air to water+hrv

mr_mags

hi all
i am building a 2500 sqft dormer type concrete built house and was considering installing an air to water heat pump with ufh downstairs and rads upstairs,and a hrv system.i was quoted nearly 30k for this and i'm pulling me hair out trying to decide what to do.are these systems really cost effective,initial costs are quiet high,so i was thinking to hell with it and install oil condensing boiler with rads and insulate the ****e out of it(i'll be doing that anyway)any thoughts folks??????????

sydthebeat

firstly theres lots of threads already deailing with type of query.

but to cut it short the basic premise would be:

1. dont think about installing a heat pump if youre just going with standard traditional construction... aim for a BER of B1 or above
2. HRV is a good system, worth the money....price around though
3. install solar panels.. approx 1 sq m per person
4. it doesnt matter what heating system you have if you are able to trap the heat within the house.. always look at extra insulation
5. Airtightness is paramount.... perhaps consider off-site prefabricated systems, they tend to be a lot more airtight than open systems such as cavity walls...
6. haunt your tradesmen,... stand over them and make sure the adhere to all best practises... if you dont know what these are, then engage someone who will do this....


a good build would include all of the above...

AckwelFoley

In addition to what syd said i would say that 30k sounds on the high side for a supply and fit of the system you said for that size of house.

Ive seen a quote for 30k for a house 3300, underfloor up and down, 14kw air to water heatpump, full heat recovery with rigid duct and fittings and sound mufflers in all bedrooms and a Potable water tank (a 500l cold water storage tank with a vari speed motor)

All supplied and fitted. I price around a little further i were you.

mr_mags

thanks syd
at last some good honest advice,just one question-what do you mean by pre fabricated systems?timber frame???cheers

sydthebeat

mr_mags wrote: »

thanks syd
at last some good honest advice,just one question-what do you mean by pre fabricated systems?timber frame???cheers

yes.....
Timber Frame
ICF
SIPS
steel frame

these systems are generally designed to a high degree with minimum tolerances.

No6

Is'nt air to water the least efficient and most energy hungary of the heat pumps, I'd be inclined to stay away from that!!

AckwelFoley

No6 wrote: »

Is'nt air to water the least efficient and most energy hungary of the heat pumps, I'd be inclined to stay away from that!!

Yes and no.

There is a system (Daiken Altherma) thats uses refrigation tec with a vari speed motor and its efficency is similar to the geo thermal systems..

The older and more common air to water are less efficent because of the absence of the refrg liquid and the fixed speed motor.

Quazzie

Just recieved a quote from <SNIP> for Geothermal & UFH for a 2850 sqft storey + half combined with HRV. For supplying of all the materials but not for installation I was quoted €29000 incl VAT. This seemed a bit high. Anyone wanna comment.

P.S I can remove the company name if any mods think its unsuitable.

Mod edit: Please refrain from naming companies or individuals.

No6

It would buy an awful lot if insulation if you ask me!!

mr_mags

thanks all for the info.in the meantime i was talking to my ber assessor and he said that ufh actually reduces the ber rating???is this right?and he also advised to go the oil burner,well insulated,air tight and hrv route,same as you said syd.but with oil prices i'd prefer the air to water route,because all in prices are relatively the same as to go the traditional route of rads,but have heard that heat pumps can eat electricity,(oil is costly too i know)it was the daikin altherma unit i was looking at also snyper.so its either the trad method or the whole shebang.so my questions are
1. are heat pumps costly to run?(how realistic are the cop ratings/readings???
2. ufh why are they so good if they reduce the ber rating(i heard that they take a long time to heat up and cool down)

No6

mr_mags wrote: »

thanks all for the info.in the meantime i was talking to my ber assessor and he said that ufh actually reduces the ber rating???is this right?and he also advised to go the oil burner,well insulated,air tight and hrv route,same as you said syd.but with oil prices i'd prefer the air to water route,because all in prices are relatively the same as to go the traditional route of rads,but have heard that heat pumps can eat electricity,(oil is costly too i know)it was the daikin altherma unit i was looking at also snyper.so its either the trad method or the whole shebang.so my questions are
1. are heat pumps costly to run?(how realistic are the cop ratings/readings???
2. ufh why are they so good if they reduce the ber rating(i heard that they take a long time to heat up and cool down)

1. A correctly sized heat pump in a well insulated house with total underfloor heating may achieve the cop ratings, but to my mind you'd want a system that achieves a cop of 25% (air to water?? still don't know about that!!)
2. UFH is really trendy at the moment not efficient, it reduces the BER rating due to the lack of controll, if you take a second to think about it you are replacing small steel radiators with one really big concrete one!! It is however essential for GEO heat pump systems as they opperate at a lower temperature than radiators about 40 against 60 degrees.

Badly sized heat pumps eat electricty because the end up using essentially an immersion to heat a large volume of water in the buffer / booster tank. I have had a lady on to me about such a system installed in a small two bed house with the esb costing 700 every two months and no actually in the house....:eek::eek::eek: if you want to save money install a bulk storage wood pellet system for about 10k, use rads and spend the 20k change on masses of insulation and the hrv, or just spend the 30k on insulation ad go passive altogether.

AckwelFoley

2. UFH is really trendy at the moment not efficient, it reduces the BER rating due to the lack of controll, if you take a second to think about it you are replacing small steel radiators with one really big concrete one!!

What do you mean lack of control? Out put to underfloor can be easily controlled

Some steel rads lose up 10% efficency due to the paint on the rads itself!

Underfloor is more efficent, within the concept itself.

The problem is most ppl dont understnd ho its used.
Steel rads are possibly the least efficent means of heating a room,.

