Immigration played a part!

mumhaabu

Immigration played a part in the No vote yesterday and its effects on Irish society. Economic Migration into Ireland since the EU admitted ten new countries on May 1st 2004 has changed the entire fabric of Irish society. Almost 10% of people in Ireland are non-national and this change in such a short period of time has taken Irish people a lot of getting used to.

The fact of the matter is Fianna Fail lied through their teeth during Nice 2 and said there would be no influx of workers into Ireland, yet there was; as Ireland and the UK were the only two countries out of the original 15 to allow unrestricted access to our labour markets. Fast forward four years and now Ireland is now losing over 1,000 jobs a week and the dole queues are swelling big time.

Irish people should not face competition for the dwindling supply of jobs from non-nationals imo, the fact of the matter is that the prolonged presence of economic migrants in Ireland is hurting our domestic economy, by the strain it is now putting on our Welfare system as there are more people here than ever before and less jobs to sustain them. I for one hate to see Irish people having to Emigrate out of Ireland as the state jobs and training agency FÁS are now encouraging people to do. This is a farcical situation where the natives are forced to emigrate because EU migrant workers are allowed to come in and undercut Irish workers causing a downward race to the bottom.

Also the fact that EU workers are entitled to child benefits for their children in the country of origin is ludacris and this is a waste of Irish Taxpayers money. It is time Ireland restricted access to our Labour market as it is contracting and make it law that all employers must first give priority to Irish citizens over non-nationals. Ireland is facing severe recession and it is an obvious step to take.

The fact of the matter is that this played on alot of peoples minds from both sides of the divide and it got little or no attention as the liberal PC brigade will immediately label you a huge "racist" while at the same time criticising Irish people as being too lazy to work and being Anti-Irish.

my two-cents

eoin2nc

mumhaabu wrote: »

Immigration played a part in the No vote yesterday and its effects on Irish society. Economic Migration into Ireland since the EU admitted ten new countries on May 1st 2004 has changed the entire fabric of Irish society. Almost 10% of people in Ireland are non-national and this change in such a short period of time has taken Irish people a lot of getting used to.

The fact of the matter is Fianna Fail lied through their teeth during Nice 2 and said there would be no influx of workers into Ireland, yet there was; as Ireland and the UK were the only two countries out of the original 15 to allow unrestricted access to our labour markets. Fast forward four years and now Ireland is now losing over 1,000 jobs a week and the dole queues are swelling big time.

Irish people should not face competition for the dwindling supply of jobs from non-nationals imo, the fact of the matter is that the prolonged presence of economic migrants in Ireland is hurting our domestic economy, by the strain it is now putting on our Welfare system as there are more people here than ever before and less jobs to sustain them. I for one hate to see Irish people having to Emigrate out of Ireland as the state jobs and training agency FÁS are now encouraging people to do. This is a farcical situation where the natives are forced to emigrate because EU migrant workers are allowed to come in and undercut Irish workers causing a downward race to the bottom.

Also the fact that EU workers are entitled to child benefits for their children in the country of origin is ludacris and this is a waste of Irish Taxpayers money. It is time Ireland restricted access to our Labour market as it is contracting and make it law that all employers must first give priority to Irish citizens over non-nationals. Ireland is facing severe recession and it is an obvious step to take.

The fact of the matter is that this played on alot of peoples minds from both sides of the divide and it got little or no attention as the liberal PC brigade will immediately label you a huge "racist" while at the same time criticising Irish people as being too lazy to work and being Anti-Irish.

my two-cents

Your right you are racist. In before lock

sink

Sorry I don't agree with you and in fact find your view abhorrent to peaceful international society. I am sure most people would share my view on that,

marco_polo

menoscemo

mumhaabu wrote: »

Immigration played a part in the No vote yesterday and its effects on Irish society. Economic Migration into Ireland since the EU admitted ten new countries on May 1st 2004 has changed the entire fabric of Irish society. Almost 10% of people in Ireland are non-national and this change in such a short period of time has taken Irish people a lot of getting used to.

The fact of the matter is Fianna Fail lied through their teeth during Nice 2 and said there would be no influx of workers into Ireland, yet there was; as Ireland and the UK were the only two countries out of the original 15 to allow unrestricted access to our labour markets. Fast forward four years and now Ireland is now losing over 1,000 jobs a week and the dole queues are swelling big time.

Irish people should not face competition for the dwindling supply of jobs from non-nationals imo, the fact of the matter is that the prolonged presence of economic migrants in Ireland is hurting our domestic economy, by the strain it is now putting on our Welfare system as there are more people here than ever before and less jobs to sustain them. I for one hate to see Irish people having to Emigrate out of Ireland as the state jobs and training agency FÁS are now encouraging people to do. This is a farcical situation where the natives are forced to emigrate because EU migrant workers are allowed to come in and undercut Irish workers causing a downward race to the bottom.

Also the fact that EU workers are entitled to child benefits for their children in the country of origin is ludacris and this is a waste of Irish Taxpayers money. It is time Ireland restricted access to our Labour market as it is contracting and make it law that all employers must first give priority to Irish citizens over non-nationals. Ireland is facing severe recession and it is an obvious step to take.

