BESS v MSISS

idom

hey.
I have just finished the leaving cert last thursday (finally) and i'm certain that trinity i where i want to go next year. In my opinon its the only college in ireland that resembles a functional college.
The final CEO date is comining closer and i'm still between minds wether to do BESS or MSISS . i like business and i (did) honours maths for the leaving cert so I think I would be suited to both.
Can anyone give me some pros and cons on both, experiences, which leads to a better career, has a better image for employers?
any help would be great!!

manicmonoliths

Hey, I was in the same situation as you last year, I was considering MSISS and BESS. I picked BESS in the end because I thought it was more varied. I hadn't studied business at all before college, I did pretty much all science subjects for the Leaving Cert. I'm kinda glad now that I picked BESS over MSISS because after 1st year I'm not too sure if I'll continue with business.
From what I've heard MSISS is very Stats heavy and even if you are good at Maths, Stats can be quite tough. You do Stats in BESS too but I've heard it's focused on a lot more in MSISS.
You'd probably want to hear from someone in MSISS too, as I'm a bit biased:o

wesclark

BESS is broad and varied and easy (mince)

MSISS is fillet minion steak. You have to work hard and be good at maths but investment banks seem to desire the graduates.

I did BESS, which was good for me because I discovered I disliked Business so I could seamlessly switch to PolSci; but if you definitely want to go into Business and you aren't afraid of hard work MSISS is a great degree.

xebec

wesclark wrote: »

BESS is broad and varied and easy (mince)

MSISS is fillet minion steak.

Best description ever.

Ok, first, I've just graduated (I hope) after 5 years in MSISS so I'm fairly well up on the good and bad of both.

As has been said already, MSISS is tough. BESS students tend to disagree that MSISS is tougher, but from my experience in most subjects it is. The maths part of MSISS is important, to get the most out of the course you'll need to be fairly comfortable with honours maths - MSISS students study Engineering Maths in 1st and 2nd year, Statistics in first 3 years and other options as well. The business aspect of MSISS is actually quite a bit less than most people realise, there are core modules in economics, organisation and accounting in first and second year but after that it depends on the options you pick.

MSISS is much more varied than BESS. If you want to learn general business skills, applied statistics and mathematics skills, basic computer programming skills and interpersonal skills then MSISS is for you. IMO BESS doesn't cover as many bases.

As for career prospects... MSISS is extremely employable. But so is BESS if you've got the right background on your CV. The advantage with MSISS is that it is well-known and a small class which tends to lead to an easier foot in the door in many companies. As was already mentioned, MSISS grads do go to investment banks, but in reality they can do whatever they want with the skills they learn. From my class this year, there are people going to do accounting, others doing IT consulting, some going to further education including a masters in Computer Science in Oxford and in Management Consulting in Smurfit. My own work experience includes spending a summer with a top investment bank in London, and I'm going to a top IT consultancy in Sept.

So in summary:

• MSISS is tough!
• There is more variety in courses being taught
• There are plenty of jobs in a variety of industries
• MSISS classes are small
• MSISS is very focused on giving students the skills that they will actually need in business

If that sounds like it's for you at all, then my (biased) opinion is go for MSISS. Worst comes to the worst, people have changed from MSISS to BESS after 1st year, but that's obviously not a great reason to pick a course...

Any more specific questions?

patzer117

EFB;

Hey idom, hope the leaving cert went well.

I'm just finished third year msiss (fingers crossed) so I can explain the pros and cons of it reasonably well, though they are chopping and changing the course far too regularly.

Despite its reputation it's not too difficult once you're willing to put in the effort. The tasks that at first look daunting and impossible will be if you don't work, but if you do just a small amount they will be very easy.

I'll explain about the degree. They don't really sell it like this, but it's much moer varied than BESS and very statistics orientated. while that's not a bad thing, it certainly isn't as much fun as it looks. Some of the courses are very boring, even in first year. The management side we do with BESS (accounting, economics etc.), which is easy.
The maths is very difficult, some we do with engineers, but you'll have to be confident in honours maths, and be able to work hard on your own at it.
The computer programming we do with lots of people, it's not too difficult and can be lots of fun. it will take up lots of your time. The bright side is that while you'll be in a lab for 8 hours, so will all the rest of your friends in the class, which more than makes up for it. kinda.
You'll also learn some management skills, like how to speak in public, how to prepare reports, how to interview, which is really useful and will stand to you in later life.

I'm sure you've read up on all the courses on Msiss.com, (if you haven't, do), but i'll go through the pros and cons.

