The SNG grind???

Lilywhitehero

Ok my question here is to anyone that regularly plays sng's and is regarding their long term profitability and so on.

First of all a quick introduction to myself, long time lurker 1st time poster etc. Ive been playing online for about 6 months. Im quite into maths and the logical side of things.

Basically i multitable $10 and $20 sngs from 9 man to 45 man on Pokerstars with the odd tourney thrown in. Never really kept a proper roll jst withdrew and deposited perodically, but am up about $1k over the course of about 500 sngs.

I believe that i can play pretty much every one very well bar the odd mistake, excellent knowledge of situations, the math and the obvious push/fold strategy, probably on the tighter side than most.

Does anyone make a decent profit from grinding sngs?? i have recently gone through an unbelievable down turn of variance thats never ending, seem to always get the money in good and cant hold, the normal

overpair v underpair
AK v Ax etc
AJ v KQ etc
overcards v undercards
overpair v undercards.

My question is what is a decent ROI, Sharkscope currently has mine at 18% but im stuck in a rut, and it seems ill have to move up levels to make any sort of decent profit.

Any thoughts of general sng variance, are they profitable alone or should i begin cash?

Lurker1977

BIGMICKG is your man. Search for threads by him. Heres one to start you off:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055286775

There are a few others who play SNG's/small MTT's exclusively and make a profit too.

jimmii

18% is alright but at low stakes 20%+ is attainable by a lot. If you want to see some sick SnG playig check out Quasifiction on Stars he's taken over big joes mantle of crazy SnG player!

DBC2007

ok i have played SnG seriously this past 6 months and basically make my living from it..play very little or no cash unless it is live etc of which i play alot mtt aswell...also play alot of mtt online and constanly have good runs. but i play $50-$100 SnG constantly nearly every day on boylesports. they are extreme turbo ones 1000 startin chips and blinds up every two hands....example for 50 game 3rd money back 2nd 75 and first obv makes 125. now i think this is easy money as what most of the fish on boyles dont realise is this is a complete crapshoot. my tips for these is dont get involved at all in the early stages as your chips become so valuable at the latter stages whereas a few of them always do and that makes it easy to get at least 3rd every time which is all i really aim for as boyles have extremely gud rakeback....30% of what ever you rake you get back at end of month for anyone who didnt know. yes it can get very boring but if you already have a good size bnkroll for live play etc this the easiest and safest way of a steady income in online play.

HoLLLLLaments

dbc you are a scallywag

jimmii

Lol DBC.

Ace2007

to be fair to DBC, was talking to a guy the other nite who was telling me that he plays on stars, enters 20 $5 sst, goes off and comes back after 15 mins, since at those stakes most people play everyhand, and then when he comes back there might be only 3 left or else he's already in the money - obv this is boring - but he reckons there is a good ROI

DBC2007

what have i said wrong now lads, lmfao:D

CHD

DBC2007 wrote: »

what have i said wrong now lads, lmfao:D

your basically full of s?it.work it out

DBC2007

and hows that chad...what would you know..(here we go again mods and as you can see im not starting it)

HoLLLLLaments

dbc dont let these rascals bully you. you are one of the greats

DBC2007

HoLLLLLaments wrote: »

dbc dont let these rascals bully you. you are one of the greats

.

dannydiamond

DBC2007 wrote: »

ok i have played SnG seriously this past 6 months and basically make my living from it..play very little or no cash unless it is live etc of which i play alot mtt aswell...also play alot of mtt online and constanly have good runs. but i play $50-$100 SnG constantly nearly every day on boylesports. they are extreme turbo ones 1000 startin chips and blinds up every two hands....example for 50 game 3rd money back 2nd 75 and first obv makes 125. now i think this is easy money as what most of the fish on boyles dont realise is this is a complete crapshoot. my tips for these is dont get involved at all in the early stages as your chips become so valuable at the latter stages whereas a few of them always do and that makes it easy to get at least 3rd every time which is all i really aim for as boyles have extremely gud rakeback....30% of what ever you rake you get back at end of month for anyone who didnt know. yes it can get very boring but if you already have a good size bnkroll for live play etc this the easiest and safest way of a steady income in online play.

i saw you on microgaming last night playing a $20 stt and your waffle about RB is just that.
The op is looking for some sound advice and i think your bs is very misleading.

