Question About Tarot Cards

johnsix

Given that a certain combination and of cards give a certain prediction/reading etc. for a certain person.
If you were to do two full readings for a person say 30 sec apart wouldn't you get the same combination and order of cards?
Or similarly two decks at the same time or two readers at the same time.

Stoner

I'm no expert, but I'm 99% sure that the answer is no, no and no.

johnsix

Why though?
What changes in 30 seconds between readings or the 2 feet between readers?

Stoner

IMO just the whole random numbers element. If the same cards came up for the same people, it would prove that a person determines what cards are drawn,
so once again open to correction, whatever a card means at whatever time, combined with whatever a reader picks up at that different time will change.

different cards, with different meanings, combined with different times and different interpretations allow enough random parameters to leave the validity of the whole process up to the interpretation of any individual analysing the process. IMHO

johnsix

But if a certain order of cards predict or read a certain thing, shouldn't the prediction/reading of the same subject at the same give the same result every time?
Or do they give different results? What happens if the results are contradictory?

karynp

I have done readings for people who have gotten a reading done a half hour before at fairs by different readers and have been told by them the same cards came up. The difference is how its interpreted. In my opinion,resutls can be contradicted i believe,based on the readers frame of mind,ive done some readings and when a certain card appears the client flinches and says oh no,because its been read incorrectly and in a very negative way by the last reader. one time i had a health card come up and the girl started to cry,i told her it was simply a bad chest infection,due to the place she lived in,to go to the doctor and get it cleared up,the last reader had told her the card meant she had lung cancer!!! turns out my interpretation was right. Each card holds a very different meaning each time it is read,if you look on each card as say a headline,but you need to look inside for the full picture or story as to its real meaning.
Also for myself,when ive done a reading for myself and decided to ignore the cards appearing,for whatever reason,ive reshuffled and drawn the same cards again.
Ive no explanation for it.

Sapien

johnsix wrote: »

But if a certain order of cards predict or read a certain thing, shouldn't the prediction/reading of the same subject at the same give the same result every time?
Or do they give different results? What happens if the results are contradictory?

How much do you know about tarot reading and interpretation? Have you any knowledge of what kinds of things different cards signify, or what kinds of advice can be drawn from a reading? Do you understand the different ways in which tarot are used, or the different ideas about their capacities?

johnsix

Sapien wrote: »

How much do you know about tarot reading and interpretation? Have you any knowledge of what kinds of things different cards signify, or what kinds of advice can be drawn from a reading? Do you understand the different ways in which tarot are used, or the different ideas about their capacities?

Not in depth I admit.
I know than each card has a certain meaning but they are usually vague. I also know that this meaning changes between sets of card and readers. There are different spreads and such that are meant to put the cards in context.
Some readers and most lay people believe the are for predicting the future others believe it only gives a reading if the person.

From karynp's description it sound very much like cold reading.

What I'm suggesting is using two of the same deck and using them at the same time. If they work shouldn't the same cards come up, or at the least have similar interpretations?

karynp

What i described is not cold reading, i read cards and have done for a good number of years and am defo not any kind of fraud or deluded in any way. Its a simple explanation,if a card is being read psychically,its only a tool,therefore,2 readers reading the cards on a psychic level should come up with the same info or very similar,regardless of the cards.
If someone were to take a book and read it on cards and then both people read the cards then id imagine they would come up with something similar making no sense and having no depth or real meaning for the reciever.
Thats the difference between a good or bad reader. Anyone can interprete a tarot card on a few meanings read in a book,but as i said before,its not enough info,you need to psychically tap into the persons energy to get the correct meaning.
No matter what i say you will draw your own conclusions.the only way to ever discover the truth is to study these cards yourself and see what you come up with,use them on friends ect,if you think perhaps you know too much about the person already then try getting them to pick the cards in another room,you do not know who picked them,there handed to yuo and you read them.
the thing with psychics ect and the tools they use is there are no logical explanations that will ever be accepted,the only way to the truth is to find it for yourself,and only then can you be in a proper position to make a proper judgement.

