[Referendum] Galway voter's views as capured by the BBC

cornbb

BBC News are running a front page story on the referendum. Their "In Pictures" piece is based in Galway, thought you might like to see if you can see any familiar faces

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/08/europe_irish_referendum/html/1.stm

Here's the story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7449313.stm

Vote yes

July

cornbb wrote: »

Vote yes

Can you direct me to somewhere (website) that may lead me to believe that 'Yes' is the best option?

Or can anyone lead me to a good 'No' site?

I'm only starting to do my 'web' homework on the whole thing now. All newspaper/tv/radio debate up to now has just confused me. Tbh the 'yes' side seems vague to me at this moment in time..

cornbb

July wrote: »

Can you direct me to somewhere (website) that may lead me to believe that 'Yes' is the best option?

Or can anyone lead me to a good 'No' site?

I'm only starting to do my 'web' homework on the whole thing now. All newspaper/tv/radio debate up to now has just confused me. Tbh the 'yes' side seems vague to me at this moment in time..

Don't look for a "Yes" or a "No" site, look for unbiased facts. A fact is a fact. Read the first link in my signature: http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/. Its from the Referendum Commissioners, they are the closest you are guaranteed to get to an unbiased condensation of the treaty. Read the facts and don't let scaremongering or soundbytes on posters get to you. Also have a read of some of the threads in the European Union forum (Soc -> Politics)

Edit: if you do want to hear arguments for voting yes, read this [pdf document]. Its from Fianna Fail (who I don't really like at all at all) but it does contain honest, concrete reasons to vote yes. You'll be hard pressed to find honest literature from the No side...

July

cornbb wrote: »

http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/

Ah ya, that's the one from the tv ads, off I go so.. Thanks!

pencil

Read as much as you can to try to form an opinion, I've been doing it since Monday and am still in two mind as what to vote.


One conclusion I have come to is this Libertas Crowd are VERY VERY shady. After two days reading I'm open to all opinins but theirs:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055311575

kraggy

Emer from Roscommon is fairly cute.

Sherifu

Nobody familiar but some nice city shots.

Aurora Borealis

Good god how small is Galway!?!
Know four in it.

Zzippy

cornbb wrote: »

Edit: if you do want to hear arguments for voting yes, read this [pdf document]. Its from Fianna Fail (who I don't really like at all at all) but it does contain honest, concrete reasons to vote yes. You'll be hard pressed to find honest literature from the No side...

Honesty from Fianna Fail. Now that would be a first!



Vote no!

cornbb

Zzippy wrote: »

Honesty from Fianna Fail. Now that would be a first!

I agree, it would! But in this case I'd be more inclined to trust the 90% of the parties and TDs that were voted to the Dáil than the anarchists, the terrorists, the fundamentalists and the shady US military contractors...

biko

cornbb wrote: »

You'll be hard pressed to find honest literature from the No side...

OP, These are some arguments for voting No. Decide for yourself and don't listen to cornbbs tactics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jg-qzJ-L_A

This self-amending treaty is a treaty to end all treaties. If Ireland votes Yes, there will be no need for any treaty referendums... ever!


BTW, I want my tax money, spent by the government to persuade me to vote yes, back!

Sherifu

Thank God this shit ends today.

cornbb

biko wrote: »

This self-amending treaty is a treaty to end all treaties. If Ireland votes Yes, there will be no need for any treaty referendums... ever!

It's hardly "self amending" when any European government has the power to veto changes that previously required a referendum. The democratically-elected European heads of government (European council) will have the power to both push through changes and veto any changes. The facts are outlined here:

Proposed Changes - Power to Change the Treaties

At present the Treaties governing the EU are amended only by the Member States agreeing to an amending treaty which must then be approved by the Member States in accordance with their own constitutional traditions. In almost all cases this involves parliamentary approval. In some cases, for example in Ireland, a referendum may be required.

The Lisbon Treaty now proposes to give the European Council (Heads of Government) the power to propose changes to certain parts of the governing Treaties. Any such changes cannot increase the competence of the EU. Any such proposals must be agreed unanimously by the European Council. This means that any national government may veto such a proposal. If the European Council does agree a proposed change, then in order for it to come into effect, it must be ratified by the Member States in accordance with their own constitutional traditions. This may require a referendum in Ireland as happens at present.

