I knew someone somewhere would be blaming us

Spook_ie

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7454427.stm

Among them: abortion, neutrality, tax sovereignty, military conscription, the loss of an Irish commissioner, the deregulation of the taxi trade and, of course, the desire to give the government of the day - not to mention the ubiquitous "Eurocrats" - a good kicking.

Well if things ain't going to plan you can always rely on blaming the taxi drivers.....:rolleyes:

Stephen

heh, I thought this thread was going to be about boards being blamed for the no vote :pac:

Sherifu

Smelly taxi drivers.

biko

"The taxi-drivers took mah boi"
Michael in Lost

Spook_ie

Spook_ie wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7454427.stm

Among them: abortion, neutrality, tax sovereignty, military conscription, the loss of an Irish commissioner, the deregulation of the taxi trade , boards.ie and, of course, the desire to give the government of the day - not to mention the ubiquitous "Eurocrats" - a good kicking.

Well if things ain't going to plan you can always rely on blaming the taxi drivers.....:rolleyes:

Fixed it for you Stephen

kraggy

The drivers aren't being blamed.

It's deregulation of the industry that the article is on about. Not the drivers.

But am wondering, how does the Taxi Industry come into the Lisbon Treaty?

Guy:Incognito

Taxi drivers eat kids.

Rb

The UK Press have been amazingly supportive of our vote on Thursday, was flicking through articles posted yesterday and this morning and was pleasantly surprised by it.

As have the canadians. In fact, it appears the only people to be píssed off about it are the countries politicians themselves.

Regarding the mention of taxi drivers, lol, nice.

ART6

Rb wrote: »

The UK Press have been amazingly supportive of our vote on Thursday, was flicking through articles posted yesterday and this morning and was pleasantly surprised by it.

As have the canadians. In fact, it appears the only people to be píssed off about it are the countries politicians themselves.

Regarding the mention of taxi drivers, lol, nice.

Quite. I wonder what would have happened if every EU country had a referendum? The politicians throughout Europe have just had a hard lesson rammed down their self-interested throats:mad:

Rb

ART6 wrote: »

Quite. I wonder what would have happened if every EU country had a referendum? The politicians throughout Europe have just had a hard lesson rammed down their self-interested throats:mad:

I'd imagine so. These so called "representatives" don't give a bollocks what the people who voted them in want. Centralise the power in the hope of getting a nice promotion in the coming years. Arseholes.

Steve

Then there's the question of political timing. Getting people to vote again is a good trick. But there's a limit to how many times you can pull it. Irish voters may have other things on their mind than the re-weighting of votes in the Council of Ministers.
They are not dumb, and they may get more than a little irritated at being asked to vote over and over again until they come up with the right answer.

Best 2 out of 3 FTW. If we vote no twice and yes the third time it passes?:eek:

On the Monday before the vote Brian Cowen was asked whether the treaty was dead if Ireland voted against it. "Obviously", came back his reply.
Come late Friday he'd changed his mind.

:rolleyes:

Rb

After Nice, if the Government turn around and make us vote on this again I fully believe it will be the end of Mr.Cowens political career. Every leader in the EU has to tread carefully right now, the world is watching and depending on how they handle this, they could make themselves some friends or they could turn a whole lot (more) people against them.

RATM

There's a few politicians already thinking about re-holding the referendum again until we vote the 'right way', ie their way. They got away with this on Nice 1 because the turnout was so low ( 32% ) so they had a reasonable excuse to hold it again ( though I voted no both times out to that too ). But this time the turnout was 53% so that argument is not valid either.

If the poll was close run they could make an argument for re-holding it but it was 53.4% to 46.6% which is a thrashing in political terms so again there is no reason to re-hold it on this premises.

If it does get re-held Id predict Cowen could be signing his political life away, a backlash would be easily commandeered by Libertas et al and the No vote could actually end up gaining. Such a scenario would be unthinkable for the Government.
What probably will happen is they'll go ahead and ratify it anyway ( with the spurious claim that all other countries have done so despite not asking the people if they want it or not ) and then they'll find some sort of legal framework for Ireland to ratify it without the need for another poll or a change in the Constitution.

One things for sure though, this result has really concentrated the minds of the ruling elite in Brussels and Ive no doubt their response will be to try and wriggle out of it using their normal undemocratic methods.

Guy:Incognito

Maybe people could educate themselves before voting next time should it come up again instead of "I dont know anything about it so I'll just vote _______"


On the other hand, FF are a shoe in for the next general election seeing as they have their own support plus the new electorat of " I dont know stuff so I'll vote for eveything to saty the same" Or does that not apply anymore?