The fact of the matter is that this played on alot of peoples minds from both sides of the divide and it got little or no attention as the liberal PC brigade will immediately label you a huge "racist" while at the same time criticising Irish people as being too lazy to work and being Anti-Irish.

my two-cents

I voted no and completely disagree with you.
I find your post racist.

mumhaabu

I never knew the EU was a race, and as I was trying to highlight in my post it is exactly this sort of attitude that is preventing the issue being discussed.

OPENROAD

I don't agree with the OP, but it would not surprise me if some people voted no for the reasons outlined, just for clarification again I do not agree with OP.

Danno

Thats quite a selfish statement. The Irish in every other nation were economic migrants in the 1980s too.

I voted NO, but not one part of your statement influenced my decision.

Pride Fighter

menoscemo wrote: »

I voted no and completely disagree with you.
I find your post racist.

My views exactly.

mike65

mumhaabu wrote: »

Irish people should not face competition for the dwindling supply of jobs from non-nationals imo, the fact of the matter is that the prolonged presence of economic migrants in Ireland is hurting our domestic economy, by the strain it is now putting on our Welfare system as there are more people here than ever before and less jobs to sustain them.

Those bloody Irish and the they way they used to keep leaving and undercutting locals being paid "on the lump"! Fewer immigrants are arriving and more are leaving already, some will stay as they have secure jobs and commitments but the rest will leave. Eastern Europe is looking for skilled workers now

example a

example b

example c

And at least Ireland has been getting the cream of the crop.

mumhaabu wrote: »

my two-cents

Not worth that much.

Mike.

gollem_1975

I would not at all be suprised if immigration played a part in peoples decision to vote No.

I have heard it argued that it was a major issue with regard to the rejection by the French and Dutch of the EU constitution plebiscite.

It may also explain why an area with a high level of immigrants such as Dublin west had a higher proportion of No votes than Dublin south and Dun Laoghaire.

if this is the case then its just another example of people voting No not on what was actually in the treaty.

Also...

A key pillar of the EU is the free movement of labour .

considering Ireland may well be heading into recession , and personally I think the NO vote will exacerbate this recession in Ireland , I think we may be glad of getting work , welfare etc. within the states of our European brethren.

It has been said that many people voting here have never lived through a recession and have not had to emigrate before so we should bear this in mind before we start advancing the idea that our fellow Europeans shouldn't have access to jobs and welfare in Ireland.

Gollem.

LostinBlanch

Much as I disagree with the OP in his views.

I did hear Pat Rabbite come out on RTE with his view that in "working class" consituencies this kind of thinking did have an effect. He mentioned the fact that building workers were displaced by foreign labour willing to work for the lesser wages offered. Something I have heard anecdotally for the last two years as well, Irish builders/plasterers/plumbers etc jobs getting taken over by Poles etc.

Of course it's not their fault, it's the fact that the government couldn't give a fiddlers about local agreements between unions and employers in different trades and then encouraged (or didn't discourage) those same employers to push wages in those sectors down by hiring in foreign labour. The rogue employers should have been targetted. This is something Rabbite mentioned a couple of years ago and was shot down for saying.

But looking back on it, it he was right, even though no one may have wanted to acknowledge it at the time.

It's difficult to keep wage consensus going when one party (the government) is conspiring with another (employers) to undermine the other party (the unions). When things contract, someone always gets squeezed. So why be surprised when they take their chance to squeeze back?

BTW, before anyone askes I'm neither a labour voter or a member of a union.

menoscemo

gollem_1975 wrote: »

I would not at all be suprised if immigration played a part in peoples decision to vote No.

I have heard it argued that it was a major issue with regard to the rejection by the French and Dutch of the EU constitution plebiscite.

It may also explain why an area with a high level of immigrants such as Dublin west had a higher proportion of No votes than Dublin south and Dun Laoghaire.

if this is the case then its just another example of people voting No not on what was actually in the treaty.

Also...

A key pillar of the EU is the free movement of labour .

considering Ireland may well be heading into recession , and personally I think the NO vote will exacerbate this recession in Ireland , I think we may be glad of getting work , welfare etc. within the states of our European brethren.

It has been said that many people voting here have never lived through a recession and have not had to emigrate before so we should bear this in mind before we start advancing the idea that our fellow Europeans shouldn't have access to jobs and welfare in Ireland.

Gollem.

I actually put up some statistics in a previous thread in this form, from an Irish times poll. A very small % of potential no-voters quoted Immigration as a reason for voting no. They were allowwed to choose multiple reasons.

Probably a very small % did vote no for this (ignorant) reason

Then again some people voted Yes solely because Sinn Fein backed a No.

It proabably all evens itself out.

peasant

mumhaabu wrote: »

I never knew the EU was a race, and as I was trying to highlight in my post it is exactly this sort of attitude that is preventing the issue being discussed.

People calling you racist are wrong,

you are in fact a xenophobe (with racist tendencies)

gollem_1975

menoscemo wrote: »

I actually put up some statistics in a previous thread in this form, from an Irish times poll. A very small % of potential no-voters quoted Immigration as a reason for voting no. They were allowwed to choose multiple reasons.

