How will the EU punish us now?

drunkmonkey

Loads of scare tactics by the Yes Side, Forecasting Doom & Gloom..

What happens now, What punishment should we expect from the EU or were they false threats used to try and bully is into voting Yes?

Rb

They can't really do anything. Punishing us for voting no would be absolutely undemocratic and I doubt that's the message they want to give off if they ever want to get this through successfully.

Ponster

thread = fail

The EU can't 'punish' Ireland for following the democratic process.

drunkmonkey

The Yes Campaign said it would be a disaster for Ireland, where's the disaster?, surley if there going to use feat tactics they must at least scare us a little bit if there ever to believed again....

whiskeyman

they can't punish us.

I voted Yes in the end, but was swinging both ways for ages.
If they do punish us in some way, it would make me consider I was wrong to vote yes in favour of this institution.
Personally, I'll be very anti-EU if they try to 'punish' us, and I'm sure many will feel the same.

gcgirl

Posted via Mobile Devicei love us to opt of of europe now see how we survive on our own just the way dev wanted

biko

I can't see how they would be able to. Was just scare tactics by Yes campaign and Bernard Kouchner. He said: 'The first victims would be the Irish. They have benefited more than others.'

meditraitor

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Loads of scare tactics by the Yes Side, Forecasting Doom & Gloom..

What happens now, What punishment should we expect from the EU or were they false threats used to try and bully is into voting Yes?

This was the No crazies propoganda

What I want to know is when did Europe turn into some crazy china type state? Dishing out punishment to countries for not agreeing????? when when when answer that ye eeeejits!

But to late for that now as the no nuts won the day...

BlitzKrieg

dev wanted us all to be farmers too

drunkmonkey

gcgirl wrote: »

Posted via Mobile Devicei love us to opt of of europe now see how we survive on our own just the way dev wanted

I think Dev would be Carrying Gerry & Mary on each shoulder, A proud day for Ireland...

meditraitor

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

dev wanted us all to be farmers too

all except Big Mick, :pac: who he wanted dead

BMH

There'll be no direct punishment, or any mention of it.

However, we're stuck with an inefficient system, and we missed out on what I view to be a good deal(Charter of Fundamental Rights, Global Warming aspirations, Citizen's Initiative, QMV, guaranteed parity in distribution of commissioners(though I would be surprised if a new system was brought in in 2009) and increased transparency to name a few aspects). I believe we'll lose foreign investment over this, as well as power and respect at the debating table. I can't see us being included in any future initiatives like Schengen either, and if we become more distant with Europe, we must become closer to the UK. With a conservative government coming in there soon, this is not something we want.

ShooterSF

meditraitor wrote: »

This was the No crazies propoganda

What I want to know is when did Europe turn into some crazy china type state? Dishing out punishment to countries for not agreeing????? when when when answer that ye eeeejits!

But to late for that now as the no nuts won the day...

No no time to turn the coin the other way for a moment now. The No side got blasted over their scare tactics and many claim it's why the vote is looking like a no. Now lets look at the other side. We were warned by Biffo and co. that voting No would be a disaster and Europe would be very angry at us so.....

Rb

biko wrote: »

I can't see how they would be able to. Was just scare tactics by Yes campaign and Bernard Kouchner. He said: 'The first victims would be the Irish. They have benefited more than others.'

Absolutely. Nice of him to fail to mention how much other countries in the EU have benefitted from fishing our waters though considering they got about 2-3 times the amount (in €) that we got directly.

BMH

gcgirl wrote: »

Posted via Mobile Devicei love us to opt of of europe now see how we survive on our own just the way dev wanted

I'm pretty sure we already tried that one. Wasn't that fun actually, even with oh so wondrous deV at the helm, steering us straight into the Atlantic.

BMH

Rb wrote: »

Absolutely. Nice of him to fail to mention how much other countries in the EU have benefitted from fishing our waters though considering they got about 2-3 times the amount (in €) that we got directly.

You have a source that suggests other member states got €114bn from fishing in our waters?

O'Morris

Rb wrote: »

They can't really do anything. Punishing us for voting no would be absolutely undemocratic and I doubt that's the message they want to give off if they ever want to get this through successfully.

Punishing an entire country for the actions of a majority is as indefensible as punishing it for the actions of a minority.

