Sold car, new owner did tax or register it, now I have to go to court!

Bally8

Warning- long post!

Im very flustered and stressed right now so I'll do my best to be clear.

I bought a new car in February, insured it, brought it home and that evening my neighbour called round and said if I wanted to sell my old car her boyfriend knew someone who would buy it. I signed the change of ownership form and gave her the keys. When I came home from my course the following night, car was gone and cash had been given to my boyfriend. I was actually very happy as it was such a straightforward process. I was a bit worried that I didnt even know the new owners name and didnt get a chance to take my insurance disk out but overall I was just happy to have the car sold.

A few weeks later I got a tax reminder from tax office, I sent the form back to them saying I had sold it and thought nothing more.

Then in May I got a reminder from the county council saying that the car had been parked in Limerick without tax and I had to pay a 60 euro fine on it. I rang them to explain that I had sold the car in February and they said to call Shannon. Called Shannon and was informed that the car had been registered on 7th May (fine was issued on 14th April) and therefore I was liable for the fine. I was so mad, went into neighbour and asked her for new owners name and address, she woudnt give it to me but said she would get it sorted. A few days later she said it was paid and I stupidly believed her.

Yesterday I got a letter to say my 56 days were up and next thing would be court. Im freaking out. I have never been near a court and cant believe this is happening to me. Rang the council, they said ring Shannon, Rang shannon, they said go to guards, went to guards, they said call council. As you can see I getting nowhere. I didnt sleep a wink last night. I cant believe I am going to have to go to court about this, the lady in the council said that the judge can only go on the fact that the car was registered on 7th May and I will probably have to pay a minimum of 300 - thats exactly what I sold the bloody car for!!

Any advice would be appreciated

Sorry for the epic post

vengeance52

well if they didnt register the car, AFAIK you are liable for the fine. Go to your neighbour as get the name of the person who ya sold the car too. also get in touch with a solicitor.

Guy:Incognito

And for future reference, never give the vlc to the person (or anyone else) you sell a car too. ALWAYS send it off yourself.

SV

Stekelly wrote: »

And for future reference, never give the vlc to the person (or anyone else) you sell a car too. ALWAYS send it off yourself.

Exactly..

If you don't send it off yourself they could get away with anything they want in the car and you'd be reported for it if they got the reg =/

Bally8

I know I've learned a BIG lesson from this. Was way way too trusting.

As for asking my neighbour for the buyers address- I did and she just fed me lie after lie.

Have I no comback on this?

-Chris-

I'd go to court and plead my case. The new owner has A LOT of responsibility in this. Your only mistake is to give them the VLC and trust that they'll process it rather than processing it.

- They've driven untaxed.
- They've refused to pay a parking fine (which you made them aware of through your neighbour AND which they probably found on their windscreen anyway).
- They've "forgotten" to transfer the ownership of a car they've driven for the past ages. - And as far as I understand it, when they did do the change of ownership, they used the wrong date (coincidentally using a date that was AFTER the fine was issued).

I'd say if you lay that all out infront of a judge and plead that you were ignorant of the proper way to change ownership (hardly a major offence), there'll be a summons issued for the new owner pretty quick-smart.

Stephen

I'm no legal expert but I think if you can show that you bought the new car (i.e. show that its registered in your name) before these offences and explain that you sold the car before them you'll probably be fine. Shannon usually takes ages to process change of ownership forms anyway. Having the name/address of the new owner would be useful though.

Fey!

OP; is there any chance that the new owner sent in the paperwork and it took Shannon ages to put it through? (Personally, I think that it's unlikely, as the civil servants in Shannon are usually fairly efficient, but you may need to keep it in mind).

As someone else said, if it goes to court, bring all of the paperwork for your new car, including insurance, to try to argue your case. However, the council may argue that it was ultimately your responsibility to ensure that the car was properly registered.

If you've only contacted the council by phone, try writing an appeal to them; I know from experience that to get anything done requires something in writing.

Best of luck with it.

