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Question About Tarot Cards

  • 13-06-2008 03:37PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭


    Given that a certain combination and of cards give a certain prediction/reading etc. for a certain person.
    If you were to do two full readings for a person say 30 sec apart wouldn't you get the same combination and order of cards?
    Or similarly two decks at the same time or two readers at the same time.


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,934 ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    I'm no expert, but I'm 99% sure that the answer is no, no and no.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭johnsix


    Why though?
    What changes in 30 seconds between readings or the 2 feet between readers?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,934 ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    IMO just the whole random numbers element. If the same cards came up for the same people, it would prove that a person determines what cards are drawn,
    so once again open to correction, whatever a card means at whatever time, combined with whatever a reader picks up at that different time will change.

    different cards, with different meanings, combined with different times and different interpretations allow enough random parameters to leave the validity of the whole process up to the interpretation of any individual analysing the process. IMHO


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭johnsix


    But if a certain order of cards predict or read a certain thing, shouldn't the prediction/reading of the same subject at the same give the same result every time?
    Or do they give different results? What happens if the results are contradictory?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 343 ✭✭karynp


    I have done readings for people who have gotten a reading done a half hour before at fairs by different readers and have been told by them the same cards came up. The difference is how its interpreted. In my opinion,resutls can be contradicted i believe,based on the readers frame of mind,ive done some readings and when a certain card appears the client flinches and says oh no,because its been read incorrectly and in a very negative way by the last reader. one time i had a health card come up and the girl started to cry,i told her it was simply a bad chest infection,due to the place she lived in,to go to the doctor and get it cleared up,the last reader had told her the card meant she had lung cancer!!! turns out my interpretation was right. Each card holds a very different meaning each time it is read,if you look on each card as say a headline,but you need to look inside for the full picture or story as to its real meaning.
    Also for myself,when ive done a reading for myself and decided to ignore the cards appearing,for whatever reason,ive reshuffled and drawn the same cards again.
    Ive no explanation for it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Sapien


    johnsix wrote: »
    But if a certain order of cards predict or read a certain thing, shouldn't the prediction/reading of the same subject at the same give the same result every time?
    Or do they give different results? What happens if the results are contradictory?
    How much do you know about tarot reading and interpretation? Have you any knowledge of what kinds of things different cards signify, or what kinds of advice can be drawn from a reading? Do you understand the different ways in which tarot are used, or the different ideas about their capacities?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭johnsix


    Sapien wrote: »
    How much do you know about tarot reading and interpretation? Have you any knowledge of what kinds of things different cards signify, or what kinds of advice can be drawn from a reading? Do you understand the different ways in which tarot are used, or the different ideas about their capacities?
    Not in depth I admit.
    I know than each card has a certain meaning but they are usually vague. I also know that this meaning changes between sets of card and readers. There are different spreads and such that are meant to put the cards in context.
    Some readers and most lay people believe the are for predicting the future others believe it only gives a reading if the person.

    From karynp's description it sound very much like cold reading.

    What I'm suggesting is using two of the same deck and using them at the same time. If they work shouldn't the same cards come up, or at the least have similar interpretations?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 343 ✭✭karynp


    What i described is not cold reading, i read cards and have done for a good number of years and am defo not any kind of fraud or deluded in any way. Its a simple explanation,if a card is being read psychically,its only a tool,therefore,2 readers reading the cards on a psychic level should come up with the same info or very similar,regardless of the cards.
    If someone were to take a book and read it on cards and then both people read the cards then id imagine they would come up with something similar making no sense and having no depth or real meaning for the reciever.
    Thats the difference between a good or bad reader. Anyone can interprete a tarot card on a few meanings read in a book,but as i said before,its not enough info,you need to psychically tap into the persons energy to get the correct meaning.
    No matter what i say you will draw your own conclusions.the only way to ever discover the truth is to study these cards yourself and see what you come up with,use them on friends ect,if you think perhaps you know too much about the person already then try getting them to pick the cards in another room,you do not know who picked them,there handed to yuo and you read them.
    the thing with psychics ect and the tools they use is there are no logical explanations that will ever be accepted,the only way to the truth is to find it for yourself,and only then can you be in a proper position to make a proper judgement.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    It's also the spread that a person uses, the different postions in different spreads mean different things.

    I have had the same groups of cards and indeed a single card come up repeatedly over a period of 3 months in both my own decks and of others which pertained to a certain thing in my life. It just happens.

    Karynp did not descripe cold reading at all, seems you don't know the difference.