BTW lol at you trying to keep your sn 'secret'in a previous thread and i'm no sherlock holmes.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

jimmii wrote: »

Lol DBC.

not really lol though considering that the OP is a long time lurker and this was his/her first post. Not really encouraging for a first-time poster that your thread gets derailed with crap after three or four posts. [not saying this against you jimmii, just against DBC]

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

DBC2007 wrote: »

ok i have played SnG seriously this past 6 months and basically make my living from it..play very little or no cash unless it is live etc of which i play alot mtt aswell...also play alot of mtt online and constanly have good runs. but i play $50-$100 SnG constantly nearly every day on boylesports. they are extreme turbo ones 1000 startin chips and blinds up every two hands....example for 50 game 3rd money back 2nd 75 and first obv makes 125. now i think this is easy money as what most of the fish on boyles dont realise is this is a complete crapshoot. my tips for these is dont get involved at all in the early stages as your chips become so valuable at the latter stages whereas a few of them always do and that makes it easy to get at least 3rd every time which is all i really aim for as boyles have extremely gud rakeback....30% of what ever you rake you get back at end of month for anyone who didnt know. yes it can get very boring but if you already have a good size bnkroll for live play etc this the easiest and safest way of a steady income in online play.

at the risk of being 'leveled' it is worth stating the obvious here...

at 3rd place, which you say you aim for, you get your money back. E.g. $50 sng, you get $50 back for 3rd place, but you don't get back the reg fee of $5. Your rakeback only gives you back 1/3rd of your reg fee, thus you would be a long term loser of 2/3rds of the reg fee if this is your strategy.

/ end susceptibility to levels

DBC2007

so hows this crap roundtower. this is the way i make my money and he asked about SnG so thats my awnser. it works for me. and danny is just full of bs imo. wont be replying as i dont want to derail the thread. ill jus pm anyone else who as a problem.

DBC2007

Roundtower2 wrote: »

at the risk of being 'leveled' it is worth stating the obvious here...

at 3rd place, which you say you aim for, you get your money back. E.g. $50 sng, you get $50 back for 3rd place, but you don't get back the reg fee of $5. Your rakeback only gives you back 1/3rd of your reg fee, thus you would be a long term loser of 2/3rds of the reg fee if this is your strategy.

/ end susceptibility to levels

obv im not getting third every time..i didnt think i had to make it simple but obv i do for some people on here

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

DBC2007 wrote: »

obv im not getting third every time..i didnt think i had to make it simple but obv i do for some people on here

oh i know, from what dannydiamond suggests, you are getting a lot worse than 3rd most times

dannydiamond

DBC2007 wrote: »

so hows this crap roundtower. this is the way i make my money and he asked about SnG so thats my awnser. it works for me. and danny is just full of bs imo. wont be replying as i dont want to derail the thread. ill jus pm anyone else who as a problem.

lol you won't reply?
did you not play a $20 stt on microgaming last night?
BTW that was the first time I've seen you play there and before you get all 'that's bs' on me i think i should have run into you by now if you get my drift?

Ace2007

ffs roundtower stfu, he gave his opinion, and thats that - OP ask a simple question, he's had 18 replys, and about 12 of them are all you guys slagging off DBC, it seems simple to me that there is one rule for one person and another for news guys, ur suppose to be a mod - or at least thats what it says under ur name, what happen to giving out to people for derailing threads??????

For the record i have no idea who DBC is nor do i care tbh, i just expect equal rules for everyone. Taken from Poker Fourm Charter:

1. Do not create or post to off topic threads. These threads will be deleted. Punishment Type - B

7. If you have any issue with a post in these forums then report it to a Moderator. DO NOT post and get involved. Having said this consistently reporting posts/posters for petty reasons will also not be tolerated. Punishment Type - B.


Obv i'm breaking these 2 rules, but lets face it - there is no point in my reporting it to a Mod since he's(roundtower) half to blame for all this c.rap that goes on in any post that DBC seems to make.

DBC2007

Ace2007 wrote: »

ffs roundtower stfu, he gave his opinion, and thats that - OP ask a simple question, he's had 18 replys, and about 12 of them are all you guys slagging off DBC, it seems simple to me that there is one rule for one person and another for news guys, ur suppose to be a mod - or at least thats what it says under ur name, what happen to giving out to people for derailing threads??????