Pros:
You'll learn a lot in a variety of areas, in many ways you won't go too deep, but will know how to work practically any computer system, get a brief background in maths, accounting, economics, computers etc., and this makes you very employable.

The degree has a great reputation from graduate recruiters who target us directly. We know lots in lots of areas, especially management and computers. Because there are few of us, and we are specialised, many people want to employ us. It's unlikely you'll be out of a job, and you certainly won't be a run-of-the-mill Commerce/Bess/Business graduate. you may not like that idea though...

Some of the courses are great fun, and you'll work with your class on projects and learn lots of cool computer, simulation and other things.

cons:
The workload. It will kill you sometimes. This year we had a 1,500 word essay every week in just one course. While ECTS is being brought in, we still do almost twice as much as a two-subject Mod in first year. I can't say this enough, you will, for parts of your year, be in a computer lab for 5 hours while your friends are drinking in the Pav calling you...

Statistics: a horrible, boring subject, you'll loath it by week 4.

Apart from both of those, MSISS is great!!


Overall I'd say it depends on what you want to do. BESS leads you down the business path, with MSISS your options are still open, and i've no idea what I want to do next year. BESS is not as difficult, and because there are so many, you have to work really hard to stand out. With MSISS you will stand out, but that's not necessarily a good thing.
MSISS has computers, which BESS really doesn't have, and it also has probability, simulation, serious Maths and serious stats (and serious money...). BESS has politics, sociology, some law, and whatever else it says in the book.

If you have any specific questions please ask, if not, good luck with the choice.

defiantshrimp

I finished 3rd year BESS this year, so perhaps I can help a little. The first two years of BESS can be pretty frustrating because of all the random courses you are forced to take (some of dubious quality). The flip-side is that the first two years are also quite easy. Third year was different but still manageable.

BESS allows you to focus on either Economics, Business, Politics or Sociology in depth over a few years and also take a smattering of electives in any of the above and some law and language courses. If you have a passion for any of the above BESS might serve you well.

I agree that MSISS gives you a very focused grounding in a lot of applied areas (some stats, programming, excel, etc.) useful to a business career but I’m not sure that is necessarily a big advantage. If you are smart, you can pick up what you need to know on the job and all decent employers provide some form of training. Some employers even prefer people to study something “academic” (read esoteric) in college and then teach them what they need to know. I also think that if you have an academic interest in something (say politics) but you eventually want to work in business, you should use college to pursue your interest. Excel can wait a few years.

Finally, one thing I have noticed is the huge social differences between BESS and MSISS. MSISS is quite a small course and the students tend to be quite close as a class and socialise together, etc. BESS is monstrously large and can be rather cliquey at times. I still see people at exams that I have never seen before yet they have been in my classes for three years. That also means that, although I have many close friends from BESS, it is not the sole source of my college friendships.

godtabh

xebec wrote: »

Best description ever.

Ok, first, I've just graduated (I hope) after 5 years in MSISS so I'm fairly well up on the good and bad of both.

Is it a five year course?

They do alot of the maths stuff with the engineers up to 2nd year

xebec

kearnsr wrote: »

Is it a five year course?

Not officially... Quiet you!

Hornd

MSISS!!!!

Just finished 1st year and had a great time. Xebec and patzer117 have all ready pretty much summed it up. But ill quickly go through it. Its a real small course with just under 30 of us this year. I got on really well with everyone and you get to know people from all the years so its really sociable in that sense.

We did Maths with the engineers which wasnt too bad this year but next year it will be quite a bit tougher. If you have a good handle on LC maths ull be fine. Comp Science was good, a bit daunting a first, but stick at it and its fine. Management Sci was easy enough and the BESS subjects are fine aswell.

Its very much a logic or problem solving course so if thats your thing this is for you. I thought it was a great year and would definately recommend it.

godtabh

xebec wrote: »

Not officially... Quiet you!

Just wondering is all!