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Johnsix, have you ever had a tarot reading?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭johnsix


    karynp wrote: »
    What i described is not cold reading, i read cards and have done for a good number of years and am defo not any kind of fraud or deluded in any way. Its a simple explanation,if a card is being read psychically,its only a tool,therefore,2 readers reading the cards on a psychic level should come up with the same info or very similar,regardless of the cards.
    If someone were to take a book and read it on cards and then both people read the cards then id imagine they would come up with something similar making no sense and having no depth or real meaning for the reciever.
    Thats the difference between a good or bad reader. Anyone can interprete a tarot card on a few meanings read in a book,but as i said before,its not enough info,you need to psychically tap into the persons energy to get the correct meaning.
    No matter what i say you will draw your own conclusions.the only way to ever discover the truth is to study these cards yourself and see what you come up with,use them on friends ect,if you think perhaps you know too much about the person already then try getting them to pick the cards in another room,you do not know who picked them,there handed to yuo and you read them.
    the thing with psychics ect and the tools they use is there are no logical explanations that will ever be accepted,the only way to the truth is to find it for yourself,and only then can you be in a proper position to make a proper judgement.
    I have done this by the way. I owned a deck a while back and realised that I really was using subjective validation.
    What I never tried was doing a reader within a few seconds of each other to see if they gave the same result.
    What a fairly convincing result would be the exact smae card in the exact same order every time.
    What would you concider similar meaning exactly?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    the exact smae card in the exact same order every time

    Not going to happen tbh, it's a 72 card deck but you can get the most pertinant cards again and again.


  • Subscribers Posts: 19,421 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Ive noticed similar cards in a spread reinforcing the same thing, so while you would get different cards they can be interpreted similarly. It depends on the spread. Not as experienced as some here though.

    When doing one card picks for yourself, its common enough to often get the same card.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭johnsix


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Not going to happen tbh, it's a 72 card deck but you can get the most pertinant cards again and again.
    So what you're saying is that you get completely different cards but can be interpreted the exact same way?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    No what I said was you dont' get the exact same say 7 cards but you can get 3 out of that 7 again and again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 390 ✭✭idunnoutellme


    i've noticed if you do one spread and get say 3 cards, then if you go and do another say 5 card spread for the same question you get 2 or 3 cards reappearing. looks pretty convincing to me. there's no guarantee they will reappear but i think its pretty good when they do :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭johnsix


    These two or three cards that reappear do they mean the same thing in the order they appear? What about the other 4 or 5?
    How often do they reappear?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭masterwriter


    karynp wrote: »
    if a card is being read psychically,its only a tool,..
    then why use cards at all? is there any evidence, beyond the practitioners belief, that there is anything in them


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    then why use cards at all? is there any evidence, beyond the practitioners belief, that there is anything in them

    Some see them as a focus point for the readers own ability. I've had them described to me like yellow road signs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 170 ✭✭lilRedSmurf


    6th wrote: »
    Some see them as a focus point for the readers own ability. I've had them described to me like yellow road signs.

    Divination tools are just that; tools. They create points of focus around a question or situation and then if you're open to recieving some guidance they can help you bring that message through. Doesnt matter what people use in my experience. Can be cards, palms, pendulums, i ching sticks, whatever works for them.

    When i walk into a show i can pick out the really good readers a mile off because often times they are the ones using whatever tools they use as triggers. Linking in with a higher consiousness is often much easier with the use of tools because it creates that focused space even in a crowded exhibition hall or wherever you may be.

    I've heard again and again that readers cant remember long, deep, profound conversations that have occured during a reading. But they can start right back up where they left off when the same person turns up again. Its not their ego bringing through that message and often the ego just wont remember it or be able to proccess it.

    One last point.... Its a lot easier to tell someone that you're a tarot reader then it is to tell them that you're a psychic tarot reader.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Sapien


    johnsix wrote: »
    Not in depth I admit.
    I know than each card has a certain meaning but they are usually vague. I also know that this meaning changes between sets of card and readers. There are different spreads and such that are meant to put the cards in context.
    Some readers and most lay people believe the are for predicting the future others believe it only gives a reading if the person.

    From karynp's description it sound very much like cold reading.

    What I'm suggesting is using two of the same deck and using them at the same time. If they work shouldn't the same cards come up, or at the least have similar interpretations?
    Though it is undoubtedly the approach of many who use the Tarot, it is very simplistic to view Tarot as simply reading off the listed meanings of the cards. Of course, anyone can buy a pack of cards, but I'm sure you realise that being able to read them well would involve considerably more time, effort and practise. More, even, than buying one of the hundreds of books that explain the meanings and the various spreads people use.

    lilRedSmurf has put it very well, but you may not believe in psychic abilities, and proper use of Tarot can be explained without relying on such a belief. Tarot, like any other divinatory method, involves inducing a different state of mind, in which impressions and feeling arise from the subconscious. Many believe that psychic faculties are accessed through the subconscious in this way. Others simply believe that the subconscious can process information in ways the conscious mind cannot.