For the record i have no idea who DBC is nor do i care tbh, i just expect equal rules for everyone. Taken from Poker Fourm Charter:

1. Do not create or post to off topic threads. These threads will be deleted. Punishment Type - B

7. If you have any issue with a post in these forums then report it to a Moderator. DO NOT post and get involved. Having said this consistently reporting posts/posters for petty reasons will also not be tolerated. Punishment Type - B.


Obv i'm breaking these 2 rules, but lets face it - there is no point in my reporting it to a Mod since he's(roundtower) half to blame for all this c.rap that goes on in any post that DBC seems to make.

exactly what i wanted to say but as im new i didnt think it was my place to say that to an 'mod'. and danny no i dont 'get you' what exactly do you mean.

dannydiamond

Ace2007 wrote: »

ffs roundtower stfu, he gave his opinion, and thats that - OP ask a simple question, he's had 18 replys, and about 12 of them are all you guys slagging off DBC, it seems simple to me that there is one rule for one person and another for news guys, ur suppose to be a mod - or at least thats what it says under ur name, what happen to giving out to people for derailing threads??????

I think you're missing the point ace.The op asked a genuine question and is being given bad advice from someone who talks alot of nonsense and this needs to be pointed out.

BTW lilywhitehero,i'll try and find the time tomorrow to advise you as best I can.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Ace2007 wrote: »

ffs roundtower stfu,

1) Okay, i will stfu and not post in this thread again. I just didn't think that DBC's post was helpful, especially to an OP that was asking a serious question and got a (imo) stupid answer.

2) regarding your comment about reporting the post and it not being acted on "because i'm a mod". You will find that it would most definitely be acted on by the poker mods irrespective of me being a mod on other forums. That wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference.

DBC2007

ok again i want to ask why my advice was bad advice. how would a great player like yourself play it ehh..and danny u didnt explian wat u meant by running in to me....im interested to know thanks

dannydiamond

ok just this 1 time cause you asked nicely....

I play stts and mtts on microgaming,i've only ever come across you once and that was very recently.
You made a sweeping comment in an earlier thread stating that you make $500 a day playing $50 stts,i've 2 points to make on this.Firstly anyone who plays stts fulltime would know better than to chuck out this ballpark figure.Secondly i am aware of these turbo stts and to claim to make a steady $500 a day over any significant period,is absolute folly.
I have no wish to humiliate you on a public forum but am loath to let a newcomer take advice onboard from a poster I believe hasn't the first clue what he's talking about.

HoLLLLLaments

DBC2007 wrote: »

ill jus pm anyone else who as a problem.

yes plz, I am interested in playing poker for a living and the way you do it sounds like it could be worth a shot. Id appreciate any advice. ty

dannydiamond

DBC2007 you get all sleepy all of a sudden??

cardshark202

lmao dbc, great advice there. i hope op hasn't read your bs

CHD

chdpoker wrote: »

your basically full of s?it.work it out

i said it best i think.

my names not chad either

DBC2007

yep i was waitin for u shark you rat:D:D i knew you wouldnt be able to resist. thanks holllaments for the backup but i dont know if im qualified or not. as danny (negreanu) as he seems to be the man. ok danny boy just for you i will let you know when im putting in my next 3-4 hour session in SnG and u can watch because i really want ur respect please. it means so much to me lmao

DBC2007

chdpoker wrote: »

i said it best i think.

my names not chad either

i dont care wat ur name is tbh

CHD

DBC2007 wrote: »

i dont care wat ur name is tbh

Get it right if your gona say it while quoting me.

dannydiamond

DBC2007 wrote: »

yep i was waitin for u shark you rat:D:D i knew you wouldnt be able to resist. thanks holllaments for the backup but i dont know if im qualified or not. as danny (negreanu) as he seems to be the man. ok danny boy just for you i will let you know when im putting in my next 3-4 hour session in SnG and u can watch because i really want ur respect please. it means so much to me lmao

yup just the response i expected.

DBC2007

dannydiamond wrote: »

yup just the response i expected.

.

Lilywhitehero

Ok this thread pretty much proves boards is in bits and I was warned off it by two well known succesful young players.

DBC no offence but i have no interest in your advice as its ridiculous to be honest, and dont worry lads i obv wont be taking it on board (im a profitable player).