No6

It is considered for the purposes of BER as having poor control, ie slow heat up and cool down periods, if it's cold today and turn turn the heat up its tomorrow before it reaches tempeature.....SEI's opinion as per DEAP not mine!!

rebellad

snyper wrote: »

Yes and no.

There is a system (Daiken Altherma) thats uses refrigation tec with a vari speed motor and its efficency is similar to the geo thermal systems..

The older and more common air to water are less efficent because of the absence of the refrg liquid and the fixed speed motor.

Snyper I am looking at one of these Daiken Altherma systems and I was wondering are the worth it. Have you seen any of these installed??

AckwelFoley

Yes, ive seen them installed and comissioned.. Galway, waterford, kerry, Mayo, and westmeath.

Its only been on the market since November 2007, so by the end of the year we should have most of the 26 countues covered.

BadCharlie

Dimplex do an Air to Water system. Looks good and i don't think its that costly. You can google them to find out, but had a talk with them a few months ago in wexford and did not sound costly.

RJ75

first the price is high for your quote! where are u based?
second your ber assessor is an idiot! get another one! that actually know what he is talking about! as for daikin altherma its a good product! but only new to the market! and the HRV is not on appedix Q, either is the daikin altherma at the moment! be a few months!!! at least! anyways so in your DEAP your using deafault of 250% for efficiency plus thr HRV a default of 66% which of course effects your BER rating.
Daikin as a company is one of the best around(world wide) so i doubt they would use a domestic unit that will give them a bad name. plus if your using daikin altherma with rads up stairs means probably have have your own plumber to hold up rads. plus too the DHW tank has to be within 12m(linear measurement but really 10m) of the hydro box. but the DHW can be fitted to for solar. outdoor unit can be wall mounted or ground level.
you have pay extra too for Refrigerant engineer but some times this might be included in the quote. anyways price a around! 30k is high trust me!!! even for supply and install.
but again get a better ber assessor, one who knows what his/her are doing, future proof your build then size heat pump to heat losses.
best of luck!
again 30k is a joke!

RJ75

1. are heat pumps costly to run?(how realistic are the cop ratings/readings???

Answer:
daikin alterma has a simulation which when done and should fo been given to you with your quote shows u the running costs compared to oil, fossel fuel etc. and gives u there running cost.

remember oil is going up and up and up!
again your ber assessor is an idiot! where did he do his course of the internet! whats his backround!

PM me if u want more info
later

mdinee01

As far as I know the Daikan ASHP has improved COP values as it uses a different refrigerant.. 410a, rather than the more common 407c used in existing ASHPs.

Bummer if the DEAP doesn't recognise this yet for BER calculations.

MrLNB

RJ75 wrote: »

1. are heat pumps costly to run?(how realistic are the cop ratings/readings???

Answer:
daikin alterma has a simulation which when done and should fo been given to you with your quote shows u the running costs compared to oil, fossel fuel etc. and gives u there running cost.

remember oil is going up and up and up!
again your ber assessor is an idiot! where did he do his course of the internet! whats his backround!

PM me if u want more info
later

He can only be an idiot in 10yrs time when looking backwards, global economy is slowing which will and has taking oil lower. Who knows what 2015 will bring, Oil could see $75 again. You just don't know. To make a heating decision now you can only take what knowledge is available on the current market. There are so many ways to look at it, yet each solution we all come back to is oil/insulate/hrv/windows/ bla bla. . . .

the oil is a great method, its just expensive to get the oil. but when did anyone ever say "heating oil" "awh thats cheap" "great system" "oil is cheaper that lorry loads of turf" oil in my mind was always seen as expensive. It takes working with. oil is getting expensive but its not my only concern, everything is getting expensive. The knowledge we have on oil heating systems is second to none. Also are inexpensive to buy/install/service.

Take whats above and compare it to what is available today. First of all, I wish the general public didnt see their heating system as a BMW or MERC in the drive way. If you walked up a house and Mr Blogs had a A/W UFH HRV SOLOR (TUBLER) ALURADS upstairs, bells whistles, , , now is he going to tell you "awh yeah, its junk, all junk, I wasted 40K"??? is he? nope. In this game of picking a heating system in todays world "pick it and your with it" I know a few people close to me that has sung about their UFH to most friends and visitors, yet a cousin of theres told me they wish they could throw it out, too difficult to control with the weather we have, hot today cold tomorrow, windows and front door open, then the next day everyone is wrapped in blankets wait for the heat to build up.

The knowledge coupled with the Cost/installation/service of A/W Geoth seems to many a new build family as high risk high cost. the issue many people including myself has is if/when we go with these systems we would expect it to work efficiently, we would expect that the Manufacturer would install it and follow up for service (sky offer this for 400-700 year for TV) Its what you expect for your 30K. bear in mind all these new heating systems are only all worth it if the cost of OIL in the future rises to a certain level. Also depends on how one uses the heat in the house, and uses the water. I watched that programme on TV a few months back where two family's energy usages were monitored. the kids in one house left the outer doors open hail rain snow sunshine:eek:. Wasters. Its how each of us use the energy we have.


I think you were too one sided on BER guy. you cant tell what the future will bring. LOL:rolleyes:everyone is telling everyone to go with this and oil is on the way out, "you better go with either A/W or G/T" A new build couple looking to build a dream home is only looking for answers on the net, I dont think slating a BER guy is going to do it. If everyone is at the same level as i am where i know the systems out there, but to get 5 green lights in a row is impossible never mind 10.

Now am I going to fork out 30K for a half a journey???????? or would you???




But as usual another Heating Thread ends with the "Jury is out on Heat Pumps"

MR LNB