Probably a very small % did vote no for this (ignorant) reason

Then again some people voted Yes solely because Sinn Fein backed a No.

It proabably all evens itself out.

I suppose that "because sinn fein are backing a no" was option in the irish times poll then?

If it was a sinn fein organised poll do you think anyone would say yes to the "because sinn fein are backing a no" option ?

genericgoon

Immigration may have been a fringe factor in the vote. But I think the general loss in the construction jobs would've been a much bigger factor. Although I do kind of agree on the paying Child benefit for children not living in Ireland. They probably should be getting the child benefit for those children from their native government. Although that would create problems if some stayed kids home and some came to Ireland.

menoscemo

gollem_1975 wrote: »

I suppose that "because sinn fein are backing a no" was option in the irish times poll then?

If it was a sinn fein organised poll do you think anyone would say yes to the "because sinn fein are backing a no" option ?

yes to first part

Don't understand second part

O'Morris

mumhaabu wrote: »

Immigration played a part in the No vote yesterday and its effects on Irish society.

I would agree although I don't think it was immigration itself so much as our ability to deal with that immigration that influenced people's decision to vote no. It certainly influenced mine. One of the things that's really annoyed me over the last few months is hearing politicians saying 'our hands are tied' anytime the question of restricting immigration is brought up. The Lisbon treaty proposed giving the EU more power over immigration policy and so it would have been more difficult for us to do anything to try to reduce it.

Immigration into Ireland is far too high and we're going need our government to take action to restrict it soon, not only to protect our workers at a time when jobs are scarce but also because most Irish people are concerned about the long-term cultural and social consequences of what's happening. A poll in the Irish Tribune found that 80% of the Irish people asked think that immigration should be restricted and 60% think that it's a threat to Irish culture.

Fast forward four years and now Ireland is now losing over 1,000 jobs a week and the dole queues are swelling big time.

I read that 90% of all the new jobs created since the start of the year have gone to non-Irish workers
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/labour_market/current/qnhs.pdf

"Non-Irish workers are tentatively estimated to have accounted for over 48,000 (90.0%) of the annual increase in employment and for 1,300 (14.9%) of theincrease in the number of unemployed persons."

sink wrote:

Sorry I don't agree with you and in fact find your view abhorrent to peaceful international society. I am sure most people would share my view on that,

menoscemo wrote:

I voted no and completely disagree with you.
I find your post racist.

I find those comments ironic considering that those are just those kinds of over-the-top responses predicted whenever the subject of immigration is discussed.

I think mumhaabu expressed a very valid opinion, an opinion shared by a large section of the Irish population. I can't see anything racist about what he's said as most of the immigrants coming to Ireland are the same race as ourselves.

I think it's a pity that you find those views racist. If a poll were taken I think most Irish people would hold a different view.

menoscemo

"Irish people should not face competition for the dwindling supply of jobs from non-nationals imo"

This quote is from the OP Drivel.
Why not? Are non-nationals not entitled to apply for jobs? Surely it is up to the employer to decide who they employ?
So do you want to force all non-natioanls onto the social? I think not, becuase then you would be complaining that they are scrounging off our economy....so then the only solution would be to send them all home right?
This is the logical conclusion to the OP's argument therefore it is a pile of racist crap.

irish_bob

it is dificult to pass a referendum like lisbon when things are getting tight
there is a lack of a feel good vibe in the air and people are in bad humour, they irrationally lash out and look for a scapegoat , there were people on the radio talking this morning about why they voted no , not one of the reasons given had any relevance to the treaty itelf, one speaker was a farmer in the west of ireland who said no one cared about the man with only a few cows now
another speaker said this country was too expensive , another speaker said they couldnt get a house
if i listend long enough , im pretty sure i would have heard some one say they voted no because there husband was crap in bed
many saw a no vote as being a victimless crime , they were not specifically rejecting fianna fail or the other main parties
they were in reality shooting themselves in the foot but when people are both scared and frustrated at more personal every day practical issues , they often make stupid descisions on matters like an exotic far removed european referendum

as i said in other posts , there were only a tiny tiny number of tru believers on the no side

Mena

mumhaabu wrote: »

Immigration played a part in the No vote yesterday and its effects on Irish society. Economic Migration into Ireland since the EU admitted ten new countries on May 1st 2004 has changed the entire fabric of Irish society. Almost 10% of people in Ireland are non-national and this change in such a short period of time has taken Irish people a lot of getting used to.

The fact of the matter is Fianna Fail lied through their teeth during Nice 2 and said there would be no influx of workers into Ireland, yet there was; as Ireland and the UK were the only two countries out of the original 15 to allow unrestricted access to our labour markets. Fast forward four years and now Ireland is now losing over 1,000 jobs a week and the dole queues are swelling big time.

Irish people should not face competition for the dwindling supply of jobs from non-nationals imo, the fact of the matter is that the prolonged presence of economic migrants in Ireland is hurting our domestic economy, by the strain it is now putting on our Welfare system as there are more people here than ever before and less jobs to sustain them. I for one hate to see Irish people having to Emigrate out of Ireland as the state jobs and training agency FÁS are now encouraging people to do. This is a farcical situation where the natives are forced to emigrate because EU migrant workers are allowed to come in and undercut Irish workers causing a downward race to the bottom.

