What the Papers Say (around europe)

mike65

A few links to guage the mood

http://blogs.ft.com/brusselsblog/2008/06/good-for-him-bad-for-us-ganleys-no-campaign-focuses-on-france/

http://www.liberation.fr/actualite/monde/330987.FR.php

http://www.faz.net/s/Rub99C3EECA60D84C08AD6B3E60C4EA807F/Doc~E0DFDE8D801B746A4932A673D5B5A9CBE~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article4107355.ece

http://www.euractiv.com/en/future-eu/irish-guillotine-lisbon/article-173207

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-mysterious-mr-no-843559.html

http://www.france24.com/20080531-referendum-eu-reform-treaty-simplified-Lisbon-ireland-europe-economy

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1410495.php/Irish_brace_for_knife-edge_vote_on_European_Unions_Lisbon_Treaty

Mike.

ShooterSF

Now if i was only mutli-lingual Though how dare the french interject in our decision making! Their laws mean their elected officials decide whether to ratify the treaty or not. Our's says the Irish people have to. We didn't stick our nose in their decision making why should they in ours. At the risk of getting emotional **** you French govenment we make our own decisions we're not ****ing Senegal (Apologies if they actually do blood is just boiling reading that)

Scofflaw

ShooterSF wrote: »

Now if i was only mutli-lingual Though how dare the french interject in our decision making! Their laws mean their elected officials decide whether to ratify the treaty or not. Our's says the Irish people have to. We didn't stick our nose in their decision making why should they in ours. At the risk of getting emotional **** you French govenment we make our own decisions we're not ****ing Senegal (Apologies if they actually do blood is just boiling reading that)

So you feel that the rest of Europe has no right to comment amongst themselves on our referendum, when the result affects them all?

cordially,
Scofflaw

ShooterSF

Scofflaw wrote: »

So you feel that the rest of Europe has no right to comment amongst themselves on our referendum, when the result affects them all?

cordially,
Scofflaw

No. They ratified by their proccesses now leave us to ours. If we agree all well and good if not tough tits to them! Not as if he hoped we had a large turnout or anything he tried to influence something that has nothing to do them - not the treaty but our decision if we're in favour or not.

is_that_so

Bet you can work this one out.

"einen Plan B gibt es nicht"

nesf

FT Video: http://www.ft.com/cms/af1f4356-e399-11dc-8799-0000779fd2ac.html?_i_referralObject=764644363&fromSearch=n

Ganley talks about Ireland being expelled while it doesn't have a commissioner?

Dinner

ShooterSF wrote: »

No. They ratified by their proccesses now leave us to ours. If we agree all well and good if not tough tits to them! Not as if he hoped we had a large turnout or anything he tried to influence something that has nothing to do them - not the treaty but our decision if we're in favour or not.

Do you feel the same way about the 'foreigners' posting here telling us to vote no?

ShooterSF

Arabel wrote: »

Do you feel the same way about the 'foreigners' posting here telling us to vote no?

To some point I empathise (sp?) with their general public who feel they should have (rightly or wrongly) got a direct say in both camps but still their place in OUR decision making is out of place. We're not voting whether it helps or hinders other countries in Europe their governments have decided that for them and that's their issue. We have to decide if we accept it. What annoyed me is that the setup in Europe is every country has to agree, France ratified it (by their own means) and now their trying to pressure us. That's bull, who's to say if it was just down to the government they wouldn't have used the same tactics....

DeVore

The tone of those pieces does seem very much "oh here we go again with the fnckin' irish. Ungrateful bunch of sod-tossers".

Sarkozy and Prodi have done more to make me consider the No vote then Ganley and Adams... though its wrong to decide on an emotional basis, but if ever I felt like lipservice was being paid, its always from those ****s.

DeV.

IRLConor

DeVore wrote: »

The tone of those pieces does seem very much "oh here we go again with the fnckin' irish. Ungrateful bunch of sod-tossers".

I can empathise with the people who worked to put together the treaty being frustrated with so many Irish voters saying they'll vote no for reasons which have nothing to do with the treaty.