Nevyn

It's also the spread that a person uses, the different postions in different spreads mean different things.

I have had the same groups of cards and indeed a single card come up repeatedly over a period of 3 months in both my own decks and of others which pertained to a certain thing in my life. It just happens.

Karynp did not descripe cold reading at all, seems you don't know the difference.

Oryx

Johnsix, have you ever had a tarot reading?

johnsix

karynp wrote: »

What i described is not cold reading, i read cards and have done for a good number of years and am defo not any kind of fraud or deluded in any way. Its a simple explanation,if a card is being read psychically,its only a tool,therefore,2 readers reading the cards on a psychic level should come up with the same info or very similar,regardless of the cards.
If someone were to take a book and read it on cards and then both people read the cards then id imagine they would come up with something similar making no sense and having no depth or real meaning for the reciever.
Thats the difference between a good or bad reader. Anyone can interprete a tarot card on a few meanings read in a book,but as i said before,its not enough info,you need to psychically tap into the persons energy to get the correct meaning.
No matter what i say you will draw your own conclusions.the only way to ever discover the truth is to study these cards yourself and see what you come up with,use them on friends ect,if you think perhaps you know too much about the person already then try getting them to pick the cards in another room,you do not know who picked them,there handed to yuo and you read them.
the thing with psychics ect and the tools they use is there are no logical explanations that will ever be accepted,the only way to the truth is to find it for yourself,and only then can you be in a proper position to make a proper judgement.

I have done this by the way. I owned a deck a while back and realised that I really was using subjective validation.
What I never tried was doing a reader within a few seconds of each other to see if they gave the same result.
What a fairly convincing result would be the exact smae card in the exact same order every time.
What would you concider similar meaning exactly?

Nevyn

the exact smae card in the exact same order every time

Not going to happen tbh, it's a 72 card deck but you can get the most pertinant cards again and again.

Oryx

Ive noticed similar cards in a spread reinforcing the same thing, so while you would get different cards they can be interpreted similarly. It depends on the spread. Not as experienced as some here though.

When doing one card picks for yourself, its common enough to often get the same card.

johnsix

Thaedydal wrote: »

Not going to happen tbh, it's a 72 card deck but you can get the most pertinant cards again and again.

So what you're saying is that you get completely different cards but can be interpreted the exact same way?

Nevyn

No what I said was you dont' get the exact same say 7 cards but you can get 3 out of that 7 again and again.

idunnoutellme

i've noticed if you do one spread and get say 3 cards, then if you go and do another say 5 card spread for the same question you get 2 or 3 cards reappearing. looks pretty convincing to me. there's no guarantee they will reappear but i think its pretty good when they do

johnsix

These two or three cards that reappear do they mean the same thing in the order they appear? What about the other 4 or 5?
How often do they reappear?

masterwriter

karynp wrote: »

if a card is being read psychically,its only a tool,..

then why use cards at all? is there any evidence, beyond the practitioners belief, that there is anything in them

6th

masterwriter wrote: »

then why use cards at all? is there any evidence, beyond the practitioners belief, that there is anything in them

Some see them as a focus point for the readers own ability. I've had them described to me like yellow road signs.

lilRedSmurf

6th wrote: »

Some see them as a focus point for the readers own ability. I've had them described to me like yellow road signs.

Divination tools are just that; tools. They create points of focus around a question or situation and then if you're open to recieving some guidance they can help you bring that message through. Doesnt matter what people use in my experience. Can be cards, palms, pendulums, i ching sticks, whatever works for them.

When i walk into a show i can pick out the really good readers a mile off because often times they are the ones using whatever tools they use as triggers. Linking in with a higher consiousness is often much easier with the use of tools because it creates that focused space even in a crowded exhibition hall or wherever you may be.

I've heard again and again that readers cant remember long, deep, profound conversations that have occured during a reading. But they can start right back up where they left off when the same person turns up again. Its not their ego bringing through that message and often the ego just wont remember it or be able to proccess it.

One last point.... Its a lot easier to tell someone that you're a tarot reader then it is to tell them that you're a psychic tarot reader.