Also the fact that EU workers are entitled to child benefits for their children in the country of origin is ludacris and this is a waste of Irish Taxpayers money. It is time Ireland restricted access to our Labour market as it is contracting and make it law that all employers must first give priority to Irish citizens over non-nationals. Ireland is facing severe recession and it is an obvious step to take.

The fact of the matter is that this played on alot of peoples minds from both sides of the divide and it got little or no attention as the liberal PC brigade will immediately label you a huge "racist" while at the same time criticising Irish people as being too lazy to work and being Anti-Irish.

my two-cents

What a load of crap. Meh, think I'll stop paying my 45k a year tax then as you obviously don't want it.

The only people worried about immigration are irrational xenophobes. If you can't see the massive need for immigration in this country you're blind.

If I and the rest of the people like me leave you'll be up **** creek faster than you think.

How is immigration the cause for loss of jobs here? If you hadn't notice the economyis facing quite a few challenges locally (and most everywhere else). I guess it's just easy to blame the immigrants (read: Blacks?).

With regards to changing the law in favour of favouring Irish nationals over others, that's already in place for non-eu nationals. If you want to tighten it more and include EU nationals how will you cope with all those Irish working all over Europe who'll probably then face the same treatment, being forced home?

Codswallop.

Kev_ps3

I would agree with the OP mumhaabu. We have allowed far too many foreigners into this small Island. The law of open boarders is one big reason why I think we should leave the EU asap and send all those Poles back.
And btw, those posters who said that he was racist dont know the meaning of the word. Look it up, being opposed to mass immigration does not make you a racist.

O'Morris

menoscemo wrote: »

This quote is from the OP Drivel.
Why not? Are non-nationals not entitled to apply for jobs? Surely it is up to the employer to decide who they employ?
So do you want to force all non-natioanls onto the social? I think not, becuase then you would be complaining that they are scrounging off our economy....so then the only solution would be to send them all home right?
This is the logical conclusion to the OP's argument therefore it is a pile of racist crap.

I find it regrettable that people can react so sensitively and so emotionally to such an important issue. We need to think very seriously and very rationally about the future of our immigration policy and so using words like 'racist' when the issue being discussed has nothing to do with race is not likely to lead to a mature debate on the subject. If I was a moderator I might be inclined to remind people of this.

Mena wrote:

If you can't see the massive need for immigration in this country you're blind.

Please tell me you've seen the latest unemployment figures?

How is immigration the cause for loss of jobs here?

I don't think anyone said it's the cause of job losses. Immigrants take jobs that could just as easily be filled by native Irish workers, and so in a time of job scarcity such as we have now, immigration is likely to lead to higher unemployment among the native workers who would otherwise be able to fill the jobs filled by the immigrants.

If you want to tighten it more and include EU nationals how will you cope with all those Irish working all over Europe who'll probably then face the same treatment, being forced home?

Do you realise that most other EU countries still have restrictions on immigration from eastern Europe? We can't we impose the same restrictions?

leeroybrown

I wouldn't agree with the OP's opinions on migrant workers but I do think that immigration was probably one of a large number of smaller issues that made up the No vote.

Also, while the OP does appear to be trying to make a rational argument, quite a few other posters seem to think that merely crying racist automatically allows them to 'win' without need for reasoned debate.

O'Morris

leeroybrown wrote: »

Also, while the OP does appear to be trying to make a rational argument, quite a few other posters seem to think that merely crying racist automatically allows them to 'win' without need for reasoned debate.

It would be interesting to see if any of the moderators express an opinion on the overuse of the word in discussions such as these. I consider use of the word insulting and completely inappropriate in the context.

Neamhshuntasach

Immigration is essential to a country's economy but it needs to be controlled. Ireland went from having very little non nationals to having a huge influx of them in a very short time. I don't think Irish people are truely racist in the true sense of racism as displayed in other countries around the world past and present. It was just that we were a country still young in it's freedom and part of our country is still occupied and we were still going through a conflict or just wrapping one up. It was just too much too soon in a short space of time. As a nation i don't think we are very trusting of non nationals coming to our shore as it is hidden in our mind set regardless of how Republican or nationalist you are.

Anyways i didn't vote no because immigration.

mickoneill30

mumhaabu wrote: »

It is time Ireland restricted access to our Labour market as it is contracting and make it law that all employers must first give priority to Irish citizens over non-nationals. Ireland is facing severe recession and it is an obvious step to take.

Where were you over the last few years when companies in Ireland couldn't get enough people? It's OK to hire people and tax them when times are good but when times are bad we should be discriminating against them by where they come from?

As somebody who has conducted many interviews I'll take the best person qualified for the job thanks. I'm not going to hire somebody based on where they're from. I'm going to hire somebody based on how well they can do the job. If that person is French, Polish, Japanese, Irish, English or Martian I don't care. Companies don't do well by bypassing the best candidates because of country of origin or colour. They're there to make money. And if you start putting restrictions on who they can hire I'd be pretty sure you'd start to see a lot of American companies move out of Ireland. A lot of them come here because of the different nationalities they can employ easily.