The Lisbon Treaty also proposes to give the European Council the power to amend the Treaties so as to allow Qualified Majority Voting to operate in certain areas where unanimity is now required. It will also give them the power to apply the Ordinary Legislative Procedure in certain areas where a Special Legislative Procedure applies at present. Any such proposals must be agreed unanimously by the European Council.

This means that any national government may veto such a proposal. If the European Council does agree a proposed change, any national parliament may prevent these changes coming into effect. Under the proposed amendment to the Constitution of Ireland the approval of the Dáil and Seanad will be required for Ireland to agree to such proposed changes. Such changes would not require a referendum in Ireland.

The power to change from unanimity to Qualified Majority Voting or from the Special Legislative Procedure to a Ordinary Legislative Procedure does not extend to military and defence issues.

It could apply, for example, to taxation where unanimity is required at present. However as outlined earlier in this website, any such proposed change could be vetoed by the Irish government.

The No campaign is again trying to whip up an image of the scary "eurocrat" out to get us. EU laws are composed and approved by our elected representatives, not shady characters out to get us. In fact if the treaty is passed, the Dail and our directly-elected MEPs will have more power than before.

BTW, I want my tax money, spent by the government to persuade me to vote yes, back!

Your tax money wasn't spent on any campaign, FF, FG, Labour did not fund their campaigns with public money.

biko

cornbb wrote: »

It's hardly "self amending" when any European government has the power to veto changes that previously required a referendum. The democratically-elected European heads of government (European council) will have the power to both push through changes and veto any changes. The facts are outlined here


This means that any national government may veto such a proposal. If the European Council does agree a proposed change, any national parliament may prevent these changes coming into effect. Under the proposed amendment to the Constitution of Ireland the approval of the Dáil and Seanad will be required for Ireland to agree to such proposed changes. Such changes would not require a referendum in Ireland.

This is not the last referendum in Ireland?

cornbb

biko wrote: »

This is not the last referendum in Ireland?

Not true. Here's the same text again:

Proposed Changes - Power to Change the Treaties

At present the Treaties governing the EU are amended only by the Member States agreeing to an amending treaty which must then be approved by the Member States in accordance with their own constitutional traditions. In almost all cases this involves parliamentary approval. In some cases, for example in Ireland, a referendum may be required.

The Lisbon Treaty now proposes to give the European Council (Heads of Government) the power to propose changes to certain parts of the governing Treaties. Any such changes cannot increase the competence of the EU. Any such proposals must be agreed unanimously by the European Council. This means that any national government may veto such a proposal. If the European Council does agree a proposed change, then in order for it to come into effect, it must be ratified by the Member States in accordance with their own constitutional traditions. This may require a referendum in Ireland as happens at present.

http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/lisbon_treaty_changes_gov.html

Bass Cadet

Sherifu wrote: »

Thank God this shit ends today.

It's only just starting!! :pac:

axiom32

The parliaments may send a “reasoned opinion” to the EU institutions on whether draft legislation complies with the principle of subsidiarity. There is also a Protocol on subsidiarity which requires that draft legislative proposals are justified on the basis of subsidiarity and proportionality.

wasn' doing to badly till i got to this bit which confuses me on the next bit
anybody unterstand the term "principle of subsidiarity"

dloob

axiom32 wrote: »

The parliaments may send a “reasoned opinion” to the EU institutions on whether draft legislation complies with the principle of subsidiarity. There is also a Protocol on subsidiarity which requires that draft legislative proposals are justified on the basis of subsidiarity and proportionality.

wasn' doing to badly till i got to this bit which confuses me on the next bit
anybody unterstand the term "principle of subsidiarity"

I believe it means that a larger body should not carry out things that can be done by a smaller body.
So in this case the EU should not draft legislation that the member states can handle on their own.

Mars Bar

It would be my first time to vote but like most 18 year olds, I haven't a clue. So I am going to stay at home listening to Meat Loaf...
If we could find someone neutral who could give us the pro's and the con's in a nice verbal manner rather than a "VOTE NO/VOTE YES coz we said so", then I might have bothered my arse to do it.

biko

mars bar wrote: »

It would be my first time to vote but like most 18 year olds, I haven't a clue. So I am going to stay at home listening to Meat Loaf...
If we could find someone neutral who could give us the pro's and the con's in a nice verbal manner rather than a "VOTE NO/VOTE YES coz we said so", then I might have bothered my arse to do it.