Bally8

Thanks for responses- Im feeling a bit better about it now.

I would be a bit skeptical about the delay theory in Shannon though because if this was the case and if the person who bought the car was honest, wouldnt they then pay the fine? I think I'm dealing with someone who thinks they will just get away with it.

I know Im very niave but I cant believe there are people out there who do things like this and expect others to pick up the pieces. I know its not personal but I'm taking it very much to heart.

Luckily my sister is a solicitor so I called her and she said she will help me fight it.

biko

Bally8 wrote: »

As for asking my neighbour for the buyers address- I did and she just fed me lie after lie.

What do you mean? Why would she lie?
Tell her you want the bf number and ring him yourself.

Bally8

She is friends with the girl who bought it. She said she called her yesterday and f**ked her out of it- pretending to be me. Came up with this long story about how she told the girl I was out of the country at the time of the fine and then told the girl (while still pretending to be me apparently) that she would drop up the letter from the council that evening.

I knew she was filling me with bull when she was telling me all this but I just let it go and said that I would photocopy the letter and she could take it to her.

The story is just crazy and all muddled up- how could she- pretending to be me- drop up a letter- she is friends with this girl- wouldnt she realise that my neighbour was in fact my neighbour when she dropped off the letter and not me?

I think they came up with the story together to get me off their backs and didnt really think out the details.

I have lived next to my neighbour for 7 years and its just nuts that she wont even answer the question 'who did you sell my car to?'

Steve

I'd suggest contacting the guard who issued the summons but I guess this was issued by the council?

Best bet is talk to a solicitor, won't cost much for a consultation and, after all, this sorta stuff is what they do.

Is your boyfriend willing to go to court with you as a witness?

As for "the Judge has to go by the date of registration" comment??? it's bullshit, the judge will decide based on the evidence and testimony.

As was said gather up any paperwork you have for the time - if you lodged the money you got, bring a bank statement.

Most of all - stop worrying about it, you'll be fine.

JHMEG

The neighbour gave you the money and you gave her the key, so the contract is between ye two, and treat it that way. Tell her that unless she sorts it out (ie get new owner - whoever it is, it might actually be her - to appear in court and explain) that you will take action against her in the small claims court.

Scottie99

When you signed the transfer of ownership did you date it? I think there is a space on the form. Maybe Shannon MIGHT give you a copy for your case.

Good Luck

bryanmurr

Have you got any proof of sale? If you do bring it to court with you, and it was your responsibility to send off the change of ownership.

Saruman

OP Im assuming you transferred your existing insurance from the old car to the new car. Ask your unsurance company to provide a record of this to show you transferred insurance to your new car (which you also have proof of). It just shows again that the car was no longer in use by you.

Also you know the date the car was im Limerick, can you prove you were elsewhere?

One other thing, you said you sent a letter to the Licensing authority that you had sole the car, i assume this was before the incident so see if they have a record of that communication.

Seth Brundle

bryanmurr wrote: »

Have you got any proof of sale? If you do bring it to court with you, and it was your responsibility to send off the change of ownership.

Did you lodge the money from the sale into your account? This would help demonstrate that you sold the car when you say that you did.

Duckjob

I would also take yourself down to your local garda station with any proof or even evidence of sale that you have and get on record that you claim you sold the car on the specified date.

Given that the buyer sounds a bit dodgy, you don't want to get pursued for more serious offences like dangerous driving / drink driving etc.

When selling a car always:
1) Keep the VLC to send in yourself
2) Before sending, take a photocopy with all details filled in. That way if it does get lost you have a copy to lodge with the guards to cover yourself.

Esel

The date of the registration change that Shannon record is the date stated on the form.

OP: Did you sign and date the form before you handed it over? Get a copy from Shannon and bring it to court.