Rb

Stekelly wrote: »

On the other hand, FF are a shoe in for the next general election seeing as they have their own support plus the new electorat of " I dont know stuff so I'll vote for eveything to saty the same" Or does that not apply anymore?

Sure how do you think FF have stayed in power so long? Up until now, things have appeared to be running fine (but not so much to those with a magnifying glass) to the average joe, so why change things (in their mind)? It's kept those incompetant goons in power for too long.

However, now the future of the economy is looking rather bleak and the average Joe is aware of it, will most likely turn on FF and that'll be them gone in the next GE.

Well, at least that's how it seems to me.

Depending on how FF and the EU handle our rejection of the Treaty, their actions could easily be turned on them in the next GE by opposition parties, Libertas etc. Imagine they came back and asked us to vote again, come the next GE is could easily be used by the opposition and regardless of the result, the general public will not be impressed.
Asking us to vote again would be political suicide this time around, Nice was one thing but they've little excuse to do it this time.

Similarly if they make amendments and don't put it to public vote, the public will not be impressed.

Guy:Incognito

Rb wrote: »

Sure how do you think FF have stayed in power so long? Up until now, things have appeared to be running fine (but not so much to those with a magnifying glass) to the average joe, so why change things (in their mind)? It's kept those incompetant goons in power for too long.

However, now the future of the economy is looking rather bleak and the average Joe is aware of it, will most likely turn on FF and that'll be them gone in the next GE.

Well, at least that's how it seems to me.

Depending on how FF and the EU handle our rejection of the Treaty, their actions could easily be turned on them in the next GE by opposition parties, Libertas etc. Imagine they came back and asked us to vote again, come the next GE is could easily be used by the opposition and regardless of the result, the general public will not be impressed.
Asking us to vote again would be political suicide this time around, Nice was one thing but they've little excuse to do it this time.

Similarly if they make amendments and don't put it to public vote, the public will not be impressed.

Seeing as the only politic voice of the No campaign was SF I cant see the next GE being swung away from everyone on the Yes side.

Either way, we are only talking about 57%ish of the 50% that are eligable to vote and a good chunk of those I'd imagine voted no either through ignorance or some other misguided reason (silent VRT objection on the motors forum :rolleyes:) rather than actually being against the treay per say.

Jimbo

So one theory doing the rounds is that the 26 other EU countries might move ahead with the Lisbon Treaty without Ireland.

It's a neat idea. But it is difficult to see how it works, unless it means giving the Irish the EU equivalent of a glass of whisky and a revolver and asking it to do the decent thing.

:eek: I thought euthanasia was just for the Dutch

Guy:Incognito

jimbo78 wrote: »

:eek: I thought euthanasia was just for the Dutch

Well in fairness , if you look at it from an elction pov, 99% of the people in Europe (regardless of your view on how the decisons were reached) are being old what to do by a quarter of 1% of the population.

Jimbo

Yea, but we're the best part.
The brains of Europe, if you will.

Guy:Incognito

jimbo78 wrote: »

Yea, but we're the best part.
The brains of Europe, if you will.

Em, no, just no. One thing you cannot call the general public of Ireland is the brains of Europe.I come across far to many people on a daily basis who are I'd say skirting the stupidity line and could easily drop into the bracket of "mildly metally retarded" on a bad day than I feel comfortable with.

Jimbo

Stekelly wrote: »

Em, no, just no. One thing you cannot call the general public of Ireland is the brains of Europe.

I see you live in Tallaght.
I can understand how you come to that conclusion.

Guy:Incognito

jimbo78 wrote: »

I see you live in Tallaght.
I can understand how you come to that conclusion.

We cant all be as fortunate as your good self, but either way I work all over dublin and can safly say I get a very good representation of the publc in general over the course of a few weeks.

Dont get me started on the times I venture outside the pale.:D (I kid, I kid, down boys)

Rb

Stekelly wrote: »

Seeing as the only politic voice of the No campaign was SF I cant see the next GE being swung away from everyone on the Yes side.

Indeed, however if FG/Lab/PD keep their mouths shut and let FF try to dig themselves out of a hole, depending on their decision on how to progress they could easily use it against them come the next GE. Obviously if they pipe up to support the decision, they can't use it but if I were in an opposition party as big as FG/Lab right now I'd be rubbing my hands and waiting for FF to píss off the entire electorate.

Stekelly wrote:

Either way, we are only talking about 57%ish of the 50% that are eligable to vote and a good chunk of those I'd imagine voted no either through ignorance or some other misguided reason (silent VRT objection on the motors forum :rolleyes:) rather than actually being against the treay per say.