I am purely interested in a SNG discussion from people like Danny Diamond etc who seem genuine and prob good players.

DBC2007

Lilywhitehero wrote: »

Ok this thread pretty much proves boards is in bits and I was warned off it by two well known succesful young players.

DBC no offence but i have no interest in your advice as its ridiculous to be honest, and dont worry lads i obv wont be taking it on board (im a profitable player).

I am purely interested in a SNG discussion from people like Danny Diamond etc who seem genuine and prob good players.

just jumping on the band waggon imo but what ever..if you knew me you wouldnt say that.

CHD

someone new posts here and your already being lol'd at by him.

lol

btw lilywhitehero try http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=36

cardshark202

lol at being warned off boards.
Its v dangerous.

DBC2007

this forum is so brilliant you know lol. its like phil laak in tv cash games sayin he loves his life when hellmuth etc starts a blowup..this is the same in some ways. just so funny:pac:

cardshark202

DBC2007 wrote: »

this forum is so brilliant you know lol. its like phil laak in tv cash games sayin he loves his life when hellmuth etc starts a blowup..this is the same in some ways. just so funny:pac:

wat

Requiem4adream

Lilywhitehero wrote: »

Ok this thread pretty much proves boards is in bits and I was warned off it by two well known succesful young players.

DBC no offence but i have no interest in your advice as its ridiculous to be honest, and dont worry lads i obv wont be taking it on board (im a profitable player).

I am purely interested in a SNG discussion from people like Danny Diamond etc who seem genuine and prob good players.

I dunno if this thread is dead or whatever but i'll give it 2 cents...

Last week i played (roughly) 700 sngs. I was 20-tabling for the most part, 25-tabling sometimes. Basically all i was attempting to do was break even whilst generating FPPs (im supernova). I finished 3rd in the Saturn division of the Battle of the Planets so that got me a $600 bonus. I woulda have finished up +6k but as usual i got crushed playing some of the higher h/u sngs, i think i finished up 2k.

In terms of grinding the lower levels, even 25-tabling i have a positive ROI at most buy-ins up to $225. If i played 15 tables im sure this would be better still. It takes a lot of patience and a calm head to do it, i cant think of many more mundane, boring, high concentration things to do than 20-table $10 sngs.

I play every division in the planets, so i try do 100 sngs in each.....the lower ones are the easiest of course. However , on stars, even the lower ones are populated by semi-competent players, nobody crushes them. Most of my ROIs 25-tabling are between 0-20% for sngs up to $200 (with exceptions), then for the $300, $500 and 1k games i've a massive -% ROI. Over a small sample obv...doesnt take many losing 1k h/u games to hurt your ROI !!!

anyway - im waffling - bottom line , making money at the lower levels is easily doable. Key word is VOLUME. Gotta just pump them out on autopilot. Then if you can break even or better, the FPPs are a decent reward system (on stars). Today i bought into a tourny with them....it went pretty well I dont think it particularly matters what level you are trying to play at, it's all about volume. There are so many good players at every level these days that the only way to beat them is to become a high volume player. Short of that i dont think it's doable.

DBC2007

its just amusing is what i am saying. me posting a simple comment in which i think is good advice and some children start to bitch and fight ect

DBC2007

Requiem4adream wrote: »

I dunno if this thread is dead or whatever but i'll give it 2 cents...

Last week i played (roughly) 700 sngs. I was 20-tabling for the most part, 25-tabling sometimes. Basically all i was attempting to do was break even whilst generating FPPs (im supernova). I finished 3rd in the Saturn division of the Battle of the Planets so that got me a $600 bonus. I woulda have finished up +6k but as usual i got crushed playing some of the higher h/u sngs, i think i finished up 2k.

In terms of grinding the lower levels, even 25-tabling i have a positive ROI at most buy-ins up to $225. If i played 15 tables im sure this would be better still. It takes a lot of patience and a calm head to do it, i cant think of many more mundane, boring, high concentration things to do than 20-table $10 sngs.