Sapien

johnsix wrote: »

Not in depth I admit.
I know than each card has a certain meaning but they are usually vague. I also know that this meaning changes between sets of card and readers. There are different spreads and such that are meant to put the cards in context.
Some readers and most lay people believe the are for predicting the future others believe it only gives a reading if the person.

From karynp's description it sound very much like cold reading.

What I'm suggesting is using two of the same deck and using them at the same time. If they work shouldn't the same cards come up, or at the least have similar interpretations?

Though it is undoubtedly the approach of many who use the Tarot, it is very simplistic to view Tarot as simply reading off the listed meanings of the cards. Of course, anyone can buy a pack of cards, but I'm sure you realise that being able to read them well would involve considerably more time, effort and practise. More, even, than buying one of the hundreds of books that explain the meanings and the various spreads people use.

lilRedSmurf has put it very well, but you may not believe in psychic abilities, and proper use of Tarot can be explained without relying on such a belief. Tarot, like any other divinatory method, involves inducing a different state of mind, in which impressions and feeling arise from the subconscious. Many believe that psychic faculties are accessed through the subconscious in this way. Others simply believe that the subconscious can process information in ways the conscious mind cannot.

To an experienced Tarot reader, a card can have many meanings, or rather, an extremely abstract meaning, that only takes on specific meaning in context. In a trance-like state, the reader allows the images of the cards to settle in, and the associations the cards evoke in the reader to develop and intermingle. Ultimately, the significance of the cards is to stimulate an imaginative process wherein subconscious insights are allowed to take form. A good reading has more to do with the ability of the reader to enter the requisite state of mind, and his or her natural ability or level of skill in drawing forth useful impressions, than it has to do with what cards come up and where.

So, to answer your specific question: 1) two different sets of cards can lead to the same conclusion, by way of the trance-like process in which the cards are interpreted. 2) two different readings can relate to different aspects of the subjects life. Properly, readings should answer very specific questions (should I this, or could I that), and these questions should only be read upon once at a time.

johnsix

Sapien wrote: »

Though it is undoubtedly the approach of many who use the Tarot, it is very simplistic to view Tarot as simply reading off the listed meanings of the cards. Of course, anyone can buy a pack of cards, but I'm sure you realise that being able to read them well would involve considerably more time, effort and practise. More, even, than buying one of the hundreds of books that explain the meanings and the various spreads people use.

lilRedSmurf has put it very well, but you may not believe in psychic abilities, and proper use of Tarot can be explained without relying on such a belief. Tarot, like any other divinatory method, involves inducing a different state of mind, in which impressions and feeling arise from the subconscious. Many believe that psychic faculties are accessed through the subconscious in this way. Others simply believe that the subconscious can process information in ways the conscious mind cannot.

To an experienced Tarot reader, a card can have many meanings, or rather, an extremely abstract meaning, that only takes on specific meaning in context. In a trance-like state, the reader allows the images of the cards to settle in, and the associations the cards evoke in the reader to develop and intermingle. Ultimately, the significance of the cards is to stimulate an imaginative process wherein subconscious insights are allowed to take form. A good reading has more to do with the ability of the reader to enter the requisite state of mind, and his or her natural ability or level of skill in drawing forth useful impressions, than it has to do with what cards come up and where.

So, to answer your specific question: 1) two different sets of cards can lead to the same conclusion, by way of the trance-like process in which the cards are interpreted. 2) two different readings can relate to different aspects of the subjects life. Properly, readings should answer very specific questions (should I this, or could I that), and these questions should only be read upon once at a time.

So essentially any card in any order can be interpreted in any way as long as the reader can apply it to anything that means something to them?

ntlbell

johnsix wrote: »

So essentially any card in any order can be interpreted in any way as long as the reader can apply it to anything that means something to them?

omgz i think you just worked out tarot cards are nonsense :eek::eek::eek:

what a breakthrough young man!

johnsix

ntlbell wrote: »

omgz i think you just worked out tarot cards are nonsense :eek::eek::eek:

what a breakthrough young man!

can i has nobel prize now?

ntlbell

johnsix wrote: »

can i has nobel prize now?

it's a bit like working out snap is just a game...

some people take snap very serious tho..

i still think you deserve something tho....bluepeter badge at least

Nevyn

johnsix wrote: »

So essentially any card in any order can be interpreted in any way as long as the reader can apply it to anything that means something to them?