As somebody who's worked abroad I've seen it from the other angle. I didn't give a crap when the locals were complaining about all the Irish and English that were being hired. I looked at it the same way. If the locals were good enough, they would have been hired instead of us.

latenia

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

Ireland went from having very little non nationals to having a huge influx of them in a very short time.

Bleedin' Pygmies coming here taking our jobs.

DenMan

The OP really has made some very interesting points. It is very narrow minded and a bit disrespectful to shoot someone down, calling them rascist when they have taken the time to prepare this thread. First of all Ireland as a nation cannot sustain the current influx of foreign nationals to the state. Ireland really has only been standing on it's own two feet for now for the past 15 years. When times are good (which they have been for 10-15 years) everybody is happy, the Celtic Tiger really succeeded. However when things are starting looking to bleak people will respond. My parents generation would have lived in bad times (70's and 80's) where emmigration to Canada and Australia was really in overdrive. They were actally encouarging people to emigrate to Australia by paying them to do so.

My point is until people have actually lived through a recession they cannot really comprehend it. If people decide to stand up and take notice of the changing situation they are presumed by others to be rascist. If unskilled migrants are taking Irish jobs now how are we going to feel when Romanians, Russians, Bulgarians, Maltese, Cretian, Hungarian etc decide to come over and fill the void left behind by the departing Polish workers. Let's not forget Polish people came to Ireland because of the cultural/historical sililarities between the two nations. Catholism playing a very big part in Polish peoples minds coming here. When they do decide to go home the above mentioned countries people will come to Ireland and I will assure it will not be for cultural similarities.

This is a testing phase if you will. Unskilled workeres coming to Ireland for work. What will happen in the near future when skilled workers who have learned the language (which is being tought to them by Irish people, I myself have been a T.EF.L. teacher)come here. Architects, Accountants, Senior Management Positions, Science positions (including research) and teaching/lecturing positions will all be contested by all people, Irish obviously included. Then people will seriously start to take notice. That is why Ireland voted No. You simply cannot hand control of the state over to a council who will be more interested in appeasing all 500 million residents rather than a small nation with less than 1% of the entire population. People think long term, 10-20 years down the line, a generation or so into the future not a quick fix.

Read the posts by non Irish people thanking the Irish people for voting no. Let's not forget the Irish Government works for us. The were democratically elected by the Irish people to represent their interests both at home and abroad. So therefore in a democratically elected goverment what is their solution - to hand control of the state over to an international council. Do people not see a connection in Europe? If it where down to Europe they would have all governments and parliaments ratify The Lisbon Treaty without giving the people the voice to make the decisions....oh hang on a minute that's exactly what they are doing right now!!! Fortunately our courts require a reforendum in order to amend our constitution.

I am returning to full time eduaction in Sept of this year because in the next 4-5 years I will be in a much better position than I am now. Thinking in working in Film/TV in either Spain or Dubai once I graduate. By the way I did vote No and all the scare mongering in the world did not have any influence on my decision. Thank you for reading this.

mickoneill30

DenMan wrote: »

This is a testing phase if you will. Unskilled workeres coming to Ireland for work. What will happen in the near future when skilled workers who have learned the language (which is being tought to them by Irish people, I myself have been a T.EF.L. teacher)come here. Architects, Accountants, Senior Management Positions, Science positions (including research) and teaching/lecturing positions will all be contested by all people, Irish obviously included. Then people will seriously start to take notice. That is why Ireland voted No.

Skilled migrants have been coming here for the last 10 years. I would have thought they were the majority. The celtic tiger didn't happen because of a boom in unskilled positions.

O'Morris

mickoneill30 wrote: »

It's OK to hire people and tax them when times are good but when times are bad we should be discriminating against them by where they come from?

It's not discrimination. Treating a non-citizen with less priveliges than you treat our own citizens is not discrimination. It's not discrimination when we don't allow foreigners to vote in our elections.

I'm not going to hire somebody based on where they're from.

And nobody would expect you to. As an employer you have every right to hire the best person for the job.

As a country however we're under no obligation to provide you with an endless supply of labour. You make do with what's available. There are competing interests that we need to balance.

If that person is French, Polish, Japanese, Irish, English or Martian I don't care.

So do you think we should have a completely open jobs market where anyone in the world should be allowed to apply for any available jobs in this country? Or can you understand why might that might cause problems?

And if you do support a completely open market for labour would you also support the same open market for goods and services?

mickoneill30

O'Morris wrote: »

It's not discrimination. Treating a non-citizen with less priveliges than you treat our own citizens is not discrimination. It's not discrimination when we don't allow foreigners to vote in our elections.

I was talking about people who have the right to work here.
The op was talking about EU workers wasnt he? Or is he talking about people from outside of the EU? Are non EU people coming over here in great numbers?
When he said that Irish people should get priority over non nationals I presumed he meant Irish should get priority over French / UK / Polish etc.

I know the Lisbon treaty had nothing to do with either but as he said people voted no because of immigration I'd presume he meant immigration from Europe.

O'Morris wrote: »

As a country however we're under no obligation to provide you with an endless supply of labour. You make do with what's available. There are competing interests that we need to balance.