Bally8

Thanks for all the advice guys. Im beginning to feel very confident I will be able to fight this. I particularly like taking the approach with my neighbour that I gave the keys and vlc to her boyfriend and therefore he is the one I will have to go after for the money. Because they are just standing by and letting me go through this sh*t Im determined to make them feel as uncomfortable about it all as I do. I mean if I was the one who sold their car to my friend I would be mortified that they didnt pay and would have given the fine money over myself. But obviously Im dealing with a different kind of person here.

Im beginning to think I very very stupidly just signed the vlc and didnt date it- Im not certain but that might be a possibility. Im so stupid I know but I trusted my neighbour and thought nothing like this would happen. I got cash for the car and used it to pay for my tax on my new car in the tax office so I have no record of the money being handed over!

On a more positive note- the tax office is sending me an affidavid form for me and my solicitor to sign to say I sold the car on 13th February. This should help me in court if the case goes there. My solicitor is confident that if I write a letter to the council, explaining all the details and showing them copies of my transfer of insurance, my timetable for work (Im a teacher and was in class in front of student at the time the fine was issued) and stating that my boyfriend and neighbours were all witnesses to the sale, the case might never make it to court.

Fingers crossed. Failing that I have a friend who knows a guard who is willing to go and have a talk with the new owner (if he can find her). Maybe that might encourage her to contact council and sort all this out.

Thanks again for advice, ye all really calmed me down

CyberGhost

You should win, but still sucks that you have to waste time and money on it.

For the future, like everyone said...

Keep the VLC, date it and time it, send it yourself, keep a scanned copy.
I also print a sales agreement form(car description, time of sale, price, sold as seen, etc...) and make the buyer sign it, and I sign it too. One copy goes to him and I keep one for myself.

Bally8

Fantastic news!!! I rang Limerick City Council again this morning. The girl told me to send her an email appealing the fine and setting out everything I had told her. She also told me that the new owner had rang in to appeal the fine on the same date it was issued even though she now claims not to be the owner till 7th May. Some cock and bull story about the vlc (again more lies). The girl in the office said obviously new owner has totally hung herself here. Why would she appeal a fine on a car she claims not to own?

Sent a very long email to her, she showed it to her supervisor and she called me back to say they are happy that I am not at fault here and they now intend to pursue the new owner.

Im delighted. Asked her to put that in writing for me just in case.

I just want to thank everyone who supported me these last few days and thanks for all the advice. I have learnt a huge lesson from this

Anita

Steve

Great news!:)

CyberGhost

Haha, very happy for ya! I hate cheap lying scum like that.

I wouldn't even say hello to that neighbor anymore if I was you.

Beta Ray Bill

Well done

You were very lucky

Biro

CyberGhost wrote: »

Haha, very happy for ya! I hate cheap lying scum like that.

I wouldn't even say hello to that neighbor anymore if I was you.

I'd do the opposite! Big smile and wave at her, "Hello!". It'll wreck her head!

Bally8

She is moving in two weeks time so thank god I wont have to face her anymore. Im torn between ignoring her or being very friendly. I'll just avoid her for now anyway.

Zube

Bally8 wrote: »

She also told me that the new owner had rang in to appeal the fine on the same date it was issued even though she now claims not to be the owner till 7th May.

Ha ha! Muppet.

Glad this had a happy ending for you.

galwaytt

pardon my french, but why not RTFM ??

It says, clearly, on the cert, for new owner to sign, and seller to sign and submit the form to Shannon - so why did you hand over the cert?

I don't understand why people don't read the instructions, and then give out about the whys/wherefores, after...........

Unless the new owner owns up (:rolleyes: sic), then, legally, you're responsible for the car, and the fine. It's a very simple process..........

SV

galwaytt wrote: »

pardon my french, but why not RTFM ??

It says, clearly, on the cert, for new owner to sign, and seller to sign and submit the form to Shannon - so why did you hand over the cert?

I don't understand why people don't read the instructions, and then give out about the whys/wherefores, after...........

Unless the new owner owns up (:rolleyes: sic), then, legally, you're responsible for the car, and the fine. It's a very simple process..........

Haven't read the last few posts have you.