I'll be pissed off at a no vote since I've spent so much time researching the way I'll vote. If I had been involved in the drafting of the treaty I'd be livid.

That said, I remember the UK getting way more stick in the 90s for their policies then and they've turned out OK for the most part.

DeVore wrote: »

Sarkozy [has] done more to make me consider the No vote...

There's something about him that rubs me up the wrong way too. To me, he comes across a a more smug, more polished version of Michael O'Leary. :eek:

Call Me Jimmy

ShooterSF wrote: »

No. They ratified by their proccesses now leave us to ours. If we agree all well and good if not tough tits to them! Not as if he hoped we had a large turnout or anything he tried to influence something that has nothing to do them - not the treaty but our decision if we're in favour or not.

lol you just said you don't think the French have the right to comment on our situation? In their newspapers you want positive discussion or no discussion at all, is that right?

Maybe Europe should fear us rather than the other way around!

ixtlan

Just skimming through the timesonline one... "It does nothing about the EU's notorious farm subsidies."

You can see here the problem with re-negotiation... Should we bring the CAP into the treaty and slash it to appease the UK?

Ix

darkman2

nesf wrote: »

FT Video: http://www.ft.com/cms/af1f4356-e399-11dc-8799-0000779fd2ac.html?_i_referralObject=764644363&fromSearch=n

Ganley talks about Ireland being expelled while it doesn't have a commissioner?

lol check out Ganley's bus!

VoidStarNull

DeVore wrote: »

Sarkozy and Prodi have done more to make me consider the No vote then Ganley and Adams... though its wrong to decide on an emotional basis, but if ever I felt like lipservice was being paid, its always from those ****s.

If we vote NO, it will be up to Sarkozy to figure out what to do next, since France will hold the EU presidency from July 1.

dlofnep

Scofflaw wrote: »

So you feel that the rest of Europe has no right to comment amongst themselves on our referendum, when the result affects them all?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Of course they have a right, and if there was more democracy within Europe then they wouldn't have to comment on ours, but rather - their own.

DeVore

Prodi's comments after the Nice referendum left me LIVID and I supported the Yes side then. Sarkozy is Micheal O'Leary gone all Parisien (the rest of the French are lovely people, mostly ). I wondered why he annoyed the **** out of me. Same stupid smug face on him.

Anyway, we should vote on the basis of the treaty not on what they say about us elsewhere.

DeV.

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

Of course they have a right, and if there was more democracy within Europe then they wouldn't have to comment on ours, but rather - their own.

Hmm. When you say "more democracy" what you actually mean is "more referendums".

They're commenting in much the same way we comment here on legislation going through the Dáil. They had parliamentary debates - not that anyone in Ireland bothered reporting on them.

I'm sorry. I simply don't buy the argument that referendums are the only form of real democracy, particularly when there's no popular movement in Europe in favour of them.

It's like claiming they should discuss things in English, to be more like us.

cordially,
Scofflaw

johnnyq

Read the comments on the Times Article they are very telling of the unhappiness of Irish voters.

sink

A decent article in der Spiegel from Germany but written in English.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,558893,00.html

johnnyq

Sink's Link wrote:

At best 250 of Ireland’s 4.2 million citizens have read the complete text, estimates Ireland’s European Commissioner Charlie McCreevy. Even he himself made do with a summary.

I think this says it all really, how do expect european citizens to engage with with a document highly complex at best and contradictory at worst.

dlofnep

Scofflaw wrote: »

Hmm. When you say "more democracy" what you actually mean is "more referendums".

Democracy is giving the power to the people. Not having referendums on major issues like the Lisbon Treaty is not democratic. So no, my original statement stands. Thank you.

nesf

dlofnep wrote: »

Democracy is giving the power to the people. Not having referendums on major issues like the Lisbon Treaty is not democratic. So no, my original statement stands. Thank you.

Referendums aren't the only, or even the best way, to deal with issues in a democracy.

johnnyq

nesf wrote: »

Referendums aren't the only, or even the best way, to deal with issues in a democracy.

and Voting yes to maintaining unelected commissioners and bringing in more unelected figureheads is?

dlofnep

nesf wrote: »

Referendums aren't the only, or even the best way, to deal with issues in a democracy.