I keep reading this. Do you realise how many went out and voted Yes purely because the Government were advising them to? Or voted yes because they're a member of a political party and wanted to stay inline?Or voted Yes due to the threats of Europe? or voted Yes as they think how the Government have handled things over the last few years went well so voting yes will only "help"? Or in the case of the old woman Monkeyfudge ran into, voted Yes because they thought it was to let Lisbon into the EU?!(:D)

I'd imagine there was equal ignorance on the Treaty from both sides tbh, thinking that the No voters were the only ones to vote out of ignorance or misunderstanding it is shortsighted and arrogant tbh.

phantom_lord

Rb wrote: »

After Nice, if the Government turn around and make us vote on this again I fully believe it will be the end of Mr.Cowens political career. Every leader in the EU has to tread carefully right now, the world is watching and depending on how they handle this, they could make themselves some friends or they could turn a whole lot (more) people against them.

lol

Spook_ie

Stekelly wrote: »

Maybe people could educate themselves before voting next time should it come up again instead of "I dont know anything about it so I'll just vote _______"


On the other hand, FF are a shoe in for the next general election seeing as they have their own support plus the new electorat of " I dont know stuff so I'll vote for eveything to saty the same" Or does that not apply anymore?

Well to be honest it did sort of happen in the UK with Maggie and the plethora of un electable labour leaders, took a long while and some complete bollix ups by the conservatives before labour got in, and now the shoes on the other foot with a complete reversal of the parties and I'd suspect that Labour will be ousted if not the next election then the one after certainly...

Overheal

if they wanted my yes vote (assuming i could vote of course) I'd be happy enough if they made the treaty comprehendable; which was probably what the majority of europeans had a problem with it in the first place.

Tar.Aldarion

Rb wrote: »

I'd imagine so. These so called "representatives" don't give a bollocks what the people who voted them in want. Centralise the power in the hope of getting a nice promotion in the coming years. Arseholes.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/PaulGildea/motivator8064447.jpg

Steve

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/PaulGildea/motivator8064447.jpg

LOLLED.:D

We need to find a new 'cause' for Rb.;)

Archeron

So what is our response to this, the reaction of our european friends to our democratic vote.

This vote I would guess is much more far reaching than quite a few people will have realized. I hope that what is happening here is for the common good of all the citizens of europe, as it doesnt seem to make much sense here.

The people of ireland, generally, love europe and all of her peoples, but we will not be blindly sold something that nobody understands. I voted yes, but I am beginning to regret it.
I am seeing a side to Europe that I have never seen before.

Spook_ie

interestingly enough if you scan through various news websites comment/forums in the UK/France/Holland etc, then it's not all doom and gloom infact a lot of reports are saying yes the Irish did a good thing giving the Eurocrats a wake up call.

Ireland shot down the Lisbon Treaty in a referendum held on Thursday. Already, EU politicians are branding the Irish as ingrates. But it is exactly that kind of arrogance which helped lead to the Irish "no" in the first place.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,559639,00.html

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has called Ireland's "no" to the EU's Lisbon Treaty a call to change the way Europe was being constructed. But he has also urged other states to continue the ratification process.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has called Ireland's "no" to the EU's Lisbon treaty a call to change the way Europe was being constructed. But he has also urged other states to continue the ratification process

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3412444,00.html

Plan C will be conducted by Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel. They will soon propose to continue the ratification process in the remaining parliaments. As soon as the other 26 member states have signed the Treaty, they will propose several options to the Irish. Option a) vote again and this time as we want, option b) leave the EU and option c) become a “privileged partner” of the EU like Turkey. But this kind of political blackmailing requires that Gordon Brown plays the game in England and does not stop the ratification process.

If this fails, and chances are high that it will fail, let’s go for Plan D. Have the stubborn Irish vote on the same text over and over again (and make voting mandatory, ideally under heavy penalties), every week if necessary, until we end up having a “Yes” majority. For Plan D, an option would be to simply fake the voting results. Specialist for the matter from Belarus or Zimbabwe will be glad to lend a helping hand.

http://www.europeus.org/archive/2008/06/14/ireland-says-%E2%80%9Cno%E2%80%9D-to-plan-b-but-don-t-worry-we-still-have-pl.html

Sam Vimes

Rb wrote: »

I keep reading this. Do you realise how many went out and voted Yes purely because the Government were advising them to? Or voted yes because they're a member of a political party and wanted to stay inline?Or voted Yes due to the threats of Europe? or voted Yes as they think how the Government have handled things over the last few years went well so voting yes will only "help"? Or in the case of the old woman Monkeyfudge ran into, voted Yes because they thought it was to let Lisbon into the EU?!(:D)

I'd imagine there was equal ignorance on the Treaty from both sides tbh, thinking that the No voters were the only ones to vote out of ignorance or misunderstanding it is shortsighted and arrogant tbh.

so you admit that thousands upon thousands (i would say the majority) voted out of ignorance and yet you think it would be political suicide to get us to vote again?

do you not think it would be acceptable for the government to renegotiate the treaty a bit, explain to people that taxes and abortion aren't affected, that the commissioners don't actually represent their countries and have portfolios such as "human rights" and that our hospitals won't actually be privatised and then get them to vote again?

would you be so against another vote if mass ignorance had ended up with a vote you didn't like?


