, preferably with the rig built off-Earth (maybe from lunar materials) and picked up by our mission on the way or sent ahead. Not something we'll see soon so.

Pgibson

It has been known since the 1960s that the North Polar Cap of Mars is almost pure water ice.

(Water is found almost everywhere in the outer solar system incidentally.)

It's not "news" at all.

Paul.

AtomicHorror

Pgibson wrote: »

It has been known since the 1960s that the North Polar Cap of Mars is almost pure water ice.

(Water is found almost everywhere in the outer solar system incidentally.)

It's not "news" at all.

Paul.

Thought to be very likely, yes. Directly observed, no. Also, the samples taken are not of surface polar ice but of the suspected subsurface permafrost layer which was not previously confirmed. It's news if people care and we do.

Pgibson

You can SEE it from your backyard with a four inch refractor.

Even a cheap spectroscope shows it up as water ice.

And, of course, it is also below the sand swept surface as well.

I am not diminishing the importance of Phoenix,but it doesn't do NASA any credit to make a big fuss over stuff which was "old hat" decades ago.

This photo of the northern water ice was taken by the Viking Orbiter more than 30 years ago:

http://www.solarviews.com/raw/mars/northpol.gif

Paul.

AtomicHorror

Pgibson wrote: »

You can SEE it from your backyard with a four inch refractor.

What you can see with a telescope is a white blur. Not quite as gratifying as looking at actual ice-cubes sublimating on another planet. Nor as conclusive, since that white blur could as easily be CO2 ice. Indeed, for large parts of the year, that is exactly what the white largely consists of.

Pgibson wrote: »

Even a cheap spectroscope shows it up as water ice.

And does it detect the permafrost layer? As I understand it, we didn't have much of a notion of that until quite recently. At the very least, it's certainly not something that was well-publicised. Perhaps it was published in the primary literature decades ago?

Pgibson wrote: »

I am not diminishing the importance of Phoenix,but it doesn't do NASA any credit to make a big fuss over stuff which was "old hat" decades ago.

A whole bunch of people are excited at a nice piece of scientific confirmation, nobody is saying it's revolutionary or that it wasn't predicted. Radar mapping showed subsurface ice, cryoturbation patterns suggested a permafrost layer. Now we've looked at it directly. Never before have we dug into the surface of another planet, pulled out pieces of water ice and observed sublimation. It's to a broad audience. It's exciting to me, a scientist working in a different field. It's exciting to a friend of mine finishing up his Doctorate on the geology of Mars. If it's passée to you, then that's a shame. But then what are you doing on an astronomy board?

Pgibson wrote: »

This photo of the northern water ice was taken by the Viking Orbiter more than 30 years ago:

http://www.solarviews.com/raw/mars/northpol.gif

It's pretty. Ice-cubes are something I can relate to a bit better though.

Pgibson

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Ice-cubes are something I can relate to a bit better though.

Spare me!

Nasa's claim to "discovery" (for the astronomically illiterate tabloid press only...incidentally.) is about as original as it claiming to "discover" the two moons orbiting the planet.

As I said, the water ice was confirmed and photographed decades ago.

AtomicHorror

Pgibson wrote: »

Spare me!

Nasa's claim to "discovery" (for the astronomically illiterate tabloid press only...incidentally.) is about as original as it claiming to "discover" the two moons orbiting the planet.

As I said, the water ice was confirmed and photographed decades ago.

We all know that man. All you're doing is pissing on the camp fire. We find this interesting, if you don't you are not compelled to post here.

Pgibson

Found this on another posting.

Here is all the proof you need.

Water really does exist on Mars:

http://www.imageghost.com/viewer.php?file=9kn2u5637zqefdimmhck.jpg

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A7X

you were one of those people that told little kids santa wasnt real, werent you?

Pgibson

Santa is real.

He's at the North Pole...of Mars.
(Giving out Water-Ice-Lollies to the Little Green Kids.)

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm4083326208/tt0058548

.

Muppet Man

Funny guy huh ::D

I'm as cynical as the next man Paul, but I still think its cool to have a man made object digging up ice cubes on another planet... aside from the impact of this ice cube 'find', the technology alone to do this at least demonstrates huge progress.

(I do like that Water on Mars joke though, seriously).

G'luck...

Pgibson

They found a Galaxy loaded with organic molecules.

The Galaxy can certainly support human life.

Nice picture of it here:

http://www.abitofhome.ca/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/6080901.jpg


.

Muppet Man

Yeah, sorry Paul, saw that one coming, its lost the effect.... Dont even think about anything to do with Milky Ways...

radiospan

Breaking news on BBC News now:

LATEST: Nasa's Phoenix Mars Lander spacecraft confirms presence of water on planet for first time. Details soon.

EDIT: Full story up now: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7536123.stm

Pgibson

Nice pic of a dried up river estuary,and dried ocean/lake coastline,on Mars. Three billion years old:

http://geology.com/nasa/evidence-of-water-on-mars/evidence-of-water-on-mars-lg.jpg


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AtomicHorror

Good that we've finally gotten direct detection. There's always that tiny space for doubt. The big question is whether the water ever formed long term liquid bodies. The evidence seems to suggest so, but the time scales involved will be critical in terms of whether life might have had opportunity to form.

lostexpectation

i don't know wy they keep saying these canyans and river bed are evidence of water they only evidence of liquid.

AtomicHorror

lostexpectation wrote: »

i don't know wy they keep saying these canyans and river bed are evidence of water they only evidence of liquid.

They're evidence of large bodies of liquid with flow characteristics that resemble that of water and which are capable of eroding rock in a very similar fashion to water. Deposits suggest it has solvent characteristics which resemble water. There are other liquids which fit the bill, but which of them have been identified in any phase on Mars?

oceansize

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Depends if significant oxygen was present in the atmosphere of Mars in the past... it would have to be pretty deep ice mind you, since it seems that much of the ice melts or sublimates frequently enough, even near the poles. It certainly seems unlikely that this would be clarified by the Phoenix mission at any rate.

Some sort of ice core drill would be a nice mission to send.

They could send Bruce Willis and Ben Afleck up to drill for ice. best Drilling clue on the planet, or so i'm told