Other EU countries should consider very carefully what the consequences would be if they decide to 'punish' us. Do they really want to turn the europhile elite in this country against them?

DishonestPikey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The Yes Campaign said it would be a disaster for Ireland, where's the disaster?, surley if there going to use feat tactics they must at least scare us a little bit if there ever to believed again....

Where's the disaster? at least wait till its over! I think the disaster you are referring to is that as politicians working in the EU they will not have the same bargaining power as previously. As a small nation that has little to offer the EU except maybe fish, we rely on people liking us and Irish politicians have been very good at gaining support from other nations for their arguments.

Ponster

ShooterSF wrote: »

Now lets look at the other side. We were warned by Biffo and co. that voting No would be a disaster and Europe would be very angry at us so.....

Had "yes' won then Europe would have been a more streamlined operation but the average person on the street wouldn't have noticed any difference in their day-to-day lives. Any effects would have takes a while to filter through.

Now that you've voted 'no' I imagine that the same guy still won't feel any differences and the negative effects, if any, will take a while to materialise.

Zube

O'Morris wrote: »

Other EU countries should consider very carefully what the consequences would be if they decide to 'punish' us. Do they really want to turn the europhile elite in this country against them?

That's not what'll happen. When Ireland is first to lose a Commissioner in 2009, the Europhile elite will have its hand strengthened: "See? We told you Libertas was full of sh!ite and you wouldn't listen!"

drunkmonkey

ShooterSF wrote: »

We were warned by Biffo and co. that voting No would be a disaster and Europe would be very angry at us so.....

Thank you Shooter!!

The Government came out and said that quite clearly! Now if biffo and the boys are bull****ting us, they should be punished at the next election, Shamefull that our Governmemt would treat us with such little respect!!

Clare_Guy

Don't know what europe can do to us to "punish" us but the immediate consequences will be a weakening euro resulting in even higher fuels costs...

Giblet

Well what do you think will happen when Mr.Brian Cowen goes to Europe with proposal submissions?

BMH

The Hitcher wrote: »

Well what do you think will happen when Mr.Brian Cowen goes to Europe with proposal submissions?

He wont.

O'Morris

Zube wrote: »

That's not what'll happen. When Ireland is first to lose a Commissioner in 2009, the Europhile elite will have its hand strengthened: "See? We told you Libertas was full of sh!ite and you wouldn't listen!"

Libertas will be long forgotten about by the time that happens and so there will be no political capital to be gained from I-told-you-sos

Regardless of what people on the yes side say, there is still room for renegotiation over the commission. The results of this treaty give our politicians a mandate to take a firmer line in making sure Ireland has better representation in the commission.

Rb

Zube wrote: »

That's not what'll happen. When Ireland is first to lose a Commissioner in 2009, the Europhile elite will have its hand strengthened: "See? We told you Libertas was full of sh!ite and you wouldn't listen!"

The majority of people in this country wouldn't know what the role of the commissioner is, who our one is, the consequences of losing one etc. to cause them to vote no purely on the disbelief that we'll keep ours as a consequence.

drunkmonkey

The Hitcher wrote: »

Well what do you think will happen when Mr.Brian Cowen goes to Europe with proposal submissions?

Do you not think we should send Gerry Adams, He has a lot more experience in Negotiation deals for the Irish People!!

Ponster

The Hitcher wrote: »

Well what do you think will happen when Mr.Brian Cowen goes to Europe with proposal submissions?

Personally I don't see this happening. As other threads have pointed out, unlike Nice, there aren't specific points that we could possibly renegotiate.

Has anyone who called for a "no" vote ever said what they would change in the treaty should be given the opportunity ?

Giblet

A No vote is good for Sinn Fein, election time coming around next year, and the people sided with them. Probably the best reason to risk going against the rest of the government.

"You voted No with us, now vote for us!"

Rb

BMH wrote: »

You have a source that suggests other member states got €114bn from fishing in our waters?

Google.

Someone else posted an article on it recently, due to the amount of threads there are on it I'm not arsed searching for it to prove a well known point, so if you're interested have a look around Googles.

thecaptain

Punnish???????????????? SO you have already accepted the fact that the EU is a totalitarian enterprise???

At least that is something.

As for Punnishment, maybe they should cut all ties with Ireland, that would please me.