And muting the say of the people is a better form? Where required, referendums are a fundemental aspect of democracy. Allowing political figureheads to control the future of the people without the say of the people on large issues like the Lisbon Treaty is not democracy.

ixtlan

johnnyq wrote: »

and Voting yes to maintaining unelected commissioners and bringing in more unelected figureheads is?

In an ideal world they would be directly elected by a cross-European poll, but in the Europe we have now, with so little interest in Ireland for what politicians are doing in other countries it would be impractical.

The obcession with "our" commissioner proves this point. The commissioners are supposed to represent the EU as a whole but are being portrayed as "critical for Irish interests". If the EU president were elected, don't you think it would be "critical" for them to be Irish? For the French it would be critical that they were French and so on.

I do see the dilemma here, but feel the no side does not. Democratically elected officials are good, but until we look at a French commissioner as representing our views as well as an Irish one, it's hardly likely to satisfy the Irish voters to find French/German/Uk presidents get elected.

Ix

Scofflaw

dlofnep wrote: »

And muting the say of the people is a better form? Where required, referendums are a fundemental aspect of democracy. Allowing political figureheads to control the future of the people without the say of the people on large issues like the Lisbon Treaty is not democracy.

There is no call across those countries which do not ordinarily use referendums to have referendums. There were organised protests for referendums weekend before last - they produced handfuls of people across the EU (10 in France, 7 in Holland).

Democracy is rule according to the wishes of the people - the people usually being defined as the "demos", or the political grouping of people.

If there is no popular call for referendums in those countries not having referendums by the citizens of those countries, then your argument that they should have referendums is simply a way of saying that you know better than them, and that our democracy is better than their democracy. It's a terrible argument, and leads to unpleasant results.

I've said this before in another thread - we are used to voting in complex and divisive referendums on hot-button issues like divorce and abortion. We are used to the screaming matches and lying that referendums involve. Other countries are not, and many of them apparently regard the process as both undignified and stupid. That is their choice, and it's just as valid as ours.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ShooterSF

Scofflaw wrote: »

There is no call across those countries which do not ordinarily use referendums to have referendums. There were organised protests for referendums weekend before last - they produced handfuls of people across the EU (10 in France, 7 in Holland).

Democracy is rule according to the wishes of the people - the people usually being defined as the "demos", or the political grouping of people.

If there is no popular call for referendums in those countries not having referendums by the citizens of those countries, then your argument that they should have referendums is simply a way of saying that you know better than them, and that our democracy is better than their democracy. It's a terrible argument, and leads to unpleasant results.

I've said this before in another thread - we are used to voting in complex and divisive referendums on hot-button issues like divorce and abortion. We are used to the screaming matches and lying that referendums involve. Other countries are not, and many of them apparently regard the process as both undignified and stupid. That is their choice, and it's just as valid as ours.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Exactly. And it's when they start sticking their noses in our valid choice where they don't belong it becomes irratating. If they don't use referendums fair enough we shouldn't stick our 2 cents in as Scofflaw says and undermine them but the reverse is true as our proccess DOES use referendums so they can kindly keep their opinions and veiled threats to themselves and respect our processes!

*In best cartman voice* Respect my goddamn processes!!*

nesf

johnnyq wrote: »

and Voting yes to maintaining unelected commissioners and bringing in more unelected figureheads is?

Is what? My point was that decisions in democracies don't automatically need a referendum on them.

dlofnep wrote: »

And muting the say of the people is a better form? Where required, referendums are a fundemental aspect of democracy. Allowing political figureheads to control the future of the people without the say of the people on large issues like the Lisbon Treaty is not democracy.

The key part is "where required", should we have referendums or not on matters like these is open to debate, as can be seen by the political systems of the rest of Europe.

BMH

dlofnep wrote: »

Democracy is giving the power to the people. Not having referendums on major issues like the Lisbon Treaty is not democratic. So no, my original statement stands. Thank you.

I'd have to argue that Lisbon is not a major issue for the people, relative to the other bills that parliaments pass.