Eh that's the point. If Irish / Europeans are available why only make do with just Irish. Take the best. If that's Irish, great.

O'Morris wrote: »

So do you think we should have a completely open jobs market where anyone in the world should be allowed to apply for any available jobs in this country?

The op wasn't talking about a completely open market. He was talking about restricting what we have.

DenMan

I agree completely with you but from a European perspective skilled migrants back then where in a minority and if they were European were not EU members at that time. Now it much different with the enlargement of the EU, also a different time. With great booms also comes a crunch, a recession if you will. Ireland really has benefited from skilled migrants in the past but now with the scale of skilled/unskilled migrants it is a completely different ball game.

I lived and worked in Malta which is more North/North East African than European. They now have a huge problem with Libyan nationals in their country, similar to the Roma here. First the Libyan people landed by boat by accident thinking it was Italy and now they are flying in. If a small nation like that has problems you can only imagine what affect it could have on other countries. Malta only recently having become a member of the EU. The Maltese President objected wanting to send them all home and he was immediately shot down by the EU. And Libya is not even part of the European Union. Going to be very interesting times ahead here in Ireland

gurramok

If they say working class areas tended to vote no, it's a bit of a co-incidence as its that part of the electorate who are most affected by immigration and the competition for jobs.(so far)

I'd say its a factor since Nice. When the competition for jobs starts affecting middle classes and the immune public sector, they will begin to know what its like.

Now as we're into a recession, the immigrants do become scapegoats and i think their huge numbers in such a short time(talking about EU migrants as they are far the biggest) would cause resentment in some quarters to persuade some voters to vote no.

O'Morris

mickoneill30 wrote: »

I was talking about people who have the right to work here.

Yes, but I don't think it would be correct to say that removing their right to work here would constitute discrimination. I don't think it's discrimination to deny the citizens of a foreign country a privilege that would normally only apply to your own citizens. If we were going to restrict it to a certain group of Irish citizens then that would be discrimination.

aliqueenb

yeah immigration did play a part in the racist irish minds

DenMan

aliqueenb wrote: »

yeah immigration did play a part in the racist irish minds

I wouldn't say racism played any part in the Irish voters decision to reject the Lisbon Treaty. Ireland has campaigned for a more integrated and democratic Europe which it is the people who build a better Europe.

Europe as a bloc has to address many issues that the Irish people feel has not been discussed. What Nations leader advises the people to vote NO if they are unsure about the Treaty.

The co-operation and friendship between members of the European Union needs to be addressed. Ireland for one has been at the forefront of promoting these changes. Now it is time to go about implementing those policies in a fair and unified way. Not forcing them upon people in a manner in which they do not understand or comprehend the decisions being made on their behalf. One Europe, one voice. The people, all 500 million of us not a select few on an international council not elected by the public but rather their parliaments.

You should read The Lisbon Treaty and think of all of the possible scenarios that could arise as a result of it. Words can have many meanings and could also be implemented in so many different ways and interpreted differently by those who have the power to make those changes. Think before you blink or look before you leap. Very appropriate words.

Sgt Hartman

mumhaabu wrote: »

Immigration played a part in the No vote yesterday and its effects on Irish society. Economic Migration into Ireland since the EU admitted ten new countries on May 1st 2004 has changed the entire fabric of Irish society. Almost 10% of people in Ireland are non-national and this change in such a short period of time has taken Irish people a lot of getting used to.

The fact of the matter is Fianna Fail lied through their teeth during Nice 2 and said there would be no influx of workers into Ireland, yet there was; as Ireland and the UK were the only two countries out of the original 15 to allow unrestricted access to our labour markets. Fast forward four years and now Ireland is now losing over 1,000 jobs a week and the dole queues are swelling big time.

Irish people should not face competition for the dwindling supply of jobs from non-nationals imo, the fact of the matter is that the prolonged presence of economic migrants in Ireland is hurting our domestic economy, by the strain it is now putting on our Welfare system as there are more people here than ever before and less jobs to sustain them. I for one hate to see Irish people having to Emigrate out of Ireland as the state jobs and training agency FÁS are now encouraging people to do. This is a farcical situation where the natives are forced to emigrate because EU migrant workers are allowed to come in and undercut Irish workers causing a downward race to the bottom.

Also the fact that EU workers are entitled to child benefits for their children in the country of origin is ludacris and this is a waste of Irish Taxpayers money. It is time Ireland restricted access to our Labour market as it is contracting and make it law that all employers must first give priority to Irish citizens over non-nationals. Ireland is facing severe recession and it is an obvious step to take.

The fact of the matter is that this played on alot of peoples minds from both sides of the divide and it got little or no attention as the liberal PC brigade will immediately label you a huge "racist" while at the same time criticising Irish people as being too lazy to work and being Anti-Irish.

my two-cents

I agree with the OP in that we have taken in far too many people far too quickly. We have learned nothing from other countries such as Britain, Sweden, France and Holland. When our economy was at it's peak we all wallowed in the good times and we were too short-sighted to learn or even care about the future consequences of uncontrolled immigration. Live for today, f**k the future. People just kept tip-toeing around the subject and anyone who dared question it were immediately shot down as "filthy ignorant narrow-minded racists".