DishonestPikey

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Do you not think we should send Gerry Adams, He has a lot more experience in Negotiation deals for the Irish People!!

Do they negotiate with terrorists?

BMH

O'Morris wrote: »

Libertas will be long forgotten about by the time that happens and so there will be no political capital to be gained from I-told-you-sos

Regardless of what people on the yes side say, there is still room for renegotiation over the commission. The results of this treaty give our politicians a mandate to take a firmer line in making sure Ireland has better representation in the commission.

The Commissioner is not supposed to "represent". There are 27 portfolios at the moment, each of varying importance, some just made up as the extra 10 countries joined. If you thought Commissioners represented national interest, wouldn't you think there'd be discussion over who got the portfolio for culture and sport and who got the portfolio for competition? Losing the commissioner is a non-issue.

tricky D

We'll be punished into voting on it again until we get it 'right' a la Nice 2/Mugabe

BMH

Rb wrote: »

Google.

Someone else posted an article on it recently, due to the amount of threads there are on it I'm not arsed searching for it to prove a well known point, so if you're interested have a look around Googles.

I sincerely hope that this is not the "article" you made reference to:
http://craobhgalgreine.blogspot.com/2008/03/eu-destroys-irish-fisheries-craobh-gal.html

sink

O'Morris wrote: »

Libertas will be long forgotten about by the time that happens and so there will be no political capital to be gained from I-told-you-sos

Regardless of what people on the yes side say, there is still room for renegotiation over the commission. The results of this treaty give our politicians a mandate to take a firmer line in making sure Ireland has better representation in the commission.

There is a case to be made for deputy commissioners alright. But I personally don't think it will be better than 18 full commissioners

drunkmonkey

DishonestPikey wrote: »

Do they negotiate with terrorists?

Gerry Adams has fought all his life to Unite Ireland & better the livelyhoods of of your fellow citizens still under British rule - If that makes him a Terriost, so be it.......I'm glad he tried!!

Tell me, what have you done today to make yourself feel proud?

genericgoon

There will be no 'punishment' but this does weaken a lot of the good will Ireland has built up, one of its most vital reasons for its successes when negotiating. This rejection has caused a subtle reduction in Ireland's influence and only time will tell how damaging that may be.

Rhonda9000

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Loads of scare tactics by the Yes Side, Forecasting Doom & Gloom..

What happens now, What punishment should we expect from the EU or were they false threats used to try and bully is into voting Yes?

Oh here we go..

Whatever your bar stool perceptions about unprecedented 'punishment' and 'bullying', European politics is based on a tradition of fairness and cooperation and the prosperity of the whole. Europe did not 'punish and bully-into-voting-yes' the French and Dutch voters of two years ago.

"What happens now?"
* Not entirely certain. If certainty is your thing, the yes vote would have been somewhat more appropriate.

* Croatian accession in '09 delayed. Constrained by previous Nice Treaty.

* The treaty may be renegotiated and ratification restarted. Yippee it took 2 years of toing and froing since the French and Dutch rejected the Constitution. In all honesty, this does not seem a viable option any longer.

* Ratification may continue in the other member states yet to ratify - half a billion other Europeans have better things to be doing with their time than waiting for 3 million Irish voters that for the most part appeared to be voting for selfish things wholly outside the treaty (e.g. egg-on-face-of-domestic-politicians "punishment"!)

Frame it as "punishment" all you like, the fact is the current European Union structure is outdated and inefficient now and needs to be reformed radically. The reform process has been deadlocked once again. Truly I hope the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty (as is) in other countries continues and we are consulted again later. The power clingers will come to understand that Ireland must relinquish it's cushy 20th century advantages at some point to make equal room at the table for those that are in the same position we were in '73.

Morpheus

We can be punished in more ways thatn you think, other countries will be very unhappy with us, less than 2 million people have just turned down a vote that affected 500 million people. To be honest, you should be punished by law in ireland for not voting if you are registered. Its a bloody disgrace.

Gerry Adams was involved with Sinn Fein who were the political wing of a terrorist group, they supported for many years that same terrorist group's use of violence and murder of innocent people as a way of achieving something which many people "down here" couldnt be ar$ed about.

As far as im concerned, The Republic of Ireland should have acquired nuclear weapons, evacuated every non terrorist from the north, hacked along the border with a giant saw, shoved north ireland off into the atlantic and when it was far enough out to sea, nuked the place and all of its terrorists, problem solved.