The best site would probably be http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/
Read that and make a decision, be it Yes or No.

cornbb

mars bar wrote: »

It would be my first time to vote but like most 18 year olds, I haven't a clue. So I am going to stay at home listening to Meat Loaf...
If we could find someone neutral who could give us the pro's and the con's in a nice verbal manner rather than a "VOTE NO/VOTE YES coz we said so", then I might have bothered my arse to do it.

Good on you for abstaining rather than voting no if you don't know the issues.

If you do want to learn more, its difficult to get an neutral explanation of the pros and cons. The best thing to do is listen to the facts and interpret them yourself. Check out the "read this" and "watch this" links in my sig for decent, unbiased explanations of the key points from the Referendum Commissioners and RTE. Both of these bodies are considered neutral.

Edit: biko beat me to it

axiom32

cornbb wrote: »

unbiased explanations of the key points from the Referendum Commissioners and RTE. Both of these bodies are considered neutral.

RTE unbiased are they not a semi state body and therefore adhere to the goverments way of thinking so as to get budgets to allow them to produce the ****e that is fair city etc etc
the same RTE that wouldn't let that doctor have his say on the Late Late Show, the same RTE that let Beverly Cooper "my dads a crook" Flynn off paying back the money she owed them and then she gets back in to fianna fail, the same RTE that turned its back on the genius that was Dermot Morgan (rip) cos he was ripping the piss out of the then government (google Scratch Saturday still hillarious)

cornbb

axiom32 wrote: »

RTE unbiased are they not a semi state body and therefore adhere to the goverments way of thinking so as to get budgets to allow them to produce the ****e that is fair city etc etc
the same RTE that wouldn't let that doctor have his say on the Late Late Show, the same RTE that let Beverly Cooper "my dads a crook" Flynn off paying back the money she owed them and then she gets back in to fianna fail, the same RTE that turned its back on the genius that was Dermot Morgan (rip) cos he was ripping the piss out of the then government (google Scratch Saturday still hillarious)

The judiciary are appointed by the government and they are unbiased. In fact they often make decisions which go against the government's will. I'd be obliged if you could show me an instance of where RTE have displayed any bias during this referendum campaign. Or if you could give us a link to information that is at least as neutral as the Referendum Commission or RTE.

[off-topic] Sorry I haven't replied to your PMs about Cubase stuff, its on my to-do list...

po0k

I voted no because what is proposed in the Lisbon Treaty is not how I feel the EU could best be run.

The fact that all of this doesn't actually matter a fscking jot because it's going to go ahead regardless of the result of our referendum enrages me.

This is filthy politics at it's worst.
The benefits of Lisbon that are being promoted are overshadowed by the negatives.
One common tactic I see from both sides is the use of fear.

Be not afraid.

If the remaining 26 ratify the treaty, it will expose how far got the rot in Europe has spread.

The end result of this treaty being ratified will be a major increase in police and military powers without consultation with the people it is supposed to protect.

The lack of wide-scale public consultation on these issues is the issue, not because of the work involved, but because most people who cherish life would balk were the full ramifications of the treaty laid out for them.

This is a classic bait and switch, with Ireland being setup as the patsie when the ECB starts to put the squeeze on the rest of europe.

Here comes our Winter of Discontent.

axiom32

i only mentioned RTE as been unbiased based on the fact they are what they are a semi state body relient on handouts and the license fee. In the past they have shown to pander to the goverment of the day.
But in saying that they gave equal time for each side to air their views and put forward argument and counter argument which is what i would expect so i cant find any bias on this occasion .....
As for the commission, as fact based as it is it still makes little sense too those of us with a right to vote but no idea what is right to vote


(off topic)no worries on the cubase stuff kinda sorted it

Mars Bar

Well I didn't vote. Didn't know what to vote for and I had a Biology exam for the L.C so I had more pressing matters on my mind that would influence my life more directly than the Lisbon Treaty.

Oh and the whole Galway Advertiser in the centres thing! Typical.