Nope.

Seriously if it's stats you want go and work out the probabilities and run your own trials and take from them what you want.

Those who have been working with tarot for years are not going to see the point in explaining something to you which you can not understand due to your lack of experience.

ntlbell

Thaedydal wrote: »

Nope.

Seriously if it's stats you want go and work out the probabilities and run your own trials and take from them what you want.

Those who have been working with tarot for years are not going to see the point in explaining something to you which you can not understand due to your lack of experience.

without getting into it too much it's the laws of probability that he seems to understand but no one will answer his question.

if we shuffle a deck of cards obv there's is set probabilities on the cards can come out and your chances of receiving such a card is always the same at each shuffle....

so if i sit in a room and get constant readings from now for the next week

surley by laws of probablility the cards will be different on enough occassion for the reading to totally different on X amount of occasions

leaving the whole thing eh i'll be nice and say unreliabile

i think this is what he's getting at...

johnsix

The reason i asked the question in the first place was to see if the was a way to prove tarot cards empirically.
This seems to be quite difficult seeing as the card or order they are draw have no set meaning and all is dependent on the reader applying said meaning.
The big question is, what makes tarot cards more than just apophenia?
http://skepdic.com/apophenia.html

Sapien

johnsix wrote: »

So essentially any card in any order can be interpreted in any way as long as the reader can apply it to anything that means something to them?

No. You're not quite entering into the spirit of this. Do you want an explanation, or is this a thinly veiled means of rubbishing Tarot?

ntlbell

Sapien wrote: »

No. You're not quite entering into the spirit of this. Do you want an explanation, or is this a thinly veiled means of rubbishing Tarot?

when a reader comes to the house do you have to enter into the spirit in order to get a correct reading?

just curious

bug

Dunno, I wouldnt get it done though, apparently my life is going to be a whole heap of **** for a good while.

Sapien

ntlbell wrote: »

when a reader comes to the house do you have to enter into the spirit in order to get a correct reading?

just curious

I would have thought that any person seeking the services of a Tarot reader would begin in the right spirit.

Nevyn

ntlbell wrote: »

without getting into it too much it's the laws of probability that he seems to understand but no one will answer his question.

I have answered his question trice in fact.

Thaedydal wrote: »

I have had the same groups of cards and indeed a single card come up repeatedly over a period of 3 months in both my own decks and of others which pertained to a certain thing in my life. It just happens.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Not going to happen tbh, it's a 72 card deck but you can get the most pertinant cards again and again.

Thaedydal wrote: »

No what I said was you dont' get the exact same say 7 cards but you can get 3 out of that 7 again and again.

But apprently my 17 years of experience working with Tarot means nothing with out hard empirical data. :rolleyes:

ntlbell wrote: »

if we shuffle a deck of cards obv there's is set probabilities on the cards can come out and your chances of receiving such a card is always the same at each shuffle....

Thats nice theory but my experiences have shown me otherwise.

ntlbell wrote: »

so if i sit in a room and get constant readings from now for the next week surley by laws of probablility the cards will be different on enough occassion for the reading to totally different on X amount of occasions

Ever try and prove murphy's law ?

masterwriter wrote: »

then why use cards at all? is there any evidence, beyond the practitioners belief, that there is anything in them

Because they a tool which works.
Really if you are interested as to why and how I suggest you read

Tarot; Talisman or Taboo?: Reading the World As Symbol
by Mark Patrick Hederman

and

Man and His Symbols by Carl Jung.

johnsix wrote: »

These two or three cards that reappear do they mean the same thing in the order they appear? What about the other 4 or 5?
How often do they reappear?