    To an experienced Tarot reader, a card can have many meanings, or rather, an extremely abstract meaning, that only takes on specific meaning in context. In a trance-like state, the reader allows the images of the cards to settle in, and the associations the cards evoke in the reader to develop and intermingle. Ultimately, the significance of the cards is to stimulate an imaginative process wherein subconscious insights are allowed to take form. A good reading has more to do with the ability of the reader to enter the requisite state of mind, and his or her natural ability or level of skill in drawing forth useful impressions, than it has to do with what cards come up and where.

    So, to answer your specific question: 1) two different sets of cards can lead to the same conclusion, by way of the trance-like process in which the cards are interpreted. 2) two different readings can relate to different aspects of the subjects life. Properly, readings should answer very specific questions (should I this, or could I that), and these questions should only be read upon once at a time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭johnsix


    Sapien wrote: »
    Though it is undoubtedly the approach of many who use the Tarot, it is very simplistic to view Tarot as simply reading off the listed meanings of the cards. Of course, anyone can buy a pack of cards, but I'm sure you realise that being able to read them well would involve considerably more time, effort and practise. More, even, than buying one of the hundreds of books that explain the meanings and the various spreads people use.

    lilRedSmurf has put it very well, but you may not believe in psychic abilities, and proper use of Tarot can be explained without relying on such a belief. Tarot, like any other divinatory method, involves inducing a different state of mind, in which impressions and feeling arise from the subconscious. Many believe that psychic faculties are accessed through the subconscious in this way. Others simply believe that the subconscious can process information in ways the conscious mind cannot.

    To an experienced Tarot reader, a card can have many meanings, or rather, an extremely abstract meaning, that only takes on specific meaning in context. In a trance-like state, the reader allows the images of the cards to settle in, and the associations the cards evoke in the reader to develop and intermingle. Ultimately, the significance of the cards is to stimulate an imaginative process wherein subconscious insights are allowed to take form. A good reading has more to do with the ability of the reader to enter the requisite state of mind, and his or her natural ability or level of skill in drawing forth useful impressions, than it has to do with what cards come up and where.

    So, to answer your specific question: 1) two different sets of cards can lead to the same conclusion, by way of the trance-like process in which the cards are interpreted. 2) two different readings can relate to different aspects of the subjects life. Properly, readings should answer very specific questions (should I this, or could I that), and these questions should only be read upon once at a time.
    So essentially any card in any order can be interpreted in any way as long as the reader can apply it to anything that means something to them?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,287 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    johnsix wrote: »
    So essentially any card in any order can be interpreted in any way as long as the reader can apply it to anything that means something to them?


    omgz i think you just worked out tarot cards are nonsense :eek::eek::eek:

    what a breakthrough young man!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭johnsix


    ntlbell wrote: »
    omgz i think you just worked out tarot cards are nonsense :eek::eek::eek:

    what a breakthrough young man!
    can i has nobel prize now?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,287 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    johnsix wrote: »
    can i has nobel prize now?

    it's a bit like working out snap is just a game...

    some people take snap very serious tho..

    i still think you deserve something tho....bluepeter badge at least


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    johnsix wrote: »
    So essentially any card in any order can be interpreted in any way as long as the reader can apply it to anything that means something to them?

    Nope.

    Seriously if it's stats you want go and work out the probabilities and run your own trials and take from them what you want.

    Those who have been working with tarot for years are not going to see the point in explaining something to you which you can not understand due to your lack of experience.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,287 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Nope.

    Seriously if it's stats you want go and work out the probabilities and run your own trials and take from them what you want.

    Those who have been working with tarot for years are not going to see the point in explaining something to you which you can not understand due to your lack of experience.

    without getting into it too much it's the laws of probability that he seems to understand but no one will answer his question.

    if we shuffle a deck of cards obv there's is set probabilities on the cards can come out and your chances of receiving such a card is always the same at each shuffle....

    so if i sit in a room and get constant readings from now for the next week

    surley by laws of probablility the cards will be different on enough occassion for the reading to totally different on X amount of occasions

    leaving the whole thing eh i'll be nice and say unreliabile

    i think this is what he's getting at...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭johnsix


    The reason i asked the question in the first place was to see if the was a way to prove tarot cards empirically.
    This seems to be quite difficult seeing as the card or order they are draw have no set meaning and all is dependent on the reader applying said meaning.
    The big question is, what makes tarot cards more than just apophenia?
    http://skepdic.com/apophenia.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Sapien


    johnsix wrote: »
    So essentially any card in any order can be interpreted in any way as long as the reader can apply it to anything that means something to them?
    No. You're not quite entering into the spirit of this. Do you want an explanation, or is this a thinly veiled means of rubbishing Tarot?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,287 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    Sapien wrote: »
    No. You're not quite entering into the spirit of this. Do you want an explanation, or is this a thinly veiled means of rubbishing Tarot?

    when a reader comes to the house do you have to enter into the spirit in order to get a correct reading?

    just curious


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