The fact of the matter is that this played on alot of peoples minds from both sides of the divide and it got little or no attention as the liberal PC brigade will immediately label you a huge "racist" while at the same time criticising Irish people as being too lazy to work and being Anti-Irish.

Looks like the above statement from the OP has already been proven true from what I've seen in some of the posts so far.
:rolleyes:

irish_bob

gurramok wrote: »

If they say working class areas tended to vote no, it's a bit of a co-incidence as its that part of the electorate who are most affected by immigration and the competition for jobs.(so far)

I'd say its a factor since Nice. When the competition for jobs starts affecting middle classes and the immune public sector, they will begin to know what its like.

Now as we're into a recession, the immigrants do become scapegoats and i think their huge numbers in such a short time(talking about EU migrants as they are far the biggest) would cause resentment in some quarters to persuade some voters to vote no.

apart from nurses and doctors , there are more or less no foreigners in the public service , the surplus to requirement pen pushers who wages could be spent on beds , there all white union backed irish

nesf

leeroybrown wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with the OP's opinions on migrant workers but I do think that immigration was probably one of a large number of smaller issues that made up the No vote.

Exactly. Anyone arguing that it didn't really isn't in touch with the mood in some parts of the country. The immigration issue was there in the general election, was there in this referendum and is very likely to still be around come the local elections next year. I don't personally subscribe to it but it's a fairly common reaction internationally for some groups within a country to react badly to a strong influx of foreign workers.

ionix5891

i find this thread disgusting, what have the Irish become?

nesf

ionix5891 wrote: »

i find this thread disgusting, what have the Irish become?

Human.

ionix5891

nesf wrote: »

Human.

sigh

less human i would say


http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~el6/presentations/Irish_Americans_S2_WS2003/foto/Image7.gif


for a nation we have short memory



so now we gonna play the "blame the immigrants" card?


how very Nazi of us, oh wait i forgot Sein Fein got what they wanted yesterday, whats next immigrants have to wear a yellow star?

(p.s. "they" already are required to carry biometric GNIB ID green plastic cards)


wasn't it the construction industry not too long ago who were trying to get any able bodied man to work at lowest price possible, and now that things are not doing so well they scream "they took our jobs"

nesf

ionix5891 wrote: »

sigh

less human i would say


http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~el6/presentations/Irish_Americans_S2_WS2003/foto/Image7.gif


for a nation we have short memory



so now we gonna play the "blame the immigrants" card?


how very Nazi of us, oh wait i forgot Sein Fein got what they wanted yesterday, whats next immigrants have to wear a yellow star?

(p.s. "they" already are required to carry biometric GBIB ID green plastic cards)


wasn't it the construction industry not too long ago who were trying to get any able bodied man to work at lowest price possible, and now that things are not doing so well they scream "they took our jobs"

But xenophobia and "us versus them" mentalities are just parts of human nature. They aren't pretty but denying they exist or merely dismissing the concern completely isn't productive. Saying "What has Ireland become?" just marginalises people who voted because of this issue rather than trying to engage with them and trying to convince them to look at it from a different perspective.

I find xenophobia as irritating as the next arrogant elitist but it doesn't mean it's not something that we should ignore. To do so will just further reinforce it and cause it to become even more entrenched in some areas.

ircoha

Sgt Hartman wrote: »

I agree with the OP in that we have taken in far too many people far too quickly. We have learned nothing from other countries such as Britain, Sweden, France and Holland. When our economy was at it's peak we all wallowed in the good times and we were too short-sighted to learn or even care about the future consequences of uncontrolled immigration. Live for today, f**k the future. People just kept tip-toeing around the subject and anyone who dared question it were immediately shot down as "filthy ignorant narrow-minded racists".



Looks like the above statement from the OP has already been proven true from what I've seen in some of the posts so far.
:rolleyes:

Quality piece IMO.
Would just add the Turkish problem in Germany to the list.


While the choice of language by the OP might allow the harsh criticism leveled at him pass as fair comment, it shows the difficulty in discussing certain issues in Ireland.
For example
How did we get to the situation in Balbriggan last September where 100 or so children of African origin were looking for schooling?

I know many of them were born in Ireland and therefore made Irish Citizens of the parents.
How can we let such a ghetto-like environment develop?
If you express a concern about an obvious failure of public policy you are branded a racist/xenophobe.

ionix5891

nesf wrote: »

Saying "What has Ireland become?" just marginalises people who voted because of this issue rather than trying to engage with them and trying to convince them to look at it from a different perspective. .

You are right

I was trained as an engineer, so first things you do is ask questions (which i did) and define the problem before deciding on how to approach the issue

and this racist crap has to be addressed in this country

nesf wrote: »

But xenophobia and "us versus them" mentalities are just parts of human nature..

xenophobia. theres plenty of that on this site, just look here for an example
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56245854&postcount=154

It might be part of our nature but its a dangerous part, the part that starts wars and conflict, if you don't address it early well just look at the European history before EU was formed... or look no further than the north of this island...

If you express a concern about an obvious failure of public policy you are branded a racist/xenophobe.