If I was to go back to college to do another degree I'd do MSISS

idom

thanks for all the advice! it seems that MSISS is a brilliant course. I'm the type of person that need work to get going and from then on I'm self motivated and really get into the work. i need a course with substance, knowing that i am achieving something.
you all said that the maths part is hard(stats), for honours maths i did little work all year. i knew i could do it and get at least a C so i didn't go into pass. plus, i didn't want to close off any options with a pass subject especially with maths(one of the most important subjects). will i still be able to manage the stats if i point in the work with a basic high c grade in the LC(maybe higher if i got lucky).
with regards to the long hours, do you still get to go out and enjoy first year college. although less important that a good degree i need a few nights out. i think a smaller class would be better, easier to get to know everyone.
what do you all feel about getting a B.A at the end and not a B.B.S? does it really make a difference if you wanted to go into business consulting or more of a business field.
why is there such a gap in points(BESS 480 and MSISS 440). does BESS have a greater demand because of its mince image, an easier course but well reputed.
thanks again for the help its really helping me come to a decision.:)

xebec

idom wrote: »

you all said that the maths part is hard(stats), for honours maths i did little work all year. i knew i could do it and get at least a C so i didn't go into pass. plus, i didn't want to close off any options with a pass subject especially with maths(one of the most important subjects). will i still be able to manage the stats if i point in the work with a basic high c grade in the LC(maybe higher if i got lucky).

The maths is hard, but certainly not impossible. Much of it in first year is repetition of higher level LC with some new stuff added in. It's just something that might take a little extra work, but don't let it put you off.

idom wrote: »

with regards to the long hours, do you still get to go out and enjoy first year college. although less important that a good degree i need a few nights out. i think a smaller class would be better, easier to get to know everyone.

Less important?! Wait till you get to college and then decide which is less important There's plenty of scope for nights out every week, the workload is high but not as bad as some other courses... In fact, MSISS is one of the most sociable courses in college, within a few weeks of being there you should know everyone in your own class and a good few from other years too.

idom wrote: »

what do you all feel about getting a B.A at the end and not a B.B.S? does it really make a difference if you wanted to go into business consulting or more of a business field.

That's a Trinity thing afaik. We get awarded a BA Mod. which is the equivalent of getting a BA Hons from other universities. Doesn't affect job prospects in the slightest.

idom wrote: »

why is there such a gap in points(BESS 480 and MSISS 440). does BESS have a greater demand because of its mince image, an easier course but well reputed.

Simple matter of supply and demand. MSISS is relatively poorly known among LC students, doesn't have a reputation for being easy and tends to be students who want something a bit more than BESS. In fact, the year before (or maybe 2) I started MSISS the points were 535, but due to an increase in the number of places on offer and less people putting it as their first choice the points have dropped.

Crash

idom wrote: »

what do you all feel about getting a B.A at the end and not a B.B.S? does it really make a difference if you wanted to go into business consulting or more of a business field.

Just on this note, I've just finished Computer science, and come out with a BA (Mod.) - its a trinity thing and they're way of awarding degrees, as opposed to a quality issue. most large recruiters will be well aware of this at this point.

andrew

Don't do BESS...480 points is high enough as it is!

Pugwash

Hey Idiom and other prospectives,

I have just wrapped-up fourth year BESS and loved it!

I'll just throw in a couple of points by way of personal experience

As previously mentioned, first and second year are a bit of a chore in that they are not as engaging as they could be but are necessary as it is in third and fourth year that you begin looking at the world around you and are able to analyse it in a way you scarcely would have before taking the courses. Some may disagree with me on that point, but I really do feel that the coverage of seemingly straight-forward if over simplistic courses such as the intro to pol, soc, eco and bus courses is necessary as they are often referred back to as a means of starting point theory to help examine business or political issues arising to a deeper level. BESS students are certainly more knowledgeable on current issues than people I know outside of BESS and her disciplines, though they would certainly be well-informed on current affairs by general standards, etc.

The temptation is to see BESS as synonymous with commerce and to be honest this couldn't be further from the truth. Not to sound too cheesy, but it is essentially a degree in the "here and now" rather than in business per se. You tackle problems that have troubled economists, philosophers and academics for centuries while also being able to examine new commercial phenomena (ie. social networking, outsourcing, etc) are affecting the lives and livelyhoods of people all over the world.

The hours are nice too this, for me ended up being crucial to my college experience. Like many, many others I had a bit of first year syndrome and was regretting not choosing another course(English), felt restless and quite alienated from college and the course I was in. This was the "big bad" nature of bess manifesting itself: you can feel a bit like just a number if you dont get stuck in and meet as many people as you can or take up the activities you meant to,etc in first term of first year. In making the effort to really "get out there", I found that college was in fact better than what it says on the tin and got over the initial disappointment for the lack of "American Pie-esque" schananigans straight out the traps. It allowed me to get involved in societies, publications, volunteering, the SU and dabble in some of the sports clubs. Now I'm sure MSISS students would argue that you are more than able to do all this as an MSISS student but for me, if I had to contend with their course load and the fact that the class network was considerably smaller, I dont think things would have worked out half as well for me. It was also in these organisations where I learned the really useful skills that I'll take with me into the world beyond undergrad.