I play every division in the planets, so i try do 100 sngs in each.....the lower ones are the easiest of course. However , on stars, even the lower ones are populated by semi-competent players, nobody crushes them. Most of my ROIs 25-tabling are between 0-20% for sngs up to $200 (with exceptions), then for the $300, $500 and 1k games i've a massive -% ROI. Over a small sample obv...doesnt take many losing 1k h/u games to hurt your ROI !!!

anyway - im waffling - bottom line , making money at the lower levels is easily doable. Key word is VOLUME. Gotta just pump them out on autopilot. Then if you can break even or better, the FPPs are a decent reward system (on stars). Today i bought into a tourny with them....it went pretty well I dont think it particularly matters what level you are trying to play at, it's all about volume. There are so many good players at every level these days that the only way to beat them is to become a high volume player. Short of that i dont think it's doable.

nicely put and congrats on the big score tonight.

CHD

Dan can you earn a WSOP package while breaking even at that?

Requiem4adream

chdpoker wrote: »

Dan can you earn a WSOP package while breaking even at that?

for sure. a WSOP package ($12.5k) = 725k FPPs. i'm making around 50-75k FPP a week 25-tabling (majority of games between $5 and $50). so 10-14 weeks of breaking even = 12.5k package. Like i said though, if my game selection was better i feel sure i could probably match that 12.5 over 3 months in profit. But it's not and i keep trying to prove my worth in certain games (mainly $500 h/u v CHEKdezNUTs and Croixdawg, they kill me).

It would only be possible on stars if you're supernova though, b/c you earn FPPs 3.5x quicker than a basic level player. I could be wrong but i think Mick got a package through this very system.

BIGMICKG

Lilywhitehero wrote: »

Ok my question here is to anyone that regularly plays sng's and is regarding their long term profitability and so on.

First of all a quick introduction to myself, long time lurker 1st time poster etc. Ive been playing online for about 6 months. Im quite into maths and the logical side of things.

Basically i multitable $10 and $20 sngs from 9 man to 45 man on Pokerstars with the odd tourney thrown in. Never really kept a proper roll jst withdrew and deposited perodically, but am up about $1k over the course of about 500 sngs.

I believe that i can play pretty much every one very well bar the odd mistake, excellent knowledge of situations, the math and the obvious push/fold strategy, probably on the tighter side than most.

Does anyone make a decent profit from grinding sngs?? i have recently gone through an unbelievable down turn of variance thats never ending, seem to always get the money in good and cant hold, the normal

overpair v underpair
AK v Ax etc
AJ v KQ etc
overcards v undercards
overpair v undercards.

My question is what is a decent ROI, Sharkscope currently has mine at 18% but im stuck in a rut, and it seems ill have to move up levels to make any sort of decent profit.

Any thoughts of general sng variance, are they profitable alone or should i begin cash?

of course they are profitable alone. wouldnt advise mixing them with cash games though. its best to try stick to 1 or the other imo.

regards roi, what levels u are playing and wheter ur playing turbo or non turbos will have a huge effect on this. so cant really give a good answer to that.

variance again depends on if ur playing turbos or non turbos. expect 20-30 buyin swings on non turbos and 50+ buyin downswings at turbos

very important to keep trying to move up levels imo cos it doesnt matter how good a player u are theres only a certain amount can be made at $10-$20 sngs

Dirk_Diggler

I'm currently hating my turbo sngs...can't beat it at all.

NickyOD

At the moment I'm playing 1000 $100+9 STTs a month. For the first time in a long time I'm actually reaching that target instead of dossing most of the week and playing halo 3. I only play 6 handers and both turbo and no turbo. I usually play 4-6 at a time.

I clean up on rakeback if I break even. Most of time I run between 2% and 6% ROI but at the moment I'm running very very bad.

I mentioned in another thread than I'm recovering from a 35 buy-in downswing and I'm about half way back to breaking even but this is over like 300-400 STTs which for most people is a very long time.

It's frustrating but you have to be in it for the very very long haul.

phantom_lord

would u not make more with lower variance just playing 30k+ hands of 1/2? and more importantly at least maintain some sanity!

Slash/ED

I feel I missed something big...

5starpool

Phantom_Lord, that picture was horrible, the new feature to see edited posts is very handy. Something like that should not be made a joke of. Even this thread has a line. I don't think a feedback thread is the way to go, but feel free to go that route if you really want to.

1 week ban.

R4ad - I have deleted your post. In future, I don't care what the provocation is, report the post and leave it to us to clean any mess that might need cleaning. Another ott rant like that will get you a ban as well.