How did we get to the situation in Balbriggan last September where 100 or so children of African origin were looking for schooling?

would it be a "situation" if they weren't of "african" origin but where white? there are plenty of kids in this country in overcrowded classrooms is that not a bigger "situation"


.

JohnMc1

It didn't take long for the bleeding heart PC sell-out liberals t come on her and shout the race card.

The thread starter is correct. I agree Irish taxpayers shouldn't be paying child support for children not in the country. It leaves our system open for abuse. How do we know these children exist or not?

I feel they should crack down on the foreign cars because they are not designed for our driving systems [ofcourse the do gooders were talking about changing it to accomodate the foreigners] plus they are not state taxed and they do not have Irish insurance.

As far as Immigration numbers go. The Irish Gov't should of been smart [which they are not and neither are the sheeple that vote them in time and again] they would of said "We want this many foreign laborers and that's it" and stood their ground. Instead they let every Tom,Dick and Harry in the country and now are at risk of overpopulation and crime is at an all time high here. And most of EEs are just stepping off the plane and walking right into the welfare office signing up for every social benefit in the country.

Basically enjoy your country while you still have it because it won't be for much longer. In a few years Ireland will be called something else and the Irish will cease to exist. And the Irish have no one to blame but themselves.

ircoha

ionix5891 wrote: »

You are right

I was trained as an engineer, so first things you do is ask questions (which i did) and define the problem before deciding on how to approach the issue

and this racist crap has to be addressed in this country



xenophobia. theres plenty of that on this site, just look here for an example
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56245854&postcount=154

It might be part of our nature but its a dangerous part, the part that starts wars and conflict, if you don't address it early well just look at the European history before EU was formed... or look no further than the north of this island...





would it be a "situation" if they weren't of "african" origin but where white? there are plenty of kids in this country in overcrowded classrooms is that not a bigger "situation"


.

Of course it is but it can be discussed without the racist accusation being leveled to stop the discussion. That is the point I was trying to make : the racist card is being used to stifle legitimate debate: school underfunding/overcrowding: well sin sceil eile:)

ionix5891

ircoha wrote: »

Of course it is but it can be discussed without the racist accusation being leveled to stop the discussion. That is the point I was trying to make : the racist card is being used to stifle legitimate debate: school underfunding/overcrowding: well sin sceil eile:)

see how i came to the root issue without using racism? we both agree the education system could be improved, 100 "african" (they were born in Ireland they are Irish we settled this in the last referendum) kids is the least of the problems of this system

JohnMc1 wrote: »

As far as Immigration numbers go. The Irish Gov't should of been smart

ok lets kick everyone who wasnt born here out, should be interesting what happens to this country then

if you dont see the contribution most non-nationals made to the economy (and other aspects such as culture) then you shoud crawl out out of your conservative arm chair and look around

yes there are freeloaders and they should be dealt with, we have plenty of our own freeloaders living away their life on social welfare btw don't forget to mention them

scoey

I agree with the OP.

When a countries non national population shoots up from next to nothing to around 10% in a few years, people having an issue with that are not necessarily racist. Apparently concern for one's own culture/history/identity is racist. Apparently people thinking that Irish people should be entitled to more things in Ireland than non nationals is racist.

The idea that it is progressive and enlightened to have no respect for one's own culture, and that a country should show no preference towards it's own citizens, is pretty ridiculous to me.

Any time anyone tries to raise an issue like this, the usual stuff comes out. Cries of racism and reminders of all the Irish who went to America and were "welcomed in with open arms" etc. The idea that immigration into America and immigration into Ireland are identical is absurd and shows a pretty shockingly poor knowledge of the history of America. Not that it was all "open arms" and handouts anyway in America and Britain, etc.

There seems to me to be a big group in Ireland, who have some sort of inferiority complex and think we owe the world a big debt of gratitude for favours supposedly received in the past. Vote yes because "the E.U has been good to us" or "we owe the E.U a debt of gratitude". "The only reason Ireland has any money is because of E.U handouts". I'm sure it helped, but I'm sure there's more to Ireland's economic success than 60 billion euro's received(mostly for the C.A.P) over the course of 30 years, and 20billion given back.

Don't dare have a problem with uncontrolled high levels of immigration or you're a racist and don't forget all those Irish people who emigrated into wonderfully accepting countries in the past.

To be honest, I think countries with smaller populations need tougher immigration rules than bigger ones, as it takes a much smaller amount of immigrants to become a large percentage of the society and completely change the culture. But, hey ho, whatever. Irish culture, who cares about that? You were born in Ireland, big deal, that should entitle you to nothing more in Ireland than someone from anywhere else gets. If you disagree you are a :a racist or b:a nazi, both of which have been thrown around in this thread already.

nesf

JohnMc1 wrote: »

The thread starter is correct. I agree Irish taxpayers shouldn't be paying child support for children not in the country.

Would you have a problem with a foreign national family, where the father and/or mother worked getting the normal child support that we Irish get?


Personally, as far as they are working and paying their way in terms of tax they are entitled to all the benefits that Irish people get. I'd have far less sympathy patience for people sponging off the system, but that's not a foreign nation thing, I have as much contempt for Irish people who do it.