Oh yeah,

Ive a solution: Ireland... the 51st State

stakey

They're not going to punish us, perhaps they'll nicely ask us to leave the EU and payback all the grants and loans we got within the next 30 days though

PrivateEye

As the United Irishmen said
""It is the union of minds which ought to bind these nation together.”

We know how the rest of Europe felt about Lisbon. They demanded referendums.
Democracy was denied. People across Europe are delighted.

I'm proud to be Irish today, proud to be European, proud of my town and proud of my people for rejecting this Treaty. It was a bad deal for workers, and the cheek of people like IBEC, or the smoked salmon socialists of Labour in telling workers to vote Yes on this issue was a disgrace.

Everyone who voted No- you spoke for 450 Million voiceless people.

Maith Sibh. VOTEZ NON.

Rhonda9000

PrivateEye wrote: »

Everyone who voted No- you spoke for 450 Million voiceless people.

A bit of a stretch equating your view -itself introjected from a sanctimonious journalist- with that of 450 million others.

Those that voted at all spoke just as equally; dont forget that.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Morphéus wrote: »

Ive a solution: Ireland... the 51st State

ick..

BMH

PrivateEye wrote: »

We know how the rest of Europe felt about Lisbon. They demanded referendums.
Democracy was denied. People across Europe are delighted.

I'm proud to be Irish today, proud to be European, proud of my town and proud of my people for rejecting this Treaty. It was a bad deal for workers, and the cheek of people like IBEC, or the smoked salmon socialists of Labour in telling workers to vote Yes on this issue was a disgrace.

Everyone who voted No- you spoke for 450 Million voiceless people.

Maith Sibh. VOTEZ NON.

I saw very little resistance to the lack of referenda in other countries, they seemed to have the sense to leave it up to the people that understood. And, for like the 50th time, the EU couldn't force them to hold referenda, so it really isn't an issue to do with the treaty itself.
Labour are realistic left-wing socialists. The only main trade union to oppose Lisbon was Unite.

Donkey Kong

* Ratification may continue in the other member states yet to ratify - half a billion other Europeans have better things to be doing with their time than waiting for 3 million Irish voters that for the most part appeared to be voting for selfish things wholly outside the treaty (e.g. egg-on-face-of-domestic-politicians "punishment"!)

pointless comment really. the goverment has recieved positive results in latest polls. why are we left to determine the fate for all of EU.

menoscemo

Can people stop turning this into a fishing thread?

Answering the OP: What will likely happen depends on whether or not the countries left to ratify this treaty, go ahead and do so. This is proabably in doubt as our vote might give grounds to some parties to vote against the treaty in their own national parlaiments. Many countries have rules that if treaties like this are not voted through by a high percentage in parliament, then said country must hold a referendum. Then we will see what the people in said country have to say about this.
For one I can see gordon Brown having trouble getting Lisbon ratified in the UK...

Now assuming all other countries do ratify the treaty: What will happen is that the powers that be in Europe will probably offer some carrots to the irish government e.g. a full time commissioner, more voting rights etc, then instruct them to go back with this new deal to their people and hold another referendum, which will probably pass and the Irish people will feel they have got one over on Europe.

jaqian

Morphéus wrote: »

Ive a solution: Ireland... the 51st State

No thanks. Europe is far more democratic.

Scofflaw

What will likely happen depends on whether or not the countries left to ratify this treaty, go ahead and do so.

They are doing so. The Dutch are going ahead with their ratification, and the UK are going ahead with theirs.


cordially,
Scofflaw

menoscemo

Scofflaw wrote: »

They are doing so. The Dutch are going ahead with their ratification, and the UK are going ahead with theirs.


cordially,
Scofflaw

What I meant to say is wether they succeed in ratifying it. My mistake, sorry.

raido9

menoscemo wrote: »

Now assuming all other countries do ratify the treaty: What will happen is that the powers that be in Europe will probably offer some carrots to the irish government e.g. a full time commissioner, more voting rights etc, then instruct them to go back with this new deal to their people and hold another referendum, which will probably pass and the Irish people will feel they have got one over on Europe.

Surely if they do this they will have to ratify the treaty in other countries again, as it woul be a different treaty to the one they agreed on.