BESS is as vocational as you want to make it. I know the faction who did consider it to be synonymous with commerce were not disappointed and could do as much accounting, finance or otherwise as they saw fit. For me, though I did develop a seemingly unlikely yet keen interest in business, I needed the balance of a more "artsy" subject: politics. You can also mix and match a bit form other BESS disciplines in first and second year, keeping your options open.

The people who seem to enjoy it most are the people who make it work for them and dont feel the need to do certain subjects because they are "useful" for one reason or another and to be honest, I can say the same of the MSISS/BESS dichotomy. If you actively want to study computers, stats, etc with a business slant then do MSISS! but if you think all this talk of engineer-grade maths/stats, etc is something to be weathered to get to the creamy centre of an investment banking job then I would certainly recommend BESS as it allows you the extra elbow room to be able to prep for such a job academically while having the option to change your mind or sample elements of other disciplines.

shay_562

To throw in on the "BESS isn't actually too bad" side, it's a brilliant degree if you're not really sure what you want to do with your life, or even have some niggling doubts. I came in in first year thinking I'd end up doing Business & Sociology, now I'm doing pure Economics, having changed my degree choice again as late as the end of 3rd year. If you make good course choices on the way up, you can do a really wide range of interesting side courses while keeping a core degree going in the stuff you're really interested in, which is kinda deadly As defiantshrimp mentioned, this can mean doing some fairly irrelevant waffle at times (1st year sociology will make you laugh and cry in equal measure, and neither one in the good way), but it's actually a somewhat interesting way to go through college.

idom

hey thanks for all the help!
i went up to trinity last wednesday and had a meeting with the head of BESS and MSISS. Both professors were really sound and interesting. as a result of all this info i decided to go for MSISS. i'll just have to work at maths next year.
thanks again.

sternn

You have made a wise decision (just finished 1st yr msiss)

Leggy Blonde

Go on MSISS!

yeah!

(1) best job prospects
(2) msiss people are generally very involved in college, possibly from being there all day long but also the small class means you have a solid group of mates to build on from the day you go in there
(3) the subjects may sound boring but theyre not after the 1st year

Boo Erns

BESS Rocks

As as Bess student you would have been on the cool and correct side of the ''which is better, BESS or MSISSISSISIISISISISISISISISISIISISIIIISSSISISIISS" debate!

tracto

I finished MSISS last year. Had a good, hard four years. Some of the things you learn really are a bit random and you'll most likely never use them again (data mining springs to mind) but they look great on the CV and you'll really stand out from all the commerce/bess heads going for the same jobs.

A lot of the course work is unnecessery, in your third and fourth year you end up handing up phonebook size reports regularly and the amount of team work you have to do gets a bit much sometimes (especially if you get the wrong team members) but its much more reflective of real life.

The final year report is worth 20% of your overall degree. Its a very worthwhile, chllenging experience. Most of them involve going in to a real life company and trying to sort out a problem for them. You basically supply a service that they'd otherwise have to pay €000s for. The standard of the reports are unreal and are far more advanced than many theses that are handed up for masters courses.

If i to do the whole CAO thing again i'm not sure if i would pick MSISS again. Its a lot of work for a BA (:(). When i comes to getting a good job after college it will come down to how you present yourself in the interview more than the degree that you did. The big 4 accountancy firms, accenture and many of the investment banks will throw jobs at you with an msiss degree but there are just as many employers who've never heard of it.

Bess has a bit of a reputation as being a bit of a joke which is very unfair imo. I would rate it very highly and certainly ahead of commerce in UCD. You can breeze through it if you want but you can also pick some good challenging subjects.

One final word of warning on MSISS, since the points dropped dramatically a few years ago (from a high of 560 i think) the drop out rates have increased significantly. But having said that many of those that drop out can switch over to BESS without having to repeat a year. I've even heard of people switching the other way (although its much harder) so your CAO decision really isnt as important as they make out!

KnockHoops

what is the hours per week of BESS in first year

Randomness

Minimum 15, maximum 20. Approx. Depends on some tutorials being every second week etc. Also this could have changed, but I doubt so in one year.

mathew

KnockHoops wrote: »

what is the hours per week of BESS in first year

Please dont pick your degree based on hours per week...

KnockHoops

i knew someone would say that.

i would still choose BESS if it was 30hrs a week I was just asking because no college course advice websites seem to have it for BESS

thanks anyway