Posted via Mobile Device

SimpleSam06

Stekelly wrote: »

Em, no, just no. One thing you cannot call the general public of Ireland is the brains of Europe.I come across far to many people on a daily basis who are I'd say skirting the stupidity line and could easily drop into the bracket of "mildly metally retarded" on a bad day than I feel comfortable with.

So would you say the Irish are below average intelligence compared to say your average Dutch or German voter? Dem tick padies, is that your line? Because if thats what you are trying to say, its something like a "mildly mentally retarded" person would say. Dur.

Stekelly wrote: »

Well in fairness , if you look at it from an elction pov, 99% of the people politicians in Europe (regardless of your view on how the decisons were reached) are being told what to do by a quarter of 1% of the population.

Fixed that for ya.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Stekelly wrote: »

Maybe people could educate themselves before voting next time should it come up again instead of "I dont know anything about it so I'll just vote _______"

As a matter of fact, although I'd consider that I was reasonably we'll read, and could (more or less) understand Lisbon I voted NO on those grounds. And I suspect a sizable majority of NO voters did too.

But like I said in another thread. I was undecided until the day I cast my vote, and a YES win wouldn't have caused me any loss of sleep.

However looking at the political lies and back peddling since the NO win, if I was asked to vote again, on the same treaty I'm no 100% confident that my NO vote was the right choice.

Welldone Ireland - Power to the people!.

Oh yea, best keep this on topic - taxi drivers.

Got a nice chap last night, he knew where Lisbon was but didn't have a clue where Portmarnock was, or the Malahide Rd. His English wasn't brilliant either. Yea I blaim him.

thefinalstage

Mairt wrote: »

His English wasn't brilliant either. Yea I blaim him.

Oh, the irony.

Archeron

Mairt wrote: »

As a matter of fact, although I'd consider that I was reasonably we'll read, and could (more or less) understand Lisbon I voted NO on those grounds. And I suspect a sizable majority of NO voters did too.

But like I said in another thread. I was undecided until the day I cast my vote, and a YES win wouldn't have caused me any loss of sleep.

However looking at the political lies and back peddling since the NO win, if I was asked to vote again, on the same treaty I'm no 100% confident that my NO vote was the right choice.

Welldone Ireland - Power to the people!.

Oh yea, best keep this on topic - taxi drivers.

Got a nice chap last night, he knew where Lisbon was but didn't have a clue where Portmarnock was, or the Malahide Rd. His English wasn't brilliant either. Yea I blaim him.

This perfectly sums up how I feel, except I voted yes and in the case of another vote, I would now most definitely be No. Aint democracy wonderful.

kowloon

+1 Archeron. This whole mess has revealed a more sinister side to European politics. I wonder if the No vote might not be stronger in a subsequent referendum.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Archeron wrote: »

This perfectly sums up how I feel, except I voted yes and in the case of another vote, I would now most definitely be No. Aint democracy wonderful.

Wow.

Rb

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/PaulGildea/motivator8064447.jpg

Lol, brilliant:D

stevec wrote: »

LOLLED.:D

We need to find a new 'cause' for Rb.;)

Ah, I've my hands full with this as it is (and it's certainly far from over!) but I've a growing gripe with COD4 on the PS3...?

Sam Vimes wrote: »

so you admit that thousands upon thousands (i would say the majority) voted out of ignorance and yet you think it would be political suicide to get us to vote again?

do you not think it would be acceptable for the government to renegotiate the treaty a bit, explain to people that taxes and abortion aren't affected, that the commissioners don't actually represent their countries and have portfolios such as "human rights" and that our hospitals won't actually be privatised and then get them to vote again?

would you be so against another vote if mass ignorance had ended up with a vote you didn't like?
Posted via Mobile Device

If a Yes had came through instead, I'd have simply accepted it, as would the majority of the No side tbh.

We certainly wouldn't get an "are you sure" vote if it was a Yes anyway

Yep, I think any effort by FF to get another vote and try to get the "right" answer on this will be met by a very bad reaction, particularly if they try to "educate" people on it. People may have voted out of ignorance, but they certainly won't want the Government telling them what to think whilst being faced with a "you got it wrong last time" scenario.

In fact, those who voted out of ignorance for a Yes may well turn to a No should they try to get another referendum on it.