Again I have never looked at recording the probabilities I've more intresting things to consider.

ntlbell wrote: »

when a reader comes to the house do you have to enter into the spirit in order to get a correct reading?

just curious

A querent must open themselves to the reading, if they can't then you may as well hand them dominoes to shuffle.

johnsix wrote: »

The reason i asked the question in the first place was to see if the was a way to prove tarot cards empirically.

Good luck with that, again really do you not have anything better to be doing ? Then again it takes all sorts I guess.

johnsix wrote: »

This seems to be quite difficult seeing as the card or order they are draw have no set meaning and all is dependent on the reader applying said meaning.

Certain spreads are very specific.

johnsix wrote: »

The big question is, what makes tarot cards more than just apophenia?

Again I refer you to the two book I have recommended.

I would say that yes I do enter an altered brain state when reading cards and there are times it can take a while to shake it.
I did a huge ammount of readings on Sunday and it took about 24 hours to
settle myself down afterwards but it is something I have control over rather then it being a physcois.

ntlbell

your 17 years of exp with tarot cards seemed to have had a serious affect on your logic.

if you have 72 cards and you give a person 7 cards by the laws of nothing else but maths there is a % chance each time they will get a particular card

so if one card is big donkey for instance and your dealing a card

surley the chances of the person getting the donkey card is 72/1 ?

if you deal them 7 cards the chances of them getting the donkey card is just slightly over 10/1 ?

so the chance of getting a single card at start of each shuffle never changes it's always 72/1 and 10/1 in the same?

surley you can't argue with math's?

I never claimed to be a mathmathion but I can't see how it can't come down maths

or do tarot readers not have to abide by the rules of math's?

Nevyn

From a purely maths point of view that shoudl be the case, but there are more factors in play then just pure mathematical probabilty.

There are more things between heaven and earth then dreamed of in your philosophy.

or as Mr Prattchet put it

Sometimes Million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.

lilRedSmurf

ntlbell wrote: »

if you have 72 cards and you give a person 7 cards by the laws of nothing else but maths there is a % chance each time they will get a particular card

I never claimed to be a mathmathion but I can't see how it can't come down maths

or do tarot readers not have to abide by the rules of math's?

The point that seems to have been totally missed here is that tarot is a form of divination. Divination which by its very nature does not necessarily conform to the laws of probability or logic.

In fact most biological data doesnt conform to either of them either. Biological data is statistically messy. We are statistically messy.

When looking for logical conclusions from messy biological data you tidy up your data, make outliers disappear and make assumptions and then find what model that data fits given those assumptions and what scale makes your conclusions most pronounced. You basically chop it up and put it back together to make what you think might be right look true.

Looking for logic in life isnt easy at the best of times so looking for logic in divination techniques is something I would definitly not waste time trying to find because you could easily spend a lifetime at it and have nothing to show for it in the end.

johnsix

Thaedydal wrote: »

From a purely maths point of view that shoudl be the case, but there are more factors in play then just pure mathematical probabilty.

Actually I think because the exact same cards don't come up with any frequency it kind of implies that there is nothing other than chance and mathematic probability affecting the drawing of the cards.

johnsix

lilRedSmurf wrote: »

The point that seems to have been totally missed here is that tarot is a form of divination. Divination which by its very nature does not necessarily conform to the laws of probability or logic.

In fact most biological data doesnt conform to either of them either. Biological data is statistically messy. We are statistically messy.

When looking for logical conclusions from messy biological data you tidy up your data, make outliers disappear and make assumptions and then find what model that data fits given those assumptions and what scale makes your conclusions most pronounced. You basically chop it up and put it back together to make what you think might be right look true.

Looking for logic in life isnt easy at the best of times so looking for logic in divination techniques is something I would definitly not waste time trying to find because you could easily spend a lifetime at it and have nothing to show for it in the end.

That just shows a woeful knowledge of how science works.

Nevyn

johnsix wrote: »

Actually I think because the exact same cards don't come up with any frequency it kind of implies that there is nothing other than chance and mathematic probability affecting the drawing of the cards.

In your experience they haven't /shrug.

johnsix wrote: »

That just shows a woeful knowledge of how science works.

Funny that is a good term to describe your knowledge of how tarot work.

ntlbell

Thaedydal wrote: »

From a purely maths point of view that shoudl be the case, but there are more factors in play then just pure mathematical probabilty.

There are more things between heaven and earth then dreamed of in your philosophy.

or as Mr Prattchet put it

Sometimes Million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.

Not should be the case it is the case.

The chances of a 100-1 shot happening 10/20 times in a row although unlikley is not impossible but maths will win out in the end and it will be 100-1 that's why it's 100-1

so if i sit with a tarot reader for a week of non stops readings surley the reading will be totally different on a number of occasions just down to maths alone?

are you denying this?

lilRedSmurf

johnsix wrote: »

That just shows a woeful knowledge of how science works.

Ya wanna read my research masters thesis... I specialised in applied aquatic ecology and conservation biology. Lotsa messy biological data and a painfully large amount of stats.

Now i cleanse auras and do bodywork and reflexology for a living, have my own natural medicine clinic, and teach workshops in things like Dowsing and the Art of Divination but i hope you wont hold that against me.

ntlbell

lilRedSmurf wrote: »

Ya wanna read my masters thesis... I specialised in applied aquatic ecology and conservation biology. Lotsa messy biological data and a painfully large amount of stats.

Now i cleanse auras and do bodywork and reflexology for a living, have my own natural medicine clinic, and teach workshops in things like Dowsing and the Art of Divination but i hope you wont hold that against me.

and yet simple math's fails you.

Odd.

Nevyn

Thats your poblem you are trying to apply layman's simple maths to a complex issue,
when you should be looking at chaos theory.

johnsix

lilRedSmurf wrote: »

Ya wanna read my research masters thesis... I specialised in applied aquatic ecology and conservation biology. Lotsa messy biological data and a painfully large amount of stats.

Now i cleanse auras and do bodywork and reflexology for a living, have my own natural medicine clinic, and teach workshops in things like Dowsing and the Art of Divination but i hope you wont hold that against me.

Hate to break it to you, but if you believe in dowsing, you're not a good scientist.
Dowsing is the easiest paranormal ability to empirically evaluate, and it fails every time.
Have you ever double blind tested it?

lilRedSmurf

Thaedydal wrote: »

Thats your poblem you are trying to apply layman's simple maths to a complex issue,
when you should be looking at chaos theory.

Somehow i get the feeling that the rather beautiful complexities of chaos theory would fall on deaf ears in this case...:rolleyes:

ntlbell

Thaedydal wrote: »

Thats your poblem you are trying to apply layman's simple maths to a complex issue,
when you should be looking at chaos theory.

No, you're ignoring simple math's...

because it suits you to do so.

Oryx

ntlbell wrote: »

No, you're ignoring simple math's...

because it suits you to do so.

And you are ignoring the complexity of the human psyche because it suits you to do so.

lilRedSmurf

johnsix wrote: »

Hate to break it to you, but if you believe in dowsing, you're not a good scientist.
Dowsing is the easiest paranormal ability to empirically evaluate, and it fails every time.
Have you ever double blind tested it?

Actually yes but there is no point in sharing any data concerning that since you have obviously made up your mind already.

And no it doesnt make me a bad scientist this just makes you an intolerant and close minded human being.

ntlbell

Oryx wrote: »

And you are ignoring the complexity of the human psyche because it suits you to do so.

I can prove my side of the discussion....

i'm not ignoring the human psyche because in this discussion it can't be really defined so you can keep throwing any aul crap at me and say "but but your ignoring my powah's"

I'm asking a question....

if the math's are correct and we run the reading 1000 times will the reading change?

johnsix

lilRedSmurf wrote: »

Actually yes but there is no point in sharing any data concerning that since you have obviously made up your mind already.

And no it doesnt make me a bad scientist this just makes you an intolerant and close minded human being.

I eat puppies too.

But if you have really good data and are confidant in your abilities why not go for the million dollar prize?